Re: [DM-dev] Re: Suggestions for work on DungeonMaker (Peters reply)

[Henningsen <sh...@gl...>]

>         I'd forgotten this list, it's been silent for so long.... but it's 
>interesting to see something happen.

Yeah. I think I'm gonna write DungeonMaker 3 pretty soon.

>         As far as I recall, by approach was a little different to 
>yours.  I used the concept of a grammar for a dungeon, .....
> (snip).....  These properties, enable dungeons with 
>topologically complex features (e.g. keys behind doors behind doors behind 
>teleports) to be randomly created with the guarantee that they remain possible.

Very different indeed. My dungeons are created by alife-entities that crawl
through the dungeon space laying down walls or digging tunnels. Walls,
tunnels and rooms is all the Dungeonmaker makes right now, and that's
probably not useful enough for potential users. So main objective number 1
is to include all kinds of other features like traps, lavapools, and
powerups. Objective number 2 is to see the dungeons in glorious 3D.

>>1. Converting the 2D world into a 3D world and managing movement.
>>2. Developing the AI for the MOB's.
>
>I probably knew what a "MOB" was back when I first signed up but now I 
>forgot.  What is it?

Mobile Objects, also called monsters or NPCs.

>>I believe that there is an intermediate step that can be made, that of
>>developing
>>proof-of-concept (or demo) systems in 2D.
>
>On general principles, this is a very good idea.

On software development principles it is good not to take too large a step
at a time, I totally agree with that. But there's a problem with developing
dungeon creation software in a 2D view, and then switching the finished
product over to 3D: it just might suck. Plus, almost certainly I would
immediately get all kinds of ideas on how to improve the software to get
this or that nice 3D effect. Another problem is that I think when one
includes things in the dungeon creation process like ornamentation around
doors and generally "look-good"-features, these are all very specific to the
3D graphics engine one uses. So my development process will be like this:
First step, port the existing DungeonMaker to the Cube engine, generating
Cube environments (which can immediately be played and explored and
evaluated). Then I'll take one step after another, implementing nice new
features that I want to see in my Cube dungeons. All the while keeping the
code such that Cube-specific and general features are in different modules.
I think this allows for a better software-design process than sticking with
2D display for starters.

>I'll jump in here as somebody totally new but, did you consider having it 
>write DOOM WAD files as the output (or some such similar "standard" 
>format).  That's a bit further away from pen and paper games, but you might 
>be able to hook into an existing community...

No, that's a community I know nothing about, and I never liked Doom or
Quake. Cube has a community too, though small for now. My main interest is
in alife and AI, and I really want to write the MOB-AI for an RPG-type game,
where the MOBs don't just stand around waiting to be killed, but conduct
their own "lives" and will respond to the players' actions in a realistic
way. I want players to be able to be allied with groups of MOBs, and to
evolve/engineer their own AI for "their" MOBs, and in this manner evolve
"better" AI. So the dungeons are just a backdrop for me, but I still want
them to be good, and useful for other game developers too.

Just to give all you guys on the list an idea what I'm thinking about, my
basic approach will be to create a new type of entity (call them
"Evaluators" for now), who will move through a dungeon as made by DM2, and
diagnose local environments. E.g., when they find a dead end tunnel, they
will then check for available space, and either add a door and room to it,
or place a worker with a shovel at the end of the tunnel. When they find a
place where a small side tunnel (10 Cubes high) meets a wide main tunnel
(100 Cubes high) they might widen the small tunnel at the junction for a
better look and richer tactical possibilities, or put two columns inside the
large tunnel as cover for anyone coming out of the small one. Etc. etc.
These guys will also place keys in the proper locations, test dungeons for
connectivity, and place all kinds of other objects.

>         Ian Badcoe
>Living@Home - Open Source Evolving Organisms - 
>http://livingathome.sourceforge.net/

Couldn't find anything at your website, Ian. Sounds very interesting,
though. Why don't you tell me off-list what you're up to??

Peter