dnd3e-devel — Discussion of DND3E design and developement.

[dnd3e-devel] Project Status Update

[Eric L. <ele...@le...>]

Work is currently underway on the 0.1.x release series of DND3E. The new =
releases will depend on the Open Gaming System (OGS) which is another =
project here at SourceForge and can be downloaded from =
http://ogs.sourceforge.net/.=20

The Open Gaming System is designed to be the foundation for new software =
development kits aimed at a particular campaign setting such as Dungeons =
& Dragons, Star Wars, Wheel of Time, or any other SRD-compatible game =
(e.g. d20 System).=20

DND3E is one such kit. It now contains only the elements from the SRD =
(such as skills, items, creatures, and spells) for fantasy (i.e. =
Dungeons & Dragons) campaign settings. Since these types of games have =
many, many elements, the new releases of DND3E are much bigger than the =
old 0.0.x series.=20

In addition to OGS, you will need new versions of pkg-config and glib. =
GLib 2.0.0 has at last been released. Go grab a copy from =
ftp://ftp.gtk.org/pub/gtk/v2.0/. Pre-release candidates for dnd3e-0.1.0 =
are available from ftp://ftp.lemings.com/dnd3e/. You'll need about 300MB =
of free disk space to build it so check those filesystems first!

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Why not C++?

[<go...@ud...>]

Eric Lemings writes:
> Anything in particular about the design?

Not at all.  (At least not yet.)  I was in the exploration mode,
trying to figure out how things are done and why.  With your comment
as background, I'll (try to find time to) continue with a closer look
at what your library supply.

Thanks for the explanation.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Why not C++?

[Eric L. <ele...@us...>]

G=F6ran Uddeborg wrote:

> I had been thinking a bit on how to model D&D 3e elements myself when
> I found out about this already made library.  My thought had gone
> along the lines of OO and subclassing.  Much of the game seems to lend
> itself quite readily to that structure.  Creatures can be divided into
> monsters and characters.  Characters into different classes, and,
> orthogonally, into different races.  Virtual methods can be used for
> the computation of things like base attack bonus, methods which would
> have different implementations in different classes.  And so on.
>
> So I was quite curious to compare my early ideas to what was done int
> the dnd3e library.  It appears to have started along similar ideas of
> general attributes and more specific.  But it done "by hand" in C,
> with the base class explicitly a member of the subclass.  Why was it
> choosen to do it this way?  Why not use a real OO language, and get
> language support for this?

Guess I'll start from the top.  ;)  When I started DND3E, I wanted to use
an object-oriented design but I did not want to limit the implementation
to object-oriented languages.  (I don't think one should preculde the
other.  Besides, I like to program in C just as much as C++.)

So why use an object-oriented design and implement it in a procedural
language?  C is the "common denominator" in my view.  It is much easier t=
o
port to other platforms and write language bindings for other languages
when the native API is written in C.  If you look at most popular C++
APIs, you find that they are wrappers around an underlying, native C API.
A native C++ API is just not as portable or flexible.  Besides, most C++
compilers still have not caught up with the C++ standard.

Having said all that, I've decided to develop a C API for DSF (d20 System
Foundation) in parallel with a C++ API for DSFC (d20 System Foundation
Classes).  I first tried doing both in one package but ran into too many
problems.  So now I've separated them into the DSF and DSFC packages.
(For those interested in browsing through DSF, I can send a URL but I
won't post it yet for all to see.)

> I would be happy to read about some of the ideas behind the design.

In a nutshell, here's the current design that I'm working on.  At the
top-level, there are two packages: DSF and DND3E.  DSF provides the API
for the d20 System rules (without the elements specific to a particular
game or campaign setting).  DND3E will be built on top of DSF and will
contain all elements specific to the D&D game.

Anything in particular about the design?

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Why not C++?

