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From: Pieter V. W. <pie...@1e...> - 2001-02-06 12:10:05
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I'm not very experienced webscripter, but in my humble opinion: 1. Why bother having a standards organization? 2. Isn't that what microsoft targets: embrace, enhance, extinguish (cfr. haloween) (not my ethics) Since - NS4x is still in the stats - DYNAPI is a cross-browser dhtml lib - Some web applications require dhtml I think NS4 should still be supported, BUT of course im not too aware of how much of a pain Netscape is for dhtml ... Pieter. # -----Original Message----- # From: Pascal [mailto:pb...@oi...] # Sent: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 12:21 # To: dyn...@li... # Subject: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion # # # Just reading an article on freshmeat (thanks to # www.scottandrew.com) about # Linux problems with a good browser.. mainly targeting Mozilla. # # Then started thinking, I was a huge fan of Netscape.. # operative word: WAS. # After trying out IE5 I got annoyed by Netscape's browser: # it's so huge. # # I then read about Mozilla, being a faster browser using the # super-fast gecko # engine (raved about by many sites and magazines). But when # the first few # milestones rolled out I was very dissapointed. Now NS6 is out # and a few new # milestones have been released, but it's still one big # application that I # don't need. # # How many of you out there are using Mozilla, and why? Is it # just because you # "hate" Microsoft? or is there really something I'm missing. Also for # professional webdesigners out there, are you targeting ALL # browsers, or just # ignoring the Netscape "things" ? # # Another question (full of them today :-) is that everyone # wants standards.. # so why rave about Mozilla supporting the W3C standards perfectly? If # Netscape stops, it means that Internet Explorer (win32) is # the standard # (almost there already I think) Sure, again Microsoft will be # controlling # things, but once IE is the standard, a smart company like # Opera can easily # move into that area, making there browser 100% IE compatible, # and work from # there. We now have 2 very distinct Netscape browsers and # Internet Explorer # and MS will not support other peoples standards..it's not the # way they work. # # Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x # browsers? is there any need for it? # # Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) # Software ontwikkelaar # Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. # http://www.oibv.com # # # _______________________________________________ # Dynapi-Dev mailing list # Dyn...@li... # http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev # |
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From: Pascal <pb...@oi...> - 2001-02-06 14:58:33
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As usuall this agains spawns heavy discussions on Netscape addicts and IE addicts. I guess this is the problem (as Michael pointed out) : both browsers are the worst implementations of a software application. They are doing things they shouldn't do (email, news, etc..) And the things you use them for (browsing the web) aren't being done in one normal standard way. Everyone is raving about Netscape keeping up with standards, but those standards are worthless seeing as more then 90% of the people browsing the web are using a non-standard compliant browser like IE. So while Mozilla is trying to be standard compliant (to W3C standards, who seem to release new versions of there standards before the old one is actually useable or standard for that matter). If there was only one browser (I don't give a damn on who creates it at this point) things would be alot easier, and Mozilla is making that harder then it already was with introducing yet another browser which works almost like IE but because IE is not standard compliant, they both differ in small but important areas. Ofcourse we also have Opera going at it, but it's Javascript support (which in my opinion is a key-component for web-browsing) is not really upto it and therefor not yet a key player (although making it free proves that they are still a player). And sure the DynAPI is a cross-browser library, but would you also still support DOS applications? At one point things are just outdated and in a library like the DynAPI these browsers might actually hold things back for a small group of people that are using this library. Netscape 4 might still be a large area to support (with Linux users) but IE4 is also being outdated (seeing that Microsoft stuffs the auto-update junk on your screen many times, I can't imagine even the dumbest pc users haven't upgraded somehow using the download option or any random pc magazine's cover CD). Looking at my site's access logs most users (98%) are already using a Windows based platform with an IE5+ browser. To make it even worse, Netscape is now officially dead, there will be an AOL browser available... will this be "based" on Mozilla, or will AOL add things that will add to the "AOL experience" which will most likely spawn some other hot features not found in the standards. Don't get me wrong, I'm definetly not pro-microsoft (I'm already terrified by the .Net idea which hopefully will fail) but at this point I wouldn't mind MS having a monopoly position in browsers.. it would simplefy things so much that it could even open up for other developers to create new and compact browsers that can show all websites because they are IE compatible. How long would we keep support for these older browsers in the DynAPI, and shouldn't we be looking forward. We might actually be making things worse by giving people a reason to not upgrade to a "better" browser. Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) Software ontwikkelaar Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. http://www.oibv.com |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 15:28:36
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I've never said I was using my brain nor having any bit of common sense when I decided to join this cross-browser nightmare. The browser we, as developers, are dealing with might be better or worse, but still the pages are our creation. When any of my pages fails to move a layer in any browser which, in standard or propietary way, can move layers, then it is my fault. I do complain about M$, Netscape, AOL not helping me, but again this is my job. "When a man chooses, even if he chooses evil, isn't still that man better that the one that had good imposed upon him ? " Anthony Burgess, 'a clockwork orange' |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 15:40:26
