ebib-users — All discussion about Ebib: questions, feature suggestions, problems, etc.

Re: [Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 11:20:31PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
> (modify-syntax-entry ?\" "w")

ok, and once again i underestimate emacs. ;-) thanks for the hint, it works
beautifully.

for those who need it, add the above line to the function
ebib-find-bibtex-entries, directly after the documentation string:

#v+

(defun ebib-find-bibtex-entries ()
  "Finds the BibTeX entries in the current buffer.

The search is started at the beginnig of the buffer. All entries found are
stored in the hash table DATABASE of EBIB-CUR-DB. Returns a three-element
list: the first elements is the number of entries found, the second the
number of @STRING definitions, and the third is T or NIL, indicating
whether a @PREAMBLE was found."
  (modify-syntax-entry ?\" "w")
  (let ((n-entries 0)
	(n-strings 0)
	(preamble nil))
...

#v-

i assume (but correct me if i'm wrong) that bibtex only allows this
notation if the field value is written in {}, not when it's written in
"". i know for a fact that ebib will get confused in the latter case...

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: [Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Steve Y. <st...@sx...>]

* Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:

  > and the exact problem is with the diarhesis in the name `Micka"el'. ebib
  > takes the character " to be the start of a string, and tries to find the
  > matching double quote that ends the string. since this is never found, =
an
  > "end of buffer" error message is produced.

  > there is a work-around and a solution for this. the work-around involves
  > writing \" rather than " in your bib-file. the solution would be to rec=
ode
  > ebib so that it knows about this way of writing accented characters.

(modify-syntax-entry ?\" "w")



=2D-=20
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                 I am Dyslexic of Borg.                   |=20
|    Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated.    |
|------------------------------------<st...@sx...>---|

Re: [Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 01:15:13PM -0400, Jos Elkink wrote:
> > > My .bib
> > > file is generated using another BibTex manager, JabRef, so it should
> > > be syntactically correct :). I also never get errors when using it.
> >
> > could you send me (part of) a bibtex file you're trying to load? send it
> > (g)zipped as an attachment, not as a text file, because i need to have
> > the exact file byte-for-byte. i'm beginning to have a nasty suspicion on
> > what the problem might be...
> 
> I will send it right away in private email ...

ok, i got it. it turns out that the problem was not what i thought it was
(which makes me a little happier ;-) i tried loading your bib-file in ebib,
and got the same result: an error message stating "end of buffer" (i don't
know if you reported that) and apparently nothing is loaded. when i lowered
ebib and activated it again, i found that part of the file *had* been
loaded, however. it wasn't difficult to identify the entry where things go
wrong:

@ARTICLE{AntoniTorcini1998,
  author = {Micka"el Antoni and Alessandro Torcini},
  title = {Anomalous diffusion as a signature of a collapsing phase in two-dimensional self-gravitating systems},
  journal = {Physical Review E},
  year = {1998},
  volume = {57},
  pages = {6233-6236},
  number = {6},
  month = {JUN},
  owner = {elkinkj},
}

and the exact problem is with the diarhesis in the name `Micka"el'. ebib
takes the character " to be the start of a string, and tries to find the
matching double quote that ends the string. since this is never found, an
"end of buffer" error message is produced.

there is a work-around and a solution for this. the work-around involves
writing \" rather than " in your bib-file. the solution would be to recode
ebib so that it knows about this way of writing accented characters.

the former may have disadvantages that i'm not aware of. the latter has one
big disadvantage: it's not straight-forward. in order to read a field
contents, ebib finds the opening { that marks the beginning of the field
contents, and then looks for the matching }: everything in between is
considered the field contents. in order to find the matching }, ebib uses
the function FORWARD-LIST, which is a standard elisp function. it is this
function that knows about strings and string delimiters, and that causes
the problem in your case.

i obviously cannot alter existing elisp functions. therefore, in order to
solve the issue, i'd have to write an alternative to FORWARD-LIST, and make
it smart enough to ignore accented characters written in this fashion. i do
have (still rather vague) plans to largely rewrite the code that loads
bibtex files. when i get to that, i'll certainly think about how i can get
this right, but right now, i suggest you use the work-around...

sorry that i can't offer a better solution right now, but at least we know
where the problem lies.

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: [Ebib-users] bug fixes

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

As usual, I seem to have forgotten the attachment... Let's give it another
try.

