## docutils-users — General discussions, questions, help requests.

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 [Docutils-users] rst2beamer: problem with the fragile option From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 23:44:45 Here's another reason not to set the fragile option by default: 12.9 Verbatim and Fragile Text If you wish to use a {verbatim} environment in a frame, you have to add the option [fragile] to the {frame} environment. In this case, you really have to use the {frame} environment (not the \frame command) and the \end{frame} must be alone on a single line. Using this option will cause the frame contents to be written to an external file and then read back. See the description of the {frame} environment for more details. An example implication: suppose you put in a slide .. raw:: latex $a = b$ Then rst2beamer will write a document that won't compile (because the fragile option is set, but \end{frame} will not be on its own line. So the request is: please let us choose which frames are fragile but setting a class (with the class directive). Cheers, Alan Isaac 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2beamer From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 21:25:42 On 9/10/2010 3:23 PM, Stefan Merten wrote: > I'm a bit confused about the author of the alternative rst2beamer > implementation. Roberto? Ryan? The authors are Ryan and Paul-Michael (who have not yet expressed an opinion about moving their project to the sandbox). Cheers, Alan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] reST -> slides: first thoughts From: Stefan Merten - 2010-09-10 19:58:13 Attachments: application/pgp-signature Hi Alan and all! This is a very useful initiative! I have a couple of ideas. See below. 4 days ago Alan G Isaac wrote: > A Need > ====== > > One definite need is a test document that all slide writers > should be able to handle. Yes! > Some Problems > ============= > > 1. There is no settled reST slide format, so writers > do not offer consistent handling I could imagine having a family of writers all producing slides but in different formats. May be we could even have special directives or roles for this family? > 2. The following are desirable but potential conflict: > > - title > - optional subtitle > - optional sections > - optional subsections > - implementing slides with standard reST sectioning > > - easier to write > - looks a lot better as text Why do you think they are potential conflicts? > Solution to Problem 2 > ===================== > > A possible solution within current reST syntax is > for the lowest section level to always be treated > as slides. This means that if you want sections and > subsections, the first slides must be in a section > and in a subsection. (rst2beamer takes this approach; > rst2s5 does not. It seems to be the right approach.) I think we need a concept for this topic. Some thoughts. There are two general types of presentations: Flat and hierarchical ones. Some formats such as PowerPoint support only flat slides. Other formats such as beamer support hierarchical slides. Subsectioning is certainly a point for the latter. The question already discussed in this thread is how hierarchical slides are mapped to a presentation. What seems to be clear is that there is a "leaf level" which contains the real slides. The question is how to handle the higher sections. IMHO there are these options: * Use higher sections for explicit navigation In beamer there are lots of styles which contain explicit navigation. This would be certainly an option but only for those formats supporting explicit navigation. * Generate intermediate "agenda" slides from higher sections Another common pattern is to have an agenda slide and between higher sections insert a special agenda slide showing the current location in the presentation. This should be an option for all writers. * Generate a structure title When I used MagicPoint for my presentations I used a structured title on each slide as navigation hint. I had a top level element which usually rendered in a small font and the title of the slide in bigger font. This should be an option for most if not all writers. I'd find it very useful if there would be an option common to all slide writers which decides which variant to take. Here are some more thoughts. * Agenda slides by .. contents:: A .. contents:: directive should be transformed to an agenda slide. As a variant of the agenda slides idea mentioned above this could be done for every .. contents:: directive. * Supported reST features It would be useful if the reST features which should be supported are defined. For instance support for inline markup and images. * Rendering as normal document by standard writers A reST document meant as a slide set should render all content normally by the standard writers. * Support for notes Some formats allow for notes. There should be some syntax to markup notes as such and render them as notes in formats supporting them. The easiest way would be to define special classes for this purpose. * Support for pauses Some formats allow for pauses in the presentation. In particular in beamer slides you can set pauses as you like. There should be some way to write pauses. I'm using. :: .. |p| raw:: latex \pause The syntax for this should be minimal (like in the substitution above) and should be ignored by standard writers. BTW: I remember vaguely