dmrpg-devel — dmrpg developers

[Dmrpg-devel] FASD project: Online survey launched

[<ben...@id...>]

Dear Open Source developer

I am doing a research project on "Fun and Software Development" in which I kindly invite you to participate.
You will find the online survey under http://fasd.ethz.ch/qsf/. The questionnaire consists of 53 questions and you will need about 15 minutes to complete it.

With the FASD project (Fun and Software Development) we want to define the motivational significance of fun when software developers decide to engage in Open Source projects. What is special about our research project is that a similar survey is planned with software developers in commercial firms. This procedure allows the immediate comparison between the involved individuals and the conditions of production of these two development models. Thus we hope to obtain substantial new insights to the phenomenon of Open Source Development.


With many thanks for your participation,
Benno Luthiger


PS:
The results of the survey will be published under http://www.isu.unizh.ch/fuehrung/blprojects/FASD/.
We have set up the mailing list fa...@we... for this study. Please see http://fasd.ethz.ch/qsf/mailinglist_en.html for registration to this mailing list.

_______________________________________________________________________

Benno Luthiger
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich
8092 Zurich

Mail: benno.luthiger(at)id.ethz.ch
_______________________________________________________________________

[Dmrpg-devel] month summary or lets get working:)

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

Hey,
I sort I would sum up the things that need to be done and what we achvied
so far.

kengur and vulture are working on making the backend of the pluggable gui
interface in python any comments about how it is advancing?

delta is working on making nebula a child window in wx to add to the gui
module.

nightspy do you with to do the nwn parser?it's very well documented format
and I think it shouldn't be too hard, just reading the graphic files and
models and then dumping them into nebula it would provide us with a lot
more art. tyrol do you want to join up with nightspy?

bsr can you check how to make networking work with nebula?
things like nEnet?(you can check on nebuladevice's wiki or on the channel)

me would work on the layout module with vulture.

anyhow our first milestone is having a working GUI core with nebula and
layout(the graphic interface with wx) modules.

ideas for the second milestone are welcomed.

please replay to this e-mail about if you can do what I suggested
and if you do about how much time you think it would take you.
don't be shy to ask questions if you need help.

the idea is to reach first milestore by the end of this month
I think we can do it!

any other news I'm not aware of?:)


Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel

[Dmrpg-devel] http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~elylevy/dmrpg

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

comments?

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel

[Dmrpg-devel] http://noegnud.sourceforge.net

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

we should check how they do ascii/2d/3d togetehr

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel

[Dmrpg-devel] Graphics delivery from server to client side

[doron m. <do...@ho...>]

let me first introduce myself my name is Doron , or Nightspy on ircnet/efnet 
, i'm a friend of nakee and we often talked about

the conversion of moo into a 3d env. i'm interested in dealing with the 3d 
desgin and graphics side of the rpg project atm
if i could contribute in other ways i will do my best :)

-----------------------------------------------------------


Graphics delivery from server to client side
To minimize bandwidth and to make things more flexible and programable here 
is my view of how it should be done

the idea of useing simple 3d poly shapes and compressed image files to 
create small filesize is well known and used
to the extreme on the internet nowdays , however this comes on the expense 
of quality and can only be done a little if you still

wish to preserve a pleasing gaming exprience. even so, most objects avatars 
or weapons etc. when done in 3d  take alot of

disk space and are not very suitable for an rpg environment where players 
are invited to create their own scene that may include

original objects and avatars , even when useing broadband internet 
connections there is a limit to the number of components

you're able to pass to players (via downloading patches or model packs) this 
is not a convnient methood of delivery for new

content and not at all what i have in mind for this project.

players should be able to walk into a new scene and wait a few seconds a 
time seeing that new objects are being added into

the game env. in realtime this should not slow down the server by much if 
the information being passed but is a simple

collection of instructions telling the client how to generate new objects 
based of existing information

my idea is the implimination of a graphics description language and 
independent parsing on the client side:
scene objects are defined useing a text descriprion language which can be 
easily human readable but not overly simplified
as not to not exculde other types of content but make it optional to use 
only when cannot be done otherwise (data files can be

attached to the text form in this case).

