[Envolution-devel] IRC log from the August 2nd, 2003 meeting

[Eric B. <eri...@sb...>]

Here is the log from our meeting yesterday, it is completely unaltered so
expect lots of offtopic chatter, lol.

Eric Barr (a.k.a. ApathyBoy)
Project Manager - Envolution
******************************************************

[August 02, 2003 :: 09:25 AM] <putino_away> hi all
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:25 AM] *** putino_away is now known as putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <Zoom> morning
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:26 AM] <putino> hi ApathyBoy
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:27 AM] <putino> morning ? here in Italy are almost
17pm...
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:27 AM] <putino> ehe
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <Zoom> lol
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> it is almost 10am here :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> hehe
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <putino> On the East Coast ?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:29 AM] <putino> :) I suppose when I'll be degreed,
I'll came there to work... I'm an American citizen too :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> but... was there a meeting now ?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> ehm here not there :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> there will be a meeting very soon
in here :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> ok
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <putino> i wait
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:30 AM] <Zoom> about 30 minutes until meeting starts
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] *** sjah (~sjahrazad@61.5.8.125) has joined
channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello sjah :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <sjah> hi :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <Zoom> morninf sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> glad you could make it
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <Zoom> morning even
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <putino> hello sjah, I've read your news
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:31 AM] <sjah> morning, here is evening :(
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:33 AM] <sjah> hi putino, my news is to make everbody
calm down
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <putino> i suppose all want this, but it's not
easy
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <sjah> yes sure, but thats our challenge, want
to solve it or just same like the old story :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> there is a saying here in america,
nothing worth having is easy :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:35 AM] <putino> lol
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:35 AM] <akenvolution> Hi putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] <putino> hi ak
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] <putino> :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] *** Furbo
(~Fu...@po...) has joined channel
#envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:36 AM] *** Mode change "+o Furbo" for channel
#envolution by ChanServ
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Furbo> hello?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <putino> hi Furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Zoom> morning
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <Furbo> sorry   lil isp prob
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <sjah> evening, furbo :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> bummer
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:38 AM] <Furbo> eh just a PPoE auth error..  nothing
big   i was just up late so took me a little to figure it out (tired and
missed the obvious)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Furbo> this is it i take it?   have  i missed
anything
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <ApathyBoy> this is it so far
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Zoom> Havnt started yet...still have 20
minutes
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:39 AM] <Furbo> um  thought u guys said 10 am
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> thats 20 minutes from now
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> it's 0940 GMT -5 right now
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <akenvolution> I think you are having the same
problem I had with EST and ET :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:40 AM] <Zoom> Who me?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] <akenvolution> no, Furbo :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] <Zoom> ahh
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:41 AM] *** Signoff: putino (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> you know I bet the confusison is
daylight savings time.....AP and I live where it isnt recognized so I bet it
is 1040 in  his area which is East of AP and me
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Furbo> wait  i thought i was in -5   and its
10:40 here
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> your in EDT i bet Furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <akenvolution> right, that is what I think too
:)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Furbo> yeah i got daylight saving time
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:42 AM] <Zoom> AP and I live in Indiana so the time is
always EST
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <ApathyBoy> we get our own time zone lol
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <akenvolution> it is 10:43 in New York, which
is -5 GMT, I think :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <Furbo> right..   im in same zone as ny
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <Zoom> ahh makes sense now
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:43 AM] <akenvolution> bingo!
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:44 AM] <Zoom> well I cam in at 1015 (corrected time)
and it was pretty much like this in terms of attendance
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:45 AM] *** angelspike
(ji...@ho...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <angelspike> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello angelspike
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <akenvolution> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:46 AM] <Zoom> good morning/afternoon
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <angelspike> I didn't want to partecipate the
chat
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <angelspike> you can see in the envo-devel ml
why
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> i personally talked with timax and
others, we cleared up the issues in the ml
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:48 AM] <ApathyBoy> there was a lot of
miscommunication happening, but it has been worked out :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:48 AM] <angelspike> but I was wondering how many ppl
was there and what'new
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> well the meeting is only about to
start actually
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <angelspike> I guess my mail "the envolution
community" is still there
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> You are Umberto?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> I just read your email a little
bit ago
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <angelspike> yes Umberto aka @ngelspike
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> you, along with the rest of the
development team were not forgotten.. this meeting is so that you all can
gather so that I have a chance to meet with you and get to know all of you
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:52 AM] <ApathyBoy> and so that we can discuss the
future of the project
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:52 AM] <angelspike> after the 1.25 we made a point
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:53 AM] <angelspike> continue supporting 1.25 as
stable release with only bug fixes
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:53 AM] <angelspike> and begin developing the 1.3 in
cvs
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:54 AM] *** FurboFX (~Furbo@151.201.242.6) has joined
channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:54 AM] <ApathyBoy> you were a developer on the
project so this is a question i would like to ask you
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:55 AM] <ApathyBoy> what were the long term goals of
envolution? both from the development side and a technical side
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:57 AM] *** cino (~cino@195.120.74.252) has joined
channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <sjah> Hi Eric, before issued the news why you
not discuss first with windmeup about your idea?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <sjah> hi cino
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <cino> hi all
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:58 AM] <cino> sorry for the late
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> if I don't rem bad, a priority
was the improvement of the Oracle support leaded by WindmeUp
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> me and timax were working on
template and output code optimization
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> the html output code of
envolution (as for PN) is really bad and it's not compliance with W3C
standards
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <Zoom> Umberto do you consider cleaning up the
1.2.5 code as bug fixing?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> is there someone alive?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <angelspike> as I wrote in my mail I don't
like chat
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <Zoom> Umberto do you consider cleaning up the
1.2.5 code as bug fixing?
