Re: [Envolution-devel] [Re: Hosting questions]

[Sascha E. <me...@sa...>]

I have nothing to add to my former statements to you and I will not
engage in one of your flame wars.
Someone deleted my posting to the Envolution site in response to your
accusations. This is not the level of human interaction I want to get
involved with.

If any normal Envolution guys want to talk, I am open to suggestions /
ideas, and yes, I am even interested in benchmarking tests to compare
several CMS systems, etc.

I remember having a good time with TiMax a long time ago, so I believe
there should be plenty of normal people in this community.
Catch me off-list, if you want to talk. I will unsubscribe from this
list again after this message.

Sincerely
Sascha Endlicher
http://www.ezoshosting.com/


> On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 13:07, Sascha Endlicher wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I am Sascha Endlicher of http://www.ezoshosting.com, not ezhosting.com.
> > It's the little details that you try to use to make a point, but they
> > are just not right.
> > Two statements on two different issues.
> > 
> 
> Yeah I must have mispelled it. We are talking about your company though.
> 
> > a) We turned away a potential customer a few days ago who was asking
> > about hosting a large Envolution based website. Large as in "terms of
> > server load it would have caused". If by those descriptions the site
> > would have been a PostNuke site or a PHPNuke site the customer would
> > have gotten the same answer. Same thing for Xaraya.
> > 
> 
> Then why did you feel inclined to state this FUD,
> 
> <quote>
> "The problem in this case is certainly not the amount of visitors or the
> bandwidth. Envolution is poorly programmed and uses way too many server
> resources. Unfortunately it also doesn't use any intelligent caching
> techniques. As an example: We could host approximately 50 to 100 times
> more HTML based sites than your site at the same bandwidth."
> </quote>
> 
> Sascha this quote specifically states it wasn't about large sites or
> bandwidth. The quote specifically states that "Envolution is poorly
> programmed and uses way too many resources".
> 
> You surely must realize that under Envolution's hood is a postnuke code
> base! The only primary difference being the addition of Encompass which
> does have a caching system which the quote says we don't have!
> 
> Furthermore Encompass typically uses no more resources than what Xaraya,
> Postnuke, Xoops, and any other CMS uses...sure there are minor
> differences depending on the number of modules and the forum software
> used but generally the difference if any would be negligable.
> 
> So again...if what you say is true then why tell people the stuff quoted
> above? Can't say one thing then turn around and say something else when
> it's there in black and white to be read!
> 
> > Envolution, PostNuke and PHPNuke are great tools to administer a
> > website, but they currently "have a lot of room for improvement" when it
> > comes to heavy traffic sites. Notice that the customer did not ask about
> > PostNuke hosting. I can tell you about people who are just as desperate
> > because they can't find cheap PostNuke hosting with their 30 000plus
> > visitors a day sites. We are honest enough to say that we won't host
> > them, other hosts take their money and shut them down.
> > 
> 
> So why then Sascha did you specifically say, "The problem in this case
> is certainly not the amount of visitors or the bandwidth"?
> 
> Come on do you seriously expect us to believe you don't know that server
> resources are directly proportional to the number of visitors accessing
> a website using scripting languages such as PHP?? Thats a pretty bold
> statement...you must think Envolution developers have no clue about
> server resources!!!!!!!!!!! 
> 
> > Xaraya has the potential to become a great tool, but at present it
> > isn't. I personally believe the laid out blocklayout is excellent and it
> > is great to work with, because I personally come from an XML / XSLT
> > background, but Xaraya has other bugs that make it impossible to use it
> > on production sites yet. Plus, the number of SQL calls it currently
> > generates are horrible. It is what I call a "server killer".
> > 
> 
> Yes it does..as does
> Postnuke...Xoops...PHP-Nuke.....Drupal...WebGUI.....Slashcode....and
> even good old Envolution!
> 
> > So, don't make this a "he is with Xaraya" thing.
> > 
> 
> I didn't. I was merely drawing the connection between you and the former
> postnuke develoeprs who left to form Xaraya. That bunch of people which
> includes you are constantly putting down Envolution created code....this
> issue is just another example of it.
> 
> > You might not know that, but we had actually advertised hosting for
> > Envolution on google and Overture in the past, shortly after the
> > Envolution fork, but there was not much interest by surfers and
> > potential clients.
> 
> I sure hope it doesn't turn out that the lack of interest was due to
> comments such as what you made to JFK....if I contacted a webhost and
> they told me not to use "insert cms name here" because it was "poorly
> programmed" I might be inclined to think that the less technically
> inclined would believe you knew what you were talking about. 
> 
> > People want PostNuke like crazy, although I see a lot of bad things
> > about PostNuke, one of them is the fact that it makes a bad use of
> > system resources.
> > 
> > Have you ever tried to host a site with 30 000 unique visitors an hour
> > running PostNuke in a virtual hosting environment?
> 
> Does it matter? We are not talking about real server resource issues. If
> this was all about server resource issues you wouldn't have stated, "The
> problem in this case is certainly not the amount of visitors or the
> bandwidth" because we both know that bandwidth and simultaneous visitors
> DO have an impact on server resources...the problem lay in your next
> comment, "Envolution is poorly programmed and uses way too many server
> resources." Now let's keep that in context....all over your website we
