From: Eduardo L. (Etrunko) <eb...@gm...> - 2012-09-20 17:38:48
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) > <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>> then it's an option. >>> >>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>> message is not sufficient >>> >> >> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >> the changed files. > > you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a > changelog but of its layout ! > If being stupid means that I value more the content than the form than you can consider myself one of the most stupid of all times. -- Eduardo de Barros Lima ◤✠◢ eb...@gm... |
From: Iván B. <sac...@gm...> - 2012-09-20 17:42:31
|
2012/9/20 Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) <eb...@gm...>: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>>> then it's an option. >>>> >>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>>> message is not sufficient >>>> >>> >>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>> the changed files. >> >> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >> changelog but of its layout ! >> > > If being stupid means that I value more the content than the form than > you can consider myself one of the most stupid of all times. Name calling when it involves discomfitor, TAsn or me is usually fun because we don't really mean it, but outside of those contexts it's more deterring to the conversation than anything else. > > -- > Eduardo de Barros Lima ◤✠◢ > eb...@gm... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enl...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel |
From: Eduardo L. (Etrunko) <eb...@gm...> - 2012-09-20 17:40:39
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Leandro Pereira <le...@pr...> wrote: >>> On 09/20/2012 03:28 AM, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: >>>> ah, if only we could do changelogs sanely like every other changelog in the >>>> entire universe... >>> >>> I honestly thought Edje was stable enough that it didn't have recent >>> changes -- and since ChangeLogs are traditionally written with newer >>> entries on top, I just added mine there. >>> >>> I'll be more careful next time. I'll still mutter something about >>> ChangeLogs being useless given we have commit messages (which can be as >>> long as needed to explain stuff, is easier to merge, is as good a cold >>> beer on a hot day, yadda yadda yadda), though. >> >> +1 to drop ChangeLog entirely. > > Here is the difference between you and me: > > you claim that YOU don't need a changelog because there are svn > commits, so every people on earth just have to install svn or look at > a slow websvn to see the changes, even those which are just "oupsie!" > etc... > > me, who think that an average user of a lib should not need to > install svn (or git or etc...) or use a slow websvn to look quickly at > a changelog file. And I say that because it was in that very > situation. > > You think only about yourself, i thnk about everyone. > > It takes time to write entries but i'm not lazy. I take that time, on > my very limited free time. > We are all talking about developers here. Mr. Joe Average user will not use unstable software from the control system, but the stable one released with the generated changelog, be it manually or automatically generated. -- Eduardo de Barros Lima ◤✠◢ eb...@gm... |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-20 17:42:49
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Leandro Pereira <le...@pr...> wrote: >>> On 09/20/2012 03:28 AM, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: >>>> ah, if only we could do changelogs sanely like every other changelog in the >>>> entire universe... >>> >>> I honestly thought Edje was stable enough that it didn't have recent >>> changes -- and since ChangeLogs are traditionally written with newer >>> entries on top, I just added mine there. >>> >>> I'll be more careful next time. I'll still mutter something about >>> ChangeLogs being useless given we have commit messages (which can be as >>> long as needed to explain stuff, is easier to merge, is as good a cold >>> beer on a hot day, yadda yadda yadda), though. >> >> +1 to drop ChangeLog entirely. > > Here is the difference between you and me: > > you claim that YOU don't need a changelog because there are svn I and all the others responding to this thread. > commits, so every people on earth just have to install svn or look at > a slow websvn to see the changes, even those which are just "oupsie!" > etc... Why the hell the user is looking to the changelog file? He shouldn't be. It's not just me. There are plenty of successful projects out there that abandoned the stupid idea of maintaining a text file that is a copy of what we have in our VCS. And if it isn't a copy, you are requiring every single programmer to take his time to write plain useless information there that nobody will read. > > me, who think that an average user of a lib should not need to > install svn (or git or etc...) or use a slow websvn to look quickly at > a changelog file. And I say that because it was in that very > situation. Give the NEWS file to the user. Seriously, in what earth are you living on? > > You think only about yourself, i thnk about everyone. YOU think only about yourself. I have the very same reasoning other developers have, based on projects that abandoned the idea of a ChangeLog. Just write well formatted commits - who needs that information are the ones that will have git/svn/etc installed. > > It takes time to write entries but i'm not lazy. I take that time, on > my very limited free time. It's just a waste of our time. Sorry, but you need to argue better to convince the world Lucas De Marchi |
From: Vincent T. <vin...@gm...> - 2012-09-20 17:50:48