a similar graphics description language to that of Povray raytracer can be 
used for a quick scene generation while the rendering
itself would be done by the client useing opengl insted , this gives the 
ability to declare new objects from existing primitives (

polyhedron , cube , plane , sphere , cylinder, cone , etc.) or make changes 
in objects and manipulating their properties by

includeing some code , such as type of of object , scale , location , size 
and appearance , special objects can be used to

create things as well , such as lofting (which uses 2d pathes extruded to 3d 
on another path) , boolean objects (by intersecting

3d objects) , fractal objects (such as lsystems used with cylinders insted 
of lines in 3d)  also the use of textures and materials

can be declared the same way useing filters like noise plasma and other 
things and colors can be assigned to vertexes and

objects and the various optical properties such as opacity specular 
reflection bumpmapping and whatever opengl
can do in realtime useing geforce cards today this may include the use of 
vertex and pixel shaders as well.

also in order to make it simple for the user to create his own objects there 
will be a need for a simple editor and toolswhich will

automate the writing of script by more standard modeling technique , as in 
drag and drop objects into place without the need to

decalre their location via x,y,z text format or the generation of lsystems 
and other procedural objects , many tools exist
for the povray script nowdays , we might borrow opensource code and convert 
them into our own use

here is an example of some povray script to make it more understandable for 
more info http://www.povray.org/
there are many amazing pictures of render results by the povray engine on 
the site for illustration , you need to remember
we won't do raytracing however but realtime (but technicly it would be 
possible if you want :)

//#include "flareblocker.inc"


light_source {
	<-500,-50,-500>
	rgb <.1,.2,.5>
}
camera {
	location camera_location
	angle camera_angle
	look_at camera_look_at
}



sky_sphere {
	pigment {
		crackle form <1,0,0>
		color_map {
			[0 rgb 5]
			[.1 rgb 0]
		}
		scale .03
	}
}



/*
#declare Gloed=
cylinder {
	-y,y,1
	pigment {rgbt 1}
	interior {
		media {
			emission 3
			method 3
			samples 1,10
			intervals 1

			density {
				spherical
				color_map {
					[0 rgb 0]
					[1 rgb 1]
				}
				poly_wave 5
				scale 2
				//scale <1,2,1>
			}
			density {
				cylindrical
				//spherical
				color_map {
					[0 rgb 0]
					[.75 rgb <.1,.01,.02>]
					[.85 rgb <1,.1,.2>]
					[1 rgb <1,.85,.9>]
				}
			}

	scale <.5,.5,.5>
	rotate -x*90
	scale <1.5,1.5,.5>
	scale 2


		}
	}
	hollow
	no_shadow
	scale <.5,.25,.5>
	rotate -x*90
	scale <1.5,1.5,1>
}




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[Dmrpg-devel] network layer

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

suggestion for network layer:

Like most applications I think we should use

- TCP/IP for things which need security password authetication and
sensative data, it should be encrypted using ssl like layer.
through this port we can allow scriptable interface and diffrent levels of
access.

-UDP/IP for bw related things, as in 3d/2d/sound very light security
maybe very very simple key encryption while the key is being synced in tcp
every few minutes.

that would enable us to create layers for graphic and sound and would
even allow a person participate with no graphic engine at all.

I guess we can change some existing protocol for the graphic
but I guess the tcp one we'll need to do ourselves.

The servers should work in the following hierchy as being done in
actionRPG:

zone server -> area server -> world server.

zone server - would have specific zone

region server - would include few zones that can affect each other

world server - would have few area which affect each other
level or are affected by the same global level.

clients should connect to zone server only.

the diffrent is that we'll allow world servers to talk with each other
sync object and to move charecters in a very controled way.

I guess when we have actionRPG source code we can see how much of it we
can use.

comments?:)

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel

[Dmrpg-devel] http://ne-odc.sourceforge.net/

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

it sounds a lot like what we need,
maybe we should try to adapt it instead of redoing everything?

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel

Re: [Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Jouni M. <mo...@pr...>]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ely Levy wrote:

> > > >
> > > > there isn't much on framework yet and that is good, so now we can talk
> > > > about making certain kind of direction and targets what we are going to
> > > > achieve. This might take few weeks or even months, but that doesn't mean
> > >
> > > I think we should make it playble as fast as we can,
> > > even if we are not sure on design that would make more people intrested.
> >
> > 	I'm not interested making things 1000 times all over again just
> > cause something had to achieve really fast.
> 
> no but yoy can design EVERTHING and then start working or you can design
> core then starting working design next level and developing it and so on .
> I find the designing everything approch a waste of time cause the more you
> advance new things pop up.
> that what I ment by fast.