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <cino> i'm aliev
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <akenvolution> hi :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 09:59 AM] <akenvolution> I am here
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:00 AM] <ApathyBoy> Sjah: The news that I released was
only meant as a direction that I would like to see envolution go, not
something I was enforcing. that is why we announced the developer meeting
shortly afterwards, so that i could talk to everyone and discuss with them
why I think that is a good direction to follow. ultimately the choice is up
to the community
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:01 AM] <angelspike> the cleaning up of the 1.2.5 was
the development of the 1.3
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:01 AM] <Zoom> so what the difference if we call it
1.2.6 as opposed to 1.3 then?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <angelspike> when I mean bug-fix I mean the
1.25 is stable and finished only  bug fixes and security issues will be
released for this version
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] *** Signoff: Furbo (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <sjah> Zoom: the idea is we stop the 1.25FLS
as our stable version, just make a little fix if needed
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:02 AM] <Zoom> Not a problem...what Im talking about
is cleaning up the code in the stable release in the next version...which
you are calling 1.3
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <angelspike> we also discuss avbout version
numbering
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> apath I am a question
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <ApathyBoy> ask away cino :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <Zoom> and where on the email list archives
can I find this discussion.,...cause I dont see it anywhere
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> sorry, ihave :-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:03 AM] <cino> the support to oracle is always a
priority for the new pm?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <angelspike> I don't rem if in the env-devel
or openitalia ml
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <cino> I mean, the roles that csipiemonte
write in order to have compatibility to oracle will be respected?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:04 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes, support for oracle is a
priority.. as i understand there has already been some work done for this
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <Zoom> Well if it didnt happen on the
envolution dev ml then there si a problem isnt there?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <cino> yes some work has been done
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <Zoom> Developers cant be expected to know
what anyone is working on when the discussions are not happening on the
envolution dev ml
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:05 AM] <ApathyBoy> any work that has already been
done will be respected and maintained :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:06 AM] <ApathyBoy> Zoom is correct, all envolution
developer discussions will take place on the envolutiond-dev mailing lists.
Hopefully in the future we will not have so much anger as we have had in the
last several days
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <cino> and what do you think about other auth
system, like ldap etc? I did not read about it on roadmap...
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] *** marc
(~mf...@us...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> HI Mac
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> marc I mena
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <Zoom> mean even
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <marc> hi
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:07 AM] <angelspike> unfortunely I'm at home now I'd
have to check the pc at office
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:08 AM] <angelspike> anyway the eng devteam was
inactive so maybe we discussed all in the italian ml
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think other forms of auth
support are needed, and you are correct that it is not in the envolution
roadmap. this is why we must all discuss and contribute ideas so that we can
make the roadmap better :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <Zoom> we dont have seperate mailing lists
based on natinal origin
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] <FurboFX> problem is if a product is called
'envolution'    should not the mailing list being used be the main one?
users would join the main list for support
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:09 AM] *** Signoff: angelspike (Client exited)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <Zoom> right thats my point furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <akenvolution> would you guys consider porting
existing backend to pnAPI a good thing?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <akenvolution> Oracle Support does just that
:)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:10 AM] <Zoom> seems to me a lot of development was
taking place off of the envolution-dev mailing list..thats why only a sall
fraction of this information can be located in the archives
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:11 AM] <ApathyBoy> Yes, I also do not expect all
italian members to write english that is unfair to those who do not know
english.. but it also works the other way, i should not expect all english
speaking members to read and write italian. this is why we must all help
each other out
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> It seems to me that priority ne would
be establishing protocols as to where development takes place
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] *** angelspike
(ji...@ho...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> ne = one
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <angelspike> I'm sorry I had a client crash
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <Zoom> welcome back
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <ApathyBoy> welcome back :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:12 AM] <akenvolution> np :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <angelspike> anyway Zoom here you can fine
some discussions about envo verionining
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <angelspike> (Link:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=2672111&forum_id=16620)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=2672111&forum_id=16620
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:13 AM] <cino> in my opininon to mean lack are present
in envo at the moment: there is only an autentication system, through sql,
and there is no workflow framework integrated
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:14 AM] <cino> and nor of them seems to be a problem
for future core's developers..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <Zoom> amgelspike: that thread only mention
not to commit to 1.25fls and that CVS 1.3 was not ready yet...there was no
discussion of versioning in it
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <FurboFX> cino: i think we do need more
authentication   systems
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:15 AM] <angelspike> anyway I guess it's not a
question of numbers
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <Zoom> I agree cino, LDAP, PAM modules,
Kerbos, mod_auth_mysql, mod_auth_pgsql, Jabber etc
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i agree that these things
are needed, i also know that the current code is not ready for this.. this
is why i have suggested that we clean up the code and create standards by
which things are made
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:16 AM] <Zoom> any tools that could create single
source logon will be a boon to business uses
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:17 AM] <angelspike> we decided to step to 1,3 as the
1.25 was pretty complete and stable and the idea was to jump to a new
improved version not just a minor release
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> for Zoom I rem You or someone
with your same nick partecipate to discussion
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> (Link:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:18 AM] <angelspike> (Link:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5399352)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5399352
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <angelspike>  (Link:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5229721)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5229721
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <angelspike> also a CVS branch was setted up
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:19 AM] <cino> italian developers was ready to work on
