dynapyide-developer — Developers list concerning issues with developing the DynAPI IDE

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: beebop components

[<dir...@ba...>]

My thoughts have been going in pretty much the same direction. Let me know =
when you get the beebop source to have a look at. I will be mailing the bee=
bop guy to see if he can put the source in an FTP server or some other usab=
le medium.

let me know where/when you would like the serious coding to start.

dave

-----Original Message-----
From : dyn...@li...
To : dyn...@li...
Date : 15 May 2002 20:10:47
Subject : Dynapyide-developer digest, Vol 1 #78 - 1 msg
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>   1. Re: Just to lety you know... (=3D?iso-8859-1?q?Henrik=3D20V=3DE5glin=
?=3D)
>
>--__--__--
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>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:38:32 +0200 (CEST)
>From: =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Henrik=3D20V=3DE5glin?=3D <hv...@ya...>
>To: dyn...@li...
>Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] Re: Just to lety you know...
>
>OK, great...
>
>Myself being off-site, having a hard time even getting
>hold off a internet-connected machine.
>
>Anyways, to get down to buisness I will hand you some
>off my thoughts:
>
>I think we should separate the (default) GUI build
>from the application System build. I have sketched
>this out as Presentation Layer and System layer.
>
>Presentation Layer is simple a GUI and it should most
>probably always reside on the users client machine (ie
>the desktop machine).
>The default one (which we include in a distribution)
>we build on SWING as JavaBeans, as of the Java 1.4 SE
>branch. No need to involve any other frameworks there
>than what users already have in the their default
>installed JRE, plus that visual JavaBeans can also be
>visually customized by the user in something called
>BeansBox - without coding.
>
>System layer consists of 2 sublayers: Buisness Layer
>and Data Layer. These 2 should be able to put on any
>machines from the client itself to any distributing
>java-enabled server.
>
>The Buisness layer is where the application do all
>processing, managing and handling of data according
>too their datatypes (more on that in a more detailed
>spec later).
>
>The Data Layer consists of the raw data: HTML, XML,
>javascript, cionfiguration and any other files used or
>handled by the application.
>
>For the Buisness Layer we need to decide on wheter we
>want Apache Avalon (the stronger candidate - see
>http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/index.html ) or use
>the Bebop framework (another SourceForge project -
>fairly newly begun; you'll recive the sources to
>review soon).
>
>For parsing of HTML/XML (our default DOM parser) we
>could consider making the Apache Jakarta ECS (Element
>Construction Set - see
>http://jakarta.apache.org/ecs/index.html ).
>
>As previous planned we'll use Mozilla.org's Rhino for
>Javascript parsing (and possibly rendering too) -
>unless anyone object of course ;)
>
>With those and other Open Source projects applications
>and utilities put into components, I think we can pull
>this off without too much of a chore.=20
>
>As always: If you have any ideas, comments or
>objections - don't hesitate to share them...
>
>Henrik
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Yahoo! V=FDder...
>prognoser f=FDr 2000 platser i hela v=FDrlden=20
>http://se.weather.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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>
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>Dynapyide-developer mailing list
>Dyn...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapyide-developer
>
>
>End of Dynapyide-developer Digest
>

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[Dynapyide-developer] Re: Just to lety you know...

[<hv...@ya...>]

OK, great...

Myself being off-site, having a hard time even getting
hold off a internet-connected machine.

Anyways, to get down to buisness I will hand you some
off my thoughts:

I think we should separate the (default) GUI build
from the application System build. I have sketched
this out as Presentation Layer and System layer.

Presentation Layer is simple a GUI and it should most
probably always reside on the users client machine (ie
the desktop machine).
The default one (which we include in a distribution)
we build on SWING as JavaBeans, as of the Java 1.4 SE
branch. No need to involve any other frameworks there
than what users already have in the their default
installed JRE, plus that visual JavaBeans can also be
visually customized by the user in something called
BeansBox - without coding.

System layer consists of 2 sublayers: Buisness Layer
and Data Layer. These 2 should be able to put on any
machines from the client itself to any distributing
java-enabled server.

The Buisness layer is where the application do all
processing, managing and handling of data according
too their datatypes (more on that in a more detailed
spec later).

The Data Layer consists of the raw data: HTML, XML,
javascript, cionfiguration and any other files used or
handled by the application.

For the Buisness Layer we need to decide on wheter we
want Apache Avalon (the stronger candidate - see
http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/index.html ) or use
the Bebop framework (another SourceForge project -
fairly newly begun; you'll recive the sources to
review soon).

For parsing of HTML/XML (our default DOM parser) we
could consider making the Apache Jakarta ECS (Element
Construction Set - see
http://jakarta.apache.org/ecs/index.html ).

As previous planned we'll use Mozilla.org's Rhino for
Javascript parsing (and possibly rendering too) -
unless anyone object of course ;)

With those and other Open Source projects applications
and utilities put into components, I think we can pull
this off without too much of a chore. 

As always: If you have any ideas, comments or
objections - don't hesitate to share them...

Henrik

_____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Väder...
prognoser för 2000 platser i hela världen 
http://se.weather.yahoo.com

[Dynapyide-developer] Just to lety you know...

[<mos...@cr...>]

I finally managed to get the f**king NVidia drivers working on my POC, which means that sa from now i'm actively working on the project.

I have started by doing periphereal tasks whilst the definitions for our component API are created and the base modules written.

Hope yopu are all still interested in the project. will keep you posted.

dave.

BTW, how are those specs going? I'm about to visit our website, so io'll probably find out that way... 