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Another ilustrative example: they took me to a project brainstorming. Big website, world-wide coverage including the very best of the design community. "Hey, aren't you the DHTML guru ? They told us you could add some cool and impressive effects !! " Well, yes, sure. Then they told me the target: 90% Mac users. Should I suggest they all upgrade to windows platforms or pray that DynAPI2 behaves in Mac ? At least I know the API enought to attemp some bugfixing myself. If I was not that experimented and had to watch sourceforge for that fix to come, I would get really really nervous. |
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From: Doug M. <do...@cr...> - 2001-02-06 15:58:13
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Asking someone to replace ALL of their computer is not quite the same as asking them to upgrade their browser. Too, this Gov't dept is still using Pentium 133's.. (?!?!?!?! every other damned dept. has upgraded to P]['s and P ]|['s...) Which means I have to take extra-special attention to load-time and speed of operation. > Another ilustrative example: they took me to a project brainstorming. Big website, > world-wide coverage including the very best of the design community. "Hey, aren't > you the DHTML guru ? They told us you could add some cool and impressive effects !! > " > > Well, yes, sure. Then they told me the target: 90% Mac users. Should I suggest they > all upgrade to windows platforms or pray that DynAPI2 behaves in Mac ? At least I > know the API enought to attemp some bugfixing myself. If I was not that experimented > and had to watch sourceforge for that fix to come, I would get really really > nervous. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 17:52:34
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Is there any complete DOM reference ? I'm trying to debug some event issues and I'm pretty lost without a method/property reference. |
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From: Thomas H. <t.h...@fi...> - 2001-02-06 18:48:28
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Hi, Jordi 'IlMaestro' Ministral wrote: > > Is there any complete DOM reference ? I'm trying to debug some event issues and > I'm pretty lost without a method/property reference. ...I didn't find a complete reference, but there is a list of known bugs in the mozilla implementation at: http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/dom-roadmap.html - perhaps it is usefull. Thomas. |
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From: Nuno F. <nun...@wi...> - 2001-02-06 19:32:57
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Recent released the Javacript docs for vers.1.5, so maybe they already released the docs for the DOM, try their http://developer.netscape.com site... -----Original Message----- From: dyn...@li... [mailto:dyn...@li...]On Behalf Of Jordi 'IlMaestro' Ministral Sent: terca-feira, 6 de Fevereiro de 2001 17:49 To: dyn...@li... Subject: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 DOM reference Is there any complete DOM reference ? I'm trying to debug some event issues and I'm pretty lost without a method/property reference. |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 18:52:19
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I've updated CVS with several NS6 patches I found at sourceforge and proved ok in my tests. Also I modified the DynLayer's constructor so the visibility parameter can be either a boolean (most coherent with setVisible) or 'visible' / 'hidden' as it used to be. To anyone sending bugfixes: I receive about 100 mails per day. Any bugfix submited as an attachment to a mail will probably get lost. Use sourceforge's patch utility instead. It may take a while ( depending on how busy we are ) but we'll find the time to look at it and apply it to the code, if it works. I'd rather spend one afternoon analyzing and applying patches than organizing attached zips in my mailbox. Don't give up :). We'll make it some day. |
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From: Pascal <pb...@oi...> - 2001-02-06 15:40:41
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Then isn't that the big problem? That people still want THE site to be 4.x compatible? WHY!? And I think we're only making that problem bigger for developers by introducing an API that actually makes DHTML development almost a breeze (still the biggest supporter/fan of this thing out there :). I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world (maybe the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things just because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. "If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will stop using it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you can develop some experimental stuff..." So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that works on older browsers? Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we holding things back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more powerfull when supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's build-in eventlisteners).. (btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) Software ontwikkelaar Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. http://www.oibv.com > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: dyn...@li... > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Nuno Ferreira > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 16:18 > Aan: dyn...@li... > Onderwerp: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep > supporting "old" 4.x > >browsers? is there any need for it? > > At least in my world there is. > If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, > and/or IE 4.x I > would > certain would stop using it. > > People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when > specifiying > the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to > target IE4.x and > NS 4.x > Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% > of the Market > using > IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all > the users to be > able > to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML > optimization for the > team > that built the site of the biggest telecom company in > Portugal, and they > demanded > that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility! > > I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's > supporting > a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32 > b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac > c) NS 4.x > d) NS 6 > > If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that > NS versions (at > least > from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and > if you look at > most > statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 > they stick to it > until > they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, > because 15Mb > downloads > are still out of the question for the great majority. > > I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so > this view maybe > a bit biased or incomplete. > > You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions > using them, just > as you > can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions > using smaller > screen > sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...) > > I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this > problem all the > time, > and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to > deal with 4.x > browsers > a long time still. > > If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > people will > stop using > it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where > you can develop > some > experimental stuff... > > > NunoF > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > |
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From: Richard B. <ma...@ri...> - 2001-02-06 16:08:41
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So what's wrong with ensuring backward compatibility, while adding the newest effects for the latest browsers? I don't think most customers *mind* if a little colored border, or some transparency don't show in NS4, as long as the site looks nice and readable in that browser. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pascal" <pb...@oi...> To: <dyn...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:40 PM Subject: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > Then isn't that the big problem? That people still want THE site to be 4.x > compatible? WHY!? > > And I think we're only making that problem bigger for developers by > introducing an API that actually makes DHTML development almost a breeze > (still the biggest supporter/fan of this thing out there :). > > I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we > participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world (maybe > the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things just > because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are > probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. > > > "If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will > stop using it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you > can develop some experimental stuff..." > > So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that works on older > browsers? Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we holding things > back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more powerfull when > supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's > build-in eventlisteners).. > > (btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about > browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) > > Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) > Software ontwikkelaar > Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. > http://www.oibv.com > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: dyn...@li... > > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Nuno Ferreira > > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 16:18 > > Aan: dyn...@li... > > Onderwerp: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > > > > > >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep > > supporting "old" 4.x > > >browsers? is there any need for it? > > > > At least in my world there is. > > If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, > > and/or IE 4.x I > > would > > certain would stop using it. > > > > People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when > > specifiying > > the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to > > target IE4.x and > > NS 4.x > > Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% > > of the Market > > using > > IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all > > the users to be > > able > > to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML > > optimization for the > > team > > that built the site of the biggest telecom company in > > Portugal, and they > > demanded > > that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility! > > > > I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's > > supporting > > a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32 > > b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac > > c) NS 4.x > > d) NS 6 > > > > If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that > > NS versions (at > > least > > from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and > > if you look at > > most > > statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 > > they stick to it > > until > > they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, > > because 15Mb > > downloads > > are still out of the question for the great majority. > > > > I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so > > this view maybe > > a bit biased or incomplete. > > > > You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions > > using them, just > > as you > > can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions > > using smaller > > screen > > sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...) > > > > I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this > > problem all the > > time, > > and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to > > deal with 4.x > > browsers > > a long time still. > > > > If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > > people will > > stop using > > it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where > > you can develop > > some > > experimental stuff... > > > > > > NunoF > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > Dyn...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > ____________________________________________________________ > Get your free domain name and domain-based e-mail from > Namezero.com. New! Namezero Plus domains now available. > Find out more at: http://www.namezero.com > |
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From: Pascal B. <pa...@dy...> - 2001-02-06 18:20:33
