Re: [Envolution-devel] I resigne from envolution

[<Chr...@t-...>]

Am Die, 2003-08-05 um 00.00 schrieb Scott Kindley:
> On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 16:09, Christoph Schwaeppe wrote:
> > No, no, it's to less! I'm writing this, because I don't want to get this
> > desaster bigger. Please read more... 
> 
> Im reading and listening!
> 
> > 
> > Am Mon, 2003-08-04 um 19.10 Scott Kindley wrote in reply to gagl:
> > > We learned from the meetig on Aug 2 that our membership wants written
> > > guidelines and rules to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again.
> > I have read that log completly and what is called "our membership or
> > "our community" has been about 8, maybe all in all 10 people over 3 or 3
> > 1/2 hours, but never more than 4 or five people at a time at least and
> > mostly 3 people who claimed "Organization of the Internation Support
> > Sites" in the last half hour.
> 
> Not clear what you meant here, but the meeting was announced in advance
> and plenty of time was provided to allow people to attend. 
> 
Not for me and others also (WindMeUp, Naphta...), believe me! And
maximum 8 visitors can only be a part of the community, but not the
community.

> Consider that guidelines, rules, API's, RFC's, roadmaps,and other formal
> statements of policy and direction ARE writen down in buisness,
> entertainment, and yes even sotftware development it is inconcevable
> that you would assert that we should leave it all up to trust or
> confidence. The very fact there are problems now proves that leaving it
> up to confidence or experience does NOT work.
Please for my understanding explain me, what didn't work!

> > We shouldn't start to separate people by who has confidence or not,
> > selfunderstanding language, nationality etc. We have to respect it!
> > Right?!
> > 
> 
> I can assure you that is not a quote from me!
This is a question.

> > > No PM is the center of Envolution! Thats a fact! The center of
> > > Envolution is it's entire community not just one person.
> > And the communities center IS the PM in order of the founder board, so
> > easy :)
> > 
> > > >  We call it coordination and organization if needed: that's what a PM
> > > > has to do. 
> > > 
> > > Yes thats right...and that is what ApathyBoy is trying to do.
> > Not personal, the difficulty is, that it looks to most people I know,
> > like an overtaking. Sorry for that, but now only very well understood
> > diplomacy can track the cow from ice, as we call it in germany.;)
> > 
> 
> How could anything have been "overtaken" when it was voluntarily given
> to me? I tried to convince Max to staty and just name Stefan the
> PM...but Max said he didn't want to do that. He insisted that all the
> domains and the PM job be handled by someone else so he could do his own
> projects.
Yes, I heard that this hasn't been a plesant time. But I discrpt the
situation we now have.

> > > I am sure your statistic are quite active. But envo.it is only part of
> > > the whole...not the whole itself. And as such no single part of the
> > > community should dictate to the rest what happens.
> > Never I have had the feeling, that eNvo.it dictates or trys to dictate
> > the rest. No diplomatic words of wisdom!
> > 
> 
> We simply disagree then.
No problem!

> > > Respect was not demonstrated to ApathyBoy in the first days of this
> > > change. If a community wants to talk about respect they need to be
> > > prepared to start showing it as well.
> > > 
> > > Some members of envo.it are on a campaign to slander ApathyBoy by
> > > calling him a Nazi and one individual called him Hitler. While you may
> > > think this is proper lanaguage in your culture you seem to have
> > > forgotten that your culture is not the only one out there. In most
> > > societies calling someone a Nazi or Hilter is unforgivable.
> > I'm from Germany, ok?! And this foolish propaganda, which is coming up
> > inflationaryly is in no way acceptable for any society and any human
> > beeing. And we shouldn't use this expression to close with any eNvo
> > domain or support site or what else. (Just a few words praying for
> > diplomatic wisdom ;) )
> > 
> 
> I am glad to see that you do not approve of using those terms. However
> those terms ARE being used on envolution.it and the use of those foolish
> and evil terms is being allowed to continue by the webmaster of
> Envolution.it ... even after he has been informed of it and shown the
> URL's containing the offensive remarks.
> 
> Until those remarks are removed and the webmaster of envoltuion.it
> enforces a policy preventing the characterization of ANY people as
> Nazi's or Hitler there will be no recognition of envolution.it's
> existance on Envolution Project servers.
> 
> The URL showing at least one instance of ApathyBoy being characterized
> as both a Nazi and Hitler is here:
> 
> http://www.envolution.it/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=338&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
> 
Hm, I disagree with this expessions also, I said before, but what I also
see is, that prominent members of envolution damned that (with my poor
italian). I prefere public damning of that, than a fool, who
assassinates in the dark.