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Lucas De Marchi <luc...@pr...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lucas De Marchi >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Leandro Pereira <le...@pr...> wrote: >>>> On 09/20/2012 03:28 AM, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: >>>>> ah, if only we could do changelogs sanely like every other changelog in the >>>>> entire universe... >>>> >>>> I honestly thought Edje was stable enough that it didn't have recent >>>> changes -- and since ChangeLogs are traditionally written with newer >>>> entries on top, I just added mine there. >>>> >>>> I'll be more careful next time. I'll still mutter something about >>>> ChangeLogs being useless given we have commit messages (which can be as >>>> long as needed to explain stuff, is easier to merge, is as good a cold >>>> beer on a hot day, yadda yadda yadda), though. >>> >>> +1 to drop ChangeLog entirely. >> >> Here is the difference between you and me: >> >> you claim that YOU don't need a changelog because there are svn > > I and all the others responding to this thread. > >> commits, so every people on earth just have to install svn or look at >> a slow websvn to see the changes, even those which are just "oupsie!" >> etc... > > Why the hell the user is looking to the changelog file? He shouldn't be. you're wrong, i have examples... Not only me. > It's not just me. There are plenty of successful projects out there > that abandoned the stupid idea of maintaining a text file that is a > copy of what we have in our VCS. And if it isn't a copy, you are > requiring every single programmer to take his time to write plain > useless information there that nobody will read. > >> >> me, who think that an average user of a lib should not need to >> install svn (or git or etc...) or use a slow websvn to look quickly at >> a changelog file. And I say that because it was in that very >> situation. > > Give the NEWS file to the user. Seriously, in what earth are you living on? > >> >> You think only about yourself, i thnk about everyone. > > YOU think only about yourself. I have the very same reasoning other > developers have, based on projects that abandoned the idea of a > ChangeLog. Just write well formatted commits haaaa, here is the core of the problem. Just look at our logs, there a huge of stupid comments for commits How much time will it take to force people to write good commits comments ? Look at the time it take to force people to update correctly doc and NEWS (i don't mention changelog as you don't care) ? I had to send plethore of mails to remember people to do properly Ok, now a guy commit something with a bad comment for the commit. What will you do ? you will revert it and ask the guy to recommit it with a proper comment ? just silly Vincent - who needs that > information are the ones that will have git/svn/etc installed. > > >> >> It takes time to write entries but i'm not lazy. I take that time, on >> my very limited free time. > > > It's just a waste of our time. Sorry, but you need to argue better to > convince the world > > > Lucas De Marchi > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enl...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-20 17:54:19
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>>>> then it's an option. >>>>> >>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>>>> message is not sufficient >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>>> the changed files. >>> >>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >>> changelog but of its layout ! >> >> >> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain useless. > > ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog Eduardo doesn't work here: Excerpt from the README file in libabc (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is not a commit changelog. - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated by git, do not maintain your own. kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file node doesn't use a ChangeLog file go doesn't use a ChangeLog file pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves Just to name a few. I'm sure I could go on and on with this list. And Vincent, please stop taking it personal and insulting the others. Use "stupid" for ideas. Not people. Lucas De Marchi |
From: Vincent T. <vin...@gm...> - 2012-09-20 21:43:42
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi <luc...@pr...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>>>>> then it's an option. >>>>>> >>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>>>>> message is not sufficient >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>>>> the changed files. >>>> >>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >>>> changelog but of its layout ! >>> >>> >>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain useless. >> >> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog > > Eduardo doesn't work here: > > Excerpt from the README file in libabc > (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): > > Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed > - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know > when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes > or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is > not a commit changelog. > - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated > by git, do not maintain your own. so what ? counter-example: http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file > systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file > bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file > connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file > node doesn't use a ChangeLog file > go doesn't use a ChangeLog file > pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file > webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit > message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as many arguments as you have. > And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. Not all of changes of course. NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but that i have accpeted in that project. > > And Vincent, please stop taking it personal and insulting the others. > Use "stupid" for ideas. Not people. the conversation is heated, that's all. I'm from south of France and we are not calm people, there. His answer upset me because what he said was almost an insult to what I did in Evil's ChangeLog. But nobody noted that. So I won't apologize. Vincent |
From: Gustavo S. B. <bar...@pr...> - 2012-09-20 21:53:40
|
>> And Vincent, please stop taking it personal and insulting the others. >> Use "stupid" for ideas. Not people. > > the conversation is heated, that's all. I'm from south of France and > we are not calm people, there. His answer upset me because what he > said was almost an insult to what I did in Evil's ChangeLog. But > nobody noted that. So I won't apologize. LOL, you're almost an Italian! I KNEW IT!!!! :-) that's my troll contribution to this stupid thread -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -------------------------------------- MSN: bar...@gm... Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-21 20:21:21