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Re: [Dynapyide-developer] Re: messages

[<hv...@ya...>]

 --- mos...@cr... skrev: > 
> 
> >I have problems with this email account, Yahoo now
> >does not provide free POP3 access, so I've moved to
> >another provider. How can I change my mail in the
> >list?? My new e-mail is: jav...@ho...
> 
> Stop using Yahoo and subscribe to the list from your
> other address. who cares if your yahoo account
> reaches its limits with unread messages if youre not
> using it anyway.
> 

I guess I better sign him up or he'll never get any of
the list mails :)

> 
> >Not necesserily...  EJB and .NET are component
> >architectures, but not really adapted to desktop
> >applications. I'm more leaned towards using the
> Apache
> >Avalon myself, even if it is suggested not so
> suitable
> >for client-only GUI applications either.
> 
> I think that we could pretty much figure out a very
> simple client(desktop)-side component architecture
> more or less compliant with Avalon. That would
> probably be the best option. Take the best of both
> worlds.
> 

He he... in my last mail (which I understand you
haven't got to yet) I more or less recommended
JavaBeans as per Jeff's suggestion. This gets me back
to re-considering Avalon as a candidate. I guess for
now I shouldn't lock down to a technique yet, but
consentrate at the architecture design.

> >However, I'm more or less sketching an
> architecture,
> >where the presentation layer is totally separate
> from
> >the system which consists of a manager layer - that
> is
> >the presentation layers interface - and the handler
> >layer - which is the core functionality. I'm not
> sure
> >we need to stretch the CDB to cover the whole GUI
> to,
> >and besides that it's nice to make possible for
> >different GUI techniques - SWING, clientside and
> >serverside alike.
> 
> I have been doing some thinking on this, and what I
> came up with was to create a simple text-pad with
> javascript colorizing and a plugin module. From
> there on, the visual designer, JS interpreter, etc
> could be simple components stacked on top od each
> other. We could probably use a large chunc of Jedit
> code to do the core, then the rest would be far
> easier.
> 

I think that is what the 2 other developers - Jason
and Creighton which seems to be gone out of reach -
were at. I'm saying neither Yes or No on that
approach. You choose any code-base you want when we
have a spec that all agree and see to it that we
follow those design principles.

> >I've also taken up contact with a guy, running his
> own
> >SF project for a MVC framework in java. Posssible a
> >collaboration with him might lead to our own
> >soloution.
> 
> Where?

Also included this in a later mail:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bebop/

though very sparse info found on that project page.

BTW I found a project named Bebop Web Editor &
Publisher with this description:

"The purpose of this project is to write a
webpublishing and editing utility in java and make the
publisher compatible with ftp and sftp. The plans are
to make the editor wysiwyg and compatible with the
latest standards. The publisher will offer several"

see at http://sourceforge.net/projects/bebopwe/

I'll try and hook up those developers by email and see
if there is a possible co-operation possible.

> 
> >Other than that I haven't excluded any of the
> >javacompatible frameworks as of yet, but I'm pretty
> >sure it won't be .NET or JavaBeans (EJB is a better
> >option in that case).
> >
> >BTW I thought it was you who answered up on the
> that
> >we should go with our own COP technique. So far
> your
> >answers leads since nobody else has answered yet ;)
> >
> see above.
> 
> >Henrik 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, sorry if this is a bit late and/or i haven't
> read any posts after this, I haven't picked up my
> email in a couple of days now.
> 
> David
> 

NP, but for a tip: 

Your best alternative way to find recent emails is to
go to: 

http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/14100/0/

somehow I always appear as just "yahoo.com", but its
always me identified as that.

my most recent and one you should really should throw
an eye on is found here ("Spec Proposal"):

http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/14100/0/8592343/

Henrik

_____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Väder...
prognoser för 2000 platser i hela världen 
http://se.weather.yahoo.com

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: messages

[<mos...@cr...>]

>I have problems with this email account, Yahoo now
>does not provide free POP3 access, so I've moved to
>another provider. How can I change my mail in the
>list?? My new e-mail is: jav...@ho...

Stop using Yahoo and subscribe to the list from your other address. who cares if your yahoo account reaches its limits with unread messages if youre not using it anyway.


>Not necesserily...  EJB and .NET are component
>architectures, but not really adapted to desktop
>applications. I'm more leaned towards using the Apache
>Avalon myself, even if it is suggested not so suitable
>for client-only GUI applications either.

I think that we could pretty much figure out a very simple client(desktop)-side component architecture more or less compliant with Avalon. That would probably be the best option. Take the best of both worlds.

>However, I'm more or less sketching an architecture,
>where the presentation layer is totally separate from
>the system which consists of a manager layer - that is
>the presentation layers interface - and the handler
>layer - which is the core functionality. I'm not sure
>we need to stretch the CDB to cover the whole GUI to,
>and besides that it's nice to make possible for
>different GUI techniques - SWING, clientside and
>serverside alike.

I have been doing some thinking on this, and what I came up with was to create a simple text-pad with javascript colorizing and a plugin module. From there on, the visual designer, JS interpreter, etc could be simple components stacked on top od each other. We could probably use a large chunc of Jedit code to do the core, then the rest would be far easier.

>I've also taken up contact with a guy, running his own
>SF project for a MVC framework in java. Posssible a
>collaboration with him might lead to our own
>soloution.

Where?

>Other than that I haven't excluded any of the
>javacompatible frameworks as of yet, but I'm pretty
>sure it won't be .NET or JavaBeans (EJB is a better
>option in that case).
>
>BTW I thought it was you who answered up on the that
>we should go with our own COP technique. So far your
>answers leads since nobody else has answered yet ;)
>
see above.

>Henrik 
>
>



BTW, sorry if this is a bit late and/or i haven't read any posts after this, I haven't picked up my email in a couple of days now.

David

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[Dynapyide-developer] Re: definition

[<exi...@ph...>]

>---
>The DynAPI <!-- IDE --> is aimed at being an extensible tool for easy and correct
>development of dynamic webpages with client-side scripting. It focuses on
>the HTML Document Object Model as controlled by the integrated support
>of ECMA/Javascript and additionally powered by the inclution of the
>DynAPI crossbrowser DHTML library.
>
>It should have ability to let users create new, as well as loading
>existing web pages, edit these in both WYSIWYG and Code mode and
>shift between these modes any number of times without hazzle.
>---

Done some grammar editing ;) besides that i agree. Probably we should add the "extensible" bit.

forget it, just added it.