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 04:45:21PM +0200, Joost Kremers wrote:
> Hi list,
> 
> As Thomas Schmitz pointed out in an earlier message, there is a serious bug
> in Ebib 0.25. I have now fixed this bug, together with another one that I
> found while testing Thomas' examples. Since this is a serious bug, I'm
> sending a patch that fixes it. To apply the patch and reload Ebib, do the
> following:
> 
> Put the patch file in the same directory that ebib.el is in and type:
> 
> patch < ebib-0.25.1.patch
> 
> This will update ebib.el. If you have a byte-compiled version of Ebib,
> recompile the source and restart Emacs to load it.[1]
> 
> Thanks to Thomas for reporting this bug to me.
> 
> Joost
> 
> 
> [1] Alternatively to restarting Emacs, you can quit Ebib, type 'M-x
> unload-feature RET ebib RET' and restart Ebib.

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

[Ebib-users] bug fixes

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

Hi list,

As Thomas Schmitz pointed out in an earlier message, there is a serious bug
in Ebib 0.25. I have now fixed this bug, together with another one that I
found while testing Thomas' examples. Since this is a serious bug, I'm
sending a patch that fixes it. To apply the patch and reload Ebib, do the
following:

Put the patch file in the same directory that ebib.el is in and type:

patch < ebib-0.25.1.patch

This will update ebib.el. If you have a byte-compiled version of Ebib,
recompile the source and restart Emacs to load it.[1]

Thanks to Thomas for reporting this bug to me.

Joost


[1] Alternatively to restarting Emacs, you can quit Ebib, type 'M-x
unload-feature RET ebib RET' and restart Ebib.


-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

[Ebib-users] ebib: bug?

[Thomas A. S. <tho...@un...>]

OK, since a mail I wrote a couple of days ago wound up on this list,  
I also subscribed. I've been working on and off with ebib for a  
couple of days now, and I like much of what I see. An option to sort  
the database would be nice to have, but the quick tab completion is  
very welcome and impressive. I have one possible and quite serious  
bug to report and one suggestion.

OK, first the bug: In emacs bibtex-mode, dates are stored as raw  
strings. If such a year is the last value of a bibtex entry, the last  
sign in the line is the right brace closing the entire entry, like so:

@article{name,
   author = ZZZ,
   title = ZZZ,
   year = 1999}

If I open a database with such entries with ebib, edit and save, it  
will have modified this entry like so:

@article{name,
   author = ZZZ,
   title = ZZZ,
   year = 199
}

It inserts a newline before the closing brace and gobbles the last  
character of the date. I hope you'll agree that this is a serious bug  
- I have just realized that ebib corrupted an entire bib file this  
way. Fortunately, there are backups, but I would appreciate if this  
could be fixed...

Now the suggestion: I mainly use ConTeXt for TeXing. Would it be  
possible to add defuns for the ConTeXt commands \cite[] and \nocite[]  
instead of the usual LaTeX \cite{} syntax? I have inserted this by  
simple copy-and-paste into ebib.el; there is certainly a more elegant  
way of doing this:

--- ebib.el   2006-08-18 13:50:58.000000000 +0200
+++ ebib.el.new     2006-09-19 16:57:16.000000000 +0200
@@ -2187,6 +2187,49 @@
           (when key
             (insert (format "{%s}" key)))))))))
+
+(defun ebib-insert-context-bibtex-key ()
+  "Inserts a BibTeX key at POINT, surrounded by braces.
+
+The user is prompted for a BibTeX key and has to choose one from the
+database of the current LaTeX file, or from the current database if  
there
+is no \\bibliography command. Tab completion works."
+  (interactive)
+  (if (null ebib-databases)
+      (error "No database loaded")
+    (let ((db (ebib-get-local-database)))
+      (cond
+       ((null db)
+       (error "Database %s not loaded." ebib-local-bibtex-filename))
+       ((= (hash-table-count (edb-database db)) 0)
+       (error "No entries in database %s" ebib-local-bibtex-filename))
+       (t
+       (let* ((collection (ebib-create-collection (edb-database db)))
+              (key (completing-read "Key to insert: " collection nil  
t nil ebib-minibuf-hist)))
+         (when key
+           (insert (format "\\cite[%s]" key)))))))))
+
+(defun ebib-insert-context-nocite-key ()
+  "Inserts a BibTeX key at POINT, surrounded by braces.
+
+The user is prompted for a BibTeX key and has to choose one from the
+database of the current LaTeX file, or from the current database if  
there
+is no \\bibliography command. Tab completion works."
+  (interactive)
+  (if (null ebib-databases)
+      (error "No database loaded")
+    (let ((db (ebib-get-local-database)))
+      (cond
+       ((null db)
+       (error "Database %s not loaded." ebib-local-bibtex-filename))
+       ((= (hash-table-count (edb-database db)) 0)
+       (error "No entries in database %s" ebib-local-bibtex-filename))
+       (t
+       (let* ((collection (ebib-create-collection (edb-database db)))
+              (key (completing-read "Key to insert: " collection nil  
t nil ebib-minibuf-hist)))
+         (when key
+           (insert (format "\\nocite[%s]" key)))))))))
+
+
(defun ebib-entry-summary ()
    "Shows the fields of the key at POINT.

