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From: Webmaster <e0...@ho...> - 2003-08-04 12:35:02
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I present myself, CoolOs, I were the webmaster of envo-Canada.=20 I say well were bus has my great surprise this site does not exist more. = While further excavating I see that that of France has undergoes the = same fate.=20 The least of the things would have been to inform before closed sites.=20 Cheer for the French-speaking support=20 CoolOs |
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From: gagl <ca...@fr...> - 2003-08-04 15:12:50
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Hi, I'm capretta: I was doc manger before, I'm in staff of envolution.it and was working = on the eNDP (eNvolution Documentation Project): maybe the new MP and all = the new 4 developers (nothing personal....) and alive-again founders = don't know, but Zoom knows how things went in this year and what has = been stated and created.=20 You maybe ask what's going on now with all "TiMax followers" as someone = wrote on this ML.... Ok, many things changed, and you new staff seem to be the only that = doesn't understand: maybe if you read ML of the last year you would = understand more how we were organized, not always by written rules:=20 THIS COMUNITY WORKED AND GROWED AND WAS RULED MOSTLY BY CONFIDENCE. And = this politics, the best one in Open source voluntary projects, worked = fine: because we had a PM that left us free to create and develop on = little projects, made by groups, with personal contacts, other ML, with = all tools we needed, but we had ALWAYS support, reliance and respect on = and by our MP. Evreything was reported to him, who was the center of all = single projects. We call it coordination and organization if needed: = that's what a PM has to do.=20 Nearly 12000 users, have you seen our Forums on envo.it? our Statistics? = All the users asked, helped in making better this CMS: they feel it, and = had confidence in us, and we had in them. The staff tried then to = satisfy these needs of the users, and spontaneously things were = developed and bugs fixed: that's a comunity, based on confidence and = respect.=20 This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how things = work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works and he = showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and then = programming the future.=20 He managed only, until now, to make a nonsense vision, that we, from the = italian support side, haven't translated, because it cracks the promises = and the expectations of the 12000 users we have, thinking: maybe he = stepped on a bullshit, how we say in italy. Then the rest went how = nobody of us expected:=20 Maybe you don't know, but we all continue to use these not appropriate = channels to comunicate: other ML, mails, chats, there is an uprisal not = only from some staff members, but much more from the users against new = politics of the new leaders and staff. See it on the local sites, come = to visit please envolution.it, comments, forums, users and staff members = that compromise themeselves with their companies to follow envolution = project, in confidence, believed in it, and now see unknown names = making rules in an afternoon on saturday on august between them, 4-5 new = staff men.=20 Is it not a signal for you all, and much more for you, Zoom, you're in = it since some months, that some supports left, other are discussing to = leave, developers banned, other censored...... has it never happened = before? OK, maybe we are all foolish and childish: but you, is your = coscience clear? Let's then make a saint of you..... I work on open source because i like to do it with people, with whom I = work fine and in confidence ( this word is the reason of all happened): = so all of us spent their free time on this project, between friends: I = don't remember a flame between staff members nor resignments on = envolution.....Now I don't have this feeling: I don't want to work under = the command of unknown people, I don't do this neither in my private = job....you decide new rules about ENISS (you all know what it is?) = without hearing who was working on it, only after a meeting between you = 4-5 new team.....don't be surprised if people called you = dispotic....that's not the way to handle and coordinate a comunity that = is used to work in freedom and CONFIDENCE. I don't want to start flames with nobody, this mail is only another = trying to make you understand why this all is happening, but maybe Zoom, = the laywer, will find an offensive word or statement in this mail and = build all the defence on that single word and not on the sense of = discussion....we hoped at least on you, who knows how envo works, but = you seemed to be elsewhere..... This is my resignment from doc manger, but I think, you decided it = before, since you cancelled all positions from the site.... But I will continue in envolution.it staff, with the other staff and the = thousands of members, in harmony and CONFIDENCE. Best regards, Angelo Gagliani staff envolution.it |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-04 17:12:05
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On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 10:13, gagl wrote: > Hi, I'm capretta: > I was doc manger before, And you still are if you want to be doc manager. > I'm in staff of envolution.it and was working on the eNDP (eNvolution > Documentation Project): maybe the new MP and all the new 4 developers > (nothing personal....) and alive-again founders don't know, but Zoom > knows how things went in this year and what has been stated and > created. > You maybe ask what's going on now with all "TiMax followers" as > someone wrote on this ML.... > Ok, many things changed, and you new staff seem to be the only that > doesn't understand: maybe if you read ML of the last year you would > understand more how we were organized, not always by written rules: We learned from the meetig on Aug 2 that our membership wants written guidelines and rules to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again. Had