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From: <pau...@us...>
<pau...@us...> - 2009-01-09 10:10:11
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Hello list, Two points here: POINT ONE ========= The latest thing I've been working on in everydevel is changing the database structure for more normalisation. The good news is that this works. The bad news is that it is taking me longer than I thought partly because I've had to do a lot of thinking and partly because there is no one to bounce ideas off. These changes in the db layer have to have knock on effects. I'll give you an example: permissions. As you know permissions in everydevel have five types r, w, x, d, c and there are four user types for each permission: owner, group, other, guest. After my db redesign it is obvious that this is arbitrary and there could be more permission types and user types. It is also has become obvious that nodes can't continue to 'know' about their own permissions. Because to do so they'd also have to continue to 'know' about any 'usertype' nodes in the nodebase to which they belong. This means that each and every node would have to have some sort of aggregate behaviour as well as their standard behaviour. This of course is waaaay too complicated and indicates a design problem. The solution is to change Security.pm into an object class that negotiates permissions, or perhaps to make Security.pm a nodetype that has the job of negotiating access between the UI and the NodeBase. Anyway, the point is these knock on effects get a bit involved. POINT TWO ========= I'm not sure there's any point posting to this list any more, because I get barely any response and never any assistance .... then some smartarse wonders why things are going so slowly.... Nonetheless, I'd really like to create enthusiasm for everydevel. It is afterall one of the few CMS which are perl based in a world where PHP rules in the space. The question is how to create this enthusiasm and where. Experience suggests it isn't here. But where? Paul |
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From: <pau...@us...>
<pau...@us...> - 2009-01-22 23:14:35
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Hi Nate, Thanks for this.I've been thinking of forking for a while, not so much because Everydevel is linked to Everything2, but because it would stop me feeling constrained by the code base. It would also make version numbering easier. One of the reasons I haven't suggested a release is because the current version is pre-1.0, what should the next release be 2.0? But a name change and starting at version 0.01 would be easier. Also, it means I could host it on a git server. As for being better than Drupal, I actually think Everything is already better in the fact it is far more flexible. Drupal is easier for novices to get up and running with though. Cheers Paul Nathan Oostendorp wrote: > Hey Paul, > > To address point #2, I agree that this list is pretty dead. I'd would > encourage you to put these someplace public, like on a blog or > everydevel (of course still sitting under my desk without network until > the bastards at comcast fix our internet connection). This way people > can just reply as they want to, without being list subscribers. > > I also think if you're really interested in keeping it alive long term > you should consider "forking" or otherwise re-branding the project and > then either doing regular releases, or making it a micro-packaged > SVN-distributed project (ala ruby gems). "Everything Engine" has always > been a kind of an ad-hoc name, and i think most of the people that have > heard of it just associate it with Everything2, which I don't think is > what you're ultimately aiming for. I think you need to reframe the > fundamental pitch to say "HEY, WE'RE LIKE DRUPAL BUT PERL BUT ALSO > BETTER BECAUSE WE DO X AND Y AND Z", since CMSs are a dime a dozen now. > > If there's anything I can do, please let me know. > > --n > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:31 AM, pau...@us... wrote: > >> Hello list, >> >> Two points here: >> >> POINT ONE >> ========= >> >> The latest thing I've been working on in everydevel is changing the >> database structure for more normalisation. The good news is that this >> works. The bad news is that it is taking me longer than I thought >> partly because I've had to do a lot of thinking and partly because there >> is no one to bounce ideas off. >> >> These changes in the db layer have to have knock on effects. I'll give >> you an example: permissions. >> >> As you know permissions in everydevel have five types r, w, x, d, c and >> there are four user types for each permission: owner, group, other, >> guest. >> >> After my db redesign it is obvious that this is arbitrary and there >> could be more permission types and user types. >> >> It is also has become obvious that nodes can't continue to 'know' about >> their own permissions. Because to do so they'd also have to continue to >> 'know' about any 'usertype' nodes in the nodebase to which they belong. >> This means that each and every node would have to have some sort of >> aggregate behaviour as well as their standard behaviour. >> >> This of course is waaaay too complicated and indicates a design problem. >> >> The solution is to change Security.pm into an object class that >> negotiates permissions, or perhaps to make Security.pm a nodetype that >> has the job of negotiating access between the UI and the NodeBase. >> >> Anyway, the point is these knock on effects get a bit involved. >> >> >> POINT TWO >> ========= >> >> I'm not sure there's any point posting to this list any more, because >> I get barely any response and never any assistance .... then some >> smartarse wonders why things are going so slowly.... >> >> Nonetheless, I'd really like to create enthusiasm for everydevel. It is >> afterall one of the few CMS which are perl based in a world where PHP >> rules in the space. The question is how to create this enthusiasm and >> where. >> >> Experience suggests it isn't here. But where? >> >> Paul >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >> It is the best place to buy or sell services for >> just about anything Open Source. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Xq1LFB >> _______________________________________________ >> Everydevel-opers mailing list >> Eve...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/everydevel-opers > > > |