Thomas

Re: [Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Jos E. <je...@gm...>]

Thanks for the reply!

> > Ebib starts, although for some reason XEmacs ignores init.el :),
>
> that's weird, although it's hardly a problem to do with ebib. ;-)
> (though i must say, it's odd that ebib should start if init.el is really
> being ignored...)

Oh, yes, I mean I had to manually load Ebib (load-file ...) instead of
having it automatically get loaded through init.el. But yeah, it's
certainly not an Ebib problem - I wasn't suggesting that :).

> > My .bib
> > file is generated using another BibTex manager, JabRef, so it should
> > be syntactically correct :). I also never get errors when using it.
>
> could you send me (part of) a bibtex file you're trying to load? send it
> (g)zipped as an attachment, not as a text file, because i need to have
> the exact file byte-for-byte. i'm beginning to have a nasty suspicion on
> what the problem might be...

I will send it right away in private email ...

Jos

Re: [Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

Jos Elkink schreef:
> Has anyone used Ebib under Windows instead of Linux?

Not myself, but i've known people to do it, yes. ;-)

> I just stumbled
> on the program and it sounds very interesting, since I normally use
> Emacs/Latex for my work, but I cannot manage to get it working yet.
> Ebib starts, although for some reason XEmacs ignores init.el :),

that's weird, although it's hardly a problem to do with ebib. ;-)
(though i must say, it's odd that ebib should start if init.el is really
being ignored...)

> and
> it can find the config file after manually editing ebib.el, but when I
> try to open my bibliography file, I get no error messages, but also no
> content. Could it be due to using Windows? Or something else?

i'd suspect something else. i see no reason why the OS should have
anything to do with it.

> My .bib
> file is generated using another BibTex manager, JabRef, so it should
> be syntactically correct :). I also never get errors when using it.

could you send me (part of) a bibtex file you're trying to load? send it 
(g)zipped as an attachment, not as a text file, because i need to have
the exact file byte-for-byte. i'm beginning to have a nasty suspicion on
what the problem might be...

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

[Ebib-users] ebib under Windows

[Jos E. <je...@gm...>]

Hi guys,

Has anyone used Ebib under Windows instead of Linux? I just stumbled
on the program and it sounds very interesting, since I normally use
Emacs/Latex for my work, but I cannot manage to get it working yet.
Ebib starts, although for some reason XEmacs ignores init.el :), and
it can find the config file after manually editing ebib.el, but when I
try to open my bibliography file, I get no error messages, but also no
content. Could it be due to using Windows? Or something else? My .bib
file is generated using another BibTex manager, JabRef, so it should
be syntactically correct :). I also never get errors when using it.

And yes, I know Windows is bad, but I am at work - no choice ;) ...

Jos

-- 
Jos Elkink
HMDC Fellow, Harvard University
http://jaeweb.cantr.net

Re: [Ebib-users] feature request

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:08:23 +0200, "Viktor Tron" <tr...@mo...>
said:

[Message posted to ebib-users and Cc:'ed to the OP. If you reply to
this, please to the same, as Viktor is not on the list.]

> I just heard of ebib now on the Ling-TeX list, and quite like it.
> But the usual way I use bib-files these days is with Googlescholar, which
> gives you a bibtex format entry.
> At the moment, this can be directly pasted into the bib-file but in order
> to have a nice edit possibility in the very same file within ebib, the  
> ebib bib buffer should be saved
> before pasting to the bib-file which should then be saved and then reread 
> to ebib.
> This hassle makes this bibtex-ebib interaction virtually unworkable.

