dev-cpp-users

RE: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Daniel G. <sp...@ho...>]

The windows API seems a good idea. I'm a windows programmer but I've never 
touched wxWindows or GTK


>From: "P.T. Waugh MA" <pt...@ea...>
>To: dev...@li...
>Subject: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
>Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:57:50 -0800
>
>Hi,
>
>As a new programmer targeting the Windows environment, am I better off 
>learning the WINAPI, wxWindows, or GTK?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Patrick
>
>
>
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Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Daniel G. <sp...@ho...>]

You can create a window in 5 lines, but won't that be very high level? With 
the windows API you have other things to set up. Or is there a more detailed 
version that takes 30 lines of code?


>From: Goran Rakić <go...@de...>
>To: dev...@li...
>Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
>Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:56:56 +0100
>
>Dana četvrtak 15. januar 2004. 21:25, Michal Molhanec je napisao/la:
> > Michael C Urban wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I would start with the wxWindows toolkit. It's cross platform, and 
>easier
> > > to learn than either the Win API or GTK. GTK also is somewhat buggy on
> > > Win32 yet, and its widgets look rather out of place since it draws its
> > > own widgets instead of using the native Win32 ones.
> >
> > GTK+ can look nearly native:
> > http://gtk-wimp.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > > wxWindows is probably your best bet. Easier to learn than GTK. Better
> > > Windows support, and more cross-platform.
> >
> > IMHO is GTK easier to learn than wxWin. But IMHO it makes much more
> > sense to compare wxWindows to gtkmm and I think that gtkmm + glademm is
> > really simple to use. glademm uses much modern C++ than wxWin
>
>Gtk is easier, and I suggest you to try GTKmm and glademm. It is very good 
>GUI
>toolkit and it is not buggy at all.
>
>On the other hand, you can get a window in FLTK in 5 lines of code! It is 
>very
>fast, tiny and ... GUI toolkit, but it is not to be used with so called
>"mainstream windows applications" as it donot support native windows look.
>eFLTK on the other hand support some way of theming, so you can try to make
>it more Windowish...
>
>wxWin is big MFC like GUI library and I donot feel confortable when using 
>it.
>I donot know why, I simply donot like that style.
>
>Goran
>
>
>
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Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Michael C U. <mu...@cb...>]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Daniel Glenfield wrote:

> You can create a window in 5 lines, but won't that be very high level? With
> the windows API you have other things to set up. Or is there a more detailed
> version that takes 30 lines of code?

With the Windows API, you have to set up a lot of things manually that the
toolkit's class will set up for you automatically. Example, if you want to
load an image in a window and be able to scroll that image, the toolkit
has a class that will automatically set up the scrollbars for you. With
the Windows API, the scrollbars have to be manually programmed to
determine how far their range should be, how far it should move with each
click, how far it should move the image with each click, where the image
ends so that it doesn't scroll past the end, etc. You also have to
manually program the scrollbar movement and set its position. And that
won't even give you the ability to use the arrow keys, the page up/page
down keys, or the scroll wheel. If you want those, it's more manual
programming. The result is that it can literally take 80 or 90 lines of
code just to get a decent scrollbar using the Windows API. Using a high
level toolkit, you can probably do it in less than 10. In Java Swing, I
just did it with 3 lines of code. Literally, it took me 3 lines of code to
do what takes about 90 lines of code to do using the Windows API.

So yes, you are working at a much higher level with a toolkit. But
generally, that is a good thing. It lets you concentrate on what you want
to do (display a scrollable image), rather than how to do what you want to
do (implement a bunch of math formulas and such to determine how far the
image should scroll with each mouse click on a scroll arrow, how far the
scrollbar should move in response, etc.)

Mike

Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Daniel G. <sp...@ho...>]

Personally I'm at a bit of a quandary (thanks Dictionary.com) as I'm sure 
many new Windows programmers are. Do we work hard to learn the old APIs or 
do we hold off for the WinFX api?

Does anyone know of a good site with WinFX information? Yes I could google 
it but there's no guarantee I will find the best site. Google isn't a real 
world programmer.