[<go...@ud...>]

I had been thinking a bit on how to model D&D 3e elements myself when
I found out about this already made library.  My thought had gone
along the lines of OO and subclassing.  Much of the game seems to lend
itself quite readily to that structure.  Creatures can be divided into
monsters and characters.  Characters into different classes, and,
orthogonally, into different races.  Virtual methods can be used for
the computation of things like base attack bonus, methods which would
have different implementations in different classes.  And so on.

So I was quite curious to compare my early ideas to what was done int
the dnd3e library.  It appears to have started along similar ideas of
general attributes and more specific.  But it done "by hand" in C,
with the base class explicitly a member of the subclass.  Why was it
choosen to do it this way?  Why not use a real OO language, and get
language support for this?

I would be happy to read about some of the ideas behind the design.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Characters, Creatures, and Races

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Michael Arick wrote:
> 
> Hi Eric:
> 
> Yes, this seems reasonable, but what about templates
> such as Vampires, where they have a class (and class
> levels) and of course a race (elven Vampires can see
> in the dark and can't be put to sleep, for example),
> but also some concept of special abilities due to
> their template creature type.

Good question.  I haven't given much thought to template creatures but
it doesn't take much thought to know that these don't fit "neatly" into
any design -- even a good one.

Putting on my "pure" O-O design cap, one approach that I can think of is
to use...what else...a template class to represent a template creature. 
To transform a creature into a template creature, you would supply the
creature instance to the template creature class.  The template creature
class takes the normal creature instance and, if the two are
"compatible", then it creates a new instance of the templatized creature
class, adding its own specific capabilities and limitations. 
Thereafter, you'd use the templatized creature instance intead of normal
creature instance.

> Just to bring this into further focus, consider an
> example NPC/monster:
> 
> Normong, a 3rd level elven vampire wizard - considered
> by the Monster manual to have (totally from memory
> here) 7 HD.

Example pseudo-code:

	Elf Normong;
	Wizard w (3);
	Normong.AddClass (w);

	Vampire NormonTheBloodSucker (Normong);
	Normong.Destroy ();

	Lich NormongTheMeanYouKnowWhat (NormongTheBlookSucker);
        catch (IncompatibleTemplateCreature) {
	  // Whoops!  He's already undead!
	}

How's that look?

> Also, consider the dire rat vs. the dire bear vs. a
> brown bear.  Clearly there is some overlap in
> characteristics there.  Maybe it's not important to
> all characters, but it could be crucial for a Ranger's
> tracking skill, for example.

Well, I don't have the MM so I'm not exactly sure what constitutes a
"dire" creature or what the difference is between its normal
counterpart.  Anybody else got an answer for this?

Eric.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Characters, Creatures, and Races

[Michael A. <mic...@ya...>]

Hi Eric:

Yes, this seems reasonable, but what about templates
such as Vampires, where they have a class (and class
levels) and of course a race (elven Vampires can see
in the dark and can't be put to sleep, for example),
but also some concept of special abilities due to
their template creature type.

Just to bring this into further focus, consider an
example NPC/monster:

Normong, a 3rd level elven vampire wizard - considered
by the Monster manual to have (totally from memory
here) 7 HD.

Also, consider the dire rat vs. the dire bear vs. a
brown bear.  Clearly there is some overlap in
characteristics there.  Maybe it's not important to
all characters, but it could be crucial for a Ranger's
tracking skill, for example.

