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From: Guenter Milde <milde@us...>  20101030 20:52:43

Dear Docutils developers, especially Dave and Engelbert, with a "math" directive and role in place in the SVN repo, it is time to consider support in the manual and odt writers: Manual writer  How should mathematics be presented: a) convert to text (can we use Unicode?) b) literal LaTeX source c) not at all (throw an error: Math is not supported in manuals) GM: a) is better but b) is simpler to do. ODT writer  * MathML can be imported by the Math module. The ODT writer could import parse_latex_math from docutils.latex2mathml and Convert from LaTeX to MathML like the HTML writer. Putting MathML into an ODT file seems tricky but not impossible: http://idippedut.dk/post/2008/01/25/DoyourmathODFandMathML.aspx http://idippedut.dk/post/2008/03/03/NowIgetitODFandMathML.aspx * OOoLaTeX__: "a set of macros designed to bring the power of LaTeX into OpenOffice." __ http://ooolatex.sourceforge.net/ I'd prefer to wait for your responses before making the math support "official" by documenting the math directive and role. Günter 
From: engelbert gruber <engelbert.gruber@gm...>  20101031 07:11:53

Dear Guenter, for the manpagewriter man pages are in roff. Roff is a textformatting program, to support special features roff uses preprocessors that recognize certain input and produces roff output that produces the graphics. The folloowing preprocessors exist: eqn  equations pic  pictures tbl  tables On MacOSX are 3 manpages (javadoc, jdb, jstat) that use tables and nne that uses equations. So for manpages the equation support is unimportant. If one wants to do it, beaware not all eqn preprocessors are equal. * 1978 Typesetting Mathematics : http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps * for man pages in consoles neqn is the target. If we consider that the manpage writer was done to easy production of man pages, we might leave equations out of it. Cheers engelbert On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Guenter Milde <milde@...> wrote: > Dear Docutils developers, especially Dave and Engelbert, > > with a "math" directive and role in place in the SVN repo, it is time > to consider support in the manual and odt writers: > > Manual writer >  > > How should mathematics be presented: > > a) convert to text (can we use Unicode?) > > b) literal LaTeX source > > c) not at all (throw an error: Math is not supported in manuals) > > GM: a) is better but b) is simpler to do. > > > ODT writer >  > > * MathML can be imported by the Math module. > > The ODT writer could import parse_latex_math > from docutils.latex2mathml and Convert from LaTeX to MathML like the > HTML writer. > > Putting MathML into an ODT file seems tricky but not impossible: > http://idippedut.dk/post/2008/01/25/DoyourmathODFandMathML.aspx > http://idippedut.dk/post/2008/03/03/NowIgetitODFandMathML.aspx > > > * OOoLaTeX__: "a set of macros designed to bring the power of LaTeX > into OpenOffice." > > __ http://ooolatex.sourceforge.net/ > > > I'd prefer to wait for your responses before making the math support > "official" by documenting the math directive and role. > > Günter > > >  > Nokia and AT&T present the 2010 Calling All InnovatorsNorth America contest > Create new apps & games for the Nokia N8 for consumers in U.S. and Canada > $10 million total in prizes  $4M cash, 500 devices, nearly $6M in marketing > Develop with Nokia Qt SDK, Web Runtime, or Java and Publish to Ovi Store > http://p.sf.net/sfu/nokiadev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Docutilsdevelop mailing list > Docutilsdevelop@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/docutilsdevelop > > Please use "Reply All" to reply to the list. > 
From: Guenter Milde <milde@us...>  20101101 20:20:31

On 20101031, engelbert gruber wrote: > Dear Guenter, > for the manpagewriter ... > The folloowing preprocessors exist: > eqn  equations ... > So for manpages the equation support is unimportant. > If one wants to do it, beaware not all eqn preprocessors are equal. > * for man pages in consoles neqn is the target. On my Debian/Linux system, the eqn manpage says: GNU eqn does not provide the functionality of neqn: it does not support lowresolution, typewriterlike devices (although it may work ade‐ quately for very simple input). IMO, "the right way" would be a "latexmath > troff" or a "latexmath > text" converter that bypasses the eqn preprocessor. > If we consider that the manpage writer was done to easy production of > man pages, we might leave > equations out of it. Agreed. Could we model visit_math() and visit_math_block() on visit_image() then? (Printing the nodes content (the latex source) instead of the URL or alttext.) Günter 
From: engelbert gruber <engelbert.gruber@gm...>  20101101 21:23:17

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Guenter Milde <milde@...> wrote: > On 20101031, engelbert gruber wrote: > >> The folloowing preprocessors exist: > >> eqn  equations > ... > >> So for manpages the equation support is unimportant. > >> If one wants to do it, beaware not all eqn preprocessors are equal. > >> * for man pages in consoles neqn is the target. > > On my Debian/Linux system, the eqn manpage says: > > GNU eqn does not provide the functionality of neqn: it does not > support lowresolution, typewriterlike devices (although it may > work ade‐ quately for very simple input). > > IMO, "the right way" would be a "latexmath > troff" or a "latexmath > > text" converter that bypasses the eqn preprocessor. I understand your logic, but dont agree. * latexmath > troff: is only harder to do than latexmath > eqn. eqn: will translate to roff for free. The output will be consistent on the system, but will be printable. * latexmath > text: might be usable, but i donot know how hard, and what is text anyway (unicode console ?) OTOH: eqn input looks like :: x=2 pi int sin ( omega t)dt int means integral. the rest is pretty readable, so latexmath > eqn might be considered latexmath > text somehow. BUT i read in some places i fail to find again, that newer eqn is closer to latex. All in all i would show the latex output, and if someone is in need for eqn he should stand up and say so. I prefer a customer giving targets, my imaginations limits are too wide. cheers 
From: Guenter Milde <milde@us...>  20101102 11:06:18

On 20101101, engelbert gruber wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Guenter Milde <milde@...> wrote: >> On 20101031, engelbert gruber wrote: >>> So for manpages the equation support is unimportant. This is the main point and this we agree on. So the discussion below should not stand in the way. > * latexmath > troff: is only harder to do than latexmath > eqn. > eqn: will translate to roff for free. > The output will be consistent on the system, but will be printable. What would be the command sequence I had to use to translate manpagewriter output with eqnequations to a man page I can view with `man`? > * latexmath > text: might be usable, but i donot know how hard, and > what is text anyway (unicode console ?) For output formats without math support, I consider a conversion to either * Plain text with Unicode (𝑥 = 2π∫ sin(𝜔𝑡)d𝑡 * a Docutils doctree node with fontattributes similar to what you would get from rst *x* = 2π ∫ sin(*ωt*)d *t* with `graceful degradation` for features that cannot be supported this way. > All in all i would show the latex output, and if someone is in need for eqn > he should stand up and say so. I prefer a customer giving targets ... So do I. Will you implement this or shall I try it... Günter 
From: Guenter Milde <milde@us...>  20101106 10:43:31

On 20101102, Guenter Milde wrote: > On 20101101, engelbert gruber wrote: >> All in all i would show the latex output > ... Done. As a stopgap measure, the odtwriter shows the latex source, too. Günter 
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