that there was a solution for S5 using standard role. I disliked this because a pause is at a certain *point* whereas a role marks a *region*. The obvious question is: Is the pause done at the beginning or the end of the region? > rst2beamer Improvement Suggestions > ================================== I didn't check for the rst2beamer implementation but IMHO it should subclass the / an LaTeX writer to inherit all the benefits from it. > PowerPoint Slides > ================= > > Solution: rst2outline http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/rst2outline/ > > :: > > rst2outline slides.rst slides.txt > powerpnt.exe slides.txt There is another option in PowerPoint where you can insert slides from such an outline. This is a great way to include slides into a given format template. May be you can mention this? Grüße Stefan 
 [Docutils-users] State of rst2beamer implementations (was: Re: reST -> slides: first thoughts) From: Stefan Merten - 2010-09-10 19:58:12 Attachments: application/pgp-signature Hi Alan and Roberto! 3 days ago Alan G Isaac wrote: >>> PDF Slides: rst2beamer > > On 9/7/2010 6:19 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: >> Keep in mind that there are at least two independent implementations >> under the same name. > > Aha! So the version in the sandbox is unrelated to the version on PyPI? Yes. This was an independent approach and probably no approach knew of the other. The general idea of the sandbox approach is to use the LaTeX writer as the super class making many things easy to solve. However, this broke when the super class changed massively :-( . I'd vote for including Roberto's (?) implementation to the sandbox. Grüße Stefan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] reST -> slides: first thoughts From: Stefan Merten - 2010-09-10 19:58:12 Attachments: application/pgp-signature Hi Günter and all! 3 days ago Guenter Milde wrote: > For improved flexibility Flexibility is a point. But I don't understood why it is needed. > and compatibility with other writers, I support that goal. But do classes not supported by other writers really help this goal? My first feeling is scepticism. > I propose a > > class argument based approach to slides with reStructuredText > ------------------------------------------------------------- The problem with this approach for me is: It introduces a lot of degrees of freedom which is useful re flexibility but not useful re easyness and compatibility. The lots of degrees of freedom end up in difficult problems you already discussed in this thread. One thing I really love reStructuredText for that easy things are easy and intuitive to accomplish (most of the syntax) and complicated things are possible (directives). I'd welcome if this approach could be kept when thinking about conventions for slides. > Objects can be "decorated" with special class arguments: > > newslide > place this object on a new slide Well, I like this coupling because it's intuitive. May be you can add transitions to the list of supported structures to end up as headerless slides. > newoverlay > place this object on a new "overlay" (which gives the appearance of > incremental exposure of a given slide). In my previous mail I proposed a syntax for a pause. My main point is that such a syntax must be tiny and inline so it doesn't disturb you when you are reading the source. Classes do not have these features. Roles may but roles are for regions whereas here you have a point. Substitutions are the only standard reST facility coming to my mind which seem fit here. > notesonly > do not place this object on a slide (i.e. ignore when producing slides) > (Can be achieved without changes to Docutils via the > strip-elements-with-class setting). That is something which I consider useful. An alternative would be a special directive for the slide family of writers but then there is a problem with compatibility. > slidesonly > do not place this object in the notes (i.e. when generating > standard HTML/LaTeX/PDF output for the handout or notes). > (Can be achieved without changes to Docutils via the > strip-elements-with-class setting). Could make sense though I don't see the use case for this class. > Advantages: > > * De-coupling of slide structure and sectioning. Well, personally I find this coupling useful and intuitive. Thus I find a de-coupling counter-intuitive. > * Slide source remains a valid reStructuredText document without > additions to the rst syntax. I agree that needs to be a top goal. > * For simpler input, slide writers might use a config setting / command > line argument [...] > say :: > > --slide-section-level=N > Add "newslide" to all section headings of level N. > > which, with N==1, would result in the current rst2s5 behaviour. *If* we really need the flexibility here then I'd prefer a convention over configuration approach. By default the sectioning is the lead but you may use special classes like you suggested to ignore the section structure. Grüße Stefan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2beamer From: Stefan Merten - 2010-09-10 19:58:11 Attachments: application/pgp-signature Hi Günter! 