--- Eric Lemings <eri...@lm...> wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> It's been a while since this list has seen any
> activity and I for one
> would like to see more discussion.  So what this
> list really needs a
> good topic for a thread and boy do I have a good
> one.  I've been
> pondering the following questions over and over for
> months now.  Each
> time I think about it, I form a different (and
> sometimes better)
> conclusion.  (In fact, I did while writing this
> message.)
> 
> My question is basically this: what is a "character"
> and what is a
> "creature" in 3rd Ed. D&D?  Or more specifically,
> what does the
> object-oriented design of a "character" class and a
> "creature" class
> look like?  And how does the concept of "race" fit
> into this design?
> 
> So let's start with statements of fact.  The Monster
> Manual (MM) defines
> dozens of creatures that can be used in the game
> including the
> "creatures" that are used as the standard "races"
> available for
> "characters" (except for humans I think).  The term
> "race" is most often
> used in this context.  The MM also classifies each
> type of creature into
> a category, group, class or whatever you want to
> call it.  The humanoid
> category is most often used for characters.  In
> addition to this, the
> Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) and the MM define rules
> that allow other
> creatures to also be used as characters.  All
> creatures can advance in
> one of two ways: by hit dice or by class (character
> class that is). 
> Only creatures that can advance by class can be used
> as characters.
> 
> Here are the conclusions I've come to so far.  The
> method of advancement
> is really the only technical aspect that
> distinguishes a "creature" from
> a "character".  (There are other aspects that are
> mostly descriptive:
> frequency, climate/terrain, appearance, personality,
> background, etc.) 
> Therefore, the two concepts have a lot in common. 
> What is the name of
> the abstract O-O class that defines this
> commonality?  I'll call it a
> "being".  Where does "race" fit it?  A "race" is not
> an O-O class but
> simply an interface that adds a few more operations
> that facillitate the
> use of a creature in the role of a character.  These
> operations mainly
> include physical characteristics such as height,
> weight, and age as well
> as other details such as favored class.  So any
> "being" that can be used
> as (but not limited to) characters is derived from
> the Character class. 
> Other beings that advance by hit dice and are used
> primarily as
> advesaries are derived from the Creature class.  (A
> UML diagram is
> attached that shows these relationships.)
> 
> Does this sound like the right approach?  Are there
> alternatives?  Are
> there better alternatives?
> 
> By the way, it took me quite a while to write up
> this message and there
> are now quite a few people subscribed to this list. 
> If you have any
> thoughts, comments, suggestions, questions, or just
> want to flame every
> conclusion I've drawn (geez...I hope not), please
> take a moment or two
> and followup with a post.  I'd like to see everybody
> chime in.  ;)
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric.
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/png name=class-diagram.png



=====
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[dnd3e-devel] Characters, Creatures, and Races

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello all,

It's been a while since this list has seen any activity and I for one
would like to see more discussion.  So what this list really needs a
good topic for a thread and boy do I have a good one.  I've been
pondering the following questions over and over for months now.  Each
time I think about it, I form a different (and sometimes better)
conclusion.  (In fact, I did while writing this message.)

My question is basically this: what is a "character" and what is a
"creature" in 3rd Ed. D&D?  Or more specifically, what does the
object-oriented design of a "character" class and a "creature" class
look like?  And how does the concept of "race" fit into this design?

So let's start with statements of fact.  The Monster Manual (MM) defines
dozens of creatures that can be used in the game including the
"creatures" that are used as the standard "races" available for
"characters" (except for humans I think).  The term "race" is most often
used in this context.  The MM also classifies each type of creature into
a category, group, class or whatever you want to call it.  The humanoid
category is most often used for characters.  In addition to this, the
Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) and the MM define rules that allow other
creatures to also be used as characters.  All creatures can advance in
one of two ways: by hit dice or by class (character class that is). 
Only creatures that can advance by class can be used as characters.

Here are the conclusions I've come to so far.  The method of advancement
is really the only technical aspect that distinguishes a "creature" from
a "character".  (There are other aspects that are mostly descriptive:
frequency, climate/terrain, appearance, personality, background, etc.) 
Therefore, the two concepts have a lot in common.  What is the name of
the abstract O-O class that defines this commonality?  I'll call it a
"being".  Where does "race" fit it?  A "race" is not an O-O class but
simply an interface that adds a few more operations that facillitate the
use of a creature in the role of a character.  These operations mainly
include physical characteristics such as height, weight, and age as well
as other details such as favored class.  So any "being" that can be used
as (but not limited to) characters is derived from the Character class. 
Other beings that advance by hit dice and are used primarily as
advesaries are derived from the Creature class.  (A UML diagram is
attached that shows these relationships.)

Does this sound like the right approach?  Are there alternatives?  Are
there better alternatives?