	First I want to design framework and its not enough to say just 
some rpg stuff. And after having framework there can be coding and making 
more specific specifications. Ofcourse specifications change in time when 
things are made, as something new or better pops up. But framework or the 
big picture with little detail wouldn't change after that. 


> > > > that we shouldn't code anything or do some basic work for it. Maybe
> > > > defining what kind of libraries (if not own made) we are going to use and
> > > > what platforms we are mostly trying to target our project. Lately I've
> > > SDL/crystal space?
> > > using those and you solved most problems in moving your code between
> > > platfroms, as much as I dislike it I guess we should support windows as
> > > well..
> >
> > 	Like I said, front end after all isn't the issue. If someone wants
> > to start this doing with crystal space and using sdl thats fine for me,
> > but I'm not going to touch those by myself. So I'm going to make my own
> > stuff or seek better choises. Only matters that I get the data which every
> > frontend uses and I can do my own frontend for that data.
> 
> crystal space is not only frontend it's also protocol the program need to
> speak, but ofcourse one can make whatever frontend he wants, that's part
> of the point of using opensource;)

	But like I said, I don't care about crystal space, if someone 
wants to use it, its just fine for me. I'm not going to touch it even with 
looooong stick :D. 

> > > > we should know about when starting to do this. (try to keep up with me,
> > > > usually I'm writing with mind-flow, so it might feel little bit confusing
> > > > to read my texts.)
> > > >
> > > > Any kind of documentation about things is good. Well I think everyone
> > > > knows that :).
> > >
> > > should we take GNU's coding guide?
> >
> > 	Url to that? I want to see GNU's coding guide (ok, I feel little
> > bit lazy to do a google now, but maybe someone else wants link right away
> > too).
> sorry too used to GNU/linux geeks;)
> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards.html

ok. that standard looks like what I'm doing right now. (ofcourse I just 
reading first sections of it ;))

> > > > So the network idea what I had to introduce here is simple. There is
> > > > interface for common server / client combination. Everything includes its
> > > > own server and client .. lets see this as an component which is included
> > > > in every frontend and programs we are going to do. Through that
> > > > information is transfered to different clients who needs it and there will
> > > > be interface for modules to register into this components offered network.
> > >
> > > Well one of the biggest challenges is making a dynamic enviourment
> > > so diffrent server could have diffrent sort of graphic or music and the
> > > client won't need to spend hours on downloading it everytime it connects a
> > > new server, that might help.
> >
> > 	Maybe first there should be downloading section of content what is
> > needed by that section of game and after that its only updating. If client
> > can't write that information to anywhere then it just has to get necessary
> > content from server.
> 
> Yea but I guess that a future problem we don't need to deal with now:)

	However, we should be thinking in long terms and seeing what is 
coming, so we won't close any upcoming possibilities cause of poor design. 


> > > Can you give an example in which it solve a problem better than classic
> > > approch would?
> >
> > 	What is this classic approach? Server-farm and alot of clients? I
> > simply just turn clients as little servers too, which can act like proxys
> > to other players if they are on same area for example.
> 
> so you mean doing the server and client in 2 independed modules instead of
> 2 programs? I guess some already do that, like blizzard.
> though they didn't take it as far as being proxies that could be very nice
> feature.

	Not even modules, one big thing. FORGET server and client, think 
as those as one, giving just highway into two directions for users to use. 

> > > > If someone knows more coders to attend into this kind of project we should
> > > > get those. Even if they are not professionals and they know what they are
> > > > doing with coding, they could do routines, modules etc.
> > >
> > > Btw when I talked about module API I didn't mean loadble module API,
> > > I ment more if you want to have a database module or certain feature added
> > > you need to have API inside the code, so for example the calling for
> > > database would stay the same but the module would implement the functions
> > > needed.
> >
> > 	Ehm. how does this go with the thing I said about getting more
> > coders and what could be their tasks?-D
> it should be a bit down;)

	Excuse me?-). I didn't still understand how this thing involves in 
getting more coders and what they could do. 