On the other hand the new admin message on eNvolution.com doesn't
influence to much reliance, specially if I would be a newbie "Whow,
what's going on there behind the walls"

> > > > This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how
> > > > things work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works
> > > > and he showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and
> > > > then programming the future.
> > Wouldn't it have been better, he would have been seen it before? Why You
> > didn't make a temporary solution for Max designation?
> > 
> 
> I don't undertand what you mean by temporary solution for Max
> designation?
Yes, until all informations are collected, two or three weeks. It's
vacation time.
> 
> > > First of all ApathyBoy knows exactly how evnolution works. He was a
> > > primary developer of Envoulution from the beginning. And in fact was at
> > > one time jjst prior to Max becoming the PM being considered by all of us
> > > to be the lead developer back then! Since I created the election process
> > > and Max, Brian, and Brandon approved of it I no what I am talking about.
> > Ok, no doubt, I don't no anything about that, I believe it. But we
> > stated in our vision and road map
> > http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=listpages&subid=2, which I translated two weeks ago to german, that eNvolution (You see how I write eNvolution?) is not only development, but community. To know eNvo, You have to know the community. This is an externals fate. Ask just 2000 registered eNvo users who is Apathyboy, how many would know?! eNvolution is not only development, FLQDs URL's, IP's, design etc. It's important, but without community it's nothing better than known other systems. I'm absolutly shure, that community is the hardest job of all to get to work. A primary developer is a primary developer, but that doesn't mean, that he would be a primary project leader also, if he has no envolved capabilities in interacting with living humans. Maybe Apathyboy has, I don't know him, but then these capabilities should be used 120% immidiatly.
> > 
> 
> Who knows and who doesn't know ApathyBoy is irrelivant. He was appointed
> as PM by me. I have that right and I excercised it. I decided on
> ApathyBoy for three reasons.
> 
> 1) He is competant coder.
> 
> 2) He is a good person.
> 
> 3) He has the experience Envolution needs to move forward.
> 
Ok. I'm not able to doubt this and I have to accept it. But how it took
place hasn't been very ably (clever).

> > > What you and your constituants do is your business. But Envolution is
> > > official only when it is open to peer review and public viewing. That
> > > will never change and is not negotiable.
> > So You shouldn't start closed, rapid politics also, so easy!
> > 
> 
> It's always been that way with Envolution and it always will be. It was
> founded on being toatally open and it is my responsibility to see that
> it stays open. Envolution IS open totally and I have learbed that Max
> had created closed development lists while I was chastizing PostNuke for
> having a seperate closed development list. This was wrong of Max to do,
> and I objected to it immediatley upon finding out about it. Max broke
> his agreement with the other three founders by creating a closed
> development model using closed envolution development email lists. I
> have email to prove it if required. I also have chat logs showing Max
> asking me what I have against closed development. If you would like to
> read them for yourself ask me and I will post them.
> 
Not necassary, I know it. One reason has been, that pn took eNvo-Code,
while we have been in bugfixing.

> > > When hotility ceases I may visit envolution.it. But as long as all this
> > > talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized
> > > officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement
> > > Italaian support site in needed. 
> > Tss, tss, tss...
> > 
> 
> So are you saying you support people characterizing Envolution staff as
> Nazi's and Hitler?
Shure not, and that very clear! Maybe my fault, but I believe better is
to try to educate people than bann them immidiatly.Sorry for that ;)

> > > Freedom doesn't mean there isn't guidelies. I get the impression you
> > > want the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want and call it
> > > official Envolution business. That will never work. There has to be
> > > guidelines and all community memebrs were invited to the meeting on Aug
> > > 2 to give their inout...if you decided not to come then you have no
> > > right to complain about it now.
> > Is that Your definite truth? I consider not to start with such words. 
> > 
> 
> I have no problem starting with those words because they are the truth.
> If you didn't show up to the meeting then you have no right to complain
> about it afterward.
> 
> > Again, i.e. me, I didn't have had a minimum chance to take part in that
> > meeting. Others I know also.
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Angelo Gagliani
> > > > staff envolution.it
> > from gatoNero, eNvolution.de also
> > 
> > PS:: Remember, that all my lines are meant constructive!
> > 
> You had the same chance to show up as anyone else. It was announced via
> this email list and on envolution.com far enough in advance for you to
> attend. You sig says your a staffer at envolution.it and
> encolution.de...both Stefan and Max knew about the meeting are you
> saying that they did not inform the German and Italian communities about
> the meeting as well? If they also did not post the news then I would be
> asking them why they did not inform their respective communities as
> well.
> 
> Zoom
It's very simple. Karsten stays in holidays and i did also. I couldn't
find any intenet cafe at that place, where I have been.

Christoph aka gatoNero