By the way, it took me quite a while to write up this message and there
are now quite a few people subscribed to this list.  If you have any
thoughts, comments, suggestions, questions, or just want to flame every
conclusion I've drawn (geez...I hope not), please take a moment or two
and followup with a post.  I'd like to see everybody chime in.  ;)

Thanks,
Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] dnd3e-0.1.0

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello all,

In dnd3e-0.1.0, I'm planning to reorganize the file structure to
accommodate all future development.  After many hours of thought, I've
come up with the following organization.  Each name corresponds to a
directory in the distribution as well as the path of installed header
files.  In the distribution, each directory will contain the header
files, source files, and test drivers.  (Currently, this are split into
three separate directories which is sometimes a pain.)

dnd3e/basics
dnd3e/characters
dnd3e/characters/classes
dnd3e/characters/feats
dnd3e/characters/features
dnd3e/characters/skills
dnd3e/creatures
dnd3e/creatures/abominations
dnd3e/creatures/aberrations
dnd3e/creatures/animals
dnd3e/creatures/beasts
dnd3e/creatures/constructs
dnd3e/creatures/dragons
dnd3e/creatures/elementals
dnd3e/creatures/feys
dnd3e/creatures/giants
dnd3e/creatures/humanoids
dnd3e/creatures/magical_beasts
dnd3e/creatures/oozes
dnd3e/creatures/outsiders
dnd3e/creatures/plants
dnd3e/creatures/shapechangers
dnd3e/creatures/vermin
dnd3e/creatures/undead
dnd3e/items
dnd3e/items/armors
dnd3e/items/artifacts
dnd3e/items/potions
dnd3e/items/rings
dnd3e/items/rods
dnd3e/items/shields
dnd3e/items/staffs
dnd3e/items/weapons
dnd3e/items/wonders
dnd3e/spells
dnd3e/spells/abjuration
dnd3e/spells/conjuration
dnd3e/spells/divination
dnd3e/spells/enchantment
dnd3e/spells/evocation
dnd3e/spells/illusion
dnd3e/spells/necromancy
dnd3e/spells/transmutation
dnd3e/spells/universal
dnd3e/support

Notes

The name 'abominations' is used instead of 'monstrous humanoids'
since its shorter (and a little more eloquent).

The standard races are part of the creatures/humanoids package.

Eric.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Opinions Please

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Saphlyx wrote:
> 
> Hey.
> 
> I would suggest option 1 because under the new rules, all abilities are
> treated the same, with same modifiers, etc.  What is different is what
> things use each ability.

Not entirely true.  For the most part, all abilities are the same but
there are some differences.  Strength for example still has a special
table affects your carrying capacity.  Intelligence has a special table
that gives bonus spells for spellcasters.  But those are about the only
two differences I can think of off hand.

> Having said that, does it make sense that an ability should be implemented
> as a class?  Given that all characters have the same types of abilities,
> and all abilities of the same value have the same modifiers, what if an
> ability was simply an integer, with its modifiers computed from a lookup table?

I guess the best answer I can think of for that question is to give an
example.  Character has a current Strength score of 20 with magic
bonuses.  The character walks into an anti-magic field.  What is the
easiest way to determine what the characters Strength score is now? 
Keep track of modifiers TO the ability score.

That's one example.  There are others.  For instance, wearing heavy
armor imposes a maximum Dexterity score.  What's the easiest way to
handle that?  Keep track of maximum Dexterity scores.

And as always a class helps keep the implementation behind closed doors,
forcing programmers to use the API to access and modify the score and
its derived attributes.

Eric.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] Opinions Please

[Saphlyx <sa...@po...>]

Hey.

I would suggest option 1 because under the new rules, all abilities are 
treated the same, with same modifiers, etc.  What is different is what 
things use each ability.

Having said that, does it make sense that an ability should be implemented 
as a class?  Given that all characters have the same types of abilities, 
and all abilities of the same value have the same modifiers, what if an 
ability was simply an integer, with its modifiers computed from a lookup table?

Steve

[dnd3e-devel] Opinions Please

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Which design is "better"?