2 days ago Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2010-09-06, Stefan Merten wrote: >> Yesterday Alan G Isaac wrote: > >>> I'm finding the rst2beamer situation a bit confusing. > >> It is :-( . > > I corrected the author in rst2beamer.py in the sandbox. Thanks. >> The version in the sandbox is indeed by me. It used the LaTeX >> implementation as a super class. After I wrote rst2beamer the LaTeX >> implementation has been changed massively and so with current versions >> of docutils rst2beamer doesn't work any more :-( . This certainly >> needs fixing... > > Do you plan to maintain/fix the sandbox code or is this an "orphaned" > project? Well, I'm not keen to develop this further if there is an alternative - which seems to be the case. However, this alternative should be moved to the sandbox then. > I cannot put much effort in it but I can help with adaption to the > current state of the latex writer. From the discussions here I reckon the alternative implementation is more useful and thus I'd rather vote for merging the implementations - or rather the ideas. The central idea of my version is the subclassing of the latex writer. I'm a bit confused about the author of the alternative rst2beamer implementation. Roberto? Ryan? In any case: Does this make sense to you? Grüße Stefan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2pdf questions From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 18:43:33 On 9/9/2010 9:24 PM, Roberto Alsina wrote: > if you use -s a4-landscape you get ... a4 landscape Thanks! Alan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] Custom header/footers not working for rst2odt From: Bryan Vicknair - 2010-09-10 16:10:13 Dave Kuhlman rexx.com> writes: > I've made a fix for the problem with --custom-odt-header and > --custom-odt-footer in odf-odt writer. And I've checked it in to the SVN > repository. > > Byran, thanks for helping me track this down. I'll send you the update in a > separate email, in case you do not get Docutils from the SVN repository. > > - Dave That patch seems to have fixed it. Thanks for all the help and quick turnaround Dave. Bryan 
 [Docutils-users] latex writer request: two part table From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 15:48:23 Can the LaTeX writer make the two-part table below look good? (Here's the image: http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/bios/board/bernanke_ben.jpg) Currently the image alignment messes things up. I believe that in situations like this, the top of the image and the list should each be aligned with the top of the cell. (Nothing else looks good.) Thanks, Alan Isaac .. list-table:: * + .. image:: bernanke_ben.jpg + PhD from MIT 1979 Chair, Princeton Econ Dpt 1996 - 2002 Member, Fed BoG 2002 - 2005 Chair, CEA June 2005 - Jan 2006 Chair, BoG of Fed Feb 2006 - present 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 14:22:53 >> On 9/9/2010 9:49 PM, David Goodger wrote: >>> Grid tables are a pain to use, but possible. > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:59, Alan G Isaac wrote: >> It might be useful to mention grid tables in the >> table documentation here: >> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#tables >> (Otherwise, they can easily be overlooked.) On 9/10/2010 10:06 AM, David Goodger wrote: > I disagree. That's the documentation for directives, not general reST > syntax (grid table syntax is not a directive). Fully documented here: > http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#grid-tables I only meant adding something like the following: Grid tables and simple tables can be associated with a title by using the "table" directive. But whatever. Alan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: David Goodger - 2010-09-10 14:06:31 On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 09:59, Alan G Isaac wrote: > On 9/9/2010 9:49 PM, David Goodger wrote: >> Grid tables are a pain to use, but possible. > > It might be useful to mention grid tables in the > table documentation here: > http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#tables > (Otherwise, they can easily be overlooked.) I disagree. That's the documentation for directives, not general reST syntax (grid table syntax is not a directive). Fully documented here: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#grid-tables -- David Goodger ; 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 13:59:28 On 9/9/2010 9:49 PM, David Goodger wrote: > Grid tables are a pain to use, but possible. It might be useful to mention grid tables in the table documentation here: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#tables (Otherwise, they can easily be overlooked.) Alan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 13:40:20 On 9/9/2010 9:49 PM, David Goodger wrote: > Simple tables won't work: "Simple tables allow multi-line rows (in > all but the first column)" (reST markup spec). Ah, that's the clue. If I put the image in the *first* column (and don't need any options) I can use a simple table. Unfortunately, the LaTeX writer does not do anything to place the image nicely in its cell, and the LaTeX default behavior produces a bad outcome. But in principle, this can work (and does work nicely for HTML writers, and pretty nice for rst2pdf as well). The list table you suggested also works (but of course has the same LaTeX display difficulties). Thanks! Alan 
 Re: [Docutils-users] reST math From: Roberto Alsina - 2010-09-10 12:45:49 On Friday 10 September 2010 09:40:53 Alan G Isaac wrote: > Note that rst2pdf already implements a math directive, > using iiuc the mathtext engine from Matplotlib. Yes. It's not very polished, but it mostly works. 