David.

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[Dynapyide-developer] ATTENTION: Spec Proposal

[<hv...@ya...>]

OK, I skimmed through various JavaBeans - and other - resources to try
and figure out wheter it is an technique to consider further. As stated,
EJB is overkill for our application which first and foremost is a
clientside desktop application. (It could though be expected that in the
future someone would want to implement it fully or partly server-side -
which I think the architecture I have in mind would be able to support
or adapt to.)

Anyways, here follows what I'm currently planning to outline in more
detail in a specification docs. Please let me know if you have any
further thoughts, ideas or comments (corrections?) that I can use in the
specs.


********************************************
DynAPI <!-- IDE --> Specification [Proposal]
********************************************

Just for everyone to get a glance and a chance to have a say before i
let loose on the more detailed specifications.

Features
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Well, there certainly would be a lot features you could wish for, but to
keep it relizable you have to limit down to what is the essence of what
your application should be able to do. That's why the number of core
features are kept down to a minimal useful application, and then some
additional features that could be added, even though not necessary. The
latter serve as a mind keeper as to keep the implementation as open to
extensability and reuse as possible. (Now don't be shy! I know you must
have thousand of ideas and desires as to what the final application
should be like - see this as your chance to get the features you wish
for or at least get your ideas evaluted by other minds (and maybe
someone gets an great additional idea :) ).

Core features:
--------------

- Open, create & save clientside HTML documents with clientside
ECMA/Javascript

- Edit HTML with at least ECMA/Javascript & DOM 2 support in WYSIWYG
(graphical) & Code modes

- Widget/Object generation & edit

- Application component extensability

- Application scripting ECMA/Javascript-support (Rhino)

- Help/documentation integratation

- Logging, output and save (at least during initial development)

(any core features missing?)


Additional (future) features:
-----------------------------

- Drag & Drop support

- Configuration GUI

- L&F switching

- Project managment

- JSDoc (Javascript JavaDoc-like implementation)

- Online extension check & download at runtime

- Resource respositary (code snippets etc)

- Codeview tools integration (maybe adapters for Jedit, Jext or other
text/code-only tool's extensions)

- Online references and validation integration

(any additional ideas?)


Design
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Design pattern
--------------

The architecture is of a similar type to the MVC architecture. It is a
3-tiered that conforms very well with most modern standard
design-thinking.=20

First tier:

Usually named Presentation Layer in most models and frameworks. It
consists of MODULES - visual components that builds up the Application
GUI by providing graphical presentation of the contemporary working
data. (These are the ones most conforming to the traditional JavaBean).=20

Second tier:

In most models is called Buisness Layer or Buisness Logic. Here we have
two type of component types: MANAGERS who basically manages collections
of a certain type of data objects and HANDLERS that handles one data
object a time.

Third tier:

Commonly known as the Data Layer. Data in this pattern is catogerized as
this:

* Configuration Data

* Application Scripts

* Documents

* Scripts

* Tempelates

(can you think of any missing type of data? think of it as an stand
alone object different than those mentioned, and if you can: let me know
of it )

Method & Models
---------------

For the method, the choice is Component Based Design (CBD). The choice
is based on both current trends in application development in general
and WEB application development in specific ( because, though this is
not essentially a webapplication, most of its users will more than
probably be acustommed to the componentbased thinking - at least sooner
or later ).

There is also practical and desired gainings of using a CBD model.
Flexability of maintaing and extending the application over time is
highly valued, as well as being able to just wrap and use existing Open
Source products - which will reduce development in both time and efforts
to implement features correctly.

Techniques & Tools
------------------

As the foundation for the application we will use the JavaBeans
technique as implemented in the Sun JDK 1.4 SE. The 1.4 version
specifications adds new desired features to the JavaBeans API which has
higher priority over backwards compability with an intended audiance of
developer "tech-heads" living on the edge of the technical frontier.

For our default Graphical User Interface (GUI) in the Presentation Layer
we use SWING. Since the requirements on the JavaBeans is set to the JDK
1.4 SE we don't need to apply any backward compability any lower than
that (which essentially means no backwad compability currently, since
that is the latest JDK-version released at this time).

Services
--------

Not necessarily implemented the .NET or EJB webservices-way, the
following are what I figure the system of the application must perform
in order to function as per the outlined core. (The concept thinking is
that all supported languages and APIs is some way conforms and are
translated/parsed to and from a generic DOM - Document Object Model -
based on the W3C HTML/XML DOM)

* DOM Parsing: HTML & ECMA/Javascript to generic DOM object/s and
possibility to add DynAPI, CSS and other W3C DOM-compatible techniques
(Apache Jakarta ECS candidate for markup languages and Rhino for
ECMA/Javascript - encapsuled in parser component wrappers)

* DOM Rendering: from generic DOM object/s to WYSIWYG - and possibly
preview - graphical view

* Buffering: temporary memory-buffering of open documents - in generic
DOM object/s - at runtime (additional subfeature: runtime autosave to
temp XML-file of the generic DOM in open documents - like the MS Word
feature - for session recovery)

* File: Reading from & writing to file/s (additional subfeature:
multiple files written by setting of one DOM object)

* DOM Syncing: to sync unparsed files against a generic DOM (could be
used both to see if a file is unsaved or if an application start is
following an fatal application termination)

* Logging: getting info on the application run

* Component: managment and handling of the applications components

The DOM services should probably have a parent services that is more
general in interface than DOM-specific, even if that's the only current
applicable use we have. I'm biased about making it DOM Service that then
subs into the diffent contexts or the contexts that subs into DOM
specfic components - also am unsure which is more in line with the CBD
philosophy - if any.