> > > > About module interface making this whole thing as in scalable and generic,
> > > > so experts on c/c++/java/+other have to think about multiplatform and
> > > > issues what there can be on loading modules. About this I have only
> > >
> > > I don't think we should use more than one langauge in the meanwhile:)
> > > and I think c is good enough:)
> >
> > 	I think there should be interface like network protocol which
> > connects every other platform and basic design for handling that. Through
> > that protocol there can be assigned many things and with that we can offer
> > support for different languages. Coder just have to know little bit
> > sockets or how to use that kind of protocols and start using it to be
> > compatible with our other "servers" or programs.
> 
> protocol?you mean API?or like the parts of the modules talking with each
> other like in CORBA?doesn't it had overhead and slow things down?
> I heard some platforms doesn't handle pipes very well;)

	Oh, I meant with procotol the ways two things communicate, not 
API's. And forget corba, think as corbas server is on anything that uses 
communication protocol to communicate with other programs. (well now this 
is getting really confusing). And what are you talking about pipes? Forget 
those. 

> > 	Haven't heard anyone else who reads this mailing list? I would
> > like to hear other opinnions aswell their introduction. Knowing team makes
> > it easier to understand what kind of resources we have.
> >
> Yea nightspy kidart I know you guys still not sure about what to do and if
> to do it but the only way to know is to try participating:)
> 
> as for vulture I think he is in army service till end of this week I guss
> we'll hear from him then:)

	uhm. ok. And for one thing I want this thingie to be working 
perfectly under windows, its an extra feature if it work on linux or other 
system (which in this design shouldn't be hard to achieve). 

	Cheers, mov. 

Re: [Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Jouni Miikki wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ely Levy wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Jouni Miikki wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree on next things that we should make it most abstract, well-designed
> > > data-stuctures so it can be stored in different formats on different
> > > places (files, db3, sql etc). If we do this, we can possibly get different
> > > kind of frontends for this whole thingie(tm) we are starting to make. Lets
> >
> > The question is if to sperate the modules/code from the database,
> > if you know eggdrop and lambdamoo that would be the diffrance I mean.
>
> 	Uhm, could you specify that more carefully? I didn't quite catch
> the idea, cause I'm not familiar on eggdrop and lambdamoo. Should
> modules/code never be in database?

Well eggdrop uses tcl script which it loads and can change global
variables or add a specific command lambdamoo give you full access to the
database from adding new objects changing existing objects editing/adding
properties and so on,
http://emeraldmoo.sourceforge.net/ press on programming guide.:)

> > >
> > > there isn't much on framework yet and that is good, so now we can talk
> > > about making certain kind of direction and targets what we are going to
> > > achieve. This might take few weeks or even months, but that doesn't mean
> >
> > I think we should make it playble as fast as we can,
> > even if we are not sure on design that would make more people intrested.
>
> 	I'm not interested making things 1000 times all over again just
> cause something had to achieve really fast.

no but yoy can design EVERTHING and then start working or you can design
core then starting working design next level and developing it and so on .
I find the designing everything approch a waste of time cause the more you
advance new things pop up.
that what I ment by fast.

> > > that we shouldn't code anything or do some basic work for it. Maybe
> > > defining what kind of libraries (if not own made) we are going to use and
> > > what platforms we are mostly trying to target our project. Lately I've
> > SDL/crystal space?
> > using those and you solved most problems in moving your code between
> > platfroms, as much as I dislike it I guess we should support windows as
> > well..
>
> 	Like I said, front end after all isn't the issue. If someone wants
> to start this doing with crystal space and using sdl thats fine for me,
> but I'm not going to touch those by myself. So I'm going to make my own
> stuff or seek better choises. Only matters that I get the data which every
> frontend uses and I can do my own frontend for that data.

crystal space is not only frontend it's also protocol the program need to
speak, but ofcourse one can make whatever frontend he wants, that's part
of the point of using opensource;)

> > > we should know about when starting to do this. (try to keep up with me,
> > > usually I'm writing with mind-flow, so it might feel little bit confusing
> > > to read my texts.)
> > >
> > > Any kind of documentation about things is good. Well I think everyone
> > > knows that :).
> >
> > should we take GNU's coding guide?
>
> 	Url to that? I want to see GNU's coding guide (ok, I feel little
> bit lazy to do a google now, but maybe someone else wants link right away
> too).
sorry too used to GNU/linux geeks;)
http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards.html