 Re: [Docutils-users] reST math From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 12:41:07 On 9/10/2010 3:26 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: > Initial version: > * :math: role and .. math:: directive > * content written in the syntax of TeX math mode, e.g.:: > f(x) = \sin2(x) + \beta > * latex2e writer wraps it in  or  > * html writer(s) generate or
with class='math' > content is treated like normal text (escaping special HTML chars) > * odt writer ????? > * PDF writer (reportlab) should be fine (?). This seems mostly good to me. I would just add: - do it by moving Jens's work (known to work quite well) into the core. This already handles multi-line equations. - make sure all writer can just present the math as (parsed) literal text, as transition. - E.g., the odt writer could start this way. (Actually OO allows LaTeX input, so there may be a simple solution.) Note that rst2pdf already implements a math directive, using iiuc the mathtext engine from Matplotlib. Alan 
 [Docutils-users] reST math (was: custom directive) From: Guenter Milde - 2010-09-10 07:26:33 On 2010-09-10, Alan G Isaac wrote: > On 9/9/2010 8:03 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: >> For math, the problem remains that LaTeX would expect the raw content >> (i.e. \sin(x) without escaped \textbackslash), while HTML would e.g. >> choke on< and>. This also prevents the use of a "literal" wrapper. > How did Jens deal with this? Look at his sources and/or documentation :-) > Something usable *now* is better than waiting for > perfection, especially if from the user perspective > there is just a math directive that produces better and > better output as docutils is slowly improved. Agreed. However: * There should be a general agreement on the direction to go, * There should be a general agreement on the way to do it. (David Goodger suggested a math-branch, I shy away from the overhead involved in setting up a branch and later merging.) * Someone has to do it. > If the design is uncertain, just label it "experimental" in the docs, > and indicate it is subject to change. As I recall it, David blessed > using LaTeX for the content of the math directive, so LaTeX writers > will surely just wrap this content. Proposal -------- see also http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/dev/todo.html (search for 'math'). Initial version: * :math: role and .. math:: directive * content written in the syntax of TeX math mode, e.g.:: f(x) = \sin^2(x) + \beta * latex2e writer wraps it in  or  * html writer(s) generate or
with class='math' content is treated like normal text (escaping special HTML chars) * odt writer ????? * PDF writer (reportlab) should be fine (?). Improvements that can be incrementally implemented: * accept Unicode input:: f(x) = \sin²(x) + β (conversion to TeX syntax in the latex2e writer). * options for multi-line equation environments * TeX -> MathML converter as a transform that can be called by "interested" writers (based on the latex-math sandbox project). * Alternative format converters: TeX -> SVG (via dvisvg) TeX -> PNG (existing add-on for Sphinx) TeX -> MathJax (existing add-on for Sphinx) TeX -> Unicode * Alternative input formats (see http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/dev/todo.html) 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: David Goodger - 2010-09-10 01:50:03 On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 21:08, Alan G Isaac wrote: > On 9/9/2010 11:54 AM, David Goodger wrote: >> Use a grid table, or a table directive (e.g. list-table). > > I'm not seeing how. (I.e., when I try, it does not work). > My table:: > >    +--------------+---------------+ >    | - I          | And over here | >    | - want       | I want an     | >    | - my         | image (so it  | >    |   - list     | is beside     | >    |   - here     | that list)    | >    +--------------+---------------+ > > Possible? Yes. Grid tables are a pain to use, but possible. Simply: +--------------+----------------+ | - list | .. image:: | | - here | myimage.png | | | | | - sublist | | | - here | | +--------------+----------------+ > Here is how I would like to be able to do it. > > ==============  ====================== > .. container::  .. image:: myimage.png > >    - I >    - want >    - my >      - list >      - here > ==============  ====================== > > But the container gets no content. Simple tables won't work: "Simple tables allow multi-line rows (in all but the first column)" (reST markup spec). What are you trying to accomplish using a container? Easiest, but not WYSIWYG: .. list-table:: * + - list - here - sublist - here + .. image:: myimage.png -- David Goodger ; 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2pdf questions From: Roberto Alsina - 2010-09-10 01:46:16 On Thursday 09 September 2010 22:24:40 Roberto Alsina wrote: > > - Is it not possible to just let the image overflow > > the slide bounds? > > Basically.... no. Or at least, I never expected that to be useful, so it's > not possible right now. Checked: can't be done. Reportlab won't let you have a flowable larger than the frame where it goes. A possibility is clipping the image to the frame, but that has evil side effects with pagination that are not trivial to handle (for example, you have 1cm left in the frame, and add a 5cm image. Clip it or break to next frame?) 