auth, I think it would be intelligence if you will show interested in ther
contributes.. and not , as you did in the last days, to block their ideas..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> Cino: I never meant to in the last
few days block their ideas
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> Cino: and i would be very happy to
have the italian developers continue work on auth
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <cino> but to block the cms yes ;-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] *** putino_away
(~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <putino_away> hi again
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <putino_away> i was fallen
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <cino> sometimes the two things are near
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <akenvolution> welcome back :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:20 AM] *** putino_away is now known as putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <Zoom> In this thread (Link:
https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583)https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=5433583 I
am not in the thread..and it does not discuss versioning...it informs that a
verison exists but there was no discussion of it
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <FurboFX> cing: i understand   because new pm
was setting up new envolution.com site?  new db?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <FurboFX> cino*
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:21 AM] <Zoom> Also this is a mjaor problem cause in
that thread Max states he has seperate private CVS...when he was telling the
public is was not for development of envolution as an official CVS
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:22 AM] <akenvolution> I think what Zoom is asking for
is a link to discussion when decision about 1.3 was made.
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:22 AM] <cino> luca wrote:
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> I ask the founders not to give the
impression (remember that when
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> communication depends only to mailing
this could be a problem) to treat
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> envo as an only their creature to which
they can do what they want, it's
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> not so to be PM and founder is na honor
but also a responsability to
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> respond to a community far wider (I
intend the staff of developers and
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> people that contribute).
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> this is just an example
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <cino> and it don't depend of new site, or
other thecnical aspect
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:23 AM] <angelspike> well I must go now... I guess
this work better should have done in ML
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <putino> ciao angelspike
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <ApathyBoy> bye angelspike
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <akenvolution> see you later :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <angelspike> bye all
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <ApathyBoy> and yes ML is a top priority
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] *** Signoff: angelspike (Leaving: Bye bye)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:24 AM] <Zoom> hummm...I never got answers to the
questions from him?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:25 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i do not understand what you
are asking
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:25 AM] <cino> I'm asking more respect for italian
coders
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <cino> and more space in vision and roadmap..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <Zoom> all coders are respected..doesnt matter
what national origin is
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:26 AM] <cino> yes this is true
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> i will be completely honest with
you.. I see envolution as a big project with many people, there are many
national origins but we are all one team helping each other out
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <cino> so I think that maybe you have no much
respect for all the coders that was working in envo
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] *** Signoff: putino (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> i have full respect for all
coders, that is why i asked them to come here today
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <Zoom> Are you directing that comment toward
me peronally cino?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <FurboFX> he is asking basically that all the
'founder' talking ends we are all coders..   yes founders started project,
but now it has grown past that           is that what you mean cino?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:27 AM] <ApathyBoy> no i think this is to me zoom :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] *** putino_away
(~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> wb putino :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <putino_away> thanks
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <cino> yes forbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:28 AM] <akenvolution> I think language barrier is the
problem, not nationality
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> it seems that the founders did not look
to last development in envo
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <FurboFX> yes language can be a problem..  but
we can work through that, slowly
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> maybe because of the fact that we did
not use english mailing
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <cino> and this maybe is our error
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:29 AM] <akenvolution> It just happens that Italian
community discusses development in Italian (which is natural), but that
shuts off everybody else
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <cino> yes it's true, but the code that was
done was not in italian :-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <sjah> I think this not about respect or not,
but more there is no standard of procedures for the team
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: It was never meant to leave
out the last development team of envo :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <FurboFX> ecactly
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <FurboFX> exactly
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> sjah: you speak the truth
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <akenvolution> I agree with you 100% sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <sjah> I mean if Eric start to discuss first
with the current staff, there will be no problem
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <FurboFX> may i suggest:  we make up standards
for    coding, ML (multiple lists if need be) and some inter-language
communication
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:31 AM] <sjah> Because it seems to anybody the pm and
zoom take over everything
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> apath think about this aspect:
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> some coders work on envo to implement
support to oracle
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:32 AM] <cino> and work hard on this
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] *** FurboFX is now known as Furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> after some time, there is a change in
the pm person
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> in my opinion, first thing that the new
person should do is
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:33 AM] <cino> to say to all developers that their
work will not loose
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> this is politic, and you did not do it
apacth
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: i have said this several
times in the last week :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> ;-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <akenvolution> But why would it be lost?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <ApathyBoy> but it seems that nobody was
paying attention
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <cino> no, you did not say it at the
beginning, you told it after some flames..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:34 AM] <putino_away> infact
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:35 AM] <putino_away> i think cino is right 100%
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <Furbo> i think a misunderstanding happened..