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From: Petruchio <pet...@pe...> - 2009-01-27 00:15:25
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First off, I think you should fork, rename, or fillet the project as you see fit... and I doubt anyone would disagree. You've been laboring in the wilderness on this for a long time, now; why you should feel constrained by the opinions of others (even if you were receiving any), I have no idea. > > On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:31 AM, pau...@us... wrote: > > > >> POINT TWO > >> ========= > >> > >> I'm not sure there's any point posting to this list any more, because > >> I get barely any response and never any assistance .... then some > >> smartarse wonders why things are going so slowly.... > >> > >> Nonetheless, I'd really like to create enthusiasm for everydevel. It is > >> afterall one of the few CMS which are perl based in a world where PHP > >> rules in the space. Not only are there few CMSes in Perl, there are few application in Perl. Perl people tend not to write end-user software; they write libraries, and they tinker with other people's libraries. PHP people, on the other hand, write applications, and have a wonderful attention to detail. One is inclined to say that this is because details are all most of them understand, but it's important to keep in mind that they're succeeding admirably even so. > >> The question is how to create this enthusiasm and where. > >> > >> Experience suggests it isn't here. But where? IMO, you put your finger on it here: > As for being better than Drupal, I actually think Everything is already > better in the fact it is far more flexible. Drupal is easier for > novices to get up and running with though. I think that to make this project popular would require a radical change in direction. Installation is unquestionably the biggest issue. Requiring Apache configuration or mod_perl is death. Even requiring shell access to get the thing running is unacceptable. If you got this to be as easy to install as WordPress, I think you'd find it was all downhill from there, and that popularity came easily. I also think it's very important that something like this look very pretty by default, and that it make it as easy as possible for the average user to do average-user tasks without configuration. But if you made it simple to install, you'd probably get other people to help with those goals. Where I think a CMS could kick the opposition's collective ass would be in fully automating the installation of updates, themes, and plugins. But architectural features don't matter much until there are users. That having been said, I can't say I'll be much help even if you take up my suggestions. But I admire your tenacity, and wish you well. -- Petruchio |
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From: <pau...@us...>
<pau...@us...> - 2009-01-23 12:38:43
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Hi Nate, Another question. "Everything Development, Inc" sounds like a registered corporation. Is it still a registered corporation, or was it dissolved? Cheers, Paul Nathan Oostendorp wrote: > Hey Paul, > > To address point #2, I agree that this list is pretty dead. I'd would > encourage you to put these someplace public, like on a blog or > everydevel (of course still sitting under my desk without network until > the bastards at comcast fix our internet connection). This way people > can just reply as they want to, without being list subscribers. > > I also think if you're really interested in keeping it alive long term > you should consider "forking" or otherwise re-branding the project and > then either doing regular releases, or making it a micro-packaged > SVN-distributed project (ala ruby gems). "Everything Engine" has always > been a kind of an ad-hoc name, and i think most of the people that have > heard of it just associate it with Everything2, which I don't think is > what you're ultimately aiming for. I think you need to reframe the > fundamental pitch to say "HEY, WE'RE LIKE DRUPAL BUT PERL BUT ALSO > BETTER BECAUSE WE DO X AND Y AND Z", since CMSs are a dime a dozen now. > > If there's anything I can do, please let me know. > > --n > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:31 AM, pau...