1. Ability is an instantiable class.  It has an attribute called Type
which can have only the values Strength, Dexterity, Constitution,
Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.

2. Ability is an abstract class.  The Strength, Dexterity, Constitution,
Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma classes are the only classes derived
from Ability.

Consequences:

a. Design 1 has fewer classes.
b. Design 2 makes the classes easier to use.

Just need a little input.

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Re: dnd3e

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Nicholas Ingolia wrote:
> 
> One feature I don't see in the existing framework, though such may be
> a consequence of not looking in the right place, is an ability to
> write out a text representation of an object and to create objects by
> reading in text representations.  Such an ability could be used to
> write objects to files, network streams, &c. and read them back in.

I was just looking at the Java Object class and thinking about this. 
Perhaps the dnd3e_object class should have virtual functions that return
textual and binary representations of the object.  Could also add a
virtual function that creates an object from binary data.  Not sure
about adding a virtual function to create an object from text though. 
Might as well add a virtual compare function while I'm at it.

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Re: dnd3e

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

FYI

Eric Lemings wrote:
> 
> Hello Nicolas,
> 
> Sorry it took so long to reply: I have been gone for the holiday and
> other business.
> 
> Nicholas Ingolia wrote:
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > Hello...
> >
> > I am interested in working on the dnd3e SDK.  I've been looking over
> > it this weekend and would be interested in helping with development.
> > I have quite a bit of experience with C programming, but not very much
> > with the glib framework, though I expect I shall be able to get up to
> > speed on it pretty quickly.
> 
> Anybody with a fair amount of C programming experience will find it
> relatively easy to use.  I hadn't used it before I started working on
> this project.
> 
> > I was mostly wondering if the project were at a stage where additional
> > developers would be useful and, if so, what particular parts of the
> > project I might be useful in.
> 
> Definately!  One or two additional developers would be extremely helpful
> thought not many more than that at this stage.  Although it's by no
> means complete or stable, I have a relatively complete vision of the
> entire framework.  (At this point, it mostly a matter of waiting until
> GLib 2.0 is finally released.)  One or two developers could contribute
> immensely by helping to test the framework, providing some feedback on
> the design of the API, helping with API documentation, and of course
> fixing bugs whenever found.
> 
> Up to this point, I've had to do all the work (not that I mind but it's
> just really slow progress).
> 
> > One feature I don't see in the existing framework, though such may be
> > a consequence of not looking in the right place, is an ability to
> > write out a text representation of an object and to create objects by
> > reading in text representations.  Such an ability could be used to
> > write objects to files, network streams, &c. and read them back in.
> 
> It is there...or was.  If you look in the CVS history, you'll find some
> interfaces and implementations (e.g., the dnd3e_ability and dnd3e_dice
> classes) which converts objects to and from text or binary data.  I have
> removed these interfaces (or left them unimplemented) in the latest
> version so I can focus on the internal relationships in the framework
> which are currently a higher priority.
> 
> Look for function prototypes/definitions that look like this:
> 
> extern dnd3e_gizmo
> dnd3e_gizmo_create_from_text      (dnd3e_const_text text,
>                                    dnd3e_const_text* end);
> extern dnd3e_text
> dnd3e_gizmo_get_text              (dnd3e_const_gizmo gizmo);
> 
> extern dnd3e_gizmo
> dnd3e_gizmo_create_from_data      (dnd3e_const_data data);
> extern dnd3e_data
> dnd3e_gizmo_get_data              (dnd3e_const_gizmo gizmo,
>                                    dnd3e_data_size* data_size);
> 
> For creating an object from text, the object text may or may not be null
> terminated; it may be embedded in text containing multiple objects.
> That's what the `end' parameter is for.  For converting an object to
> text, the text is always null terminated.  For data, the size of the
> data is always the first piece of data within the data object.  For this
> reason, the data_size parameter in "get data" functions is optional (may
> be NULL).
> 
> Hope this helps and look forward to getting some help with this
> project!  ;)
> 
> Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] dnd3e-0.0.7

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello gamers,

I'm still hard at work on it but you can browse through the next version
of DND3E at http://www.lemings.com/dnd3e/.  I've added a lot of stuff
and it's getting too big for one person to handle.  So if you find
anything interesting you'd care to work on, by all means...PLEASE HELP! 
Or, if you're not familliar with GLib programming, I'd be glad to help.