The JavaBeans BDK probably does the component managment and handling in
major parts, probably leaving the (below mentioned) Component Service
mostly covered. I however think we better wrap it into own components,
so we can add additional features and such if we would feel the urge to.
However, we should not complicate things too much, so initially we don't
need to give this so high priority, but also - if implemented - we
shouldn't wait to long either or it might turn out a chore task.

(this is the most crucial part, which comes done to the understanding of
CDB's core - I really feel I need some feedback on this)

***

That's as far as my brain can extend to today. I'd like to have an
online chat with as many as possibly on Spec & Design for topic.=20
Could everyone that have hanged on this far reading the message report
to me what possible Instant Messaging & Conferance services they are
able to use and some possible dates and time (please convert it to GMT
standard thank you)

And as stated you are more than welecome to suggest editions, additions
or just some feedback on the above outllined specs. Anything is
apprieated! Even flames if you feel like it! Response and feedback is
what Open Source projects live on according to some article I read on
the Apache Jakarta website - lack of it causes projects to die.

Hope you are reading this or my efforts will be in vain - and I'd hate
that

Henrik V=E5glin, your devoted project manager still at it - though being
slow and lazy ;)

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: component design (and a compact spec for the objective of the app)

[<hv...@ya...>]

Well JavaBeans could be an option, though from what I've read it doesn't
fully implement the real flexability of a component based design very
well.=20

However, as for being a well documented and standard technique it has
its obvious value. I'm more or less awaiting to see what the developer
of Bebop ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/bebop/ ) will reply next. in
te meantime I'm trying to figure out how to specify what our
appliacation is to do. So here's an attempt to summarize the objective
of the application:

---
The DynAPI <!-- IDE --> is aimed at being a tool for easy and correct
development of dynamic webpages with clientside scripting. It focuses on
the HTML Document Object Model as controlled by the integrated support
of ECMA/Javascript and additionally powered by the includetion of the
DynAPI crossbrowser DHTML library.=20

It should have ability to let users create new, as well as loading
already begun webpages, edit these in both WYSIWYG and Code mode and
shift between these modes any number of times without hazzle.
---

Now, my english is far from perfect, so please if you could edit it, do
so, and also put in whatever you think is to be in a core description of
the application we set out to do, because it felt too easy to get it
short that I fear I must've missed something (even though to get it
compact is the aim in this phase).=20

When this spec description is done, I'll break out the importent keys of
the text to build a more detailed spec on (although already gotten a bit
into it already) - so this is very important.
=20
Besides my research I'm reworking the webdesign and all docs will be
done in simplest possible HTML (a standard CSS stylesheet will be enough
to format it).

Please let the thread go on :)

Henrik V=E5glin [ hv...@ya... ]

PS Just got my eyes at the preview evalution of Dreamweaver MX, and
well, gotta say my favorite webtool just got one bit better. However,
nothing tastes like homemade ;) DS

-----Previous message-----
From: Jeff Fox
Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] Re: component design

I definitely agree a componenet based design is the way to go. I think
it makes more sense to in the long run. .NET is really geared more
towards Web Services than desktop applications and personally I think
EJB is a little overkill for this app. Standard JavaBeans should be
suitable to get the job done.=20

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: component design

[Jeff F. <jf...@ex...>]

 I definitely agree a componenet based design is the way to go. I think it makes more sense to in the long run. .NET is really geared more towards Web Services than desktop applications and personally I think EJB is a little overkill for this app. Standard JavaBeans should be suitable to get the job done.




--- On Fri 05/03, =?iso-8859-1?q?Henrik=20V=E5glin?=  wrote:
> Not necesserily...  EJB and .NET are component
> architectures, but not really adapted to desktop
> applications. I'm more leaned towards using the Apache
> Avalon myself, even if it is suggested not so suitable
> for client-only GUI applications either.
> 
> However, I'm more or less sketching an architecture,
> where the presentation layer is totally separate from
> the system which consists of a manager layer - that is
> the presentation layers interface - and the handler
> layer - which is the core functionality. I'm not sure
> we need to stretch the CDB to cover the whole GUI to,
> and besides that it's nice to make possible for
> different GUI techniques - SWING, clientside and
> serverside alike.
> 
> I've also taken up contact with a guy, running his own
> SF project for a MVC framework in java. Posssible a
> collaboration with him might lead to our own
> soloution.
> 
> Other than that I haven't excluded any of the
> javacompatible frameworks as of yet, but I'm pretty
> sure it won't be .NET or JavaBeans (EJB is a better
> option in that case).
> 
> BTW I thought it was you who answered up on the that
> we should go with our own COP technique. So far your
> answers leads since nobody else has answered yet ;)
> 
> Henrik 
> 
> 
>  --- mos...@cr... wrote: > 
> > We are doing this in EJB then?
> > 
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version: 3.1
> > GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E--
> > W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++ 
> > O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++
> > D G e++ h! r y+
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________
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> prognoser för 2000 platser i hela världen 
> http://se.weather.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We
> supply
> the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us:
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[Dynapyide-developer] Re: component design

[<hv...@ya...>]

Not necesserily...  EJB and .NET are component
architectures, but not really adapted to desktop
applications. I'm more leaned towards using the Apache
Avalon myself, even if it is suggested not so suitable
for client-only GUI applications either.

However, I'm more or less sketching an architecture,
where the presentation layer is totally separate from
the system which consists of a manager layer - that is
the presentation layers interface - and the handler
layer - which is the core functionality. I'm not sure
we need to stretch the CDB to cover the whole GUI to,
and besides that it's nice to make possible for
different GUI techniques - SWING, clientside and
serverside alike.

I've also taken up contact with a guy, running his own
SF project for a MVC framework in java. Posssible a
collaboration with him might lead to our own
soloution.