those guidleines and rule been written and published on the website then finding them and understandiong them would have been very easy and a lot of this mess could have been avoided. > > THIS COMUNITY WORKED AND GROWED AND WAS RULED MOSTLY BY CONFIDENCE. Still does! Just because some people don't have that confidence doesn't mean all members of the community don't have it. If you gave it a fair chance to get started in the first place with the new PM and domain transfers then I suspect that most of these problems could have been minimized as well. > And this politics, the best one in Open source voluntary projects, > worked fine: because we had a PM that left us free to create and > develop on little projects, made by groups, with personal contacts, > other ML, with all tools we needed, but we had ALWAYS support, > reliance and respect on and by our MP. No freedons have been removed from anyone! > Evreything was reported to him, who was the center of all single > projects. No PM is the center of Envolution! Thats a fact! The center of Envolution is it's entire community not just one person. > We call it coordination and organization if needed: that's what a PM > has to do. Yes thats right...and that is what ApathyBoy is trying to do. > Nearly 12000 users, have you seen our Forums on envo.it? I am sure your statistic are quite active. But envo.it is only part of the whole...not the whole itself. And as such no single part of the community should dictate to the rest what happens. > our Statistics? All the users asked, helped in making better this > CMS: they feel it, and had confidence in us, and we had in them. The > staff tried then to satisfy these needs of the users, and > spontaneously things were developed and bugs fixed: that's a comunity, > based on confidence and respect. Respect was not demonstrated to ApathyBoy in the first days of this change. If a community wants to talk about respect they need to be prepared to start showing it as well. Some members of envo.it are on a campaign to slander ApathyBoy by calling him a Nazi and one individual called him Hitler. While you may think this is proper lanaguage in your culture you seem to have forgotten that your culture is not the only one out there. In most societies calling someone a Nazi or Hilter is unforgivable. > This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how > things work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works > and he showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and > then programming the future. First of all ApathyBoy knows exactly how evnolution works. He was a primary developer of Envoulution from the beginning. And in fact was at one time jjst prior to Max becoming the PM being considered by all of us to be the lead developer back then! Since I created the election process and Max, Brian, and Brandon approved of it I no what I am talking about. > > He managed only, until now, to make a nonsense vision, that we, from > the italian support side, haven't translated, because it cracks the > promises and the expectations of the 12000 users we have, thinking: > maybe he stepped on a bullshit, how we say in italy. Then the rest > went how nobody of us expected: The published vision was followed by ApathyBoy. No other vision exists. Ive asked for someone to provide it over and over again so we can review it...but no one seems to have any clue where this vision resides. > Maybe you don't know, but we all continue to use these not appropriate > channels to comunicate: other ML, mails, chats, there is an uprisal > not only from some staff members, but much more from the users against > new politics of the new leaders and staff. What you and your constituants do is your business. But Envolution is official only when it is open to peer review and public viewing. That will never change and is not negotiable. > See it on the local sites, come to visit please envolution.it, > comments, forums, users and staff members that compromise themeselves > with their companies to follow envolution project, in confidence, > believed in it, and now see unknown names making rules in an > afternoon on saturday on august between them, 4-5 new staff men. > Is it not a signal for you all, and much more for you, Zoom, you're in > it since some months, that some supports left, other are discussing to > leave, developers banned, other censored...... has it never happened > before? OK, maybe we are all foolish and childish: but you, is your > coscience clear? Let's then make a saint of you..... When hotility ceases I may visit envolution.it. But as long as all this talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement Italaian support site in needed. > I work on open source because i like to do it with people, with whom I > work fine and in confidence ( this word is the reason of all > happened): so all of us spent their free time on this project, between > friends: I don't remember a flame between staff members nor > resignments on envolution.....Now I don't have this feeling: I don't > want to work under the command of unknown people, I don't do this > neither in my private job....you decide new rules about ENISS (you all > know what it is?) without hearing who was working on it, only after a > meeting between you 4-5 new team.....don't be surprised if people > called you dispotic....that's not the way to handle and coordinate a > comunity that is used to work in freedom and CONFIDENCE. Freedom doesn't mean there isn't guidelies. I get the impression you want the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want and call it official Envolution business. That will never work. There has to be guidelines and all community memebrs were invited to the meeting on Aug 2 to give their inout...if you decided not to come then you have no right to complain about it now. > I don't want to start flames with nobody, this mail is only another > trying to make you understand why this all is happening, but maybe > Zoom, the laywer, will find an offensive word or statement in this > mail and build all the defence on that single word and not on the > sense of discussion....we hoped at least on you, who knows how envo > works, but you seemed to be elsewhere..... > This is my resignment from doc manger, but I think, you decided it > before, since you cancelled all positions from the site.... > But I will continue in envolution.it staff, with the other staff and > the thousands of members, in harmony and CONFIDENCE. > Best regards, > Angelo Gagliani > staff envolution.it I respect your decision even though I believe it was made in error. Zoom |