>From: Michael C Urban <mu...@cb...>
>To: Daniel Glenfield <sp...@ho...>
>CC: go...@de..., dev...@li...
>Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:07:23 -0600 (CST)
>
>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Daniel Glenfield wrote:
>
> > You can create a window in 5 lines, but won't that be very high level? 
>With
> > the windows API you have other things to set up. Or is there a more 
>detailed
> > version that takes 30 lines of code?
>
>With the Windows API, you have to set up a lot of things manually that the
>toolkit's class will set up for you automatically. Example, if you want to
>load an image in a window and be able to scroll that image, the toolkit
>has a class that will automatically set up the scrollbars for you. With
>the Windows API, the scrollbars have to be manually programmed to
>determine how far their range should be, how far it should move with each
>click, how far it should move the image with each click, where the image
>ends so that it doesn't scroll past the end, etc. You also have to
>manually program the scrollbar movement and set its position. And that
>won't even give you the ability to use the arrow keys, the page up/page
>down keys, or the scroll wheel. If you want those, it's more manual
>programming. The result is that it can literally take 80 or 90 lines of
>code just to get a decent scrollbar using the Windows API. Using a high
>level toolkit, you can probably do it in less than 10. In Java Swing, I
>just did it with 3 lines of code. Literally, it took me 3 lines of code to
>do what takes about 90 lines of code to do using the Windows API.
>
>So yes, you are working at a much higher level with a toolkit. But
>generally, that is a good thing. It lets you concentrate on what you want
>to do (display a scrollable image), rather than how to do what you want to
>do (implement a bunch of math formulas and such to determine how far the
>image should scroll with each mouse click on a scroll arrow, how far the
>scrollbar should move in response, etc.)
>
>Mike
>

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Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Michael C U. <mu...@cb...>]

Well, like I said, the Win32 API will eventually go away. But it's going
to go away for a long time because Microsoft can't afford to break all of
the legacy applications that are out there.

As far as Longhorn, the latest word is that we won't see it until 2006, or
maybe even 2007. So the Win32 API is going to be the main API for Windows
for at least a few more years.

But if you want to write WinFX apps, like I said, .NET is a subset of
WinFX. According to Microsoft, "the best way for your apps to be ready for
Longhorn and WinFX, and the best way for you as a programmmer to be ready
for WinFX, is to write .NET apps today."

So what you can do if you want to learn WinFX is download the .NET SDK
from Microsoft. And then after you have played with it a bit, you can see
for yourself (as I did), how much it sucks and how bad its performance is,
and then you can switch to Java.

Mike

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Daniel Glenfield wrote:

> Personally I'm at a bit of a quandary (thanks Dictionary.com) as I'm sure
> many new Windows programmers are. Do we work hard to learn the old APIs or
> do we hold off for the WinFX api?
>
> Does anyone know of a good site with WinFX information? Yes I could google
> it but there's no guarantee I will find the best site. Google isn't a real
> world programmer.
>
>
>
>
> >From: Michael C Urban <mu...@cb...>
> >To: Daniel Glenfield <sp...@ho...>
> >CC: go...@de..., dev...@li...
> >Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
> >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:07:23 -0600 (CST)
> >
> >On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Daniel Glenfield wrote:
> >
> > > You can create a window in 5 lines, but won't that be very high level?
> >With
> > > the windows API you have other things to set up. Or is there a more
> >detailed
> > > version that takes 30 lines of code?
> >
> >With the Windows API, you have to set up a lot of things manually that the
> >toolkit's class will set up for you automatically. Example, if you want to
> >load an image in a window and be able to scroll that image, the toolkit
> >has a class that will automatically set up the scrollbars for you. With
> >the Windows API, the scrollbars have to be manually programmed to
> >determine how far their range should be, how far it should move with each
> >click, how far it should move the image with each click, where the image
> >ends so that it doesn't scroll past the end, etc. You also have to
> >manually program the scrollbar movement and set its position. And that
> >won't even give you the ability to use the arrow keys, the page up/page
> >down keys, or the scroll wheel. If you want those, it's more manual
> >programming. The result is that it can literally take 80 or 90 lines of
> >code just to get a decent scrollbar using the Windows API. Using a high
> >level toolkit, you can probably do it in less than 10. In Java Swing, I
> >just did it with 3 lines of code. Literally, it took me 3 lines of code to
> >do what takes about 90 lines of code to do using the Windows API.
> >
> >So yes, you are working at a much higher level with a toolkit. But
> >generally, that is a good thing. It lets you concentrate on what you want
> >to do (display a scrollable image), rather than how to do what you want to
> >do (implement a bunch of math formulas and such to determine how far the
> >image should scroll with each mouse click on a scroll arrow, how far the
> >scrollbar should move in response, etc.)
> >
> >Mike
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
> http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
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>

Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Michael C U. <mu...@cb...>]

I also don't think we are going to see a mass migration to Longhorn
either. Longhorn is going to require some truly serious hardware to
deliver acceptable performance. Microsoft has estimated that that by the
time we see Longhorn, new PCs will have a dual core processor running at
least 6 Ghz, a terabyte of hard disk space, at least 2 Gb of RAM, and a
very powerful 3D graphics accelerator. If that's any indication about the
mimimum hardware requirements Longhorn is going to need, it's going to be
a tough sell to businesses and such who aren't always on the cutting edge
of the technology curve. After all, remember that something like 30% of
Windows users are still using Windows 98.

Mike

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Michael C Urban wrote:

> As far as Longhorn, the latest word is that we won't see it until 2006, or
> maybe even 2007. So the Win32 API is going to be the main API for Windows
> for at least a few more years.

Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[<or...@vp...>]

Michael C Urban wrote:
> I also don't think we are going to see a mass migration to Longhorn
> either. Longhorn is going to require some truly serious hardware to
> deliver acceptable performance. Microsoft has estimated that that by the
> time we see Longhorn, new PCs will have a dual core processor running at
> least 6 Ghz, a terabyte of hard disk space, at least 2 Gb of RAM, and a
> very powerful 3D graphics accelerator. If that's any indication about the
> mimimum hardware requirements Longhorn is going to need, it's going to be
> a tough sell to businesses and such who aren't always on the cutting edge
> of the technology curve. After all, remember that something like 30% of
> Windows users are still using Windows 98.

Like ME for example.
And I don't think I'll go any further than Windows XP, IF even I'll ever 
install that. I don't want an "operating system" (Longhorn), that 
consumes 6x times as much power as my PC provides now (Celeron 500 MHz) 
just by doing NOTHING (not to mention the stupidly uneconomical use of 
electricity). If Windows 98 will be totally out-of-date (as Windows 3.1 
is now), then I'll switch to Debian/Linux/KDE forever.

Oh, and to add something to the REAL subject: I recommend wxWindows.

--
Greetings,
   Balázs

Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Daniel G. <sp...@ho...>]

I don't think that spec will be required. I really don't think that will be 
the case!
and we still supply customers who request windows 3.1 bits and pieces!


>From: Michael C Urban <mu...@cb...>
>To: Daniel Glenfield <sp...@ho...>
>CC: go...@de..., dev...@li...
>Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:07:12 -0600 (CST)
>
>I also don't think we are going to see a mass migration to Longhorn
>either. Longhorn is going to require some truly serious hardware to
>deliver acceptable performance. Microsoft has estimated that that by the
>time we see Longhorn, new PCs will have a dual core processor running at
>least 6 Ghz, a terabyte of hard disk space, at least 2 Gb of RAM, and a
>very powerful 3D graphics accelerator. If that's any indication about the
>mimimum hardware requirements Longhorn is going to need, it's going to be
>a tough sell to businesses and such who aren't always on the cutting edge
>of the technology curve. After all, remember that something like 30% of
>Windows users are still using Windows 98.
>
>Mike
>
>On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Michael C Urban wrote:
>
> > As far as Longhorn, the latest word is that we won't see it until 2006, 
>or
> > maybe even 2007. So the Win32 API is going to be the main API for 
>Windows
> > for at least a few more years.

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Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Michael C U. <mu...@cb...>]

Try to imagine running everything as managed code. Even low level system
processes. That's what Longhorn is going to do. Whether the specs will be
that high or not, I don't know. But they will definately be a lot higher
than the specs for Windows XP.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Daniel Glenfield wrote:

> I don't think that spec will be required. I really don't think that will be
> the case!
> and we still supply customers who request windows 3.1 bits and pieces!
>
>
> >From: Michael C Urban <mu...@cb...>
> >To: Daniel Glenfield <sp...@ho...>
> >CC: go...@de..., dev...@li...
> >Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn
> >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:07:12 -0600 (CST)
> >
> >I also don't think we are going to see a mass migration to Longhorn
> >either. Longhorn is going to require some truly serious hardware to
> >deliver acceptable performance. Microsoft has estimated that that by the
> >time we see Longhorn, new PCs will have a dual core processor running at
> >least 6 Ghz, a terabyte of hard disk space, at least 2 Gb of RAM, and a
> >very powerful 3D graphics accelerator. If that's any indication about the
> >mimimum hardware requirements Longhorn is going to need, it's going to be
> >a tough sell to businesses and such who aren't always on the cutting edge
> >of the technology curve. After all, remember that something like 30% of
> >Windows users are still using Windows 98.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Michael C Urban wrote:
> >
> > > As far as Longhorn, the latest word is that we won't see it until 2006,
> >or
> > > maybe even 2007. So the Win32 API is going to be the main API for
> >Windows
> > > for at least a few more years.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo
>
>

Re: [Dev-C++] Offtopic: Advice on GUI to learn

[Goran <go...@de...>]

Dana petak 16. januar 2004. 20:57, Michael C Urban je napisao/la:
> Try to imagine running everything as managed code. Even low level system
> processes. That's what Longhorn is going to do. Whether the specs will be
> that high or not, I don't know. But they will definately be a lot higher
> than the specs for Windows XP.

=46rom some beta test you will need P4@2.6Ghz with at least 1024MB RAM. I t=
hink=20
that this will not be too much for 2007. But there is again one simple=20
question: If OS need that CPU power, what the hell applications need to do.=
=20
And forget about some easy database apps, think about simulations, 3d games=
,=20
3d rendering, image processing, ...=20

I donot beleive that thay will drop WinAPI too. MS Office will be the last=
=20
application that will be written in new API - they even donot use the same=
=20
GUI library ;)

As someone already said:
Your Windows session is over.
What do you want to play next?

Bye,
Goran