Attachments:
panunzio.JPG
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On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi >>> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: >>>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >>>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>>>>>> then it's an option. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>>>>>> message is not sufficient >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>>>>> the changed files. >>>>> >>>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >>>>> changelog but of its layout ! >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain useless. >>> >>> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog >> >> Eduardo doesn't work here: >> >> Excerpt from the README file in libabc >> ( https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD ): >> >> Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed >> - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know >> when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes >> or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is >> not a commit changelog. >> - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated >> by git, do not maintain your own. > > so what ? counter-example: > > http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > >> kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> node doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> go doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> >> v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file >> webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit >> message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. > > and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as > many arguments as you have. > >> And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves > > to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: > > ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. > Not all of changes of course. > > NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API > additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big > improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the > improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what > is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I > don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but > that i have accpeted in that project. > >> >> And Vincent, please stop taking it personal and insulting the others. >> Use "stupid" for ideas. Not people. > > the conversation is heated, that's all. I'm from south of France and > we are not calm people, there. His answer upset me because what he > said was almost an insult to what I did in Evil's ChangeLog. But > nobody noted that. So I won't apologize. And I'm italian, so: [image: Inline image 1] Lucas De Marchi |
From: Carsten H. (T. R. <ra...@ra...> - 2012-09-20 23:30:03
|
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:43:36 +0200 Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> said: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> > > wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi > >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: > >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> > >>> wrote: > >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) > >>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: > >>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, > >>>>>>> then it's an option. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit > >>>>>> message is not sufficient > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain > >>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output > >>>>> the changed files. > >>>> > >>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a > >>>> changelog but of its layout ! > >>> > >>> > >>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain > >>> useless. > >> > >> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog > > > > Eduardo doesn't work here: > > > > Excerpt from the README file in libabc > > (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): > > > > Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed > > - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know > > when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes > > or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is > > not a commit changelog. > > - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated > > by git, do not maintain your own. > > so what ? counter-example: > > http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > > > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > node doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > go doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file > > > > v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file > > webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit > > message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. > > and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as > many arguments as you have. > > > And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves > > to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: > > ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. > Not all of changes of course. > > NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API > additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big > improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the > improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what > is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I > don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but > that i have accpeted in that project. i agree with vincent here fyi. the actual git or svn or cvs or whatever log is footwork. it isn't publishable data beyond being useful for day-to-day hunting of who did what. changelog is "useful publishable changes" just in the order they are done. news is something you can just blindly copy & paste into a release publication and is a summary of the important stuff. this is the convention for most cases of these files that i have seen. changelog is kind of old as it comes from a time when people mostly didnt use scms, but it got repurposed as above. eg the first time u add a feature u add it to changelog. if u then spend the next week patching and fixing the feature and maturing it, you just commit. your changelog doesnt change. neither does news as both