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From: <Chr...@t-...> - 2003-08-04 21:11:44
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No, no, it's to less! I'm writing this, because I don't want to get this desaster bigger. Please read more... Am Mon, 2003-08-04 um 19.10 Scott Kindley wrote in reply to gagl: > We learned from the meetig on Aug 2 that our membership wants written > guidelines and rules to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again. I have read that log completly and what is called "our membership or "our community" has been about 8, maybe all in all 10 people over 3 or 3 1/2 hours, but never more than 4 or five people at a time at least and mostly 3 people who claimed "Organization of the Internation Support Sites" in the last half hour. For me and others this happened all to fast. I have been just 7 days in hollidays and on Sunday morning a thought a horse is kicking my head. (Beside, most european countries are having holliday now). > Had those guidleines and rule been written and published on the website > then finding them and understandiong them would have been very easy and > a lot of this mess could have been avoided. Or it could has been experienced, by following and understanding our confidence, which can been seen in this mailinglists archiv. For example, Zoom, You will remember, when I stopped activly a starting flame between somebody and You... (doesn't matter here who, You will remember or find it), which has had its origin on eNvo.de.I respected You as a founder, do You remember? The following of Your passages I will not citate. But in short: We shouldn't start to separate people by who has confidence or not, selfunderstanding language, nationality etc. We have to respect it! Right?! > No PM is the center of Envolution! Thats a fact! The center of > Envolution is it's entire community not just one person. And the communities center IS the PM in order of the founder board, so easy :) > > We call it coordination and organization if needed: that's what a PM > > has to do. > > Yes thats right...and that is what ApathyBoy is trying to do. Not personal, the difficulty is, that it looks to most people I know, like an overtaking. Sorry for that, but now only very well understood diplomacy can track the cow from ice, as we call it in germany.;) > I am sure your statistic are quite active. But envo.it is only part of > the whole...not the whole itself. And as such no single part of the > community should dictate to the rest what happens. Never I have had the feeling, that eNvo.it dictates or trys to dictate the rest. No diplomatic words of wisdom! > Respect was not demonstrated to ApathyBoy in the first days of this > change. If a community wants to talk about respect they need to be > prepared to start showing it as well. > > Some members of envo.it are on a campaign to slander ApathyBoy by > calling him a Nazi and one individual called him Hitler. While you may > think this is proper lanaguage in your culture you seem to have > forgotten that your culture is not the only one out there. In most > societies calling someone a Nazi or Hilter is unforgivable. I'm from Germany, ok?! And this foolish propaganda, which is coming up inflationaryly is in no way acceptable for any society and any human beeing. And we shouldn't use this expression to close with any eNvo domain or support site or what else. (Just a few words praying for diplomatic wisdom ;) ) > > This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how > > things work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works > > and he showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and > > then programming the future. Wouldn't it have been better, he would have been seen it before? Why You didn't make a temporary solution for Max designation? > First of all ApathyBoy knows exactly how evnolution works. He was a > primary developer of Envoulution from the beginning. And in fact was at > one time jjst prior to Max becoming the PM being considered by all of us > to be the lead developer back then! Since I created the election process > and Max, Brian, and Brandon approved of it I no what I am talking about. Ok, no doubt, I don't no anything about that, I believe it. But we stated in our vision and road map http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=listpages&subid=2, which I translated two weeks ago to german, that eNvolution (You see how I write eNvolution?) is not only development, but community. To know eNvo, You have to know the community. This is an externals fate. Ask just 2000 registered eNvo users who is Apathyboy, how many would know?! eNvolution is not only development, FLQDs URL's, IP's, design etc. It's important, but without community it's nothing better than known other systems. I'm absolutly shure, that community is the hardest job of all to get to work. A primary developer is a primary developer, but that doesn't mean, that he would be a primary project leader also, if he has no envolved capabilities in interacting with living humans. Maybe Apathyboy has, I don't know him, but then these capabilities should be used 120% immidiatly. > What you and your constituants do is your business. But Envolution is > official only when it is open to peer review and public viewing. That > will never change and is not negotiable. So You shouldn't start closed, rapid politics also, so easy! > When hotility ceases I may visit envolution.it. But as long as all this > talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized > officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement > Italaian support site in needed. Tss, tss, tss... > Freedom doesn't mean there isn't guidelies. I get the impression you > want the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want and call it > official Envolution business. That will never work. There has to be > guidelines and all community memebrs were invited to the meeting on Aug > 2 to give their inout...if you decided not to come then you have no > right to complain about it now. Is that Your definite truth? I consider not to start with such words. Again, i.e. me, I didn't have had a minimum chance to take part in that meeting. Others I know also. > > Best regards, > > Angelo Gagliani > > staff envolution.it from gatoNero, eNvolution.de also PS:: Remember, that all my lines are meant constructive! |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-04 22:02:05