Yup, I can see that...

> I think it would be nice if such a bibtex-entry could be pasted directly  
> into an ebib.

That's actually a good idea.

> The particular way I imagine this would be similar to pressing 'a' in the 
> index buffer,
> in particular I recommand 'i' for import. Pressing 'i' would give a blank 
> buffer below,
> into which one or more bibtex entries could be pasted.
> Once the entry is pasted, a keypress (say c for compile) in this  
> raw-bibtex buffer
> would parse the entry and reopen (the last one) in the same way as a  
> (partially specified) newly added entry
> in ebib.
> This would then make it possible to flexibly correct particular  
> bibtex-format entries (ones given by
> googlescholar are sometimes faulty or partial) in the nice ebib way.

There are basically two ways to do this. The first would be not to use a
special Ebib buffer, and just allow the user to import BibTeX entries
from any Emacs buffer. In that way, you can simply paste the
GoogleScholar BibTeX entry into say the *scratch* buffer, and import it
from there. The disadvantage is that you'd need to type 'M-x
ebib-import' or something in order to import the entries. (Unless of
course you bind that command to a key.)

The second way would be to use a special Ebib buffer. I would still make
that a text buffer, though, because a user might want to make a few
changes to the entry before importing it. That means that there wouldn't
be much of a difference with the first method for the user, other than
the fact that I can bind the actual import command to some key combo
myself, instead of letting the user do that.

I have a (tiny) preference for the first method, if only because I don't
see the need to create an additional Ebib buffer for something that can
be done from any (text) buffer. But I'm open to suggestions on this one.
(In principle, I could (re-)use the multiline buffer, but that one is
already used for other things, and keeping track of them is getting to
be a kludge...)

One feature I'll also add is the ability to read BibTeX entries from the
region rather than from the whole buffer. That'll give the option to
import only part of the BibTeX entries in a buffer. That might come in
handy if you want to import only some entries from a file: you can open
the file and mark and import the entries you want.

Joost


-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments
-- 
  Joost Kremers
  Life has its moments

[Ebib-users] feature request

[Viktor T. <tr...@mo...>]

I just heard of ebib now on the Ling-TeX list, and quite like it.
But the usual way I use bib-files these days is with Googlescholar, which
gives you a bibtex format entry.
At the moment, this can be directly pasted into the bib-file but in order
to have a nice edit possibility in the very same file within ebib, the  
ebib bib buffer should be saved
before pasting to the bib-file which should then be saved and then reread  
to ebib.
This hassle makes this bibtex-ebib interaction virtually unworkable.

I think it would be nice if such a bibtex-entry could be pasted directly  
into an ebib.

The particular way I imagine this would be similar to pressing 'a' in the  
index buffer,
in particular I recommand 'i' for import. Pressing 'i' would give a blank  
buffer below,
into which one or more bibtex entries could be pasted.
Once the entry is pasted, a keypress (say c for compile) in this  
raw-bibtex buffer
would parse the entry and reopen (the last one) in the same way as a  
(partially specified) newly added entry
in ebib.
This would then make it possible to flexibly correct particular  
bibtex-format entries (ones given by
googlescholar are sometimes faulty or partial) in the nice ebib way.

Best of luck to developers
Thank you

Viktor Tron

Re: [Ebib-users] Fwd: Ebib 0.25 released!

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 12:41:23PM -0700, Jesse Alama wrote:
> I wouldn't say that I rely on Custom, but I certainly use it as often
> as I can.  Please don't ignore users like me!

well, that means people *do* use it, and my time wouldn't be wasted setting
up a Custom interface. ;-)
 
> I think this is a good idea -- having that ebibrc file makes me
> uncomfortable: the one included in the distribution specifies default
> behavior, but if this file isn't included than the installation
> breaks.  This makes it somewhat annoying to package ebib for debian
> and fink, since the package description somehow has to indicate to the
> user that his installation is incomplete until he puts that ebibrc
> file in his home directory.

mmm... i never realised that.

>  I think the contents ebibrc file should
> be embedded in ebib.el, somehow, and ebib.el should be extended so
> that it uses a configuration file, say, .ebibrc, ala .gnus (for
> example).  And one should be able to use Custom to specify the
> location of that configuration file :->

ok. so what i'll do for the next version is this:

* eliminate the need for .ebibrc; ebib.el will contain defaults for the key
  bindings and entry type definitions.
* the user can add customisations to .ebibrc. (the advanced user will
  realise he can also put them in .emacs/init.el.)
* introduce defcustom.

to the latter point: what would need to be included into the M-x customize?

what comes to mind are the entry type definitions, and ebib-preload. key
bindings are not normally customised through M-x customize. anything else?