these files are intended for digestion at the next release. you could argue that changelog as a whole is obsolete. one could argue INSTALL should be removed as frankly README handles that and it doesnt add much more info (though it is static thus no one notices). hell there is an ABOUT-NLS event that is there that we never commit but autotools insists should be there. > > > > And Vincent, please stop taking it personal and insulting the others. > > Use "stupid" for ideas. Not people. > > the conversation is heated, that's all. I'm from south of France and > we are not calm people, there. His answer upset me because what he > said was almost an insult to what I did in Evil's ChangeLog. But > nobody noted that. So I won't apologize. > > Vincent > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. > Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics > Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;258768047;13503038;j? > http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enl...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ra...@ra... |
From: Carsten H. (T. R. <ra...@ra...> - 2012-09-20 23:30:05
|
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:40:12 -0300 "Eduardo Lima (Etrunko)" <eb...@gm...> said: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> > wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lucas De Marchi > > <luc...@pr...> wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Leandro Pereira <le...@pr...> > >> wrote: > >>> On 09/20/2012 03:28 AM, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: > >>>> ah, if only we could do changelogs sanely like every other changelog in > >>>> the entire universe... > >>> > >>> I honestly thought Edje was stable enough that it didn't have recent > >>> changes -- and since ChangeLogs are traditionally written with newer > >>> entries on top, I just added mine there. > >>> > >>> I'll be more careful next time. I'll still mutter something about > >>> ChangeLogs being useless given we have commit messages (which can be as > >>> long as needed to explain stuff, is easier to merge, is as good a cold > >>> beer on a hot day, yadda yadda yadda), though. > >> > >> +1 to drop ChangeLog entirely. > > > > Here is the difference between you and me: > > > > you claim that YOU don't need a changelog because there are svn > > commits, so every people on earth just have to install svn or look at > > a slow websvn to see the changes, even those which are just "oupsie!" > > etc... > > > > me, who think that an average user of a lib should not need to > > install svn (or git or etc...) or use a slow websvn to look quickly at > > a changelog file. And I say that because it was in that very > > situation. > > > > You think only about yourself, i thnk about everyone. > > > > It takes time to write entries but i'm not lazy. I take that time, on > > my very limited free time. > > > > We are all talking about developers here. Mr. Joe Average user will > not use unstable software from the control system, but the stable one > released with the generated changelog, be it manually or automatically > generated. i guess here's the difference. NEWs and ChangeLog are intended for digestion at release time - ie sit in the tarball. the person compiling it (not a developer - packager etc.) digests these. he may use them roe package update/release notes, to see if he still needs to apply dome bugfix patch etc. etc. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ra...@ra... |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-21 18:38:20
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ra...@ra...> wrote: > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:40:12 -0300 "Eduardo Lima (Etrunko)" <eb...@gm...> > said: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >> wrote: >> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Lucas De Marchi >> > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Leandro Pereira <le...@pr...> >> >> wrote: >> >>> On 09/20/2012 03:28 AM, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: >> >>>> ah, if only we could do changelogs sanely like every other changelog in >> >>>> the entire universe... >> >>> >> >>> I honestly thought Edje was stable enough that it didn't have recent >> >>> changes -- and since ChangeLogs are traditionally written with newer >> >>> entries on top, I just added mine there. >> >>> >> >>> I'll be more careful next time. I'll still mutter something about >> >>> ChangeLogs being useless given we have commit messages (which can be as >> >>> long as needed to explain stuff, is easier to merge, is as good a cold >> >>> beer on a hot day, yadda yadda yadda), though. >> >> >> >> +1 to drop ChangeLog entirely. >> > >> > Here is the difference between you and me: >> > >> > you claim that YOU don't need a changelog because there are svn >> > commits, so every people on earth just have to install svn or look at >> > a slow websvn to see the changes, even those which are just "oupsie!" >> > etc... >> > >> > me, who think that an average user of a lib should not need to >> > install svn (or git or etc...) or use a slow websvn to look quickly at >> > a changelog file. And I say that because it was in that very >> > situation. >> > >> > You think only about yourself, i thnk about everyone. >> > >> > It takes time to write entries but i'm not lazy. I take that time, on >> > my very limited free time. >> > >> >> We are all talking about developers here. Mr. Joe Average user will >> not use unstable software from the control system, but the stable one >> released with the generated changelog, be it manually or automatically >> generated. > > i guess here's the difference. NEWs and ChangeLog are intended for digestion at > release time - ie sit in the tarball. the person compiling it (not a developer > - packager etc.) digests these. he may use them roe package update/release > notes, to see if he still needs to apply dome bugfix patch etc. etc. And I'm arguing we only need one of those. Lucas De Marchi |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-21 18:51:00
|