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On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 16:09, Christoph Schwaeppe wrote: > No, no, it's to less! I'm writing this, because I don't want to get this > desaster bigger. Please read more... Im reading and listening! > > Am Mon, 2003-08-04 um 19.10 Scott Kindley wrote in reply to gagl: > > We learned from the meetig on Aug 2 that our membership wants written > > guidelines and rules to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again. > I have read that log completly and what is called "our membership or > "our community" has been about 8, maybe all in all 10 people over 3 or 3 > 1/2 hours, but never more than 4 or five people at a time at least and > mostly 3 people who claimed "Organization of the Internation Support > Sites" in the last half hour. Not clear what you meant here, but the meeting was announced in advance and plenty of time was provided to allow people to attend. > > For me and others this happened all to fast. I have been just 7 days in > hollidays and on Sunday morning a thought a horse is kicking my head. > (Beside, most european countries are having holliday now). > > > Had those guidleines and rule been written and published on the website > > then finding them and understandiong them would have been very easy and > > a lot of this mess could have been avoided. > > Or it could has been experienced, by following and understanding our > confidence, which can been seen in this mailinglists archiv. Consider that guidelines, rules, API's, RFC's, roadmaps,and other formal statements of policy and direction ARE writen down in buisness, entertainment, and yes even sotftware development it is inconcevable that you would assert that we should leave it all up to trust or confidence. The very fact there are problems now proves that leaving it up to confidence or experience does NOT work. > For > example, Zoom, You will remember, when I stopped activly a starting > flame between somebody and You... (doesn't matter here who, You will > remember or find it), which has had its origin on eNvo.de.I respected > You as a founder, do You remember? > Theres been so many flames I don't remeber...but I'll conceed for the sake of your example. > The following of Your passages I will not citate. But in short: > > We shouldn't start to separate people by who has confidence or not, > selfunderstanding language, nationality etc. We have to respect it! > Right?! > I can assure you that is not a quote from me! > > No PM is the center of Envolution! Thats a fact! The center of > > Envolution is it's entire community not just one person. > And the communities center IS the PM in order of the founder board, so > easy :) > > > > We call it coordination and organization if needed: that's what a PM > > > has to do. > > > > Yes thats right...and that is what ApathyBoy is trying to do. > Not personal, the difficulty is, that it looks to most people I know, > like an overtaking. Sorry for that, but now only very well understood > diplomacy can track the cow from ice, as we call it in germany.;) > How could anything have been "overtaken" when it was voluntarily given to me? I tried to convince Max to staty and just name Stefan the PM...but Max said he didn't want to do that. He insisted that all the domains and the PM job be handled by someone else so he could do his own projects. > > I am sure your statistic are quite active. But envo.it is only part of > > the whole...not the whole itself. And as such no single part of the > > community should dictate to the rest what happens. > Never I have had the feeling, that eNvo.it dictates or trys to dictate > the rest. No diplomatic words of wisdom! > We simply disagree then. > > Respect was not demonstrated to ApathyBoy in the first days of this > > change. If a community wants to talk about respect they need to be > > prepared to start showing it as well. > > > > Some members of envo.it are on a campaign to slander ApathyBoy by > > calling him a Nazi and one individual called him Hitler. While you may > > think this is proper lanaguage in your culture you seem to have > > forgotten that your culture is not the only one out there. In most > > societies calling someone a Nazi or Hilter is unforgivable. > I'm from Germany, ok?! And this foolish propaganda, which is coming up > inflationaryly is in no way acceptable for any society and any human > beeing. And we shouldn't use this expression to close with any eNvo > domain or support site or what else. (Just a few words praying for > diplomatic wisdom ;) ) > I am glad to see that you do not approve of using those terms. However those terms ARE being used on envolution.it and the use of those foolish and evil terms is being allowed to continue by the webmaster of Envolution.it ... even after he has been informed of it and shown the URL's containing the offensive remarks. Until those remarks are removed and the webmaster of envoltuion.it enforces a policy preventing the characterization of ANY people as Nazi's or Hitler there will be no recognition of envolution.it's existance on Envolution Project servers. The URL showing at least one instance of ApathyBoy being characterized as both a Nazi and Hitler is here: http://www.envolution.it/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=338&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 The offending remarks that were posted in the form of comments at