> see Xoops, PHP-Nuke, Postnuke, and Xaraya...yet no mention of their
> server resource handling! Seems to me you specifically omit Envolution
> and specifically take the chance to tell prospective customers about
> your perception that Envolution is "poorly programmed" while not telling
> them that all nuke CMS's are about the same in that regard.
> 
> > We tried and failed. The next time he had that many visitors we put him
> > on a dedicated server for free. We didn't end up loosing the customer,
> > but he switched to Virtuanews, which uses really good caching.
> > 
> 
> Maybe it has something to do with the number of clients you pack into
> one machine when virtual hosting...who knows...who cares....my point and
> the only point I am attempting to address is your specific remark to a
> potential client that Envolution is "poorly programmed". The client can
> choose whatever software that fits his/her needs...we activly promote
> that
> 
> > Postnuke even gets cranky at 30 000+ visitors a day and you can't make a
> > profit with it, not with our cheap prices at least.
> 
> So shall we tell the Postnuke community that you believe that using
> Postnuke is not profitable? They would eat you alive and I would have to
> agree with them on it.
> 
> > When Kevin Mitnick was free to use the internet again and his
> > girlfriend's website, who is hosted with us, got mentioned on several TV
> > stations within a few hours, she had 30 000 visitors per hour and the
> > server load was not an issue at all. She used Movable Type. Movable Type
> > generated static HTML pages that are only updated and regenerated when
> > someone posts a comment.
> 
> So you want to compare static HTML pages with Dynamic ones? It doesn't
> take a genious to know static pages will be faster and less resource
> intensive...but then again it doesn't offer the convenience of a CMS
> application with ancillary applications which are what module are.
> 
> > This is what I call excellent in terms of server load! Plus, you can
> > burn the HTML pages on a CD. That's another killer feature for Content
> > Management IMHO.
> > 
> 
> How many clients besides his girlfriends are on the same server (as if
> this was relevant to the issue at hand)?
> 
> > b) Scott Kindley asked in an email if he could host some envolution
> > sites with us. He could have asked for static html page hosting, and he
> > would have had the same reply.
> > I don't personally like him, but I saw no need to tell him that again. I
> > just answered 
> > "Scott,
> > 
> 
> You have got to be kidding me! I also already told you I was probing for
> information to find out what you beef was with Envolution. I never
> intended to host with you or any company I host my own stuff. But since
> you are so quick to point out how much you don't like me perhaps it
> isn't so hard to figure out you don't like Envolution because of who I
> am as well! Which is what I said in the first damn place...it isn't
> about resources it's about politics.
> 
> 
> > Do I have bad feelings towards Envolution?
> > No, not at all. I am more than willing to even extend the "we sponsor
> > active postnuke developers" offer to "we sponsor active Envolution
> > developers".
> > 
> 
> Fair enough then....put up a sponsership of Envolution and retract your
> false alligations that Envolution is "poorly programmed" ands top lying
> to people by giving innaccurate misleading information about Envolution
> and I'll shutup.
> 
> > Do I have issues with Scott Kindley? Yes, I do.
> 
> Get in line pal...many people do. I don't care about who likes or
> dislikes me...I tell the truth and I believe in fair and honest open
> source development. All along our past Sascha you and folks like you
> tend to blame me for things I had no control over...I didn't lie to
> postnuke users and developers....Cox and crew did......didn't close
> development of postnuke to include only those approved of by Cox and
> crew...they did....I didn't published falsified benchmarks in an effort
> to convince people Blocklayout was superior....Cox's boys did.
> 
> Now let's talk about what Zoom did do just for the record......
> 
> Zoom raised questions about falsified benchmarks.....
> Zoom complained loudly when Cox and crew ignored the end users of
> postnuke and developers of third party blocks, modules, and themes.
> Zoom exposed emails and IRC logs given to him by insiders at the former
> postnuke showing the community how Cox and crew lied and had motives to
> create a commercial product and lock out community contributors.
> Zoom complained when Cox and crew marginalized non-english speaking
> communities by ignoring their requests for docs and language support for
> thier languages.
> Zoom cofounded Envolution to give ALL community members a voice in
> development not just a chosen few!
> Zoom activly talked with both Harry Zink and Vanessa Hackinson about
> reuniting PostNuke and Envolution into one solid community after it was
> clear the dishonest people were no longer part of PostNuke...(BTW both
> Harry and Vanessa refuse to reunite the two commnities into a single
> nuke community. Guess the end users still dont matter at postnuke
> considering development is once again closed and jeld behind moderateed
> lists again)
> 
> 
> > If Scott Kindley wants to make my personal dislike a dislike against
> > Envolution, he will fail.
> 
> Nope. I don't have to make anything....you made the case for me with
> your quote.
> 
> > Scott Kindley is not the Envolution project I believe, and my lengthy
> > examples should have cleared up this matter.
> 
> You got that right I am not Envolution. I am only a part of it. The
> community is what makes Envolution so great. And I don't beleive this
> community wants people like you to run it down with false statements and
> disparaging remarks about it either. So I'll envolution community
> members will decide for themsleves whether or not your comments about
> Envolution being "poorly programmed" is a pout down or not. I for one
> believe it is.
> 
> Zoom
> 
> 
> 
> 
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