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ra...@ra...> wrote: > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:43:36 +0200 Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> said: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >> > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi >> >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >> >>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >> >>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >> >>>>>>> then it's an option. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >> >>>>>> message is not sufficient >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >> >>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >> >>>>> the changed files. >> >>>> >> >>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >> >>>> changelog but of its layout ! >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain >> >>> useless. >> >> >> >> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog >> > >> > Eduardo doesn't work here: >> > >> > Excerpt from the README file in libabc >> > (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): >> > >> > Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed >> > - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know >> > when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes >> > or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is >> > not a commit changelog. >> > - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated >> > by git, do not maintain your own. >> >> so what ? counter-example: >> >> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html >> >> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > node doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > go doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file >> > >> > v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file >> > webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit >> > message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. >> >> and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as >> many arguments as you have. >> >> > And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves >> >> to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: >> >> ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. >> Not all of changes of course. >> >> NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API >> additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big >> improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the >> improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what >> is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I >> don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but >> that i have accpeted in that project. > > i agree with vincent here fyi. the actual git or svn or cvs or whatever log is > footwork. it isn't publishable data beyond being useful for day-to-day hunting > of who did what. > > changelog is "useful publishable changes" just in the order they are done. that is the purpose of NEWS > > news is something you can just blindly copy & paste into a release publication > and is a summary of the important stuff. So we are maintaining the same thing, in 2 different places... NEWS and ChangeLog. It's just a change in format. > > this is the convention for most cases of these files that i have seen. > changelog is kind of old as it comes from a time when people mostly didnt use > scms, but it got repurposed as above. eg the first time u add a feature u add > it to changelog. if u then spend the next week patching and fixing the feature > and maturing it, you just commit. your changelog doesnt change. neither does > news as both these files are intended for digestion at the next release. If there's a new feature at release time it should be in NEWS file. It doesn't matter the date in which it was added. Not for whoever is packaging that stuff. > > you could argue that changelog as a whole is obsolete. one could argue INSTALL > should be removed as frankly README handles that and it doesnt add much more > info (though it is static thus no one notices). hell there is an ABOUT-NLS > event that is there that we never commit but autotools insists should be there. Remove the cruft and the unnecessary burden we have. Just because it was always done like this doesn't mean it has to continue /me stops now and thinks about who will add the ChangeLog when E17 is released Lucas De Marchi |
From: Vincent T. <vin...@gm...> - 2012-09-21 19:05:05
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On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Lucas De Marchi <luc...@pr...> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ra...@ra...> wrote: >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:43:36 +0200 Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> said: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi >>> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >>> > wrote: >>> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi >>> >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >>> >>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>> >>>>>>> then it's an option. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>> >>>>>> message is not sufficient >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>> >>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>> >>>>> the changed files. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >>> >>>> changelog but of its layout ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain >>> >>> useless. >>> >> >>> >> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog >>> > >>> > Eduardo doesn't work here: >>> > >>> > Excerpt from the README file in libabc >>> > (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): >>> > >>> > Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed >>> > - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know >>> > when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes >>> > or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is >>> > not a commit changelog. >>> > - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated >>> > by git, do not maintain your own. >>> >>> so what ? counter-example: >>> >>> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html >>> >>> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > node doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > go doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>> > >>> > v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file >>> > webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit >>> > message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. >>> >>> and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as >>> many arguments as you have. >>> >>> > And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves >>> >>> to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: >>> >>> ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. >>> Not