envolution.com have already been removed. The IRC comments made characterizing ApathyBoy as Hitler have been arcived and the offending person was k-lined from ever using IRC at irc.envolution.com The only words of wisdom concerning this issue is for someone tel explain to Max that he should prevent hate statements from appearing on envolution.it...especially if he really respects other cultures. > > > This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how > > > things work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works > > > and he showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and > > > then programming the future. > Wouldn't it have been better, he would have been seen it before? Why You > didn't make a temporary solution for Max designation? > I don't undertand what you mean by temporary solution for Max designation? > > First of all ApathyBoy knows exactly how evnolution works. He was a > > primary developer of Envoulution from the beginning. And in fact was at > > one time jjst prior to Max becoming the PM being considered by all of us > > to be the lead developer back then! Since I created the election process > > and Max, Brian, and Brandon approved of it I no what I am talking about. > Ok, no doubt, I don't no anything about that, I believe it. But we > stated in our vision and road map > http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=listpages&subid=2, which I translated two weeks ago to german, that eNvolution (You see how I write eNvolution?) is not only development, but community. To know eNvo, You have to know the community. This is an externals fate. Ask just 2000 registered eNvo users who is Apathyboy, how many would know?! eNvolution is not only development, FLQDs URL's, IP's, design etc. It's important, but without community it's nothing better than known other systems. I'm absolutly shure, that community is the hardest job of all to get to work. A primary developer is a primary developer, but that doesn't mean, that he would be a primary project leader also, if he has no envolved capabilities in interacting with living humans. Maybe Apathyboy has, I don't know him, but then these capabilities should be used 120% immidiatly. > Who knows and who doesn't know ApathyBoy is irrelivant. He was appointed as PM by me. I have that right and I excercised it. I decided on ApathyBoy for three reasons. 1) He is competant coder. 2) He is a good person. 3) He has the experience Envolution needs to move forward. > > What you and your constituants do is your business. But Envolution is > > official only when it is open to peer review and public viewing. That > > will never change and is not negotiable. > So You shouldn't start closed, rapid politics also, so easy! > It's always been that way with Envolution and it always will be. It was founded on being toatally open and it is my responsibility to see that it stays open. Envolution IS open totally and I have learbed that Max had created closed development lists while I was chastizing PostNuke for having a seperate closed development list. This was wrong of Max to do, and I objected to it immediatley upon finding out about it. Max broke his agreement with the other three founders by creating a closed development model using closed envolution development email lists. I have email to prove it if required. I also have chat logs showing Max asking me what I have against closed development. If you would like to read them for yourself ask me and I will post them. > > When hotility ceases I may visit envolution.it. But as long as all this > > talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized > > officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement > > Italaian support site in needed. > Tss, tss, tss... > So are you saying you support people characterizing Envolution staff as Nazi's and Hitler? > > Freedom doesn't mean there isn't guidelies. I get the impression you > > want the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want and call it > > official Envolution business. That will never work. There has to be > > guidelines and all community memebrs were invited to the meeting on Aug > > 2 to give their inout...if you decided not to come then you have no > > right to complain about it now. > Is that Your definite truth? I consider not to start with such words. > I have no problem starting with those words because they are the truth. If you didn't show up to the meeting then you have no right to complain about it afterward. > Again, i.e. me, I didn't have had a minimum chance to take part in that > meeting. Others I know also. > > > Best regards, > > > Angelo Gagliani > > > staff envolution.it > from gatoNero, eNvolution.de also > > PS:: Remember, that all my lines are meant constructive! > You had the same chance to show up as anyone else. It was announced via this email list and on envolution.com far enough in advance for you to attend. You sig says your a staffer at envolution.it and encolution.de...both Stefan and Max knew about the meeting are you saying that they did not inform the German and Italian communities about the meeting as well? If they also did not post the news then I would be asking them why they did not inform their respective communities as well. Zoom |
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From: <Chr...@t-...> - 2003-08-04 22:53:07