Other than that I haven't excluded any of the
javacompatible frameworks as of yet, but I'm pretty
sure it won't be .NET or JavaBeans (EJB is a better
option in that case).

BTW I thought it was you who answered up on the that
we should go with our own COP technique. So far your
answers leads since nobody else has answered yet ;)

Henrik 


 --- mos...@cr... wrote: > 
> We are doing this in EJB then?
> 
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E--
> W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++ 
> O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++
> D G e++ h! r y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


_____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Väder...
prognoser för 2000 platser i hela världen 
http://se.weather.yahoo.com

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: component design

[<mos...@cr...>]

We are doing this in EJB then?

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E-- W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++ 
O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++ D G e++ h! r y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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[Dynapyide-developer] I'm still here

[<jav...@ya...>]

I'm so busy at university by now... ¡¡The exams are
coming!! I'm still interested in the project. So as
soon as I start my holidays I'll start working again
in the project.

I have problems with this email account, Yahoo now
does not provide free POP3 access, so I've moved to
another provider. How can I change my mail in the
list?? My new e-mail is: jav...@ho...





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[Dynapyide-developer] Some good starter references on CBD

[<hv...@ya...>]

OK, I don't know if David is the only one interested to get gritty with
a component based approach, but since I happen to find some very good
presentations of CBD I thought I'd share it, so everyone can do as they
wish.

Most CBD information I've been able to find on the net, are specifically
aimed at webapplications development and not so much for client desktop
and GUI application development. 

Anyways I've begun to outlining a couple of "services" I think must be
in the system of our application. I'm concentrating on the very core. I
would really like to show it to you, but you need to understand the
concepts of CBD first. 
So please get started with it and then I help you to catch up and
explain my thinking around the core services. 

Here are some documents I think could serve as something of a
starting-point (an exclusive select after having browsed to numberous of
more and less relevant resources):

---

Short presentation comparing object and component technology (PDF
212KB):

http://www.umlcomponents.com/objectsandcomponents.pdf

This one I think describes neatly - visually - the difference between
the object oriented and the component based design thinking.

---

From Requirements to Components (PDF 237KB)

http://www.umlcomponents.com/elm-sa.pdf

This one puts in context with the Unified Modelling Language UML - again
very visual :). It's good to know, because UML is a really good way for
doing the design specs more visual which I'm striving for, because i
belive strongly that the base of a good application is a well
communicated architecture. 

---

And worth mentioning again, since its the one really promise-looking
Open Source project commited to Component Based Design as well as having
extensive material on the subject - Apache Avalon:

http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/

There's a lot of general information on CBD on the site, but the best
about the site is the online book on "developing with Apache Avalon":

http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/developing/developing-with-avalon.pdf

It suggests that Avalon fits best for appliications that are going to be
on or communicating through a network server of some kind, and not so
much for client-only GUI-based applications. However they don't assume
that parts of Avalon can be used as a base. Especially the framework
itself - which also is one of the subpojects - could be used for
example.

---

Anyways, I'm really excited about this, and hope you'll all be with me
...sooner or later ;)

Henrik

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: still in?

[<Mo...@sp...>]

I am still interested. I have got a bit sidetracked from what i was doing (mainly as a result of not being able to get the source from the repository and some translations i got dumped on me), but now I got a new PC (Athlon XP 1800+) and as soon as I get the f***ing nvidia drivers to work with my suse installation I'll be back to my good old hacking ways and with any luck finally rid of windro$$.

What has everyone else been doing, n e way?

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E-- W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++ 
O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++ D G e++ h! r y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Is there still some hope out there?

[Jeff F. <jf...@ex...>]

 Henrik and Team,

I was hoping to be able to contribute to this project, but I'm afraid my Java and application programming skills are not at the level that I can be an active participant in this project without some serious hand holding. I've tried to get up to speed on the nuts and bolts, as well as learn some SWING programming, but have not found the time to seriously invest myself in such a pursuit. So far I've contributed zilch and I don't see myself having much time anytime soon to change that, so you can remove me from the active development list.

Best of luck towards everyone in this project and I eagerly await seeing the finished dyn-api application.

-Jeff Fox

------------------------------------------------

[Dynapyide-developer] Is there still some hope out there?

[<hv...@ya...>]

 Ok, long times since anybody posted on the list or uttered any kind of
lifesign now, or anything much happening in the project site. So I have
some couple of questions of committment/interest and some personal
updates and also to ask you to please visit and participate in a survey
I just put up at SourceForge.
 
First the committment/interst questions. And let me point out that I
consider disconecting those who don't respond in one way or another
within a resonable time from the project. I don't want to be too harsch
on you since this is all volountary, but if I don't get a response I
guess that you for some reason is neither reachable or interested to
follow up on things with the project.
 
1) Do you still plan to participate in the project?
 
2) What is your current commitment status?
 
3) Anything in special that you feel would be a need for, to continue
the project?
 
Now, as for me I've had my share of spring health probs as well as just
beginning to dig into the concept of component based designs. I've come
to realise it was just that I was trying to influence that this
application would have. As I've come to relize, this is where most of
the current developments in the web-application buisness is at. Both
Microsofts .NET and Suns JavaBeans (as well as EJB) as well as most
every other application built around the idea of loosly connected
plugins are component based at least in thinking. So I think that the
trend is heading there, and that an application targeting
web(-application)developers have good reasons to try and adopt the same
concept in its design (as to promote both the concept to the users as
itself as the tool of that group of users). 
 
Well, since I didn't get much response on my querry last time I tried to
get your feedback upon it I've put together a survey at:
 
http://sourceforge.net/survey/survey.php?group_id=30194
<http://sourceforge.net/survey/survey.php?group_id=30194&survey_id=13033
> &survey_id=13033
 
If you're still considering being in the project, couldn't you spare the
little time and effort to log in and do this survey? Please? (hope I
don't sound too whiney)
 
Anybody wanna have an online meeting like Jitu suggested? Please let me
know if and when you could possibly be online and what chat/instant
messenger you prefer. I'm open for most anything but we need to come
together on something.
 