> I agree that the documentation should be available within the Info
> system.  I've taken up the task of converting Joost's LaTeX
> documentation to TeXinfo.

once you've done that, i'll continue to maintain the documentation in that
format.

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050

Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Steve Y. <st...@sx...>]

* Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:

  > On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 01:07:05PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
  >> * Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:
  >>=20
  >> > On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:08:46PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
  >>=20
  >> [key bindings]
  >>=20
  >> >> In what way were they not customisable before?
  >>=20
  >> > you needed to hack the source before.
  >>=20
  >> No you didn't.  You added some `define-key' forms to your init.el/.ema=
cs.

  > does the define-key trigger the autoload of ebib?=20

No, you would have to load ebib via `require' or `load' instead of
`autoload' if you wanted to define your own key bindings.  Otherwise
the keymaps wouldn't be defined and you'd get a void variable error.

Yeah, that negates any benefit of loading via autoload, but what you
need to think of is...

  o Only users who wanted to customise their key bindings for ebib
    would miss the autoload benefit.

  o The majority of your users won't add their own binding for ebib so
    they can load via `autoload' if they so choose without any
    trouble.=20

  o The benefits of loading ebib via `autoload' are _incredibly_
    small.=20

  > if not, it wouldn't work, because the keys would then get redefined
  > once ebib is loaded. AFAICS, at least...

No, it couldn't happen, ebib.el needs to be loaded _before_.


=2D-=20
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                 I am Dyslexic of Borg.                   |=20
|    Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated.    |
|------------------------------------<st...@sx...>---|

Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 01:07:05PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
> * Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:
> 
>   > On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:08:46PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
> 
> [key bindings]
> 
>   >> In what way were they not customisable before?
> 
>   > you needed to hack the source before.
> 
> No you didn't.  You added some `define-key' forms to your init.el/.emacs.

does the define-key trigger the autoload of ebib? if not, it wouldn't work,
because the keys would then get redefined once ebib is loaded. AFAICS, at
least...

>   > but someone that knows latex cannot be assumed to know elisp
> 
> Perhaps not, but I think the average LaTeX user, especially the
> emacs-brandishing LaTeX user, wouldn't have too much of a problem.

i figured that kind of user wouldn't have a problem with an rc file, so no
need for defcustom. ;-)

>   >> > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
>   >> > can easily be handled through .ebibrc. 
>   >> 
>   >> OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
>   >> see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
>   >> ebib.el.  I don't see the need to have an rc file.  Couldn't you just
>   >> state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
>   >> (defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?
> 
>   > well, that would be an option, but that would kinda defeat the
>   > purpose of using autoload.
> 
> How so?  It shouldn't change things at all in that regard.

well, defining an autoload for ebib.el in .emacs and then two lines later
using a macro that causes emacs to load ebib.el seem a bit silly to me. of
course, that would only apply to users that want to customise something in
ebib.

>   >> > (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so
>   >> > please let me know if you feel differently.)
>   >> 
>   >> The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables
>   >> should be defined with `defcustom'.
> 
>   > just like we should all be using MS Windows and Word...
> 
> That's hardly a fair comparison,

that is true. ;-)

> Why would you not use `defcustom'?

because i'm a lazy developer, and if i suspect that no-one will actually
use it, i don't want to spend my time adding it to ebib. ;-)

>  It makes life a lot easier for the
> novice to intermediate user, and doesn't hinder the advanced user in
> any way.  From a user's perspective, there is no down-side to Ebib
> using `defcustom'.

point taken.
 

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050

Re: [Ebib-users] Fwd: Ebib 0.25 released!

[Steve Y. <st...@sx...>]

* Jesse Alama <al...@st...> writes:

  > Steve Youngs <ste...@pu...> writes:

  >> * Joost Kremers <joo...@pu...>=
 writes:

  >> > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
  >> > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
  >> > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
  >>=20
  >> I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this
  >> is a mistake.

  > Huh?

I think it is a mistake to _not_ take advantage of Custom.