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Am Die, 2003-08-05 um 00.00 schrieb Scott Kindley: > On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 16:09, Christoph Schwaeppe wrote: > > No, no, it's to less! I'm writing this, because I don't want to get this > > desaster bigger. Please read more... > > Im reading and listening! > > > > > Am Mon, 2003-08-04 um 19.10 Scott Kindley wrote in reply to gagl: > > > We learned from the meetig on Aug 2 that our membership wants written > > > guidelines and rules to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again. > > I have read that log completly and what is called "our membership or > > "our community" has been about 8, maybe all in all 10 people over 3 or 3 > > 1/2 hours, but never more than 4 or five people at a time at least and > > mostly 3 people who claimed "Organization of the Internation Support > > Sites" in the last half hour. > > Not clear what you meant here, but the meeting was announced in advance > and plenty of time was provided to allow people to attend. > Not for me and others also (WindMeUp, Naphta...), believe me! And maximum 8 visitors can only be a part of the community, but not the community. > Consider that guidelines, rules, API's, RFC's, roadmaps,and other formal > statements of policy and direction ARE writen down in buisness, > entertainment, and yes even sotftware development it is inconcevable > that you would assert that we should leave it all up to trust or > confidence. The very fact there are problems now proves that leaving it > up to confidence or experience does NOT work. Please for my understanding explain me, what didn't work! > > We shouldn't start to separate people by who has confidence or not, > > selfunderstanding language, nationality etc. We have to respect it! > > Right?! > > > > I can assure you that is not a quote from me! This is a question. > > > No PM is the center of Envolution! Thats a fact! The center of > > > Envolution is it's entire community not just one person. > > And the communities center IS the PM in order of the founder board, so > > easy :) > > > > > > We call it coordination and organization if needed: that's what a PM > > > > has to do. > > > > > > Yes thats right...and that is what ApathyBoy is trying to do. > > Not personal, the difficulty is, that it looks to most people I know, > > like an overtaking. Sorry for that, but now only very well understood > > diplomacy can track the cow from ice, as we call it in germany.;) > > > > How could anything have been "overtaken" when it was voluntarily given > to me? I tried to convince Max to staty and just name Stefan the > PM...but Max said he didn't want to do that. He insisted that all the > domains and the PM job be handled by someone else so he could do his own > projects. Yes, I heard that this hasn't been a plesant time. But I discrpt the situation we now have. > > > I am sure your statistic are quite active. But envo.it is only part of > > > the whole...not the whole itself. And as such no single part of the > > > community should dictate to the rest what happens. > > Never I have had the feeling, that eNvo.it dictates or trys to dictate > > the rest. No diplomatic words of wisdom! > > > > We simply disagree then. No problem! > > > Respect was not demonstrated to ApathyBoy in the first days of this > > > change. If a community wants to talk about respect they need to be > > > prepared to start showing it as well. > > > > > > Some members of envo.it are on a campaign to slander ApathyBoy by > > > calling him a Nazi and one individual called him Hitler. While you may > > > think this is proper lanaguage in your culture you seem to have > > > forgotten that your culture is not the only one out there. In most > > > societies calling someone a Nazi or Hilter is unforgivable. > > I'm from Germany, ok?! And this foolish propaganda, which is coming up > > inflationaryly is in no way acceptable for any society and any human > > beeing. And we shouldn't use this expression to close with any eNvo > > domain or support site or what else. (Just a few words praying for > > diplomatic wisdom ;) ) > > > > I am glad to see that you do not approve of using those terms. However > those terms ARE being used on envolution.it and the use of those foolish > and evil terms is being allowed to continue by the webmaster of > Envolution.it ... even after he has been informed of it and shown the > URL's containing the offensive remarks. > > Until those remarks are removed and the webmaster of envoltuion.it > enforces a policy preventing the characterization of ANY people as > Nazi's or Hitler there will be no recognition of envolution.it's > existance on Envolution Project servers. > > The URL showing at least one instance of ApathyBoy being characterized > as both a Nazi and Hitler is here: > > http://www.envolution.it/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=338&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 > Hm, I disagree with this expessions also, I said before, but what I also see is, that prominent members of envolution damned that (with my poor italian). I prefere public damning of that, than a fool, who assassinates in the dark. On the other hand the new admin message on eNvolution.com doesn't influence to much reliance, specially if I would be a newbie "Whow, what's going on there behind the walls" > > > > This until last week: we expected the new PM would first see how > > > > things work (because Apatyboy has no idea about how envolution works > > > > and he showed it with his behaviour), then speak with everybody, and > > > > then programming the future. > > Wouldn't it have been better, he would have been seen it before? Why You > > didn't make a temporary solution for Max designation? > > > > I don't undertand what you mean by temporary solution for Max > designation? Yes, until all informations are collected, two or three weeks. It's vacation time. > > > > First of all ApathyBoy knows exactly how evnolution works. He was a > > > primary developer of Envoulution from the beginning. And in fact was at > > > one time jjst prior to Max becoming the PM being considered by all of us > > > to be the lead developer back then! Since I created the election process > > > and Max, Brian, and Brandon approved of it I no what I am talking about. > > Ok, no doubt, I don't no anything about that, I believe it. But we > > stated in our vision and road map > > http://www.envolution.