yes apathy did Not say 'it will not be lost'      but he also did not say
'we will forget all your work'
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <akenvolution> I still don't understand why
Oracle support (a good thing) would be lost?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:36 AM] <cino> because noone of you asked to
csipiemonte the role to write good code compatible to oracle :-D
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <cino> and is very easy to have
incompatibility to oracle
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <Furbo> apathy did not address  what would
happen to current code..  ONly vision for future and roadmap
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: this is because i assumed
that everybody would keep their current positions in the envolution
development team, and that they would all continue with their work :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:37 AM] <Furbo> yes i know mysql and oracle are not
compatible
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <akenvolution> Well, I don't use Oracle, thus
I don't have need for it :), but it does not make me remove any code that
supports Oracle!
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <cino> it's not just a problem to remove, is a
problem to add , ak
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:38 AM] <Furbo> how so a problem?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <cino> if you don't know oracle specification,
you can insert a query that don't work on oracle but work on mysql
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <sjah> furbo: I think apathy forgot that since
he is a pm so he can not say on behalf his personal vision.
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:39 AM] <akenvolution> isn't that the reason envo uses
pnadodb, right?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <Furbo> he was not stating personal visoon so
much as the old roadmap.. but yes sjah, i see your point too
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <sjah> yes, so imho this is only about
miscommunication :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:40 AM] <Furbo> ok  speakinf as someone who knows
Oracle..   i know where cino is coming from..   adodb does not help much
with certain things in oracle..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <Furbo> selects can be different..   AND
especially CREATE, ALTER
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <akenvolution> well, does Oracle support break
SQl support?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:41 AM] <Furbo> selects are not a big issue..    but
table creates are waaay different..   data types, structure of the create
command
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:42 AM] <Furbo> and i have not seen How oracle support
works yet in envo.. i will be though
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:42 AM] *** Signoff: cino (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <ApathyBoy> sjah: i respect and agree with
that opinion
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <Furbo> the big thing we ALL need to work on..
is communication, and making sure respect and understanding happen...
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] *** cino_ (~cino@195.120.74.252) has joined
channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <putino_away> wb cino_
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <putino_away> :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:43 AM] <cino_> :-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> sjah do you sepak italian? Just curious
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> soeajk I mean
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <sjah> no :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <cino_> I'm back
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <Zoom> does Windmeup speak Italian?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <cino_> italian conectivity is not the best
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <akenvolution> lol
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:44 AM] <ApathyBoy> lol
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <cino_> maybe is the worse..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <akenvolution> I was having the same problem
yesterday :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <putino_away> i know very well gprs, I'm on
Omintel gprs, i fall every half hour :P
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <cino_> and gprs don't permit to make vpn, nor
to use terminal server
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:45 AM] <Zoom> We need to set some develpment
guidelines such as what Furbo suggested
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> and not to see sites with apache
autentication..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <Furbo> for communication..   we should make a
list of Who speaks what language.. and in what country they are living.. ??
maybe some speak 2-3 langs very well and can help with mis understandings
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <putino_away> infact cino_...
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> furbo we need a real roadmap
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok, i think that we should start
to discuss some important topics now such as communication and developer
guidelines
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <cino_> and a guide for all the envolution
coders..
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:46 AM] <akenvolution> right
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <Zoom> I think that there should not be closed
email lists and seperate CVS's than from what the public can view
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <akenvolution> naming conventions would be
good
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: yes that is what we need.
there has not been one for envolution for the last 6+ months
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <cino_> putino, have you icq or msr?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <Furbo> well envo never really had good
standards for coding and stuff ever  ;)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <putino_away> yes, MSN
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:47 AM] <akenvolution> right zoom :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:48 AM] <ApathyBoy> zoom is right, this is an open
source and open development project, all lists and cvs should be made
publicly viewable
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:48 AM] <Zoom> so can we all agree to at least that
much? Open development stay open to all
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <ApathyBoy> i agree
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <sjah> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <akenvolution> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Furbo> no hidden or  country specific CVS..
its ok if someone have backup cvs..  but not for separate team dev..   ONE
main cvs for all
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> cino do you agree
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> putino do you agree
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <cino_> y
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:49 AM] <Zoom> ??
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <cino_> but also a roadmap that will cover at
least 3+ mounth
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <akenvolution> Now, the question is how we
achieve that :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <Zoom> if we agree then achieving it should be
the easy [art
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:50 AM] <Zoom> part
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <cino_> anyone can have his own cvs but for
other project
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <ApathyBoy> right
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <akenvolution> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:51 AM] <Zoom> putino do you agree that envolution
develoment is open to all??
