dynapi-dev

[Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion

[Pascal <pb...@oi...>]

Just reading an article on freshmeat (thanks to www.scottandrew.com) about
Linux problems with a good browser.. mainly targeting Mozilla.

Then started thinking, I was a huge fan of Netscape.. operative word: WAS.
After trying out IE5 I got annoyed by Netscape's browser: it's so huge.

I then read about Mozilla, being a faster browser using the super-fast gecko
engine (raved about by many sites and magazines). But when the first few
milestones rolled out I was very dissapointed. Now NS6 is out and a few new
milestones have been released, but it's still one big application that I
don't need.

How many of you out there are using Mozilla, and why? Is it just because you
"hate" Microsoft? or is there really something I'm missing. Also for
professional webdesigners out there, are you targeting ALL browsers, or just
ignoring the Netscape "things" ?

Another question (full of them today :-) is that everyone wants standards..
so why rave about Mozilla supporting the W3C standards perfectly? If
Netscape stops, it means that Internet Explorer (win32) is the standard
(almost there already I think) Sure, again Microsoft will be controlling
things, but once IE is the standard, a smart company like Opera can easily
move into that area, making there browser 100% IE compatible, and work from
there.  We now have 2 very distinct Netscape browsers and Internet Explorer
and MS will not support other peoples standards..it's not the way they work.

Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x
browsers? is there any need for it?

Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...)
Software ontwikkelaar
Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v.
http://www.oibv.com

Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion

[Richard B. <ma...@ri...>]

hi,
If we don't support as many browsers as possible, the need for DynAPI2
becomes questionable.
Once NS releases a NS6 version which is not so bugridden as this one, and
NS4 users start to upgrade, the support for NS4 can be reviewed.
A nice transitional process would be the inclusion of Dom/Css modules, which
allow for the latest effects in IE5.5/Mozilla/Ns6, while degrading nicely
for NS4/IE4.
For instance we could have a fadeIn() fadeOut() call for dynlayers, which
would simply show/hide in NS4/IE4.
Nice job on the WYSIWYG interface BTW.

Cheers,
Richard Bennett

ma...@ri...
www.richardinfo.com
(Everything running on, and ported to the 19/12/2000 snapshot of DynAPI2)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pascal" <pb...@oi...>
To: <dyn...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion


> Just reading an article on freshmeat (thanks to www.scottandrew.com) about
> Linux problems with a good browser.. mainly targeting Mozilla.
>
> Then started thinking, I was a huge fan of Netscape.. operative word: WAS.
> After trying out IE5 I got annoyed by Netscape's browser: it's so huge.
>
> I then read about Mozilla, being a faster browser using the super-fast
gecko
> engine (raved about by many sites and magazines). But when the first few
> milestones rolled out I was very dissapointed. Now NS6 is out and a few
new
> milestones have been released, but it's still one big application that I
> don't need.
>
> How many of you out there are using Mozilla, and why? Is it just because
you
> "hate" Microsoft? or is there really something I'm missing. Also for
> professional webdesigners out there, are you targeting ALL browsers, or
just
> ignoring the Netscape "things" ?
>
> Another question (full of them today :-) is that everyone wants
standards..
> so why rave about Mozilla supporting the W3C standards perfectly? If
> Netscape stops, it means that Internet Explorer (win32) is the standard
> (almost there already I think) Sure, again Microsoft will be controlling
> things, but once IE is the standard, a smart company like Opera can easily
> move into that area, making there browser 100% IE compatible, and work
from
> there.  We now have 2 very distinct Netscape browsers and Internet
Explorer
> and MS will not support other peoples standards..it's not the way they
work.
>
> Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x
> browsers? is there any need for it?
>
> Pascal Bestebroer (pb...@oi...)
> Software ontwikkelaar
> Oberon Informatiesystemen b.v.
> http://www.oibv.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dynapi-Dev mailing list
> Dyn...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dynapi-dev
> ____________________________________________________________
> Get your free domain name and domain-based e-mail from
> Namezero.com. New!  Namezero Plus domains now available.
> Find out more at: http://www.namezero.com
>

RE: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion

[Nuno F. <nun...@wi...>]

	>Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x
	>browsers? is there any need for it?