@us... wrote: > >> Hello list, >> >> Two points here: >> >> POINT ONE >> ========= >> >> The latest thing I've been working on in everydevel is changing the >> database structure for more normalisation. The good news is that this >> works. The bad news is that it is taking me longer than I thought >> partly because I've had to do a lot of thinking and partly because there >> is no one to bounce ideas off. >> >> These changes in the db layer have to have knock on effects. I'll give >> you an example: permissions. >> >> As you know permissions in everydevel have five types r, w, x, d, c and >> there are four user types for each permission: owner, group, other, >> guest. >> >> After my db redesign it is obvious that this is arbitrary and there >> could be more permission types and user types. >> >> It is also has become obvious that nodes can't continue to 'know' about >> their own permissions. Because to do so they'd also have to continue to >> 'know' about any 'usertype' nodes in the nodebase to which they belong. >> This means that each and every node would have to have some sort of >> aggregate behaviour as well as their standard behaviour. >> >> This of course is waaaay too complicated and indicates a design problem. >> >> The solution is to change Security.pm into an object class that >> negotiates permissions, or perhaps to make Security.pm a nodetype that >> has the job of negotiating access between the UI and the NodeBase. >> >> Anyway, the point is these knock on effects get a bit involved. >> >> >> POINT TWO >> ========= >> >> I'm not sure there's any point posting to this list any more, because >> I get barely any response and never any assistance .... then some >> smartarse wonders why things are going so slowly.... >> >> Nonetheless, I'd really like to create enthusiasm for everydevel. It is >> afterall one of the few CMS which are perl based in a world where PHP >> rules in the space. The question is how to create this enthusiasm and >> where. >> >> Experience suggests it isn't here. But where? >> >> Paul >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >> It is the best place to buy or sell services for >> just about anything Open Source. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Xq1LFB >> _______________________________________________ >> Everydevel-opers mailing list >> Eve...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/everydevel-opers > > > |
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From: Nathan O. <noo...@co...> - 2009-01-23 15:55:37
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It's been dissolved since 2001, all the assets went back to the parent company, Blockstackers Intergalactic LLC --n On Jan 23, 2009, at 7:38 AM, pau...@us... wrote: > Hi Nate, > > Another question. "Everything Development, Inc" sounds like a > registered corporation. Is it still a registered corporation, or > was it > dissolved? > > Cheers, > > Paul > > Nathan Oostendorp wrote: >> Hey Paul, >> >> To address point #2, I agree that this list is pretty dead. I'd >> would >> encourage you to put these someplace public, like on a blog or >> everydevel (of course still sitting under my desk without network >> until >> the bastards at comcast fix our internet connection). This way >> people >> can just reply as they want to, without being list subscribers. >> >> I also think if you're really interested in keeping it alive long >> term >> you should consider "forking" or otherwise re-branding the project >> and >> then either doing regular releases, or making it a micro-packaged >> SVN-distributed project (ala ruby gems). "Everything Engine" has >> always >> been a kind of an ad-hoc name, and i think most of the people that >> have >> heard of it just associate it with Everything2, which I don't think >> is >> what you're ultimately aiming for. I think you need to reframe the >> fundamental pitch to say "HEY, WE'RE LIKE DRUPAL BUT PERL BUT ALSO >> BETTER BECAUSE WE DO X AND Y AND Z", since CMSs are a dime a dozen >> now. >> >> If there's anything I can do, please let me know. >> >> --n >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:31 AM, pau...@us... >> wrote: >> >>> Hello list, >>> >>> Two points here: >>> >>> POINT ONE >>> ========= >>> >>> The latest thing I've been working on in everydevel is changing the >>> database structure for more normalisation. The good news is that >>> this >>> works. The bad news is that it is taking me longer than I thought >>> partly because I've had to do a lot of thinking and partly because >>> there >>> is no one to bounce ideas off. >>> >>> These changes in the db layer have to have knock on effects. I'll >>> give >>> you an example: permissions. >>> >>> As you know permissions in everydevel have five types r, w, x, d, >>> c and >>> there are four user types for each permission: owner, group, other, >>> guest. >>> >>> After my db redesign it is obvious that this is arbitrary and there >>> could be more permission types and user types. >>> >>> It is also has become obvious that nodes can't continue to 'know' >>> about >>> their own permissions. Because to do so they'd also have to >>> continue to >>> 'know' about any 'usertype' nodes in the nodebase to which they >>> belong. >>> This means that each and every node would have to have some sort of >>> aggregate behaviour as well as their standard behaviour. >>> >>> This of course is waaaay too complicated and indicates a design >>> problem. >>> >>> The solution is to change Security.pm into an object class that >>> negotiates permissions, or perhaps to make Security.pm a nodetype >>> that >>> has the job of negotiating access between the UI and the NodeBase. >>> >>> Anyway, the point is these knock on effects get a bit involved. >>> >>> >>> POINT TWO >>> ========= >>> >>> I'm not sure there's any point posting to this list any more, >>> because >>> I get barely any response and never any assistance .... then some >>> smartarse wonders why things are going so slowly.... >>> >>> Nonetheless, I'd really like to create enthusiasm for everydevel. >>> It is >>> afterall one of the few CMS which are perl based in a world where >>> PHP >>> rules in the space. The question is how to create this enthusiasm >>> and >>> where. >>> >>> Experience suggests it isn't here. But where? >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. >>> It is the best place to buy or sell services for >>> just about anything Open Source. >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Xq1LFB >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Everydevel-opers mailing list >>> Eve...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/everydevel-opers >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This SF.net email is sponsored by: > SourcForge Community > SourceForge wants to tell your story. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword > _______________________________________________ > Everydevel-opers mailing list > Eve...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/everydevel-opers |