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> i not agree, i don't see any
wrong in having a specific CVS, most important must be open access on all
CVS
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> and
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Furbo> specif cvs is in what?       IF
someone wants their won cvs for a 3rd party module.. fine
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <putino_away> it's implicity only for public
development
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Zoom> so you do not agree to open
development? Is that correct? I want to make sure we understand each other.
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:52 AM] <Furbo> but envolution core should only be in
one main cvs..   if now, code gets missplaced
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> putino they mean that core development
is always publich development
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <ApathyBoy> thank you cino :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <putino_away> core development yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <Furbo> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> there will not be a private release
and a publich release
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <ApathyBoy> that is right
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <cino_> and also in the past has benn in such
way
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:53 AM] <Zoom> ALL official envolution cms development
is open to all...Im not talking about personal projects and third party
modules blocks and themes...but if it included in the envolution package it
must be open for all
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:54 AM] <Furbo> right..   biggest problem with that is
code gets lost..   or bug fixes make it to one cvs and not all :(      so
cant have multple core cvs
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:54 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok i'm glad we all agree on that
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:55 AM] *** Akwa|user (~akwairc@213.156.56.142) has
joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:56 AM] *** Signoff: Akwa|user (Leaving: )
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:56 AM] *** amsonx (~akwairc@213.156.56.142) has
joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <amsonx> salve atutti
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:57 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: can i ask you a favor?
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:58 AM] *** Signoff: amsonx (Leaving: )
[August 02, 2003 :: 10:59 AM] <ApathyBoy> if there are any italian speaking
members that come in and try to talk with us, could you please translate for
me? i wish to include everybody in the discussion as best as possible
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** PzSniper (~NetHaCkEr@81.72.115.250) has
joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper »\\\\\\|//////«.. Greetings
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper .... ( Õ. .Õ ).... from PzSniper
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] * PzSniper ===o00o==º==o00o=== Hi Y'all!
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** Signoff: putino_away (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] *** FurboFX
(~Fu...@po...) has joined channel
#envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <ApathyBoy> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <PzSniper> Salve a tutti
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:01 AM] <PzSniper> non cè TiMax?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:02 AM] <ApathyBoy> TiMax did not show up to the
meeting
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] <ApathyBoy> he was invited to along with the
rest of the envolution community
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] <PzSniper> anyone here?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:03 AM] *** FurboFX has left #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] *** putino_away
(~da...@gm...) has joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <putino_away> what about connection cino ?
grrr
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> mi leggi?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <putino_away> si
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> e non parla nessuno?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:04 AM] <PzSniper> ho appena letto di venire da
envo.it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> timax?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <putino_away> TiMax non c'è
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> ma parlano o meno?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] <PzSniper> cmq complimenti x il post, l'ho
molto condiviso ;)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:05 AM] *** Signoff: sjah (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:06 AM] <putino_away> thanks..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:06 AM] <putino_away> :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <putino_away> i must go away 20 minutes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <putino_away> see you
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> see you putino
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] *** sjah (~sja...@ip...) has
joined channel #envolution
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> welcome back sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <PzSniper> Zzzzzzzzzz
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:07 AM] <ApathyBoy> ok i'd like to start talking about
the roadmap
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:08 AM] <ApathyBoy> I read a very good article by sjah
the other day, and he made many good points
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> no private CVS's for offical envo
code...no private email lists for envolution code either...do you agree with
that?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> If it is in Envolution release,
it must be in the main CVS
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> if it is a Third Party work, it
is Third Party work
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> welcome amsonx
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> umm   translation?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> timax is not here
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Furbo> people were just here    im not sure
why no talking
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> hiya PzSniper
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> TiMax didnt show up
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> wb sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> lol...sleepeing huh
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <Zoom> ok lets move on then Eric whats next to
discuss
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> what about the roadmap? do you think
is right to have roadmap for al least 3 mount?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> are you alive?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> no
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> è una chat in inglese sniper :-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> seems not, at least from 5 minutes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> my connection is right now
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> hi sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> hello
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <akenvolution> see you later
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] *** Signoff: putino_away (Ping timeout)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:09 AM] <cino_> telm me apath
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <cino_> ok apath, but my connection is not the
best
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <ApathyBoy> i understand :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:10 AM] <sjah> sorry, change the isp :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <cino_> in italian all the isp goes to
interbusiness, and this is the problem :-(
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <ApathyBoy> i see, that is a bummer
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:11 AM] <cino_> apath, do you think to rewrite the
roadmap?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:12 AM] <Zoom> where is the roadmap your talking about
cino?? Gotta link to it?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:13 AM] <cino_> i'm talking about envo news and ML