  >> One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual
  >> in Texinfo format?  From there you could generate your PDF and
  >> HTML, while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our
  >> emacs in info. :-)

  > I agree that the documentation should be available within the
  > Info system.  I've taken up the task of converting Joost's LaTeX
  > documentation to TeXinfo.

Excellent!


=2D-=20
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                 I am Dyslexic of Borg.                   |=20
|    Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated.    |
|------------------------------------<st...@sx...>---|

Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Steve Y. <st...@sx...>]

* Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:

  > On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:08:46PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:

[key bindings]

  >> In what way were they not customisable before?

  > you needed to hack the source before.

No you didn't.  You added some `define-key' forms to your init.el/.emacs.

  > but someone that knows latex cannot be assumed to know elisp

Perhaps not, but I think the average LaTeX user, especially the
emacs-brandishing LaTeX user, wouldn't have too much of a problem.

  >> I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
  >> Isn't...
  >>=20
  >> (define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)
  >>=20
  >> ...good enough?

  > this and the other two macros are just to sugar-coat lisp syntax a bit =
for
  > non-lispers.

:-)=20

  >> > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
  >> > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
  >> > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
  >>=20
  >> I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a m=
istake.

  > what is? doing it through M-x customize or *not* doing it through M-x
  > customize?

Not giving the user the ability to customise Ebib via M-x customize if
they so desire.

  >> > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
  >> > can easily be handled through .ebibrc.=20
  >>=20
  >> OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
  >> see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
  >> ebib.el.  I don't see the need to have an rc file.  Couldn't you just
  >> state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
  >> (defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?

  > well, that would be an option, but that would kinda defeat the
  > purpose of using autoload.

How so?  It shouldn't change things at all in that regard.

  >> Actually, I'd be inclined to turn those `defentry's into
  >> `defcustom's, although I'm not quite sure how hard that would
  >> be. :-)

  > but doesn't defcustom imply using M-x customize?

No, it just means the user can customise via M-x customize if she
wants to.  Just because a variable is defined with `defcustom' doesn't
mean it can't be assigned in the user's .emacs with `setq'[1]

  >> > (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so
  >> > please let me know if you feel differently.)
  >>=20
  >> The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables
  >> should be defined with `defcustom'.

  > just like we should all be using MS Windows and Word...

That's hardly a fair comparison, everyone knows that there aren't any
valid reasons or excuses for using M$.  But...

Why would you not use `defcustom'?  It makes life a lot easier for the
novice to intermediate user, and doesn't hinder the advanced user in
any way.  From a user's perspective, there is no down-side to Ebib
using `defcustom'.


Footnotes:=20
[1]  Yes, sometimes you need to use `customize-set-variable' instead
     of `setq', but that is only necessary in special circumstances.

=2D-=20
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                 I am Dyslexic of Borg.                   |=20
|    Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated.    |
|------------------------------------<st...@sx...>---|

[Ebib-users] Fwd: Ebib 0.25 released!

[Jesse A. <al...@st...>]

Sorry, I meant to send this to the list, not just to Steve:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jesse Alama <al...@st...>
Date: Aug 19, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ebib 0.25 released!
To: Steve Youngs <ste...@pu...>


Steve Youngs <ste...@pu...> writes:

> * Joost Kremers <joo...@pu...> writes:
>
>   > Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means
>   > that if you install the new version, you must also copy the new
>   > ebibrc to your HOME dir (or at least copy the key definitions to
>   > your existing .ebibrc), otherwise no command keys will be defined.
>
> Wow, this is an incredibly _bad_ idea.  Why are you leaving the
> responsibility of default key bindings up to the user?
>
> What happens to the poor user that downloads the Ebib dist tarball,
> installs, and then deletes the tarball.  Then one day, disaster strikes
> and he blows away his ${HOME}[1]...

I'm afraid I may have asked Joost to pursue a red herring: he's
responding to me complaining about non-configurable keys.  I had in
mind some way of customizing keys different from the usual way of
hacking one's emac configuration file, but I didn't specify what I had
in mind to Joost, and actually I'm not even sure what I meant.

I do agree, though, that leaving the default keybindings up to the
user is a peculiar move.

I'm not sure I see the point of your comment about wiping out your
home directory.  If one does that, one has got more problems than
simply no longer having one's ebib key configuration...

> I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
> Isn't...
>
>         (define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)
>
> ...good enough?

I think that may be right, for now.

>   > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
>   > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
>   > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
>
> I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a mistake.