Please don't make me have to beg on my bare knees to get some kind of
response again. I'm not asking for much i think, but I feel really
unpleasant to act on being ignored. I rather have something of a sign
from you than a dead sign - if you get the wit.
 
yours truly submittive project manager ;)

[Dynapyide-developer] IMPORTANT: CBD and COP intoduction

[<hv...@ya...>]

OK, I don't know what you think of the specs so far, but I promise you i =
put a lot of thoughts and efforts into it though it might not look like =
much. I still plead to to you to read it and hope you will teel me as =
soon as something I put in there doesn't sound...

This one though is a major step in my work AND REALLY WILL AFFECT HOW =
THE WHOLE PROJECT MAKES OUT - assuming of course that you intend to =
follow and make use of the specs (which I can only hope you do, cause it =
IS intended to be a help and support for the development process and I =
really think it will in the end if it is in sunc with the rest of the =
development)

ANYWAYS, I hereby INTRODUCE CBD AND COP INTO THE PROJECT. I have =
recently learnt about it myself, but IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING TO =
ADOPT, so I hope you all will.=20

HOWEVER, please tell me now right away if this is the way you want to =
go. I want everybody to be in on this desicion cause IT IS SUCH AN =
IMPORTANT STEP.

So this is going to be A VOTE THAT NEEDS A 100% SUPPORT or else I'm =
backing up. MY VOTE IS obviously FOR it - because I'm very excited about =
it.=20

But now is your say. I need at least CREIGHTON, JASON, JEFF AND DAVID TO =
VOTE YES for this TO HAVE A GO.

Read the new sections DESIGN and PROGRAMMING PRACTICES at:

http://dynapyide.sourceforge.net/Specs/index.php?Doc=3Dintro.html#Design

AND you should also read:

http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/framework/what-is-a-component.html

It's not a chore to understand - not at my low standards anyway ;)

If you should feel any questions arising just throw'em my way and I =
either give you a direct answer or investigate it further. And  make =
sure you really know before you vote. Any doubts and we should discuss =
it further...

Hope everything else is working for you - both with your project =
commitments and any real life event/issues. and i hope you'll have an =
update on any such relevant statuses by tomorrow.

regards
Henrik

RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates again please...

[jfox <jf...@ex...>]

I have been playing with Swing as time has permitted me, which hasn't been much I'm afraid to say. Still at a very basic level with it, but I'm going to continue studying up as I can.
<br />

<br />
--- On Tue 03/12, =?iso-8859-1?q?Henrik=20V=E5glin?= <hv...@ya...> wrote:
<br />
> OK, sounds great. Please let me know of what you come
<br />
> down to when you define in words so I can write docs
<br />
> and specs on it. 
<br />
> 
<br />
> BTW I'm just in the beginning of creating a doc viewer
<br />
> and I will use it as my way in to understand the
<br />
> structure of Java and our application. I hope you'll
<br />
> be patiant and supporting me on this cause this is my
<br />
> first ever thing in Java.
<br />
> 
<br />
> Henrik
<br />
> 
<br />
>  --- "DeWeese, Jason" <jde...@ba...> skrev: >    
<br />
> I'm still working on the basic structure that
<br />
> > will support our
<br />
> > project.  I've written a event bus, and some tool to
<br />
> > manage our
<br />
> > different controls.  The last two things I need to
<br />
> > do is write a class
<br />
> > loader and put some of the functionality back in it.
<br />
> >  As far as added
<br />
> > funtionality there is none, you won't see any
<br />
> > changes really.  This is
<br />
> > just foundation work for the project.  Creighton is
<br />
> > doing some studying
<br />
> > what it will take to start extending the the gui
<br />
> > view.  After that we
<br />
> > are going to define in words what needs to be done
<br />
> > and split it up
<br />
> > between us. 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > -----Original Message-----
<br />
> > From: Henrik Våglin [mailto:hv...@ya...]
<br />
> > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:47 AM
<br />
> > To: dyn...@li...
<br />
> > Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates again
<br />
> > please...
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > Ok, guys, I'm here nagging on you again. 
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > Thing is it's been over a week since last updates,
<br />
> > and i just wanna know
<br />
> > where you're at. Are everything progressing as it
<br />
> > should, do you still
<br />
> > have as much time for the project and have you
<br />
> > staked out what you're to
<br />
> > do? let's just come together like this every once in
<br />
> > a while....
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > As a project manager I go first to set the good
<br />
> > example ;)
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > I'm still very much reading up on things, both as to
<br />
> > know how to do
<br />
> > specs and docs for the project as well as learning
<br />
> > how to get together a
<br />
> > fairly simple docs&help-viewer app/applet. Also,
<br />
> > working on a more
<br />
> > dynamic outfit for the website (using dynAPI on our
<br />
> > website makes sense,
<br />
> > right?)
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > Today I come to think that what we need for DynAPI
<br />
> > representation and
<br />
> > the scripting API of the application runtime engine
<br />
> > would be something
<br />
> > called JDynAPI. I'm not sure yet as to how far
<br />
> > JDynAPI should be DynAPI
<br />
> > objects done in java. Maybe only the core objects
<br />
> > (DynObject,
<br />
> > DynDocument, DynLayer) need to be java and the rest
<br />
> > an extended
<br />
> > Rhino-implementation can handle in parsing the
<br />
> > DynAPI syntax...
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > So please just a few words from each of you so
<br />
> > everybody knows where
<br />
> > you're at. Nobodies demanding giant progress, but I
<br />
> > hope everybody still
<br />
> > feels passionate aboutthe project...
<br />
> >  
<br />
> > Henrik 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > 			
<br />
> > ____________________________________________________
<br />
> > 
<br />
> >
<br />
> <http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>
<br />
> >   IncrediMail -
<br />
> > Email has finally evolved -
<br />
> >
<br />
> <http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>
<br />
> > Click Here 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> > 
<br />
> 
<br />
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/gif name=ATT279383.gif
<br />
>  
<br />
> 
<br />
> _____________________________________________________
<br />
> Hitta snörapporter... 
<br />
> från 500 olika skidorter i Europa
<br />
> på http://se.snow.yahoo.com
<br />
> 
<br />
> _______________________________________________
<br />
> Dynapyide-developer mailing list
<br />
> Dyn...@li...
<br />
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapyide-developer
<br />
> 
<br />
<br />
<hr>