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:13 AM] <cino_> not a real roadmao
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> Envolution news and ML is not the
roadmap...so Im trying to understand what roadmap you  know to be the
envolution roadmap
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> in otehr words what roadmap are you
following...I would like to read it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <cino_> just a moment
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:14 AM] <Zoom> ok thanks
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:15 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think that the roadmap needs to
be rewritten to a certain degree. I think that furbo's comment to sjah's
article summed things up best
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:15 AM] <ApathyBoy> "I think the issue is as u said
the technical coding to the business needs. We need 2 roadmaps then.. 1) is
the community vision and such.. 2) a technical how to GUIDE then"
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <Zoom> 1 roadmap and 1 vision statment right?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> correct
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <cino_> correct
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> a vision for envolution that
everybody can agree on
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <Zoom> I dont think anoyone will disagree with
that
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:16 AM] <ApathyBoy> once we have a clear vision for
the future we can then make the technical roadmap to get there
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <akenvolution> I agree
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <Furbo> vision (business needs, user, )
roadmap..  steps to acheive it..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <ApathyBoy> right furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <sjah> yes thats right
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:17 AM] <PzSniper> Hi Zoom
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <PzSniper> here we are sowwy i was afk working
at eNvo ;9
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <sjah> so in the future there will be no
fighting for the new pm :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <ApathyBoy> right :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Furbo> right..  so what does everyone want
from Evnolution.. as in needs (not tech specs)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Zoom> Yes I read your post at envolution
PzSniper even though I disagree with your assessment of Apathyoy and what
you referred to as the Anglo's
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <Furbo> and "to make envolution the best CMS"
is not a vision     tooo broad
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:18 AM] <cino_> zoom this is for me a roadmap, or at
least an opinion of that the roadmap will be: (Link:
http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10003&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)http://www.envolution.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10003&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <ApathyBoy> i also do not think that this irc
chat is the right place to begin this discussion about vision.. i think that
we should be asking the community what they want
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <Furbo> probaly yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <PzSniper> Do i need the +v?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <ApathyBoy> maybe put news postings on many
sites asking community members "What do you want from Envolution?"
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:19 AM] <cino_> I think that you shoud ask to the
coders and not only to the peole
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> No PzSniper i can see you fine
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> yes i agree..   bc we need to compile
ALL the needs   then make a common vision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> and that you should identify the
"people" you want to satisfy
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: coders are part of the
community
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> everyone gets a say in vision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <Furbo> and yes.. we have to define our
'target market'
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <PzSniper> Ohh Okay Apathy i'm glad to have
chance 2 read u
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> ok, but if you have in mind yung
people that want to biuld their own site
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:20 AM] <cino_> you will have a roadmap
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <cino_> instead, if you have in mind
industries, you will have other opinions.. and so on
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <PzSniper> can i ask WHY you felt a need of a
new ROADMAP apathy?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <Zoom> roadmap is nothing more than step to
achieving goals
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:21 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: this was not a new
roadmap, it is the roadmap envolution has had all along but just not
followed
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <PzSniper> Okay Zoom, but why you talk me
woth @spy!?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Furbo> what is the goals of envolution?
can someone tell me that   and have somethign to back it up?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Zoom> where is the roadmap you folks followed
before ApathyBoy became involved...I keep hearing Eric is changing it yet I
dont finds a roadmap anywhere to compare it to to see what you claim he has
changed
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <cino_> and apath this was not follewed
because we found people with other necessities
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <PzSniper> It was TiMax leadership the cause?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:22 AM] <Furbo> the vision of envo was "to be the
best"     thats not goals.. not a vision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Zoom> PzSniper I didnt understand you last
statement
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <cino_> furbo it dosn't have sense to be the
best, you can't be the best... :-)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <PzSniper> Which one Zoom please
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <PzSniper> ?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <cino_> it has sense to be the best in one
thing, not in general
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Zoom> <PzSniper> Okay Zoom, but why you talk
me woth @spy!?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:23 AM] <Furbo> im not saying i want to be the best..
but that is the only 'vision' anyone at evno lately can tell me
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <PzSniper> Someone whne you talk me Zoom my
client open a news window where i can't reply u..in pvt i mean
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Furbo> cino_, what is your goal for
envolution.?  your needs?      Not technical
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> so I repeat: what is the target you
want to have for envo?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Zoom> we dont talk in private in meetings
PzSniper...it's a public meeting
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <Zoom> so all information is out in the open
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> my vision is to have a general,
modular and advanced cms
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <PzSniper> yes, but it's YOU not me hehe
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:24 AM] <cino_> possibly with the separations of all
modules from the core
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <PzSniper> anyway no pb
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <Zoom> Im not chatting wth you privately
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <PzSniper> Okay nvm
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with a workflow engine, with a modular
authentication system
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with all written with the api
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <Furbo> ok  those are things we to keep in
mind..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:25 AM] <cino_> with the support to oracle and to
mssql
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Furbo> who do you see using envolution?