Huh?

>   > Personally, I don't really like this interface,
>
> Neither do I.

I don't like it much, either, but I do use it a lot.  Moreover:

>   > and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
>   > modified by hand.
>
> The type of user that relies on `M-x customize' is most likely _not_
> the type of user to look at, or want to modify what it generates. :-)

I wouldn't say that I rely on Custom, but I certainly use it as often
as I can.  Please don't ignore users like me!

>   > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
>   > can easily be handled through .ebibrc.
>
> OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
> see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
> ebib.el.  I don't see the need to have an rc file.  Couldn't you just
> state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
> (defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?

I think this is a good idea -- having that ebibrc file makes me
uncomfortable: the one included in the distribution specifies default
behavior, but if this file isn't included than the installation
breaks.  This makes it somewhat annoying to package ebib for debian
and fink, since the package description somehow has to indicate to the
user that his installation is incomplete until he puts that ebibrc
file in his home directory.  I think the contents ebibrc file should
be embedded in ebib.el, somehow, and ebib.el should be extended so
that it uses a configuration file, say, .ebibrc, ala .gnus (for
example).  And one should be able to use Custom to specify the
location of that configuration file :->

> One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual in
> Texinfo format?  From there you could generate your PDF and HTML,
> while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our emacs in
> info. :-)

I agree that the documentation should be available within the Info
system.  I've taken up the task of converting Joost's LaTeX
documentation to TeXinfo.

Jesse

--
Jesse Alama (al...@st...)


-- 
Jesse Alama (al...@st...)

Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:08:46PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
>   > The new version incorporates two suggestions made by Jesse: first,
>   > the command keys are now customisable.
> 
> In what way were they not customisable before?

you needed to hack the source before. of course they were customisable, but
someone that knows latex cannot be assumed to know elisp, i think. even
when they use emacs. ok, they might now enough to add some lines that they
find somewhere via google to their .emacs, but actually going into a larger
source file? i dunno.

>   > Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means
>   > that if you install the new version, you must also copy the new
>   > ebibrc to your HOME dir (or at least copy the key definitions to
>   > your existing .ebibrc), otherwise no command keys will be defined.
> 
> Wow, this is an incredibly _bad_ idea.  Why are you leaving the
> responsibility of default key bindings up to the user?
> 
> What happens to the poor user that downloads the Ebib dist tarball,
> installs, and then deletes the tarball.  Then one day, disaster strikes
> and he blows away his ${HOME}[1]...

ok, that's a good point. 

> I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
> Isn't...
> 
>         (define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)
> 
> ...good enough?

this and the other two macros are just to sugar-coat lisp syntax a bit for
non-lispers.

>   > I've added a few key bindings, so that C-p, C-n and M-p, M-n now
>   > do what one would expect in Emacs.
> 
> That's great, except you haven't defined M-p/M-n, you've defined
> A-p/A-n.  Alt != Meta.  They quite often are the same key, but not
> necessarily.

that falls into the category oops... i'll correct it ASAP.

>   > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
>   > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
>   > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
> 
> I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a mistake.

what is? doing it through M-x customize or *not* doing it through M-x
customize?

>   > and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
>   > modified by hand. 
> 
> The type of user that relies on `M-x customize' is most likely _not_
> the type of user to look at, or want to modify what it generates. :-)

true. ;-) and most likely people that use latex (and it's safe to assume
that all ebib users do ;-) probably won't be intimidated by having to edit
a config file by hand.

>   > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
>   > can easily be handled through .ebibrc. 
> 
> OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
> see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
> ebib.el.  I don't see the need to have an rc file.  Couldn't you just
> state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
> (defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?

well, that would be an option, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of
using autoload. not a big deal perhaps, but some people might prefer that
ebib isn't loaded until it's actually used.

> Actually, I'd be inclined to turn those `defentry's into `defcustom's,
> although I'm not quite sure how hard that would be. :-)

but doesn't defcustom imply using M-x customize?

>   > (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so please
>   > let me know if you feel differently.)
> 
> The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables should
> be defined with `defcustom'.

just like we should all be using MS Windows and Word...

> One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual in
> Texinfo format?  From there you could generate your PDF and HTML,
> while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our emacs in
> info. :-)

that's one of jesse's points as well. truth is, i don't know anything about
texinfo. jesse offered to see if he could convert the latex source, though
perhaps i should just dive into it myself.