> > > So the network idea what I had to introduce here is simple. There is
> > > interface for common server / client combination. Everything includes its
> > > own server and client .. lets see this as an component which is included
> > > in every frontend and programs we are going to do. Through that
> > > information is transfered to different clients who needs it and there will
> > > be interface for modules to register into this components offered network.
> >
> > Well one of the biggest challenges is making a dynamic enviourment
> > so diffrent server could have diffrent sort of graphic or music and the
> > client won't need to spend hours on downloading it everytime it connects a
> > new server, that might help.
>
> 	Maybe first there should be downloading section of content what is
> needed by that section of game and after that its only updating. If client
> can't write that information to anywhere then it just has to get necessary
> content from server.

Yea but I guess that a future problem we don't need to deal with now:)

> > Can you give an example in which it solve a problem better than classic
> > approch would?
>
> 	What is this classic approach? Server-farm and alot of clients? I
> simply just turn clients as little servers too, which can act like proxys
> to other players if they are on same area for example.

so you mean doing the server and client in 2 independed modules instead of
2 programs? I guess some already do that, like blizzard.
though they didn't take it as far as being proxies that could be very nice
feature.

> > > If someone knows more coders to attend into this kind of project we should
> > > get those. Even if they are not professionals and they know what they are
> > > doing with coding, they could do routines, modules etc.
> >
> > Btw when I talked about module API I didn't mean loadble module API,
> > I ment more if you want to have a database module or certain feature added
> > you need to have API inside the code, so for example the calling for
> > database would stay the same but the module would implement the functions
> > needed.
>
> 	Ehm. how does this go with the thing I said about getting more
> coders and what could be their tasks?-D
it should be a bit down;)

> > > About module interface making this whole thing as in scalable and generic,
> > > so experts on c/c++/java/+other have to think about multiplatform and
> > > issues what there can be on loading modules. About this I have only
> >
> > I don't think we should use more than one langauge in the meanwhile:)
> > and I think c is good enough:)
>
> 	I think there should be interface like network protocol which
> connects every other platform and basic design for handling that. Through
> that protocol there can be assigned many things and with that we can offer
> support for different languages. Coder just have to know little bit
> sockets or how to use that kind of protocols and start using it to be
> compatible with our other "servers" or programs.

protocol?you mean API?or like the parts of the modules talking with each
other like in CORBA?doesn't it had overhead and slow things down?
I heard some platforms doesn't handle pipes very well;)


> 	Haven't heard anyone else who reads this mailing list? I would
> like to hear other opinnions aswell their introduction. Knowing team makes
> it easier to understand what kind of resources we have.
>
Yea nightspy kidart I know you guys still not sure about what to do and if
to do it but the only way to know is to try participating:)

as for vulture I think he is in army service till end of this week I guss
we'll hear from him then:)

>
> 	Cheers, Mov

Ely

Re: [Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Jouni M. <mo...@pr...>]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ely Levy wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Jouni Miikki wrote:
> >
> > I agree on next things that we should make it most abstract, well-designed
> > data-stuctures so it can be stored in different formats on different
> > places (files, db3, sql etc). If we do this, we can possibly get different
> > kind of frontends for this whole thingie(tm) we are starting to make. Lets
> 
> The question is if to sperate the modules/code from the database,
> if you know eggdrop and lambdamoo that would be the diffrance I mean.

	Uhm, could you specify that more carefully? I didn't quite catch 
the idea, cause I'm not familiar on eggdrop and lambdamoo. Should 
modules/code never be in database? 

> > say someone wants to make java-applet for pages to view certain kind of
> > stuff from space that we have allocated in our data-structures, only
> > showing where some things are moving and what is happening. For that it
> > only needslocation information and what kind of environment it is in. Also
> > maybe news from that area and what has been happening lately. This way
> > someone could follow up what users have been doing on that area and also
> > keep up its information from work and other places without having highend
> > 3d. That was just a simple example :).
> 
> yea the question is how hard is it to achive that?:)

	as hard as this whole project is. 