what kind of user?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> befoe you can get to a workflow code,
or ldap we need cleaned up code tree
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> I see two king of user, at least in
italy
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> optimize it and clean up the output
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> zoom is correct on this
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> I see end user, the ones that use envo
for personal site
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <PzSniper> Cleaning up code, mean delete
Encompass?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <PzSniper> i hope not
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> no it doesnt it means cleanin it up
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <cino_> that want more anvatar etc..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <Zoom> doesnt mean deleting anything
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:26 AM] <ApathyBoy> before we can introduce advanced
features into envolution we must have a solid system with standards
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <PzSniper> cino, which kind of italian users?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <PzSniper> Okay zoom
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> and coders that work to build sites,
for their enterprise of for work
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Furbo> k
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> and I think the necessities of the
second group are more and more important that the first one
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Zoom> so there are personal users and
business users
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> yep
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <cino_> in not real?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:27 AM] <Zoom> but niether is more important than the
other
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <PzSniper> Apathy, standard sys will be a
clone of PN? dpn't you fear that?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <Furbo> see thats a start of a vision for
envolution..    personal users, novice coders, enterprise apps..    and you
mention coders should be priority over personal site users..   thats a start
:)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: i do not fear this
because we are not the same people as PN, we are different people with
different ideas
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <Furbo> a vision is the WHAT of a system..
the rooadmap is the HOW and WHEN
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:28 AM] <PzSniper> cino, coders you mean comeone for
not business market?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <cino_> I would like to know the opinion ot
the pm about that
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Zoom> Some coders come from a
non-businessmarket yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <PzSniper> pm?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <ApathyBoy> cino: my opinion is close to yours
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Furbo> im not sayint that cino's ideas are
the only ones.. but its a start of ideas for a vision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:29 AM] <Furbo> the hardes thing  especially for
coders in making a vison is keeping it as NON-technical as possible
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> IMHO the major problme felt by
users is the end of international support
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <cino_> pzsniper: oftner the necessities of
professional coders are different from people that code for their site
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <sjah> I agreed with furbo, vision is WHAT, so
users can see the different between envo with others pn, xaraya etc
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <Zoom> I agree sjah
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: just because i myself do
not speak italian doesn't mean tthat i do not support internation community
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> yes true
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <PzSniper> but honestly
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:30 AM] <sjah> why should i used envo, why not others,
what is the added value from users side
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <cino_> if you code for pleasure, in not
important to authenticate in pop3 or imap...
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <PzSniper> from italy i'm telling you THAT'S
something scare
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: we will always work hard
for the international community
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:31 AM] <PzSniper> i don't wanna bother you Apathy,
but you gave this idea to us
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> yes, i wanna beleive you... but
maybe your voice on italian community could help your imagine
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <Zoom> I f we clean the code we can sya we
have a less resource intensive CMS than PN and Xaraya which will allow
business users better perfoamnce and personal users less overhead and
problems on shared hosting environments...among a million other benefits
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: i am sorry that i gave
you that idea, it was never meant that way.. i hope that we can all move
forward from this :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> tha's just an advice
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> if you wanna
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <PzSniper> i'm offering to translate your
toughts for the rest of italian ppl
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <ApathyBoy> i would appreciate that PzSniper
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:32 AM] <Furbo> right cino..   some novice users may
not care for advanced features.. BUT if that is not our target user base
thats not an issue
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:33 AM] <Zoom> cino_: Users still use internet
services so authentication to them may not be important but they do not want
to sign up to 15 different envo sites when a single source login would make
their involvement and particpation easier
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:33 AM] <Zoom> so indirectly the technology business
users want aids the simple end user
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:34 AM] <Furbo> the proble is its very easy for
developers do say "our users want ldap and such" because we want that    but
what if we have 100,000 users   and 80,000 are personal site users..  then
our target usrebase is NOT advanced users  :(         i find it hard to
believe that as large as the userbase for envo is ALL are enterprise users
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:34 AM] <Zoom> This sint an Itlaian community or a
Jewsih community or an American community...it's the Envolution
community....doesnt matter where you are from so can we please leave the
secular crap at the door
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <Zoom> we are all equal regardless of our
national origin
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <cino_> ok zoom this is the reality
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <Zoom> so please stop seperating us by our
ethnic heratige
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:35 AM] <cino_> you are right
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <Zoom> I dont have italian friends...or German
friends...or American friends...I just have friends
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <cino_> but if you want to achive something
you have to move to it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <PzSniper> I agree Zoom
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <Zoom> cino": and sometimes that means you
have to accept change
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:36 AM] <ApathyBoy> yes i agree with Zoom
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Furbo> ok   apathy,   guys    we need to ASK
our  developers, users (non-tech and coder users)  the whole community what
THEY want..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Zoom> Yes Furbo that si true....but the
coding standard are what the PM sets
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <PzSniper> Is that chat for Roadmap or users
req?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <cino_> I think that in this way envo will not
be such different from other cms
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <Furbo> then the dev team can figure out what
they want too...    AND  try to come up with a vision.. and THEN a roadmap
of how
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:37 AM] <PzSniper> just a quest ;)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <cino_> i'm sorry I've to go out, have a nice
day, see on ML
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <Zoom> c-ya cino
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <akenvolution> PzSniper: what do you
personally want from next envo release?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <ApathyBoy> Goodbye cino.. thanks for stopping
in and sharing your thoughts, it was appreciated :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:38 AM] <Furbo> PM enforces standards (like a cop in a
way)..  does not establish things by himself        yes coding standards are
needed.. so is vision, roadmap, everything
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> see you later
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <Furbo> cya cino
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <sjah> by cino
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <cino_> hi all
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> Personally
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> Just you
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> i'm starting a web design agency b4
end of year
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> but
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <akenvolution> ok, good for you :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> 6 month ago i've started a web
communty
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <Zoom> Furbo: one thing because of our
diversity you'll never get 100% agreement on anything...so in effect the PM
does set the standard based on input fro all...but bottom line is the PM has
to set it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:39 AM] <PzSniper> based on phpbb and a php portal
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> for vision and roadmap we need to use
the site, ml  anything to get  dev team, users  feedback..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> now i'm migrating to eNvo
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> actually the PM organizes the dev team
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> so i'm new
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] *** Signoff: cino_ (Leaving: Trillian ((Link:
http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)http://www.ceruleanstudios.com))
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> anyway
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Furbo> the pm should have people who help
ADVISE    and as a group comprimise
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> on this community i'm ALREADY
testing the functionality of a CMS
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> and i've tested many beleive me
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <Zoom> comprimise is nt always good thing
Furbo
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:40 AM] <PzSniper> my choice fallen on Envo
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> why?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> i really bet a lot on it beleive me
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> why?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Furbo> life is a compremise zoom..
