Thread: [Devil-Linux-discuss] Time Dicer

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Any thoughts on including timedicer in devil linux ?

Remush. 		 	   		  
  Well TimeDicer <http://www.timedicer.co.uk> is written by me so I 
might be a bit biased -:)

TimeDicer is a wrapper for rdiff-backup 
<http://www.nongnu.org/rdiff-backup/>, which is a really cool backup 
utility. rdiff-backup was requested for addition to DL a little time ago 
(https://sourceforge.net/apps/mantisbt/devil-linux/view.php?id=8). 
rdiff-backup itself is a python script so I think (though I am not an 
expert) that a user could add it, but it also depends upon the librsync 
library <https://sourceforge.net/projects/librsync/files/> which is not 
provided in DL. The first step is for one of the gods (demons?) of DL to 
add librsync into the build (I think this would include the rdiff tester 
program), with or without rdiff-backup itself. Sadly I don't think this 
will happen in the current cycle release (1.4) because it is 'frozen' 
but who knows maybe for 1.5?

As well as raising the possibility of making DL the OS of choice for 
TimeDicer Server, having rdiff-backup would also allow easy and 
efficient backup from DL machines using rdiff-backup. (rdiff-backup has 
to run on both client and server, like rsync.) At the moment this can be 
achieved by a workaround (the remote backup [e.g. TimeDicer] server - 
running Ubuntu, say - mounts the DL /home using sshfs and can then run 
rdiff-backup on it), but this is slow and involves a lot of network traffic.

DL already includes Bacula <http://www.bacula.org/en/>, which is an 
alternative backup program.

Dominic

On 06/11/2010 06:17, Stephen Butler wrote:
> Any thoughts on including timedicer in devil linux ?
>
> Remush.
>
>
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On 11/06/10 07:52, Dominic Raferd wrote:
>    Well TimeDicer<http://www.timedicer.co.uk>  is written by me so I
> might be a bit biased -:)

I think there's a good case for DL having application build modules.  So 
you can custom build your install iso including or not the apps of your 
choice.  Using a handy-dandy point and click gui of course :-)  Then new 
apps like this can be offered more easily.

The main problem is that all apps sit in ram on the running system 
whether they are used or not.  Bloat is a bigger issue for DL than for 
HDD based distributions because of this.

Dick

  Not sure if you are quite serious about the point'n'click gui for 
building apps? It's not quite in the spirit of DL is it?! But I like the 
idea anyway. Are you thinking of a website which would be based around a 
DL build environment and allow visitors to custom-build their DL without 
having to create their own build system. Like Thinstation's TS-O-Matic 
<http://www.thinstation.org/>?

I take your point about running apps causing bloat but surely a library 
such as librsync is not using any RAM unless it is being called? Same 
goes for rdiff-backup; unlike bacula (I think), it only runs as a 
process while it is active. In general, even daemon-based apps only use 
RAM if the user chooses to enable them (usually via DL setup). And there 
is plenty of space on the CD.

Dominic

On 06/11/2010 09:20, Dick Middleton wrote:
> On 11/06/10 07:52, Dominic Raferd wrote:
>>     Well TimeDicer<http://www.timedicer.co.uk>   is written by me so I
>> might be a bit biased -:)
> I think there's a good case for DL having application build modules.  So
> you can custom build your install iso including or not the apps of your
> choice.  Using a handy-dandy point and click gui of course :-)  Then new
> apps like this can be offered more easily.
>
> The main problem is that all apps sit in ram on the running system
> whether they are used or not.  Bloat is a bigger issue for DL than for
> HDD based distributions because of this.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper
> David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book "Blueprint to a
> Billion" shares his insights and actions to help propel your
> business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Devil-linux-discuss mailing list
> Dev...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/devil-linux-discuss

On 11/06/10 09:50, Dominic Raferd wrote:
> Not sure if you are quite serious about the point'n'click gui for
> building apps?

No, but that sort of thing; where you just provide a list of apps you 
want included and go create iso.

  > Are you thinking of a website which would be based around a
> DL build environment and allow visitors to custom-build their DL without
> having to create their own build system. Like Thinstation's TS-O-Matic
> <http://www.thinstation.org/>?

I'm not familiar with thinstation.  A quick read suggests they load apps 
after booting. My idea is to create custom CDs - before booting. But 
that's the general idea.

> I take your point about running apps causing bloat but surely a library
> such as librsync is not using any RAM unless it is being called?

No. You can run DL off the CD/usb stick or you can load the entire root 
filesystem from the CD into ramdisk.  I use the latter, it's snappier 
and saves having a cd drive or a dongle sticking out all the time.  It 
means you can have the config file and the iso on the same stick and 
retain the protection that's DL's main feature.  It needs a ramdisk that 
is big enough to hold the entire root filesystem plus enough ram to run 
the system.  So obviously even unused components consume ram.

Dick

  On 06/11/2010 11:50, Dick Middleton wrote:
>
> I'm not familiar with thinstation.  A quick read suggests they load apps
> after booting. My idea is to create custom CDs - before booting. But
> that's the general idea.
Thinstation is for thin clients that use network booting. But the 
TS-O-Matic website allows you to build your thin client online and then 
download it to use. It may not be technically the same as having a 
DL-build-your-own website but it is the same idea. At a practical level 
a DL-O-Matic would probably need to produce a diff file which could then 
be applied to a standard bootcd.iso.
> You can run DL off the CD/usb stick or you can load the entire root
> filesystem from the CD into ramdisk.  I use the latter, it's snappier
> and saves having a cd drive or a dongle sticking out all the time.  It
> means you can have the config file and the iso on the same stick and
> retain the protection that's DL's main feature.  It needs a ramdisk that
> is big enough to hold the entire root filesystem plus enough ram to run
> the system.  So obviously even unused components consume ram.
Ah yes, in that case. Better for you that DL should be a barebones 
system and all apps should be built-on by the user (to minimise RAM 
use). Though 450MB RAM is pretty cheap these days. Running from flash 
drive is pretty fast, too.

I'm interested in the security aspect of running from ramdisk. Do you 
boot the system and then remove the cd/flash drive? Is this safer than 
having boot system and config on CD, or on flash drive with a physical 
lock (whether or not config is on the boot partition)? (In all cases it 
is vulnerable to someone with physical access to the machine.)

Dominic

On 11/06/10 13:34, Dominic Raferd wrote:
> On 06/11/2010 11:50, Dick Middleton wrote:

> TS-O-Matic website allows you to build your thin client online and then
> download it to use.

Yes, I discovered that later.  It's smart isn't it.

> I'm interested in the security aspect of running from ramdisk. Do you
> boot the system and then remove the cd/flash drive?

Yes.  I have 2 partitions on my usb stick.  One for the boot iso and the 
other for storing the config file.

  Is this safer than
> having boot system and config on CD,

Safer? no.  It's just I don't have a cd drive anymore.  A cd drive is 
not ideal for being left for a long time unused.  My DL has no moving 
parts. It runs typically for a year without rebooting (power fail 
usually gets it sometime :( )

or on flash drive with a physical
> lock (whether or not config is on the boot partition)? (In all cases it
> is vulnerable to someone with physical access to the machine.)

Sure.  The problem with usb stick is that they're a bit vulnerable to 
being knocked and being pulled out.  I guess an sd card reader would be OK.

As for physical access, well yes. However, for better or for worse, 
with only volatile storage attached if the system goes down then it's 
down and gone until somebody comes along with boot media.

The read-only root fs is DL's big differentiator; might as well make the 
most of it.

Dick