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=listpages&subid=2, which I translated two weeks ago to german, that eNvolution (You see how I write eNvolution?) is not only development, but community. To know eNvo, You have to know the community. This is an externals fate. Ask just 2000 registered eNvo users who is Apathyboy, how many would know?! eNvolution is not only development, FLQDs URL's, IP's, design etc. It's important, but without community it's nothing better than known other systems. I'm absolutly shure, that community is the hardest job of all to get to work. A primary developer is a primary developer, but that doesn't mean, that he would be a primary project leader also, if he has no envolved capabilities in interacting with living humans. Maybe Apathyboy has, I don't know him, but then these capabilities should be used 120% immidiatly. > > > > Who knows and who doesn't know ApathyBoy is irrelivant. He was appointed > as PM by me. I have that right and I excercised it. I decided on > ApathyBoy for three reasons. > > 1) He is competant coder. > > 2) He is a good person. > > 3) He has the experience Envolution needs to move forward. > Ok. I'm not able to doubt this and I have to accept it. But how it took place hasn't been very ably (clever). > > > What you and your constituants do is your business. But Envolution is > > > official only when it is open to peer review and public viewing. That > > > will never change and is not negotiable. > > So You shouldn't start closed, rapid politics also, so easy! > > > > It's always been that way with Envolution and it always will be. It was > founded on being toatally open and it is my responsibility to see that > it stays open. Envolution IS open totally and I have learbed that Max > had created closed development lists while I was chastizing PostNuke for > having a seperate closed development list. This was wrong of Max to do, > and I objected to it immediatley upon finding out about it. Max broke > his agreement with the other three founders by creating a closed > development model using closed envolution development email lists. I > have email to prove it if required. I also have chat logs showing Max > asking me what I have against closed development. If you would like to > read them for yourself ask me and I will post them. > Not necassary, I know it. One reason has been, that pn took eNvo-Code, while we have been in bugfixing. > > > When hotility ceases I may visit envolution.it. But as long as all this > > > talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized > > > officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement > > > Italaian support site in needed. > > Tss, tss, tss... > > > > So are you saying you support people characterizing Envolution staff as > Nazi's and Hitler? Shure not, and that very clear! Maybe my fault, but I believe better is to try to educate people than bann them immidiatly.Sorry for that ;) > > > Freedom doesn't mean there isn't guidelies. I get the impression you > > > want the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want and call it > > > official Envolution business. That will never work. There has to be > > > guidelines and all community memebrs were invited to the meeting on Aug > > > 2 to give their inout...if you decided not to come then you have no > > > right to complain about it now. > > Is that Your definite truth? I consider not to start with such words. > > > > I have no problem starting with those words because they are the truth. > If you didn't show up to the meeting then you have no right to complain > about it afterward. > > > Again, i.e. me, I didn't have had a minimum chance to take part in that > > meeting. Others I know also. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Angelo Gagliani > > > > staff envolution.it > > from gatoNero, eNvolution.de also > > > > PS:: Remember, that all my lines are meant constructive! > > > You had the same chance to show up as anyone else. It was announced via > this email list and on envolution.com far enough in advance for you to > attend. You sig says your a staffer at envolution.it and > encolution.de...both Stefan and Max knew about the meeting are you > saying that they did not inform the German and Italian communities about > the meeting as well? If they also did not post the news then I would be > asking them why they did not inform their respective communities as > well. > > Zoom It's very simple. Karsten stays in holidays and i did also. I couldn't find any intenet cafe at that place, where I have been. Christoph aka gatoNero |
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From: gagl <ca...@fr...> - 2003-08-05 07:44:28
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hi to all, I sent today my resignment letter as news to envo.com to inform comunity = about my motivations of leaving. As answered by Zoom, it has no offensive content and does not contain = lies. So I hope it will be pubblished, as Timax resign news was = pubblished and as I feel to motivate to the comunity my decision. Best regards, capretta, staff of envolution.it |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-04 16:52:24
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On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 07:34, Webmaster wrote: > I present myself, CoolOs, I were the webmaster of envo-Canada. > I say well were bus has my great surprise this site does not exist > more. While further excavating I see that that of France has undergoes > the same fate. > The least of the things would have been to inform before closed sites. > Cheer for the French-speaking support > CoolOs Hello, I am sorry for any interruption in service. Max did not inform me during the transfer of any domains to forward other than www.germany.envoltuion.com. If you can provide the FQDN ot IP address of the Canadian-French support site I will correct that and forward it right away. Zoom |
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From: TiMax <ma...@em...> - 2003-08-04 17:17:55
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On 04 Aug 2003 11:51:33 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: >=A0 =A0On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 07:34, Webmaster wrote: >=A0 =A0>=A0I present myself, CoolOs, I were the webmaster of envo-Canada. >=A0 =A0>=A0I say well were bus has my great surprise this site does not exist >=A0 =A0>=A0more. While further excavating I see that that of France has= undergoes >=A0 =A0>=A0the same fate. >=A0 =A0>=A0The least of the things would have been to inform before closed= sites. >=A0 =A0>=A0Cheer for the French-speaking support >=A0 =A0>=A0CoolOs > >=A0 =A0Hello, > >=A0 =A0I am sorry for any interruption in service. Max did not inform me= during >=A0 =A0the transfer of any domains to forward other than >=A0 =A0www.germany.envoltuion.com. > >=A0 =A0If you can provide the FQDN ot IP address of the Canadian-French= support >=A0 =A0site I will correct that and forward it right away. > >=A0 =A0Zoom Is your ip Zoom ! You have eNvolution Canada and France backup data and db sql in your server= !!! I give you all backups and you have tranfered domains name in your server. Max |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-04 17:35:59