At least in my world there is.
If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, and/or IE 4.x I
would
certain would stop using it.

People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when
specifiying
the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to target IE4.x and
NS 4.x
Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% of the Market
using
IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all the users to be
able
to access their site. Some months ago I did some HTML optimization for the
team
that built the site of the biggest telecom company in Portugal, and they
demanded
that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility!

I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's
supporting
	a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32
	b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac
	c) NS 4.x
	d) NS 6

If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that NS versions (at
least
from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and if you look at
most
statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 they stick to it
until
they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, because 15Mb
downloads
are still out of the question for the great majority.

I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so this view maybe
a bit biased or incomplete.

You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions using them, just
as you
can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions using smaller
screen
sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...)

I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this problem all the
time,
and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to deal with 4.x
browsers
a long time still.

If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will
stop using
it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you can develop
some
experimental stuff...


NunoF

Re: [Dynapi-Dev] Netscape 6 discussion

[Doug M. <do...@cr...>]

I just wanted to add my support to what was said here.


>
> >Leading to my real question: should DynAPI keep supporting "old" 4.x
> >browsers? is there any need for it?
>
> At least in my world there is.
> If, for instance, the DynAPI stopped supporting NS 4.x, and/or IE 4.x I
> would
> certain would stop using it.

I would be forced to move on myself.

> People forget that usually, a client, particulary, a BIG Client, when
> specifiying
> the Browser target for his/her web page, usually wants to target IE4.x and
> NS 4.x

VERY true.. In fact, I have had to argue, plead and even beg to get a client
to
give up their hopse of supporting 3.x browsers..
(Don't ask them why they should support 3.x..
someone told them sometime that the should.... )
:-)

> Trust me, they don't care if the latest statistics show 90% of the Market
> using
> IE, they care about the other 10% too, because they want all the users to
be
> able
> to access their site.

In the case of my first client, the everage over-seas order exceeds $20,000
CDN.
If you are telling one in 4 people that 'sorry you can't order from us',
that can add up to a lot of "lost" money.. or so it seems the the business
man..

>Some months ago I did some HTML optimization for the
> team
> that built the site of the biggest telecom company in Portugal, and they
> demanded
> that we should maintain IE 3x and NS 3x compatibility!

I feel for you friend.. :-)

> I do think that the main problem is not supporting NS and IE, it's
> supporting
> a) IE 4.x, IE 5.0, IE 5.5 on Win32
> b) IE 4.x, IE 5.5 on Mac
> c) NS 4.x
> d) NS 6
>
> If you look closely there's more IE versions out there that NS versions
(at
> least
> from a pratical point of view). Most users are very lazy, and if you look
at
> most
> statistics, and if their version of Win has IE 4, or IE 5.0 they stick to
it
> until
> they cannot view a page decently, and only then they upgrade, because 15Mb
> downloads
> are still out of the question for the great majority.
>
> I don't know if NS 4 is the same on Linux, Win32 and Mac, so this view
maybe
> a bit biased or incomplete.
>
> You can't ignore 4.x versions as long as there's millions using them, just
> as you

Certain departments of the canadian government STILL use older version of
NS,
of course they actually had to pay for their licenses..

> can't start developing for a 1024x768 while there's millions using smaller
> screen
> sizes (actually 800x600 is still the most widely used screen size...)

One of the part-time writers for www.allthewhile.com (my news, site..
shameless plug? .. :-)
still works at 640x480..

Not only that, but realy should start wondering how their site will look on
web TV
of on the many hand-held Internet devices comming onto the market..
> I work in a Web Design and Development so I deal with this problem all the
> time,
> and I can safely say that professionaly, we're gonna have to deal with 4.x
> browsers
> a long time still.
>
> If the move was to end supporting 4.x browsers, I think most people will
> stop using
> it professionaly, and treat it just like a cool thing where you can
develop
> some
> experimental stuff...

Whch I probably would.. :-)

Doug