[Dynapyide-developer] Updates

[Javier N. <jav...@ya...>]

I'm working on the icon files. But I have some work at university... =
I'll make them as soon as possible.

RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates again please...

[<hv...@ya...>]

OK, sounds great. Please let me know of what you come
down to when you define in words so I can write docs
and specs on it. 

BTW I'm just in the beginning of creating a doc viewer
and I will use it as my way in to understand the
structure of Java and our application. I hope you'll
be patiant and supporting me on this cause this is my
first ever thing in Java.

Henrik

 --- "DeWeese, Jason" <jde...@ba...> skrev: >    
I'm still working on the basic structure that
> will support our
> project.  I've written a event bus, and some tool to
> manage our
> different controls.  The last two things I need to
> do is write a class
> loader and put some of the functionality back in it.
>  As far as added
> funtionality there is none, you won't see any
> changes really.  This is
> just foundation work for the project.  Creighton is
> doing some studying
> what it will take to start extending the the gui
> view.  After that we
> are going to define in words what needs to be done
> and split it up
> between us. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henrik Våglin [mailto:hv...@ya...]
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:47 AM
> To: dyn...@li...
> Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates again
> please...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, guys, I'm here nagging on you again. 
>  
> Thing is it's been over a week since last updates,
> and i just wanna know
> where you're at. Are everything progressing as it
> should, do you still
> have as much time for the project and have you
> staked out what you're to
> do? let's just come together like this every once in
> a while....
>  
> As a project manager I go first to set the good
> example ;)
>  
> I'm still very much reading up on things, both as to
> know how to do
> specs and docs for the project as well as learning
> how to get together a
> fairly simple docs&help-viewer app/applet. Also,
> working on a more
> dynamic outfit for the website (using dynAPI on our
> website makes sense,
> right?)
>  
> Today I come to think that what we need for DynAPI
> representation and
> the scripting API of the application runtime engine
> would be something
> called JDynAPI. I'm not sure yet as to how far
> JDynAPI should be DynAPI
> objects done in java. Maybe only the core objects
> (DynObject,
> DynDocument, DynLayer) need to be java and the rest
> an extended
> Rhino-implementation can handle in parsing the
> DynAPI syntax...
>  
> So please just a few words from each of you so
> everybody knows where
> you're at. Nobodies demanding giant progress, but I
> hope everybody still
> feels passionate aboutthe project...
>  
> Henrik 
> 
> 			
> ____________________________________________________
> 
>
<http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>
>   IncrediMail -
> Email has finally evolved -
>
<http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>
> Click Here 
> 
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/gif name=ATT279383.gif
 

_____________________________________________________
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på http://se.snow.yahoo.com

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: Update

[<mos...@cr...>]

Hi, Henrick,

I am, at the moment working on the JsDoc documentation generator. At the mo=
ment =B4'm writing the bit that actually writes the HTML to disk, all the d=
ata structures are finished but am heading unto a bit of a roadblock. Could=
 anyone please send here a RegExp defining how to get a JavaScript Identifi=
er? Its justr that i'm crap at reagexp. sould do more perl...=20

anyway, i'm hoping to be releasing a relatively stable version in a couple =
of weeks.

Hows everyone else doing, BTW?

David.

>
>Ok, guys, I'm here nagging on you again. ... [& so on... DM]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E-- W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++=20
O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++ D G e++ h! r y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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RE: [Dynapyide-developer] A question

[DeWeese, J. <jde...@ba...>]

The best tutorials is at http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/
<http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/>   <http://java.sun.com> .
There is a good book published by Wrox Press called "Beginning Java 2",
if you can get the JDK 1.3 Version that is the new release of the book.
The book covers from the very basics (like variables) to the complex
(database connections, gui).  I still refer to the book on a regular
basis.  And there is always the ultimate reference at
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/index.html
<http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/index.html>  .  This is sun's API
(class listing) reference.

-----Original Message-----
From: Javier Nievas [mailto:jav...@ya...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 12:36 PM
To: DynAPI IDE
Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] A question


 
I'm at university, now I must learn Java for a subject. We are learning
concurrent programming, and we will use the threads on Java. So, I need
to learn Java. I know some C, and something about OOP. Can somebody
recommend me a tutorial to learn Java? And a good IDE to develop the
exercises I must do?
 
Thank you
 

[Dynapyide-developer] Re: Java lang knowledge

[<mos...@cr...>]

>I'm at university, now I must learn Java for a subject. We are learning =
>concurrent programming, and we will use the threads on Java. So, I need =
>to learn Java. I know some C, and something about OOP. Can somebody =
>recommend me a tutorial to learn Java? And a good IDE to develop the =
>exercises I must do?
>
>Thank you
>


goto forum.java.sun.com ' the one true source of knowledge.