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2pdf questions From: Roberto Alsina - 2010-09-10 01:24:31 On Thursday 09 September 2010 21:53:34 Alan G Isaac wrote: > 1. I set a width for a picture, which turned out to > produce a height that was too large. No output was > produced, and the error msg from reportlab was not > particularly helpful (it did not include the file name > for the image or the line number in the reST file). > > - Is it not possible to just let the image overflow > the slide bounds? Basically.... no. Or at least, I never expected that to be useful, so it's not possible right now. > - Could the error msg be improved (perhaps by handling > the reportlab LayoutError? By the time it fails we don't have any information about the docutils node anymore. I'll see if I can propagate it. > - Since everything has worked up until this point, > could the successful pages be written? No, PDFs don't work that way. At least not when you use reportlab :-) > 2. Is it possible to ask for the standard paper sizes but > with landscape orientation? Sure. I just did it in r2336, just for you ;-) Now, if you use -s a4-landscape you get ... a4 landscape. Anyway for slides I tend to use a custom page size that matches the aspect ratio of the screen I'll be using, like 8cm x 12cm. > 3. I'd like less space between a list item and subsequent > sublist and more between a list and subsequent objects. > Is this easy to do? (Actually, I urge changing the > defaults.) For example: > > - After this item will be too much vspace. > > - After this item there will be too little vspace. > > Similarly, when definitions contain lists > - there will be too much space before this first item > - and too little space after this last item > > I think the problem is that lists have too much top > padding and not enough bottom padding. Yes, this is really not very good looking. > 4. In a style file, :: > > "showHeader" : false, > > works fine but :: > > "showHeader" : False, > > fails. This seems perverse in a Python application. Sorry, that file is javascript, not Python. I won't let my apps read executable config data :-) 
 Re: [Docutils-users] 2 part table From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 01:08:45 On 9/9/2010 11:54 AM, David Goodger wrote: > Use a grid table, or a table directive (e.g. list-table). I'm not seeing how. (I.e., when I try, it does not work). My table:: +--------------+---------------+ | - I | And over here | | - want | I want an | | - my | image (so it | | - list | is beside | | - here | that list) | +--------------+---------------+ Possible? Here is how I would like to be able to do it. ============== ====================== .. container:: .. image:: myimage.png - I - want - my - list - here ============== ====================== But the container gets no content. Thanks, Alan 
 [Docutils-users] rst2pdf questions From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 00:53:49 1. I set a width for a picture, which turned out to produce a height that was too large. No output was produced, and the error msg from reportlab was not particularly helpful (it did not include the file name for the image or the line number in the reST file). - Is it not possible to just let the image overflow the slide bounds? - Could the error msg be improved (perhaps by handling the reportlab LayoutError? - Since everything has worked up until this point, could the successful pages be written? 2. Is it possible to ask for the standard paper sizes but with landscape orientation? 3. I'd like less space between a list item and subsequent sublist and more between a list and subsequent objects. Is this easy to do? (Actually, I urge changing the defaults.) For example: - After this item will be too much vspace. - After this item there will be too little vspace. Similarly, when definitions contain lists - there will be too much space before this first item - and too little space after this last item I think the problem is that lists have too much top padding and not enough bottom padding. 4. In a style file, :: "showHeader" : false, works fine but :: "showHeader" : False, fails. This seems perverse in a Python application. Cheers, Alan Isaac 
 Re: [Docutils-users] rst2beamer From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 00:52:55 On 9/9/2010 8:15 AM, Ryan Krauss wrote: > I will work on your requests. Thanks. (Did you think about moving the project to the docutils sandbox?) > I will need to think about how to turn incrementalism on an off on a > case-by case-basis. I welcome any suggestions. I really think responding to a user provided class is the right way to go. Within a slide, you can just do what you do now on a document-global basis. The existing option could be used to set the class on every slide. > I must be evil because I like it on by default. I'm pretty sure I recall Tufte urging presenters not to try to control their audience's access to information this way. He may not have used the word "evil". ;-) Thanks! Alan PS The most urgent change is to fix the breakage in the handling of the docinfo and subtitle. You should be able to draw directly on rst2latex for this. 
 Re: [Docutils-users] custom directive From: Alan G Isaac - 2010-09-10 00:46:05 On 9/9/2010 8:03 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: > For math, the problem remains that LaTeX would expect the raw content > (i.e. \sin(x) without escaped \textbackslash), while HTML would e.g. > choke on< and>. This also prevents the use of a "literal" wrapper. How did Jens deal with this? Is there a flaw in his design? (I've found the output very usable.) Something usable *now* is better than waiting for perfection, especially if from the user perspective there is just a math directive that produces better and better output as docutils is slowly improved. If the design is uncertain, just label it "experimental" in the docs, and indicate it is subject to change. As I recall it, David blessed using LaTeX for the content of the math directive, so LaTeX writers will surely just wrap this content. Cheers, Alan 

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