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Nothings wrong with backward compatibility.. but there are alot of things that can't be done with older browsers (easiest example is trying to do the simplest DHTML trick on an NS3) IE5 for example has some great image-filters that could make kick-ass presentations or other multimedia efforts (i.e. games). These things will in NO way work on NS browsers, I know, it's not a "W3C-standard" but it's just an example (even doing something like dynamically render contents can be a pain in NS4). So we might actually hold back alot of horse power because we can not get it working cross-browser. Also where does the back-line end? we already dropped v3.x because of logical reasons : no dhtml, but how long can/will/should we support 4.x browsers? Pascal Bestebroer pa...@dy... http://www.dynamic-core.net > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: dyn...@li... > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Richard Bennett > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 17:08 > Aan: dyn...@li... > Onderwerp: Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > So what's wrong with ensuring backward compatibility, while adding the > newest effects for the latest browsers? > I don't think most customers *mind* if a little colored border, or some > transparency don't show in NS4, as long as the site looks nice > and readable > in that browser. > > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pascal" <pb...@oi...> > To: <dyn...@li...> > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:40 PM > Subject: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > Then isn't that the big problem? That people still want THE > site to be 4.x > > compatible? WHY!? > > > > And I think we're only making that problem bigger for developers by > > introducing an API that actually makes DHTML development almost a breeze > > (still the biggest supporter/fan of this thing out there :). > > > > I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we > > participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world > (maybe > > the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things > just > > because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are > > probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. > > > > > > "If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > people will > > stop using it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool > thing where you > > can develop some experimental stuff..." > > > > So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that > works on older > > browsers? Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we > holding things > > back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more > powerfull when > > supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's > > build-in eventlisteners).. > > > > (btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about > > browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) > > > > Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) > > Software ontwikkelaar > > Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. > > http://www.oibv.com > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > > Van: dyn...@li... > > > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Nuno Ferreira > > > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 16:18 > > > Aan: dyn...@li... > > > Onderwerp: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep > > > supporting "old" 4.x > > > >browsers? is there any need for it? > > > > > > At least in my world there is. > > > If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, > > > and/or IE 4.x I > > > would > > > certain would stop using it. > > > > > > People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when > > > specifiying > > > the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to > > > target IE4.x and > > > NS 4.x > > > Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% > > > of the Market > > > using > > > IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all > > > the users to be > > > able > > > to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML > > > optimization for the > > > team > > > that built the site of the biggest telecom company in > > > Portugal, and they > > > demanded > > > that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility! > > > > > > I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's > > > supporting > > > a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32 > > > b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac > > > c) NS 4.x > > > d) NS 6 > > > > > > If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that > > > NS versions (at > > > least > > > from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and > > > if you look at > > > most > > > statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 > > > they stick to it > > > until > > > they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, > > > because 15Mb > > > downloads > > > are still out of the question for the great majority. > > > > > > I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so > > > this view maybe > > > a bit biased or incomplete. > > > > > > You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions > > > using them, just > > > as you > > > can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions > > > using smaller > > > screen > > > sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...) > > > > > > I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this > > > problem all the > > > time, > > > and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to > > > deal with 4.x > > > browsers > > > a long time still. > > > > > > If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > > > people will > > > stop using > > > it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where > > > you can develop > > > some > > > experimental stuff... > > > > > > > > > NunoF > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > > Dyn...@li... > > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > Dyn...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Get your free domain name and domain-based e-mail from > > Namezero.com. New! Namezero Plus domains now available. > > Find out more at: http://www.namezero.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > |
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From: Nuno F. <nun...@wi...> - 2001-02-06 19:44:44
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>Nothings wrong with backward compatibility.. but there are alot of things >that can't be done with older browsers (easiest example is trying to do the >simplest DHTML trick on an NS3) IE5 for example has some great image-filters >that could make kick-ass presentations or other multimedia efforts (i.e. >games). These things will in NO way work on NS browsers, I know, it's not a >"W3C-standard" but it's just an example (even doing something like >dynamically render contents can be a pain in NS4). But those features could be in extra libraries, right? Or widgets? As long as the core is crossbrowser, the extensions could be IE only, or NS only. >So we might actually hold back alot of horse power because we can not get it >working cross-browser. In case of Image filters I think Netscape ignores them all together, I used them once in a while for creating some cool effects and doesn't even report a error, which is perfect for me (I don't have to duplicate the code). And besides, you can also use DirectX effects in IE (even textures, polygons, you name it) which you have to admit open a lot of possibilities, but do you want to release something that only Win32 users can see? >Also where does the back-line end? we already dropped v3.x because of >logical reasons : no dhtml, but how long can/will/should we support 4.x >browsers? When users(and clients, in case of developers) no longer support it, basically. As long as they think that DHTML works in 4.x browsers and there's a large piece of the market using it (IE 4 is still more used that IE 5.5.)... |