people who dont, tend to be alone a lot
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> for the power and user frinedly
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> What specifically do you want
from it?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> interface
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Zoom> compromise means that two opposing
sides dont get what they want...it implies both sides loose
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <akenvolution> Is it admin interface or user
interface or both?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think Zoom means that if you try
to make everybody happy at the same time by including everything that
everybody wants it will not work
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <Furbo> actualy no..  it can also mean that 2
sides sit down and figure out that what BOTH wanted was not the best.. that
a 3rd option is better
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:41 AM] <PzSniper> the best goal IMHO is to add
function both for end user and company
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <PzSniper> admin expecially arken
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Zoom> Furbo thats not comprimise...thats
redefining needs which IS a good thing
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Furbo> can we make everyone happy.. NO..
but since everyone says 'envo is a democracy'  put it to a vote.. majoriey
rules..
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Zoom> if we all sit down and agree then we
ghavnt comrimised
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <Furbo> if anyone doesnl like that.. Leave
then
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <ApathyBoy> lol we also need to start using
the same dictionary :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:42 AM] <akenvolution> So, what you want from envo is
an easy way to admin your site, correct?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <Zoom> Envoluiton is not a democracy...it was
establish long ago as a meritocracy
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> no hold on... easy is OK, but not
poor for power user!
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> for exaple
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> 2day i've learned how implement
PHP/HTML page
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> directly clicking on MENU at left
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:43 AM] <PzSniper> and opening it inside INDEX
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <ApathyBoy> PzSniper: you want something that
is easy enough for everybody to use, but powerful enough to give more
features to a power user?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <Furbo> IF we find out that 90% of the people
(users and devs)  want X     and the pm, or a core dev doesnt..  who should
win?  the community!
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> not easy for a newbie
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> but a very excellent feature for
power user
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> yes aphaty
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <akenvolution> Ok, do you need LDAP?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> the portal i used b4 was yes yes,
but not good for paly with code
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <Zoom> It's not a contest...it's not a win
loose situation...if 90% want to have bloated vode with poor results are we
gonna accept that?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> so i drop iut
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:44 AM] <PzSniper> it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <ApathyBoy> Furbo yes you are right: and all
zoom is saying is that the pm would be the one to make the final
announcement that says we are going to follow the communities choice
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> within coding standards yes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Furbo> announcement..   yes   NOT all
decision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <PzSniper> (sorry 4 typos i write faster ;) )
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <akenvolution> np :)
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> I never said all decison...just the
final decision
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <PzSniper> personally i like the hard coding,
coz it's the ONLY way to know well your work
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <Zoom> his desicion based on input from all
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:45 AM] <sjah> Zoom, i think it should be decided
clearly, democracy or not. Founders can make it
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> for me the managment of modules or
blocks is marvelous
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <akenvolution> I agree with sjah on this one
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> maybe something more could be done
for the Themes
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Furbo> most of the community could care less
about code bloat or HOW we do it.. they want feature x
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Zoom> See Sjah....Im trying to downplay the
founders thing......All a founder should be doing now is making sure the
project stays open thats all
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <akenvolution> so you want more modules,
correct?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <PzSniper> i't was very hard find a good one,
so i done it myself
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:46 AM] <Zoom> and thats all I want to do really
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> i think that maybe it would be a
good idea that we clearly define all of the roles of the staff.. Project
Manager, Lead Developer and so on
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <sjah> I meant you can play in between,
community can decide if he agree or not
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <akenvolution> so, you code your own modules,
correct?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> right.. that needs done too
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> who is what
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <sjah> sorry can't play in between
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <ApathyBoy> and what authority if any they
have, and on what
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Zoom> I dont follow Sjah..can you reframe
your last comment again please?
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 AM] <Furbo> i know im nothing..  so their is 1
down..    1000000 to go
[August 02, 2003 :: 11:47 A...
 
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