Eric.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] This is definastely a cool project.

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Chris Moyer wrote:
> 
> I grabbed the source from cvs, and I'm supposed to have glib 2.0?  I can't
> find that anywhere... all I find on cvs.gnome.org is 1.3.1 development
> versions of glib.  The dnd3e site mentions that it is available somewhere
> on the sourceforge site, can someone direct me too it?

Just in case the version numbers are confusing anybody else, 1.3.1 is
the version number of the development (beta) release of GLib 2.0.  So if
you see 1.3.1, think 2.0.  ;)

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] This is definastely a cool project.

[Chris M. <cm...@ch...>]

Hello all,

I just joined this mailing list after stumbling across your site.  I am
very excited about this project!

I grabbed the source from cvs, and I'm supposed to have glib 2.0?  I can't
find that anywhere... all I find on cvs.gnome.org is 1.3.1 development
versions of glib.  The dnd3e site mentions that it is available somewhere
on the sourceforge site, can someone direct me too it?

Thanks alot, I'm looking forwarding to using and contribution to this effort!

-Chris Moyer

[dnd3e-devel] User Accounts For Developers

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

I'm offering a user account on the computer that I use to develop DND3E
to all interested developers.  It has a 512k connection and is available
24/7.  The account is to be used ONLY for development of the SDK and
related software.

If interested, send me a request.

Thanks,
Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Dice: Homogeneous or Heterogenous?

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

G'day,

Today's topic of discussion:

Should the dice class be homogenous (only composed of one die type) or
heterogenous (can be composed of different die types)?  Homogenous is
how it is currently implemented but there may be situations which
require heterogenous dice rolls.  Can anyone think of a reason why dice
should be heterogenous?

Thanks,
Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Character Editor Released

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Software and info available from the Development site
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/dnd3e/).

Comments, suggestions welcome.

Regards,
Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] XML?

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello all,

Has anyone seen or heard of any XML projects for 3rd Ed. D&D?

Thanks,
Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Project Status

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello all,

In case you're wondering about the status of the DND3E project,
development was going too fast (if you can believe that).  The API
requires a feature of GLib (i.e., object signals) that is planned for
the 2.0 release but hasn't been implemented yet.  In the meantime, I've
been poring over the official rules now that they are in printed form.

So as soon as GLib catches up (in a month or so), development will
resume in earnest.  Hey, that's open source for ya!

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] Player's Handbook

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Hello all,

Just wanted to find out how many people on the list, for purposes of
discussion and reference, have or will soon have a copy of the 3rd
Edition Player's Handbook.

Thanks,
Eric.

Re: [dnd3e-devel] C++ port

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

Ludovic LIEVRE wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I don't know if the creator of DnD3E SDK is on the list, but what do you
> think of a C++ port of this SDK ?

That would be me.

I think a C++ port would be great.  While there are still a lot of C
developers out there, I know there are also a lot of C++ developers
too.  One reason I chose to do the initial development in C is that it
would allow both C and C++ to be used.  (Going from C to C++ is a lot
easier than the other way around.)

Eric.

[dnd3e-devel] C++ port

[Ludovic L. <lud...@ch...>]

Hi all,

I don't know if the creator of DnD3E SDK is on the list, but what do you
think of a C++ port of this SDK ?

--
Ludovic LIEVRE
Chaman Productions
mailto:lu...@ch...

"Give me a museum and I'll fill it."
Pablo Picasso (1881-1973)

[dnd3e-devel] Draft of API Reference Manual Online

[Eric L. <eri...@lm...>]

FYI,

http://www.dnd3e.org/documentation/api/

dnd3e-0.0.4 to be released at end of week.

Eric.