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From: Nuno F. <nun...@wi...> - 2001-02-06 19:27:40
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>So what's wrong with ensuring backward compatibility, while adding the >newest effects for the latest browsers? >I don't think most customers *mind* if a little colored border, or some >transparency don't show in NS4, as long as the site looks nice and readable >in that browser. EXACTLY! Take the opacity filter in IE, recently I did some cool semi-transparent pulldown menus for a interface I was implementing, it doesn't look as cool in NS as in explorer but it's still a great interface that works the same way in Both Browsers! |
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From: Eytan H. <ey...@tr...> - 2001-02-07 14:21:43
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I'm writing this before finishing the whole thread so I don't know if Dann popped in yet. Dann had a great idea. He had this level design. Level 1: Basic Layers (moving, visibility) Level 2: Advanced DHTML Level ... . . . Then we can have a simple table saying which browser goes where (we can even degrade IE 5 on MAC to Level 1 for instance). Then any real-world developer who just wants to use the library goes to his boss and shows him the table. 8an |
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From: Al B. <by...@lo...> - 2001-02-07 19:33:24
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> I have some questions on this whole topic. I am assuming that Internet > appliances will soon proliferate. I am not thinking of wireless or PDA > devices, but ones that would include a browser that supports javascript. Isn't > it possible that these devices will not be using IE? It seems like ones that > have been announced have been based on Linux. And is it not also possible that > there will be a tremendous number of these? If so, wouldn't DynAPI play an > important role in that area? -Al > > -- Al Byers Local Square, Inc. 826 N. Augusta St. Staunton, VA 24401 540.213.0500 www.localsquare.com by...@lo... |
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From: Nuno F. <nun...@wi...> - 2001-02-06 19:24:17
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(sorry Pascal if my quotes take some context out of your answer, that was not my intention, just a way of not having these emails getting longer...) >I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we >participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world (maybe >the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things just >because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are >probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. Come to think of it, why are we bothering to use DHTML when you can do "cooler" stuff in FLASH? 80% of all users (on Mac, Win or otherwise) acessing the web are using Flash 4+, so why bother? Still the need is evident for DHTML, because in all the projects that I helped build today, from the start my clients didn't want anything to do with Flash, but want Layers, animated elements, custom interfaces. Even clients so "trendy" as a Alternative-dance-music Radio Station... I don't want to enter into a politics kind of discussion, but just to make a point I'll mention that ignoring the minorities, because it's easier and logical, doesn't seem a good way to go. After all, dictatorships started on less... monopolies thrive on that point of view... And lack of competition is the worst thing that can happen to a product, or a technology, or whatever. Believe me, I've felt it and it's not a good feeling at all. >So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that works on older >browsers? Not older browsers, ALL the browsers that my clients ask for. There's a difference. >Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we holding things >back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more powerfull when >supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's >build-in eventlisteners).. Curiously enough, when I want something done only for IE, usually I use my code, and rarely I use DynAPI. Anyway, think about it, there's several DHTML API's out there, and the most popular and more developed are the one's that say: "Cross-Browser" on the title. What I'm trying to say, is that it's not for developers to dictate what the users would want to use, it's the users that determine what we should develop, don't you think? >(btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about >browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) I like discussions :)) I'm liking this one, and at least were discussing something not just saying stuff like "I like X because Y is lame!" like so many web-discussions that I read... NunoF |
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From: Michael P. <mp...@ph...> - 2001-02-07 00:20:00
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What have the most recent round of bug fizes been for? I can't remember the last time I needed to find a patch to make the API work in NS4. What is currently holding the project back is the need to rework the code just to make it work in the latest batch of browsers. Pascal wrote: > Then isn't that the big problem? That people still want THE site to be 4.x > compatible? WHY!? > > And I think we're only making that problem bigger for developers by > introducing an API that actually makes DHTML development almost a breeze > (still the biggest supporter/fan of this thing out there :). > > I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we > participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world (maybe > the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things just > because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are > probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. > > "If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will > stop using it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you > can develop some experimental stuff..." > > So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that works on older > browsers? Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we holding things > back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more powerfull when > supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's > build-in eventlisteners).. > > (btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about > browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) > > Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) > Software ontwikkelaar > Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. > http://www.oibv.com > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: dyn...@li... > > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Nuno Ferreira > > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 16:18 > > Aan: dyn...@li... > > Onderwerp: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > > > > > >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep > > supporting "old" 4.x > > >browsers? is there any need for it? > > > > At least in my world there is. > > If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, > > and/or IE 4.x I > > would > > certain would stop using it. > > > > People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when > > specifiying > > the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to > > target IE4.x and > > NS 4.x > > Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% > > of the Market > > using > > IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all > > the users to be > > able > > to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML > > optimization for the > > team > > that built the site of the biggest telecom company in > > Portugal, and they > > demanded > > that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility! > > > > I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's > > supporting > > a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32 > > b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac > > c) NS 4.x > > d) NS 6 > > > > If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that > > NS versions (at > > least > > from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and > > if you look at > > most > > statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 > > they stick to it > > until > > they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, > > because 15Mb > > downloads > > are still out of the question for the great majority. > > > > I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so > > this view maybe > > a bit biased or incomplete. > > > > You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions > > using them, just > > as you > > can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions > > using smaller > > screen > > sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...) > > > > I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this > > problem all the > > time, > > and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to > > deal with 4.x > > browsers > > a long time still. > > > > If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > > people will > > stop using > > it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where > > you can develop > > some > > experimental stuff... > > > > > > NunoF > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > Dyn...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev -- Michael Pemberton mp...@ph... ICQ: 12107010 |
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From: Michael E. <Mic...@il...> - 2001-02-06 22:27:54
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To add to your point Jordi (and I am nervous)... Our customers primary users of the application I am currently engaged in work from PC's, but about 40% of the people/products they coordinate are creative people. This is a critical part of their business, and the creative community has a dramatically higher percentage of Mac users. I think the DynAPI project has huge potential if we keep our eyes on our users needs, and not on what methodology, principal, or technology we use (although these are important to us as a group). If we fall into this trap and go for ease of implementation and sex appeal, it becomes just another cool idea/toy that never made it in the real world. From my perspective, I can safely say that our organization (250 developer across the US) would not be able to use the DynAPI if we don't support the 4.x+ browsers on PC/Mac(not that this really matters to anyone but me). Let's concentrate on getting this release working quickly and predictable cross-platform (Mac/PC), cross-browser (4.x+) before we begin worry about OO this, or widget that! Sorry about the soap-box, Mike Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Jordi 'IlMaestro' Ministral [mailto:jmi...@or...] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 08:38 To: dyn...@li... Subject: Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion Another ilustrative example: they took me to a project brainstorming. Big website, world-wide coverage including the very best of the design community. "Hey, aren't you the DHTML guru ? They told us you could add some cool and impressive effects !! " Well, yes, sure. Then they told me the target: 90% Mac users. Should I suggest they all upgrade to windows platforms or pray that DynAPI2 behaves in Mac ? At least I know the API enought to attemp some bugfixing myself. If I was not that experimented and had to watch sourceforge for that fix to come, I would get really really nervous. |
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From: Michael E. <Mic...@il...> - 2001-02-06 22:42:35
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On one of our site, we already stripped the CSS/Style crap out of lable.js (we're using the DynAPI with a JSP architecture) so we can utilize some of the added features of the newer browsers with out causing the older ones to fail. Our client loves the new features, and has no problems with the less colorful/usable app in older browsers. I think ensuring backward compatibility might be the solution to keep us from dividing into camps along the cross-browser/cross-platform line. Mike Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Richard Bennett [mailto:ma...@ri...] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 09:08 To: dyn...@li... Subject: Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion So what's wrong with ensuring backward compatibility, while adding the newest effects for the latest browsers? I don't think most customers *mind* if a little colored border, or some transparency don't show in NS4, as long as the site looks nice and readable in that browser. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pascal" <pb...@oi...> To: <dyn...