RE: [Envolution-devel] Power Mongers

[<Chr...@t-...>]

Please stop this flaming: I started with a call for help and I got it.
It wasn't my intention to import german flaming here.

eNvolution is open-source and exactly in that moment, when it wouldn't
be no more open-source,  I would stop immediatly my engagement. I got
very much efforts the last year from open-source, that I want to give
somethimng back and promote the open-source ideas against propritary
solutions. For me it's a question of moral and informational freedom.

Zoom is a founder and will be a founder. He did or does some experiments
with other ideas, why not? I can't remember that anybody has been
disagreed with his excurs. His experiences can't be nothing else than
good for us.

We need some organisation, but it's no question of hirarchy, but a
question of functionalaty. It should be as flat and powerfull as
possible.


Am Son, 2003-07-06 um 21.42 schrieb Denver Prophit Jr.:
> There you go long windily hijacking my words again to suite your need.
> Never was about ME.  You left the project your no longer any kinda
> nothing except a contributor.  Sorry your power hold is gone. Max leads
> things now.
> 
> Do I care about that old idea of a 501-C3 now?  Not really.  I'm happy
> doing what I do now in my efforts.  I can still already see you
> referring back to yourself as a founder and throwing your weight around
> as usual.  Well you abandoned it because we would not go to object
> oriented programming like you wanted.  Your project failed so I guess
> you come back trying to usurp the authority you once had.
> 
> That's my only beef.  Stop trying to play king of the hill and play
> nicely in the sandbox with the rest of us.  Sorry my facts were not 100%
> bullet-proof. We all know how you like to Parle with words.
> 
> "..happy elsewhere" sorry I'm not going anywhere nice try.
> 
> I'll ignore any other replies to this thread as I'm already unhappy I
> started it but if I had to express my feelings anywhere...here would be
> the best place away from the community forums.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: env...@li...
> [mailto:env...@li...] On Behalf Of Scott
> Kindley
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 2:14 PM
> To: Evolution-Dev-List
> Subject: Re: [Envolution-devel] Power Mongers
> 
> On Sun, 2003-07-06 at 13:06, Denver Prophit Jr. wrote:
> > I stopped showing up because you were running everything.  Wrong the
> > idea of a organization structure was NOT to dictate to the community
> but
> > to be in a better position to handle the community and its direction,
> > ideas and inputs.
> > 
> 
> And since your idea wasn't the one consensus agreed upon everyone else
> is a "power monger"? Is that what you are suggesting Denver? Sounds like
> a case of sour grapes you have there.
> 
> Let me tell you about organization. This organization has a structure
> already. It just wasn't the one you wanted. Instead of having a tall
> hierarchial structure it remains relativly flat...which is what Brian
> wanted as well. It doesn't require some IRS Tax designation in order to
> be a valid organization.
> 
> > I suggested the 501-3C to Brian for funding non-profit projects like
> > promotion, paid programmers and the like.  I NEVER suggested a company
> > for profit.  
> 
> If you are looking for a 501-3c then I would suggest you look into
> supporting the Free Software Foundation or the Opensoftware Development
> Consortium. They are already in place. They already do what you suggest
> (which I will assume is your underlying motive). It doesn't mean every
> opensource project has to organize for the sake of pecuniary measures!
> And forming yet another non-profit entity is simply unneeded and
> redunadant.
> 
> I'll take it one step further Denver. This project was NOT founded upon
> money issues. I will repeat this again since you don't seem to grasp the
> concept. This is a volunteer free/open source project...NOT a charitable
> organization who funds anyone!!!!! Furthermore, this community is an
> international network of people from all different backgrounds and
> cultures as well as nations. This means that U.S. 501-3c status means
> diddly squat in Asia, Europe, and most other countries. So in addition
> to being redundant, 501-3c wouldn't be practical.
> 
> Envolution doesn't require some IRS Tax designation in order to be a
> valid organization.
> 
> > But here we are again back to calling for organization when
> > this could have been done a year ago.  
> 
> NO. This is not what is happening. We are simply calling for better
> communication. Nice try in trying to hijack the context of my original
> reply that prompted this thread.
> 
> > Why would I say you took almost
> > total control and usurped everyone else's job?  Because myself and
> > others who confided in me told me so.  
> 
> Well let's let results speak for themselves cause I surely doubt you can
> speak for these so called others. FACT ONE: This community is growing.
> FACT TWO: This community is stable. FACT THREE: Nobody here works "for"
> envolution so no body here has a "JOB", as you put it, to be usurped!
> Where and who are those others? Let them speak for themselves!
> 
> > After it was decided not to go
> > the route of a organization structure but stick to your idea of a
> > programmers structure I was asked to promote and market by Brian.  
> 
> Promotion and marketing is not exclusive to your "structured
> organization". Envolution is almost at 10,000 members by promotion and
> marketing on an informal level....all since August of 2002. I'd say your
> arguments are without merit and instead based upon Xaraya like values.
> If you want 501-3c status then I suggest you go join Xaraya and the DDF,
> just be sure to assign copyright to any of your work you contribute over
> to the DDF so THEY can control what happens with your code. That's the
> kind of structure you sound like you are advocating.
> 
> > Yet,
> > everyday no tasks were assign to me and you went ahead in your
> capacity
> > as lead programmer and take over marketing and promotion and
> everything
> > else under the sun.
> 
> Hummm. First of all, as Max can attest, ole Zoom was never the lead
> programmer. And considering we grew from 4 initial people to almost the
> 10,000 people registered today I can safely say WE (not I) did something
> right.
> 
> I am no longer in the day to day management of Envolution Denver. But I
> am still a founding member of this project and I have been correct way
> more than I have ever been wrong in my judgments about how a project
> such as this should be run. 
> 
> As Max will explain to you Brian, Brandon, and I did not give up our
> interests in Envolution as a project. So you can bank on this...As long
> as ole Zoom is around I will not allow this project to become like
> Xaraya or the DDF.
> 
> So here is the bottom line Denver.If you have such a problem with
> Envoluton or the way Max, Brian, Brandon, and I founded it..including
> the underlying values, then why don't you find a place where you would
> feel more comfortable?
> 
> This community is not about you...it's not even about me, Max, Brandon,
> or Brian. It is about free/open software development on an international
> level. 
> 
> It is working, it is growing, and it is NOT a US IRS legal entity which
> does nothing but collect money and fund people IT thinks deserves it.
> Besides that, go tell all of our international support sites that they
> will have to abide by US Tax law in order to be part of the Envoltuion
> international network. I'm sure they will quickly let you know how they
> feel about that.
> 
> In closing let me remind you that Brian, as you refer to so often, is
> NOT the leader of Envolution. Four people, of which I am one founded it
> are the ultimate artibrators in a dispute. Co-Founder Tiraboschi
> Massimiliano is the project leader as agreed upon by the four founding
> members after the public elections failed to produce anyone interested
> in running the project.
> 
> Envolution always has been, and will continue to be, free for all
> people. It will not be privatized or commercialized. And in difference
> to your opinion about being a 501-3c entity under US IRS Tax Law does
> not mean it is NOT a business. A non-profit entity can and often is a
> business.
> 
> It won't work here Denver, and suspect you would be happier elsewhere.
> 
> Zoom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Christoph Schwaeppe
mailto:chr...@t-...