//or in JavaScript (or Micro$oft's version of it)

var knowledge = "http://forum.sun.java.com/";
var iea = new ActiveXObject("InternetExplorer.Application");
with(iea){
    navigate(knowledge);
    visible = true;
}

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/CC/IT/L/MU/P/S/AT d? s++: a-- C+++ U--- P+ L E-- W+++ N++ o+ K? w+++ 
O? M V? PS+++ PE-- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R tv+ b+++ DI+++ D G e++ h! r y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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Personalised email by http://another.com

[Dynapyide-developer] A question

[Javier N. <jav...@ya...>]

I'm at university, now I must learn Java for a subject. We are learning =
concurrent programming, and we will use the threads on Java. So, I need =
to learn Java. I know some C, and something about OOP. Can somebody =
recommend me a tutorial to learn Java? And a good IDE to develop the =
exercises I must do?

Thank you

Re: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates please...

[Javier N. <jav...@ya...>]

I am working on the icons for the toolbar... but I've been so busy last =
days... I'm turning back. I'll send them as soon as possible.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Creighton Kirkendall=20
  To: 'jf...@ex...' ; dyn...@li...=20
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 8:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates please...


  If you are looking a swing books pay special attention to what they =
have on the javax.swing.text area.  This is the area the covers the =
architecture of the editors.

  =20

  -----Original Message-----
  From: jfox [mailto:jf...@ex...]=20
  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 2:28 PM
  To: dyn...@li...
  Subject: RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates please...

  =20

  I haven't gotten my hands into anything yet, I still don't know how to =
get into CVS, but I'll start to try and get myself up to speed on SWING =
starting this weekend. I'll grab the SWING book or something comperable. =


  I'm also just curious, but does everyone have the entire available =
source files locally to develop and just post changes to CVS?=20

  -Jeff=20

  --- On Fri 03/01, DeWeese, Jason wrote:=20
  > My Update:=20
  >=20
  > I am working on the general layout of our exsisting code. I=20
  > almost have all the business logic (the processing code) seperated =
from=20
  > the gui. There will pave the way for future development. The menu =
and=20
  > toolbar are more modular. There is one control point for options. =
For=20
  > example if I want to disable the save option if I don't have a file=20
  > loaded I can now disable the save option and it will disable it in =
the=20
  > menu and toolbar. I have looked at a class loader that will allow us =
to=20
  > drop in plugins. As soon as I get the general layout stuff done I =
will=20
  > upload the entire structure to the cvs. There is a lot more classes=20
  > this time. After that I am going to start updating the gui, =
including=20
  > starting a toolbox.=20
  >=20
  > -----Original Message-----=20
  > From: Creighton Kirkendall [ mailto:cki...@ho...=20
  > ]=20
  > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:43 AM=20
  > To: dyn...@li...=20
  > Subject: RE: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates please...=20
  >=20
  >=20
  > Update: I am working on the base graphical editor. Unfortunately =
this=20
  > is=20
  > going to take some time to get into a workable situation so you may =
not=20
  > get=20
  > a lot of updates from me for a while. I am trying to replace the=20
  > parser,=20
  > EditorKit, views and EditorPane provided with jdk1.3.1 with =
something=20
  > that=20
  > can support our features. Right now if anyone can spend some time=20
  > getting=20
  > familiar with the concept of Views and EditorKits so that when I get =
to=20
  > a=20
  > point where we have some working code that they can help work with =
me on=20
  >=20
  > adding the features to it, that would be nice. Jeff, Jason and =
anyone=20
  > else=20
  > who is interested please take a look at the book Java Swing =
(O'Reilly)=20
  > and=20
  > spend some time reading chapters 18-25 (about 300 pages). This =
explains=20
  > the=20
  > basis of architecture that I am working with.=20
  >=20
  > Creighton Kirkendall=20
  >=20
  > -----Original Message-----=20
  > From: Henrik V=E5glin [ mailto:hv...@ya...=20
  > ]=20
  > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 7:28 AM=20
  > To: dyn...@li...=20
  > Subject: [Dynapyide-developer] Updates please...=20
  >=20
  > Same here, David... I'm awful with getting CVS to work=20
  > even though Creighton described how to do it (I'm=20
  > mainly having probs with setting JCVS to run Putty=20
  > SSH)=20
  >=20
  > It's nice work with the ini-file feature - especially=20
  > since there's actually something to download at thee=20
  > project site now ;P=20
  >=20
  > Anyways, haven't gotten much noice from you guys the=20
  > last couple of days... Any updates - development or=20
  > personal - anyone?=20
  >=20
  > Creighton, any progress or are you waiting for=20
  > something?=20
  >=20
  > Jason, how's the interface development?=20
  >=20
  > Jeff, have you got something in your hands?=20
  >=20
  > Javi, did you get to resize the icon graphics?=20
  >=20
  > Henrik, what have I been doing?=20
  >=20
  > Well, I'm browsing through SourceForge to see what is=20
  > available to integrate into our project to possible=20
  > lighten your burden. Also working on the docs and=20
  > website every now and then and beginning to prepar for=20
  > my first java coding endeavure in putting together a=20
  > help/doc/javadoc viewer interface. Mostly by looking=20
  > at a lot of sourcecode and try to pick up ideas here=20
  > and there and maybe find a good code base to begin=20
  > from.=20
  >=20
  > Found this little HTML-editor project at SF:=20
  > http://jhtml.sourceforge.net/ that=20
  > might be of=20
  > interest to look into while your developing those core=20
  > features...=20
  >=20
  > Hope everyone has a great weekend. I'll be away myself=20
  > and visit Vasa in Finland, but I'll be back Sunday=20
  > evening...=20
  >=20
  > Henrik=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  > _____________________________________________________=20
  > Hitta sn=F6rapporter...=20
  > fr=E5n 500 olika skidorter i Europa=20
  > p=E5 http://se.snow.yahoo.com=20
  >=20
  > _______________________________________________=20
  > Dynapyide-developer mailing list=20
  > Dyn...@li...=20
  > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapyide-developer=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  > _______________________________________________=20
  > Dynapyide-developer mailing list=20
  > Dyn...@li...=20
  > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapyide-developer=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20


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