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:40 PM Subject: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > Then isn't that the big problem? That people still want THE site to be 4.x > compatible? WHY!? > > And I think we're only making that problem bigger for developers by > introducing an API that actually makes DHTML development almost a breeze > (still the biggest supporter/fan of this thing out there :). > > I mean, we ALL know that 90% (more) is using IE5+ .. so why aren't we > participating on it? The webdesign world is just one screwed up world (maybe > the complete software world is?) We're trying to hang on to old things just > because 10% (less!) are using it? Marketing people or sales people are > probably laughing when they here numbers like that.. > > > "If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will > stop using it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you > can develop some experimental stuff..." > > So DynAPI is a tool that makes it possible to do code that works on older > browsers? Because that's exactly what I was saying..are we holding things > back because of the support for 4.x ? And could it be more powerfull when > supporting 5.x stuff (like IE5's behaviours, or image filters, or NS6's > build-in eventlisteners).. > > (btw. : with this discussion I'm trying to figure out a few things about > browser support and possibilities for the DynAPI) > > Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) > Software ontwikkelaar > Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. > http://www.oibv.com > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: dyn...@li... > > [mailto:dyn...@li...]Namens Nuno Ferreira > > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 16:18 > > Aan: dyn...@li... > > Onderwerp: RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > > > > > > >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep > > supporting "old" 4.x > > >browsers? is there any need for it? > > > > At least in my world there is. > > If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, > > and/or IE 4.x I > > would > > certain would stop using it. > > > > People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when > > specifiying > > the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to > > target IE4.x and > > NS 4.x > > Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% > > of the Market > > using > > IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all > > the users to be > > able > > to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML > > optimization for the > > team > > that built the site of the biggest telecom company in > > Portugal, and they > > demanded > > that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility! > > > > I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's > > supporting > > a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32 > > b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac > > c) NS 4.x > > d) NS 6 > > > > If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that > > NS versions (at > > least > > from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and > > if you look at > > most > > statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 > > they stick to it > > until > > they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, > > because 15Mb > > downloads > > are still out of the question for the great majority. > > > > I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so > > this view maybe > > a bit biased or incomplete. > > > > You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions > > using them, just > > as you > > can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions > > using smaller > > screen > > sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...) > > > > I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this > > problem all the > > time, > > and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to > > deal with 4.x > > browsers > > a long time still. > > > > If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most > > people will > > stop using > > it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where > > you can develop > > some > > experimental stuff... > > > > > > NunoF > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > Dyn...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > ____________________________________________________________ > Get your free domain name and domain-based e-mail from > Namezero.com. New! Namezero Plus domains now available. > Find out more at: http://www.namezero.com > |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 12:23:41
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It would be easy to drop every browser but IE, and force users to upgrade. If they kept on finding errors in pages they would finally update to the browser we developers choose. Things would be easier if everybody used IE as everybody uses Word and Excel, sure. Things would be easier if there were no Solaris and Linux OSs. Application development would be easier if the was only one programming language and one Database architechture. Everything would be easier if people did not have a chance to choose. But that is not a world I would want to live in. |
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From: Jordi 'I. M. <jmi...@or...> - 2001-02-06 12:59:36
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I finally got Mozilla to run in my machine. I've taken the NS6-related patches from surceforge and I'm applying them and seeing what's working and what's not. I hope to fix everything soon. Stay tuned. |
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From: Doug M. <do...@cr...> - 2001-02-06 15:19:39
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Word? I don't use it. Excel? HAHA!! anything I would want to do with excel, I'd rather do with VB.. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordi 'IlMaestro' Ministral" <jmi...@or...> To: <dyn...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:19 AM Subject: Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > It would be easy to drop every browser but IE, and force users to upgrade. If > they kept on finding errors in pages they would finally update to the browser > we developers choose. Things would be easier if everybody used IE as > everybody uses Word and Excel, sure. Things would be easier if there were no > Solaris and Linux OSs. Application development would be easier if the was > only one programming language and one Database architechture. Everything > would be easier if people did not have a chance to choose. > > But that is not a world I would want to live in. > > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev |
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From: Michael P. <mp...@ph...> - 2001-02-07 00:21:07