all of changes of course. >>> >>> NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API >>> additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big >>> improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the >>> improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what >>> is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I >>> don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but >>> that i have accpeted in that project. >> >> i agree with vincent here fyi. the actual git or svn or cvs or whatever log is >> footwork. it isn't publishable data beyond being useful for day-to-day hunting >> of who did what. >> >> changelog is "useful publishable changes" just in the order they are done. > > that is the purpose of NEWS http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/NEWS-File.html#NEWS-File http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > > So we are maintaining the same thing, in 2 different places... NEWS > and ChangeLog. It's just a change in format. no, they are different. There are much more in changelog than in NEWS. > If there's a new feature at release time it should be in NEWS file. It > doesn't matter the date in which it was added. Not for whoever is > packaging that stuff. what is important is the version in which the feature is added. > Remove the cruft and the unnecessary burden we have. Just because it > was always done like this doesn't mean it has to continue as i said, i would remove the "improvements" part of NEWS. But i don't care much actually. Vincent |
From: Lucas De M. <luc...@pr...> - 2012-09-21 20:14:58
|
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Lucas De Marchi > <luc...@pr...> wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ra...@ra...> wrote: >>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:43:36 +0200 Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> said: >>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Lucas De Marchi >>>> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>>> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Lucas De Marchi >>>> >> <luc...@pr...> wrote: >>>> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Vincent Torri <vin...@gm...> >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Eduardo Lima (Etrunko) >>>> >>>> <eb...@gm...> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> that's what the commit message is for. When it does all automatically, >>>> >>>>>>> then it's an option. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> did you look at the Evil's changeLog ? You'll see why the commit >>>> >>>>>> message is not sufficient >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> If you are talking about the list of files changed, it is just plain >>>> >>>>> useless. There is a --verbose option of svn log that will also output >>>> >>>>> the changed files. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> you're stupid or what ? We are not talking about the content of a >>>> >>>> changelog but of its layout ! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It seems everybody except you agree the ChangeLog file is just plain >>>> >>> useless. >>>> >> >>>> >> ultra funny. It's just profusion guys who want to drop changelog >>>> > >>>> > Eduardo doesn't work here: >>>> > >>>> > Excerpt from the README file in libabc >>>> > (https://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/kay/libabc.git;a=blob;f=README;h=b4bed51b0403f0f55f4e8bb4706cd97e23c4858c;hb=HEAD): >>>> > >>>> > Update NEWS to let developers know what has changed >>>> > - It's the history of the project, stuff that packagers need to know >>>> > when putting a new version in the distro. The interesting changes >>>> > or added/removed functionality from version to version. This is >>>> > not a commit changelog. >>>> > - If you want to provide ChangeLog, use the one generated >>>> > by git, do not maintain your own. >>>> >>>> so what ? counter-example: >>>> >>>> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html >>>> >>>> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > systemd doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > bluez doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > connman doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > kernel doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > node doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > go doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > pulseaudio doesn't use a ChangeLog file >>>> > >>>> > v8 uses a ChangeLog file that's really a NEWS file >>>> > webkit uses a semi-automated ChangeLog file, creating the commit >>>> > message from the changelog. And it's stupid. Been there. >>>> >>>> and i'm sure i can find HUNDREDS of libs with changelog. I have as >>>> many arguments as you have. >>>> >>>> > And WE are back to 90's maintaining that stupid files ourselves >>>> >>>> to be clear : I don't like our NEWS file. For me: >>>> >>>> ChangeLog should contain exactly what its name means : log of changes. >>>> Not all of changes of course. >>>> >>>> NEWS means what's new : that is, entries for the release, API >>>> additions, deprecations, and eventually the mention of a big >>>> improvement or a fix of a really big bug. That is, all the >>>> improvements part should go away, as I agree that it duplicates what >>>> is in ChangeLog. raster and others add that part, i accepted it. But I >>>> don't like it. And that's not the only stuff that I don't like but >>>> that i have accpeted in that project. >>> >>> i agree with vincent here fyi. the actual git or svn or cvs or whatever log is >>> footwork. it isn't publishable data beyond being useful for day-to-day hunting >>> of who did what. >>> >>> changelog is "useful publishable changes" just in the order they are done. >> >> that is the purpose of NEWS > > http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/NEWS-File.html#NEWS-File > http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Change-Logs.html > >> >> So we are maintaining the same thing, in 2 different places... NEWS >> and ChangeLog. It's just a change in format. > > no, they are different. There are much more in changelog than in NEWS. > >> If there's a new feature at release time it should be in NEWS file. It >> doesn't matter the date in which it was added. Not for whoever is >> packaging that stuff. > > what is important is the version in which the feature is added. and that should be present in NEWS Lucas De Marchi |