> Footnotes: 
> [1]  Don't laugh, I've done it. :-(

i couldn't help but grin. it's never happened to me. yet.


-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050

Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Steve Y. <st...@sx...>]

* Joost Kremers <joo...@fa...> writes:

  > Hi list,

Hi list-owner! :-)

  > The new version incorporates two suggestions made by Jesse: first,
  > the command keys are now customisable.

In what way were they not customisable before?

  > Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means
  > that if you install the new version, you must also copy the new
  > ebibrc to your HOME dir (or at least copy the key definitions to
  > your existing .ebibrc), otherwise no command keys will be defined.

Wow, this is an incredibly _bad_ idea.  Why are you leaving the
responsibility of default key bindings up to the user?

What happens to the poor user that downloads the Ebib dist tarball,
installs, and then deletes the tarball.  Then one day, disaster strikes
and he blows away his ${HOME}[1]...

I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
Isn't...

        (define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)

...good enough?

  > I've added a few key bindings, so that C-p, C-n and M-p, M-n now
  > do what one would expect in Emacs.

That's great, except you haven't defined M-p/M-n, you've defined
A-p/A-n.  Alt !=3D Meta.  They quite often are the same key, but not
necessarily.

        (define-key ebib-foo-map [(meta n)] #'foo-function)

Is a totally different binding than...

        (define-key ebib-foo-map [(alt n)] #'foo-function)

You can even use them both in the one binding...

        (define-key ebib-foo-map [(alt meta n)] #'foo-function)

  > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
  > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
  > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.

I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a mistak=
e.

  > Personally, I don't really like this interface,

Neither do I.

  > and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
  > modified by hand.=20

The type of user that relies on `M-x customize' is most likely _not_
the type of user to look at, or want to modify what it generates. :-)

  > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
  > can easily be handled through .ebibrc.=20

OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
ebib.el.  I don't see the need to have an rc file.  Couldn't you just
state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
(defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?

Actually, I'd be inclined to turn those `defentry's into `defcustom's,
although I'm not quite sure how hard that would be. :-)

  > (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so please
  > let me know if you feel differently.)

The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables should
be defined with `defcustom'.

One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual in
Texinfo format?  From there you could generate your PDF and HTML,
while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our emacs in
info. :-)

Footnotes:=20
[1]  Don't laugh, I've done it. :-(

=2D-=20
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                 I am Dyslexic of Borg.                   |=20
|    Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated.    |
|------------------------------------<st...@sx...>---|

[Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!

[Joost K. <joo...@fa...>]

Hi list,

First, let me thank Jesse Alama for suggesting I set up this list. Although
I suspect the number of subscribers is still very small (say, 3 or so ;-) I
thought I might use it as it is intended, and announce the next release of
Ebib!

The new version incorporates two suggestions made by Jesse: first, the
command keys are now customisable. This can be done in .ebibrc, and should
be pretty self-explanatory (though see the updated manual for details.)

Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means that if
you install the new version, you must also copy the new ebibrc to your HOME
dir (or at least copy the key definitions to your existing .ebibrc),
otherwise no command keys will be defined.

I've added a few key bindings, so that C-p, C-n and M-p, M-n now do what
one would expect in Emacs. (The existing keys j, k, b and space are still
available, BTW.)

The second suggestion from Jesse that I've included is the ability to
change the key name of an entry. So if you have a key called `jones:1998'
and want to change it to `jones:1998a', you can do that from within
Ebib. There's no longer a need to change it in the .bib file and reload the
file into Ebib.

Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering incorporating. One
thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs' standard customisation interface
(M-x customize) for Ebib. Personally, I don't really like this interface,
and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
modified by hand. Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib
might need can easily be handled through .ebibrc. (I'm of course open to
counter-arguments on this point, so please let me know if you feel
differently.)

I've just finished uploading the new version to the Sourceforge servers. It
should be available on the mirrors soon.

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050

[Ebib-users] prodding gmane

[Jesse A. <al...@st...>]

Once more just trying to get gmane to acknowledge the list.
-- 
Jesse Alama (al...@st...)

[Ebib-users] test message

[Joost K. <j.k...@em...>]

I told you this was a test message... ;-)

-- 
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050

[Ebib-users] prodding gmane

[Jesse A. <al...@st...>]

This is just a dummy message to get gmane to recognize this list.

-- 
Jesse Alama (al...@st...)