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I should point out that where I live, VB is one of the most powerful of tools. Oops, I'm talking about Victoria Bitter (the beer). My mistake : ) Doug Melvin wrote: > Word? I don't use it. > Excel? HAHA!! anything I would want to do with excel, > I'd rather do with VB.. > ;-) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jordi 'IlMaestro' Ministral" <jmi...@or...> > To: <dyn...@li...> > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > > > It would be easy to drop every browser but IE, and force users to upgrade. > If > > they kept on finding errors in pages they would finally update to the > browser > > we developers choose. Things would be easier if everybody used IE as > > everybody uses Word and Excel, sure. Things would be easier if there were > no > > Solaris and Linux OSs. Application development would be easier if the was > > only one programming language and one Database architechture. Everything > > would be easier if people did not have a chance to choose. > > > > But that is not a world I would want to live in. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > > Dyn...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev -- Michael Pemberton mp...@ph... ICQ: 12107010 |
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From: Michael P. <mp...@ph...> - 2001-02-06 13:43:46
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As a NS4 user, I am quite displeased with the distain that people show for netscape as a development tool. I have not moved to mozilla / ns6 because it is too IE for my likings. Have you ever tried working out what IE is doing at any given moment? I for one don't think that "downloading page xxx" / "opening page xxx" is not enough. I want to know how much of a page has been rendered. Not just how much has been loaded. I want to know how long each file is taking to download and where the progress is. I also like having direct access to java objects using js. Why use an applet if I don't need to. It al comes down to the "if M$ didn't make it, it shouldn't really be there" theory introduced. I'd also like to add that standards are GOOD. If we you don't like standards then why are we sitting down trying to make a standard API for creating DHTML content. Unfortunately too many large companies see a way of distorting the standards anough to make then proprietory. Does nay one remember Visual J++? Then you may also rememeber that Microsoft were sued for "tweaking" the security component of the java code. If microsoft really did care about web development, they would put money into assisting with the development of standards and not into taking them apart. As for NS support for DHTML, all of my problems hav arisen from clitches in JScript, not the NS implementation of JS. May I remind you that NS was developing JS while Bill was sitting on his behind yelling the internet will never take off. As for Pascal's reference to the size of NS, have you noticed how large win98 is? That 200mb increase is mostly due to the inclusion of IE. And as an external program, IE still takes up 20MB before you add outlook and plugins. NS takes up 25MB with the mail / news program and Flash / Shockwave. I should close by puting my most important bitch about IE. It is tied to your windows login. As someone who lives in a house where many people use the one system, it is not acceptable to be expected to reconnect to our ISP everytime someone else wants to check their mail. we have four poeple each using different mail account, why should we make 4 times the number of phone calls just because M$ wants to "enhance" (pronounced: "bundle") their software? I should close by saying the I would like to thank MS for keeping IT professionals like me in business. Without them, users would never have reach their current level of stupidity (oops, I think they call that "user-friendliness"). It has got to the point where some of the users in this house have to think about what they are doing when I say, show me the contents of "xxx" directory. I apologise for my rant, it is well past my bed time and I should get some sleep : ) Pieter Van Waeyenberge wrote: > I'm not very experienced webscripter, > but in my humble opinion: > > 1. Why bother having a standards organization? > 2. Isn't that what microsoft targets: embrace, enhance, extinguish (cfr. > haloween) (not my ethics) > > Since > - NS4x is still in the stats > - DYNAPI is a cross-browser dhtml lib > - Some web applications require dhtml > I think NS4 should still be supported, BUT of course im not too aware of > how much of a pain Netscape is for dhtml ... > > Pieter. > > # -----Original Message----- > # From: Pascal [mailto:pb...@oi...] > # Sent: dinsdag 6 februari 2001 12:21 > # To: dyn...@li... > # Subject: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion > # > # > # Just reading an article on freshmeat (thanks to > # www.scottandrew.com) about > # Linux problems with a good browser.. mainly targeting Mozilla. > # > # Then started thinking, I was a huge fan of Netscape.. > # operative word: WAS. > # After trying out IE5 I got annoyed by Netscape's browser: > # it's so huge. > # > # I then read about Mozilla, being a faster browser using the > # super-fast gecko > # engine (raved about by many sites and magazines). But when > # the first few > # milestones rolled out I was very dissapointed. Now NS6 is out > # and a few new > # milestones have been released, but it's still one big > # application that I > # don't need. > # > # How many of you out there are using Mozilla, and why? Is it > # just because you > # "hate" Microsoft? or is there really something I'm missing. Also for > # professional webdesigners out there, are you targeting ALL > # browsers, or just > # ignoring the Netscape "things" ? > # > # Another question (full of them today :-) is that everyone > # wants standards.. > # so why rave about Mozilla supporting the W3C standards perfectly? If > # Netscape stops, it means that Internet Explorer (win32) is > # the standard > # (almost there already I think) Sure, again Microsoft will be > # controlling > # things, but once IE is the standard, a smart company like > # Opera can easily > # move into that area, making there browser 100% IE compatible, > # and work from > # there. We now have 2 very distinct Netscape browsers and > # Internet Explorer > # and MS will not support other peoples standards..it's not the > # way they work. > # > # Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x > # browsers? is there any need for it? > # > # Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...) > # Software ontwikkelaar > # Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v. > # http://www.oibv.com > # > # > # _______________________________________________ > # Dynapi-Dev mailing list > # Dyn...@li... > # http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev > # > > _______________________________________________ > Dynapi-Dev mailing list > Dyn...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev -- Michael Pemberton mp...@ph... ICQ: 12107010 |
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