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From: paul_the_nomad <pau...@us...> - 2009-01-23 16:26:11
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On Friday 23 January 2009 15:55:31 Nathan Oostendorp wrote: > It's been dissolved since 2001, all the assets went back to the parent > company, Blockstackers Intergalactic LLC > Ah, so what does that mean for the copyright notice in the Eveydevel files? Should it be changed? Or does the copyright go into limbo? |
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From: Nathan O. <noo...@co...> - 2009-01-23 17:08:11
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copyright probably should just get moved to Blockstackers --n On Jan 23, 2009, at 11:26 AM, paul_the_nomad wrote: > On Friday 23 January 2009 15:55:31 Nathan Oostendorp wrote: >> It's been dissolved since 2001, all the assets went back to the >> parent >> company, Blockstackers Intergalactic LLC >> > > Ah, so what does that mean for the copyright notice in the Eveydevel > files? > Should it be changed? Or does the copyright go into limbo? > |
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From: paul_the_nomad <pau...@us...> - 2009-01-23 17:43:57
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On Friday 23 January 2009 17:08:01 Nathan Oostendorp wrote: > copyright probably should just get moved to Blockstackers > > --n Hmmm, this makes it complicated. When, chromatic did his original changes for the OnLamp articles, he changed the copyright notice to 2003. But this doesn't make much sense because Everything Development corporation didn't exist. My guess is that these changes are actually copyright chromatic. My changes couldn't be assigned to Everything Development because a) it didn't exist and b) I didn't agree to assign my copyright. The reason I'm asking is that if I host a fork at Savannah or gna.org they are very particular about a clean copyright. Do you know how I can contact blockstackers to ask someone about it? Thanks Paul |
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From: Nate O. <noo...@co...> - 2009-01-23 18:35:23
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Honestly, just go ahead and assign the copyright however you want -- if we need to xfer it from Blockstackers I can handle that, either by getting us to assign copyright to me personally or whatever. IIRC under artistic the copyright is on the code AS the everything engine. Someone else can take the code call it "my cool webframework" and have a copyright on that. --n paul_the_nomad wrote: > On Friday 23 January 2009 17:08:01 Nathan Oostendorp wrote: > >> copyright probably should just get moved to Blockstackers >> >> --n >> > > > Hmmm, this makes it complicated. > > When, chromatic did his original changes for the OnLamp articles, he changed > the copyright notice to 2003. But this doesn't make much sense because > Everything Development corporation didn't exist. My guess is that these > changes are actually copyright chromatic. > > My changes couldn't be assigned to Everything Development because a) it didn't > exist and b) I didn't agree to assign my copyright. > > The reason I'm asking is that if I host a fork at Savannah or gna.org they are > very particular about a clean copyright. > > Do you know how I can contact blockstackers to ask someone about it? > > Thanks > > Paul > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This SF.net email is sponsored by: > SourcForge Community > SourceForge wants to tell your story. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword > _______________________________________________ > Everydevel-opers mailing list > Eve...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/everydevel-opers > |
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From: chromatic <chr...@wg...> - 2009-01-30 22:54:22
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On Friday 23 January 2009 09:43:51 paul_the_nomad wrote: > When, chromatic did his original changes for the OnLamp articles, he > changed the copyright notice to 2003. But this doesn't make much sense > because Everything Development corporation didn't exist. My guess is that > these changes are actually copyright chromatic. I'm happy to assign my changes to anyone willing to give them a good home. -- c |
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From: paul_the_nomad <pau...@us...> - 2009-02-11 23:20:43
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Hello all, On Friday 30 January 2009 21:31:33 chromatic wrote: > On Friday 23 January 2009 09:43:51 paul_the_nomad wrote: > > When, chromatic did his original changes for the OnLamp articles, he > > changed the copyright notice to 2003. But this doesn't make much sense > > because Everything Development corporation didn't exist. My guess is that > > these changes are actually copyright chromatic. > > I'm happy to assign my changes to anyone willing to give them a good home. > Thanks chromatic. I think the best thing to do is speak to the people at Savanah and see what they think. And on a different matter: I've set up a git repository here for anyone who is interested: git://github.com/pault/omnia.git Thanks Paul |
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