> >
> > there isn't much on framework yet and that is good, so now we can talk
> > about making certain kind of direction and targets what we are going to
> > achieve. This might take few weeks or even months, but that doesn't mean
> 
> I think we should make it playble as fast as we can,
> even if we are not sure on design that would make more people intrested.

	I'm not interested making things 1000 times all over again just 
cause something had to achieve really fast. 

> > that we shouldn't code anything or do some basic work for it. Maybe
> > defining what kind of libraries (if not own made) we are going to use and
> > what platforms we are mostly trying to target our project. Lately I've
> SDL/crystal space?
> using those and you solved most problems in moving your code between
> platfroms, as much as I dislike it I guess we should support windows as
> well..

	Like I said, front end after all isn't the issue. If someone wants 
to start this doing with crystal space and using sdl thats fine for me, 
but I'm not going to touch those by myself. So I'm going to make my own 
stuff or seek better choises. Only matters that I get the data which every 
frontend uses and I can do my own frontend for that data. 

> > we should know about when starting to do this. (try to keep up with me,
> > usually I'm writing with mind-flow, so it might feel little bit confusing
> > to read my texts.)
> >
> > Any kind of documentation about things is good. Well I think everyone
> > knows that :).
> 
> should we take GNU's coding guide?

	Url to that? I want to see GNU's coding guide (ok, I feel little 
bit lazy to do a google now, but maybe someone else wants link right away 
too). 

> > So the network idea what I had to introduce here is simple. There is
> > interface for common server / client combination. Everything includes its
> > own server and client .. lets see this as an component which is included
> > in every frontend and programs we are going to do. Through that
> > information is transfered to different clients who needs it and there will
> > be interface for modules to register into this components offered network.
> 
> Well one of the biggest challenges is making a dynamic enviourment
> so diffrent server could have diffrent sort of graphic or music and the
> client won't need to spend hours on downloading it everytime it connects a
> new server, that might help.

	Maybe first there should be downloading section of content what is 
needed by that section of game and after that its only updating. If client 
can't write that information to anywhere then it just has to get necessary 
content from server.

> > So you can ask for data if that function is on that network. Its like
> > corba/java rmi etc what there are just losing the basic server from it,
> > which keeps up all the information. With this we can offer
> > java/c/c++/perl+others if someone just codes that interface into that
> > particular programming language, with this we can support the same
> > features all over network. So routing is made in there components
> > as many other things aswell. (I try to document this soon so we can talk
> > more about this). Ofcourse if someone has better ideas to make this kind
> > of system, I'm certainly open for ideas.
> 
> Can you give an example in which it solve a problem better than classic
> approch would?

	What is this classic approach? Server-farm and alot of clients? I 
simply just turn clients as little servers too, which can act like proxys 
to other players if they are on same area for example. 


> > If someone knows more coders to attend into this kind of project we should
> > get those. Even if they are not professionals and they know what they are
> > doing with coding, they could do routines, modules etc.
> 
> Btw when I talked about module API I didn't mean loadble module API,
> I ment more if you want to have a database module or certain feature added
> you need to have API inside the code, so for example the calling for
> database would stay the same but the module would implement the functions
> needed.

	Ehm. how does this go with the thing I said about getting more 
coders and what could be their tasks?-D

> > About module interface making this whole thing as in scalable and generic,
> > so experts on c/c++/java/+other have to think about multiplatform and
> > issues what there can be on loading modules. About this I have only
> 
> I don't think we should use more than one langauge in the meanwhile:)
> and I think c is good enough:)

	I think there should be interface like network protocol which 
connects every other platform and basic design for handling that. Through 
that protocol there can be assigned many things and with that we can offer 
support for different languages. Coder just have to know little bit 
sockets or how to use that kind of protocols and start using it to be 
compatible with our other "servers" or programs.

	Haven't heard anyone else who reads this mailing list? I would 
like to hear other opinnions aswell their introduction. Knowing team makes 
it easier to understand what kind of resources we have. 

	

	Cheers, Mov

Re: [Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Jouni Miikki wrote:

> Lemme introduce myself.
>
> I agree on next things that we should make it most abstract, well-designed
> data-stuctures so it can be stored in different formats on different
> places (files, db3, sql etc). If we do this, we can possibly get different
> kind of frontends for this whole thingie(tm) we are starting to make. Lets

The question is if to sperate the modules/code from the database,
if you know eggdrop and lambdamoo that would be the diffrance I mean.