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On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 12:17, TiMax wrote: > On 04 Aug 2003 11:51:33 -0500, Scott Kindley wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 07:34, Webmaster wrote: > > > I present myself, CoolOs, I were the webmaster of envo-Canada. > > > I say well were bus has my great surprise this site does not exist > > > more. While further excavating I see that that of France has undergoes > > > the same fate. > > > The least of the things would have been to inform before closed sites. > > > Cheer for the French-speaking support > > > CoolOs > > > > Hello, > > > > I am sorry for any interruption in service. Max did not inform me during > > the transfer of any domains to forward other than > > www.germany.envoltuion.com. > > > > If you can provide the FQDN ot IP address of the Canadian-French support > > site I will correct that and forward it right away. > > > > Zoom > > Is your ip Zoom ! > > You have eNvolution Canada and France backup data and db sql in your server !!! > > I give you all backups and you have tranfered domains name in your server. > > Max > Right Max...I am figuring it out now. But initially it was not clear to me that multiple sites were being used on your servers. I understood that the international support sites were being run on seperate servers by individual people. You handle envolution.it and Stefan has envolution.de and RDW has ebvolution.be so I figured the same was treu for the other domains as well. So if all I have to do is add the sql dumps then I'll fix this right away. Zoom |
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From: gagl <ca...@fr...> - 2003-08-04 18:33:18
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Hi Zoom, I don't ask for comments: this is my decision with those motivations: I = talked, as we always do, with others about this in these days. You are = very able to speak, you're surely a good lawyer, but maybe understand = things people say, there is no civil suit to win this time: members = left, supports also. And this is very bad: "But as long as all this talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement Italaian support site in needed. " If someone just say personal things, that you maybe misunderstood, you = ban a whole comunity? YOU HAVE problems, Zoom, with italian comunity: = 12000 members, OKAY. NO flames, think at all, Zoom,=20 nothing happens for nothing. Best regards, capretta, staff of envolution.it |
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From: Scott K. <sc...@ki...> - 2003-08-04 21:28:04
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On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 13:34, gagl wrote: > Hi Zoom, > I don't ask for comments: this is my decision with those motivations: > I talked, as we always do, with others about this in these days. You > are very able to speak, you're surely a good lawyer, but maybe > understand things people say, there is no civil suit to win this time: > members left, supports also. Not everyone has left. In fact most have stayed. > And this is very bad: "But as long as all this > talk of Nazi's and Hitler remains envolution.it will not be recognized > officially as an Envolution CMS resource. I will find a replacement > Italaian support site in needed. " > If someone just say personal things, that you maybe misunderstood, you > ban a whole comunity? YOU HAVE problems, Zoom, with italian comunity: > 12000 members, OKAY. I never said a whole community was responsible. But I did point out that these unforgivable comments are posted all over envolution.it for public view so it is not just personal comments made to people privately. It was also published on envolution.com by the same people and it was removed because of the references to Nazi's and Hitler. Also a whole community was not banned either. Only two individuals who keep using these unforgivable references to Nazi's and Hitler to describe Envolution staff were banned. They were also not banned until they were asked politley to stop using the offending and cruel terms. When they refused to abide by the Terms of Use statement that has been published on Envolution.com from the very beginning, then, and only then were they banned. So NO. I do not have problems with Itlaian community or anyone else. I have repeatedly stated that, yet you insist on fabricating a notion that I and others at Envolution are anti-Italian. The fact is I am not. I welcome all people from all cultures, backgrounds, and nationalities.And because I respect ALL communities any references to Envolution staff or members by ANYONE using those evil terms will not be tolerated or accepted. PERIOD. So envolution.it will never be accepted as an official Envolution resource until those evil and unforgivable references to Nazi's and Hitler as descriptions to Envolution people is removed and prevented from happening again. It's not negotiable. Either remove them or you can kiss any relationship with the Envolution Project goodbye. > NO flames, think at all, Zoom, > nothing happens for nothing. > Best regards, > capretta, > staff of envolution.it > My responses are not flames. And I didn't consider your email above to be a flame either. But I do think you have information based on misconception and bad translation. I also do not believe that you understand how terrible it is to allow or permit members of envolution.it to post references to Nazi's and Hitler as descriptions of Envolution staff. Zoom |
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