> say someone wants to make java-applet for pages to view certain kind of
> stuff from space that we have allocated in our data-structures, only
> showing where some things are moving and what is happening. For that it
> only needslocation information and what kind of environment it is in. Also
> maybe news from that area and what has been happening lately. This way
> someone could follow up what users have been doing on that area and also
> keep up its information from work and other places without having highend
> 3d. That was just a simple example :).

yea the question is how hard is it to achive that?:)

>
> there isn't much on framework yet and that is good, so now we can talk
> about making certain kind of direction and targets what we are going to
> achieve. This might take few weeks or even months, but that doesn't mean

I think we should make it playble as fast as we can,
even if we are not sure on design that would make more people intrested.

> that we shouldn't code anything or do some basic work for it. Maybe
> defining what kind of libraries (if not own made) we are going to use and
> what platforms we are mostly trying to target our project. Lately I've
SDL/crystal space?
using those and you solved most problems in moving your code between
platfroms, as much as I dislike it I guess we should support windows as
well..

> been doing alot ogl stuff so it works on linux and windows and one ugly
> thing I found was that random isn't same thing on some c/c++ environments
> and that made me puke. well I made my own one. So thats already something
Yea I know that one..

> we should know about when starting to do this. (try to keep up with me,
> usually I'm writing with mind-flow, so it might feel little bit confusing
> to read my texts.)
>
> Any kind of documentation about things is good. Well I think everyone
> knows that :).

should we take GNU's coding guide?

> So the network idea what I had to introduce here is simple. There is
> interface for common server / client combination. Everything includes its
> own server and client .. lets see this as an component which is included
> in every frontend and programs we are going to do. Through that
> information is transfered to different clients who needs it and there will
> be interface for modules to register into this components offered network.

Well one of the biggest challenges is making a dynamic enviourment
so diffrent server could have diffrent sort of graphic or music and the
client won't need to spend hours on downloading it everytime it connects a
new server, that might help.

> So you can ask for data if that function is on that network. Its like
> corba/java rmi etc what there are just losing the basic server from it,
> which keeps up all the information. With this we can offer
> java/c/c++/perl+others if someone just codes that interface into that
> particular programming language, with this we can support the same
> features all over network. So routing is made in there components
> as many other things aswell. (I try to document this soon so we can talk
> more about this). Ofcourse if someone has better ideas to make this kind
> of system, I'm certainly open for ideas.

Can you give an example in which it solve a problem better than classic
approch would?

> If someone knows more coders to attend into this kind of project we should
> get those. Even if they are not professionals and they know what they are
> doing with coding, they could do routines, modules etc.

Btw when I talked about module API I didn't mean loadble module API,
I ment more if you want to have a database module or certain feature added
you need to have API inside the code, so for example the calling for
database would stay the same but the module would implement the functions
needed.

> About module interface making this whole thing as in scalable and generic,
> so experts on c/c++/java/+other have to think about multiplatform and
> issues what there can be on loading modules. About this I have only

I don't think we should use more than one langauge in the meanwhile:)
and I think c is good enough:)

> dynamic libraries as those can be loaded and also configured to load
> certain kind of modules as needed. So adding those in runtime to
> mainprogram isn't problem. Just as windows / unix systems has their own
> kind 9*of systems for c/c++, so that has to be notified also.
>
> Ok, I'm back to work. Cya all, mov.
>

Ely

Re: [Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Jouni M. <mo...@to...>]

Lemme introduce myself. 

I'm mov from finland, I code and lead team for living in one small company 
and I've been programmin since 12 for achieving really odd things. 
Demoscene is part of my life as I've not been so active in it lately. I 
stop doing stuff for demoscene after I went to work 1997. I got experience 
in graphical programming, network programming and logics. I mostly have 
been coding with c/c++/pascal type of languages(delphi,tpascal etc)/java 
and Assembler (where did you think my nick came from?-D and that nick is 
decided 1993. ;)). I'm 24 years old and I have two rats (ok that was 
interesting). 

I agree on next things that we should make it most abstract, well-designed 
data-stuctures so it can be stored in different formats on different 
places (files, db3, sql etc). If we do this, we can possibly get different 
kind of frontends for this whole thingie(tm) we are starting to make. Lets 
say someone wants to make java-applet for pages to view certain kind of 
stuff from space that we have allocated in our data-structures, only 
showing where some things are moving and what is happening. For that it 
only needslocation information and what kind of environment it is in. Also 
maybe news from that area and what has been happening lately. This way 
someone could follow up what users have been doing on that area and also 
keep up its information from work and other places without having highend 
3d. That was just a simple example :). 

there isn't much on framework yet and that is good, so now we can talk 
about making certain kind of direction and targets what we are going to 
achieve. This might take few weeks or even months, but that doesn't mean 
that we shouldn't code anything or do some basic work for it. Maybe 
defining what kind of libraries (if not own made) we are going to use and 
what platforms we are mostly trying to target our project. Lately I've 
been doing alot ogl stuff so it works on linux and windows and one ugly 
thing I found was that random isn't same thing on some c/c++ environments 
and that made me puke. well I made my own one. So thats already something 
we should know about when starting to do this. (try to keep up with me, 
usually I'm writing with mind-flow, so it might feel little bit confusing 
to read my texts.)

Any kind of documentation about things is good. Well I think everyone 
knows that :). 

So the network idea what I had to introduce here is simple. There is 
interface for common server / client combination. Everything includes its 
own server and client .. lets see this as an component which is included 
in every frontend and programs we are going to do. Through that 
information is transfered to different clients who needs it and there will 
be interface for modules to register into this components offered network. 
So you can ask for data if that function is on that network. Its like 
corba/java rmi etc what there are just losing the basic server from it, 
which keeps up all the information. With this we can offer 
java/c/c++/perl+others if someone just codes that interface into that 
particular programming language, with this we can support the same 
features all over network. So routing is made in there components 
as many other things aswell. (I try to document this soon so we can talk 
more about this). Ofcourse if someone has better ideas to make this kind 
of system, I'm certainly open for ideas. 

If someone knows more coders to attend into this kind of project we should 
get those. Even if they are not professionals and they know what they are 
doing with coding, they could do routines, modules etc. 

About module interface making this whole thing as in scalable and generic, 
so experts on c/c++/java/+other have to think about multiplatform and 
issues what there can be on loading modules. About this I have only 
dynamic libraries as those can be loaded and also configured to load 
certain kind of modules as needed. So adding those in runtime to 
mainprogram isn't problem. Just as windows / unix systems has their own 
kind of systems for c/c++, so that has to be notified also.

Ok, I'm back to work. Cya all, mov. 

[Dmrpg-devel] First post

[Ely L. <el...@cs...>]

Ok, so here goes the first post in what I hope would be one of many:)
The goal of the project is to create a RPG engine that would make
a feature full protable RPG maker, so people could write adventures
create worlds change rules (add classes magick or even a whole diffrent
RPG system) without needing amazing programing talent.
I know people think it's a huge project it would take years,
well its been done in few projects only they chose to make it very
specific, and I guess it would take around a year before it would start
being usuable, anyhow it would be a great try.
I truly hope people would join and help making a real RPG.
(btw there are even more crazy plans for the future ie: making
a network of servers and letting players wonder around them;)

few topics need to be decided on in the design section:
(in no special order)

modular API - In order to achive the ability to change and add things
we need an API that would allow making module easy even when using loadble
modules.

3d engine - There are few already made 3d engine like cystal space
and few others we need to decide which one to use.

database - are we going to suppose out database like sql? are we going to
use a file database like db3? what format(tables) should we use?

client-server - Are we going to make diffrent client server or like mov
suggested a more parralel kind of thing (mov care to explain better?:)

protocols - client server protocol, do we want only 3d clients?
personaly I rather it to support anything from telnet to 2d to 3d.
but it needs thinking about if it won't make too much over head
no point in wasting years over it.

scripting langauge - I think we need a scripting langauge, now there
are 2 forms of it as I see it, loadble scripts like if you want a feature
instead of writing it in a module make it a script, and in server
scripting which I think is the better option, it can go from something
like nwn scripting langauge to something like lambdamoo where every
object is saved letting people add new verbs(actions) to it or properties
I find it very nice and I offer people to take a second reading about it
it does need changing but the idea is very nice.

sorry for it being a bit messy, just too many ideas and possblities:)
but we are in the brain storming stage no?;)

comments suggestion?

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel