Community responsibilities: Compile failures
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I started programing in Fortran, Basic, and RPG II over twenty-five years ago. I have been doing Delphi projects for eight years. I am now involved in a project which requires C++. I heard good things about Dev-C++ and downloaded it and installed it a few days ago. I loaded all the updates.
I have not been able to compile anything, not even the 'Example' programs.
I see from many posts that I am not alone in not being able to make Dev-C++ function at all. There seems to be very little interest out there in supporting those of us who cannot even compile the simplest program, even after many hours of digging through forums and making numerous changes to the setup. I can't believe that there is a major problem, since so many of you have working installations.
Can't somebody with some real knowledge answer our pleas for help? All the details are in the slavezero thread of 2003-03-05 ('Am I stupid...')
Thanks
martyger
Actually, the thread is: 'help, unable...'.
Hello,
I couldn't find a thread starting by 'help, unable...' on the forum, please provide me a direct link to it. Please understand that the forum is made for users and by users. Developers of the project (like me) get already a lot of emails. If your question hasn't been answered on the forum, mail one of us and we will reply to you.
Greetings,
Colin Laplace
Well, first of all, I'm not a Dev-C++ developer. I'm just a simple user who had similar problems to yours.
Dev-C++ is beta software. It means it is not supposed to work perfectly. They're continously trying to improve it. But when a problem seems to be fixed, another one arises.
An example (and here I go with your failures): in the last version, compiler include directories are wrong. To see them, navigate Tools -> Compiler Options -> Directories -> C++ includes. You should see two entries:
%InstallationPath%\include\c++
%InstallationPath%\include\c++\mingw32
You could have another entry with "%InstallationPath%\include", but it's not necessary if you already have it in the section "C includes". Well, as I said, a normal installation does not generate these two entries. Moreover, you can't edit or add any entry (and I really don't know why, it worked perfectly in the previous version). What did I do? I modified the entries manually in the file "%InstallationPath%\devcpp.ini". It's a plain text file, you can find C and C++ includes listed in section [CompilerSets_0].
About the examples, many of them are obsolete. New versions of GCC (e.g. GCC 3.2) follow strictly the rules of the ISO C++ standardization. These rules forbid compatibility with old C++ code. For example, the Hello Application starts with
#include <iostream.h>
and, with the C++ standardization, this has changed to
#include <iostream>
If we want to use cin and cout objects, we must add another line a code
using namespace std;
I think this two changes are enough for the Hello example to run without problems. Anyway, I suggest you not to use Dev-C++ examples, but others you may found in books and tutorials. If you have some experience programming (not necessarily in C++) I recommend you the book "C++ in action" which is available online FOR FREE, in "http://www.relisoft.com/book". Reading the first chapters you will get used to the new C++ conventions.
And if all this stuff seems too complicated, you can always use a non-free C++ IDE. The purpose of these guys (again, I'm not one of them) is making a free and reliable C++ IDE, but perhaps it's going to take some time (to be reliable, since it's already free :-). I hope Dev-C++ installation will not cause so many problems in the future.
Enjoy programming,
John Barleycorn
Here's the link to the 'help' post:
https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=776601&forum_id=33286
Hello Colin,
I'm happy to hear from you.
I do think the task you and your associates have taken on is awesome and the result seems to be pretty close to working.
Please understand that the rest of this post is not flaming at you, but simply an expression of the 'business and work ethic' of an 'oldtimer', after wasting two days on something that should have taken ten minutes.
Having been in the medical instrumentation and scientific image restoration end of this business for many years, I guess I had expectations of a more usable release than what I got. Probably, if I were not a novice at C++, I would be able to make some work-arounds which would allow me to use the package... However, a lot of novices, like me, like to start-out with freeware, as it is usually easier to understand as the source code is available for study.
In my case, I also have no wish to support Bill Gate's organization and I found that Borland's free C++ had many problems, too. I was really looking forward to becoming part of this community and maybe even doing something useful within it.
I've tried all the mods you suggested, as have many others, as I have read many postings about this. (Also on the Bloodshed forum) Nothing seems to clear the problem. I'm going to load the package on another computer running Win2000 and see if that makes any difference.
It seems to me that if the Examples are obsolete then they should be deleted or replaced. Deleting them is probably not so tough to do. Causing so many people to waste their time is not nice or constructive. If I had bought a compiler, it would have cost me much much less than the time I have already put in on this.
I don't think that releasing a 'beta' version, which is basically non-functional to many of the users, is good for anyone. At least we should be able to start-up using some source code provided by the developers.
I would not have even started this process, if I had known the state the code was in. It doesn't really seem like a beta release to me, if it still has obsolete examples, directory issues, etc.
Perhaps one thing I could contribute to this effort is an overview of how to run the project from a more 'Engineering Excellence' perspective. Perhaps, the most fundamental fix would be to send the code out to people like the guys screaming at you and have them evaluate and work with your team to improve the UI. After all, WE novices with a good background in other languages are the target customers, I think, not the guys with black belts.
In any case, just to put this into perspective from my seat, I have been given some C++ source to integrate into a project I'm working on at the Harvard Medical School's Joslin Diabetes Clinic. We are developing a new kind of camera for taking pix of the retina (the light sensitive layer of cells in the back of the eye). I have done this whole project using Delphi. Some of the other guys have done their stuff in MS VB. Now, I really need to understand exactly how to get Dev-C++ to work for me, in the next day or two, or I will probably just go with MS Visual C++. From what little I have seen of Dev-C++ and the IDE, I would love to use it, and explore all of its ins and outs.
If you are interested, you can see some of my work at www.gerstenlab.com.
Sorry to give you these headaches, but, I am very passionate about my work.
Marty Gersten
I'm a user of Dev-C++. This response to your post does not necessarily reflect anybody else's opinion. I am not an experienced programmer, but a tinkerer who just loves to spend his free time abusing his mind with trivial programming problems. This response to your latest post is simply my frustrated reaction to BS.
If you don't like it, don't use it. You didn't pay for it, so expect a full refund. If you don't like the IDE or the examples, use the command line, a text editor, and a good C++ For Dummies book. Or, you could buy into Microsoft C++, which isn't bad, but it definitely isn't good, either.
Sure, people who write free software are a little sloppy with the support and documentation. But then again, take a look at size of their bonus incentive checks.
Don't complain that you can't be productive. You're never gonna get something for nothing. And DON'T say that you aren't flaming in this forum, because if you weren't, you simply would have bought a new compiler and left the forum alone.
Actually, if I had the time to tinker with it, I would do so. However, I have become part of the 'establishment', with a family to support and projects crucial to people's health as my primary responsibilities. My BS is as good as yours, I think, and I have already 'paid my dues' several times.
As you suggest, I got my refund and left the forum, although I do look in from time to time. I got the book for dummies,( actually several), bought a Borland C++ Bulider Compiler for under $70, and went on my way.
If I have offended anyone, I certainly apologize. Next time you need an eye operation, perhaps you'll get your local pharmacist to help you, she loves to just tinker around with microsurgery, too.
Enjoy!
MG
I'm sorry Martin but I have to respond to this
Yes I appreciate that you are a seasoned programmer and also the sphere that you work in.
I personally tried working with C some time ago and gave it up as a bad job because it seemed to be too complicated to understand.
I tried with the visual representations of C and (by extension) C++ eg Borland and MSVC.
This approach did not appeal to me at all as I am basically a "command line" based programmer so this idea with the visual languages of dropping boxes on other boxes etc and then changing the parameters to suit your purposes (an over simplification of course) I was looking for something command line based - call me a sucker for punishment if you want - and I found this in originally DEV Pascal and now DEV C++, I know its more work but, if I am writing the code I feel more confident about the final results, than if I trust my work to a program that writes my code for me.
I can understand people that may disagree with me but, as an apprentice in programming in C++ this suits me
Jon Edwards
I'm happy when people find a place that gives them the tools they need to be more productive. I hope I have not given the impression that I'm down on the whole project just because I'm not fond of command line programming. I admire people with skills different from mine and I try to recruit my team members specifically for having such skills.
I agree that the existence of this forum alone is a substantial acheivement. Maybe my problem is that coming from my medical imaging software background , which has a certain 'life and death' aspect to it, I expect things to work, at least to some degree, in a demo.
I think the thing that set me off was finding that in the previous months, many other people had complained about exactly the same problem that I had experienced and that apparently no one felt enough empathy for them or their time or income to at least update the demo code.
I would say that from say a marketing point of view, the forum seems to be divided into a small 'priesthood' of Dev-C++ wizards and a larger group of 'dummies' who play in the dust, and get an occasional bone thrown at them. Being a peripheral member of a different, and perhaps even more arrogant 'priesthood', I got offended at being treated like an ordinary 'dummy'.
To sum it up, from my point of view, the 'vision' or 'goal' of this forum appears to be to provide certain tools to all levels of C++ enthusiasts. However, in practice, it only provides goodies to a small sub-set of its members. And it actually provides 'baddies' to guys like me, who are ignorant of the ins and outs. So it seems overall to want to keep a certain kind of aggresive exclusivity, while promoting an image of being a democratic institution.
Now that's probably much too much psycho-social-babble for one posting. I hope these postings will stimulate some interest here, only because I think this damn forum has so much potential to educate and help people to be more productive.
It can be much better... really, with little effort expended.
And, by the way everyone involved in bloodshed DEV and all related sites please keep up the good work.
I think the size of this forum alone justifies what you are achieving
all the best
Jon Edwards
I do hope that one of you decides to use that "donate" button in appreciation.
I've been following this project since '98-'99...can't remember exactly, back when it was only slightly more advanced than notepad, and I got my registration code from somewhere back then.
What mr. Gersten points out is absolutely valid concerns, and it's not good enough to tell him to just f**k off if he doesn't like it.
It's the very simple things that makes the difference between a neat pet-project, and a great semi-professional tool. The very least to expect when downloading a piece of software, is that it bloody well perform the most basic operation one can expect of it, (in this case to compile a program), without any hot-fixes or small tweaks necessary.
This is by no means a new problem, the compile problems have been around for years, the faulty installs, the inability to locate and include files, the errors on resource files.. all recurrent themes in different variations.
These things should be the topmost priority for fixing, yet they still arise with more or less every new version.
Although I did pay for this product, I just shrug and say "ok, maybe next version", because it is just a neat pet-project. I'm fully aware that it's made for free, and by individuals using their spare time on it, but....
1. This program has been "Beta" forever, saying that you can't expect it to work because it's beta, is undermined by the fact that this proggie has always been beta, and it seems it will continue to be. Does that mean we can never expect it to work ?
2. Asking for fixes, and voicing concerns for the software is very valuable feedback to the developers. (Particularly for a "Beta" program). Saying that people should either shut up and live with it, or get the heck out, is just about the dumbest thing I ever heard.
3. There was nothing resembling flaming in the original thread, he voiced a serious, valid and well-founded concern. Telling him to leave is no solution. But let's hear from Colin, do you want our feedback or not ?
As it is, this proggie has lots of problems, some are minor, some are major. If we can't point out those problems, then what ? We just f**k off then ? Seriously.. just because we are not falling over backwards and saying "I'll live with anything because this proggie is free, and it's Beta !", doesn't mean we don't want this software to work, some of us even paid for it...
At any rate, these forums are also for people to voice concerns and opinions, also if they don't agree..
Is this a flame ? By no means, I still enjoy Dev-C++, it's my favorite pet-project. Too bad it's not a semi-professional tool ;)
You are totally right to report problems you are having with Dev-C++, or to tell when things are going wrong, and we need it in order to make this project the best as possible.
I would recommend you either use the Bugs section on this sourceforge page, or that you contact us directly by email to report problems.
Greetings,
Colin Laplace
One note.
I (and a goodly number of folks) have worked with many dozens of folks to get them up and going, and to work through initial problems.
Most of us work/post on the Bloodshed board, rather than the dev-cpp users board - if you click on forums on the web site, you will see a lot more posts that are there. Feel free to give that a shot.
"Too bad it's not a semi-professional tool"
I use it most every day at work, I find it quite professional to work with...
In my experience, the number one problem that people have with Dev currently is that they feel free to put Dev in whatever place they want, which unfortunately ends up being in a directory with spaces in it, like "Program Files" - then, when they find out that is bad, they do not fully uninstall and problems linger.
The fact that Unix ancestry tools have problems with spaces in paths is not well known, heck, I have gotten quite rude responses on occasion from folks who informed me "I am NOT using Unix, I an using Windows!", so I think we need to do a better job of getting that word out.
In general, I have developed an attitude that says, unless I *know* it is ok to install something other than default, I let it go where it wants...this has served me quite well with Dev. I have not had a significant issue with Dev in a very long time.
The other place we need to improve education is on how you report a problem. Starting with the basics:
(1) Report which version of Dev you are using. (Newest is NOT a version number)
(2) Provide a simple example of code that shows your problem. The simpler and more focused the example is, the easier it is to isolate things. Copy and paste your code, do not retype
(3) Always post your full compile log (NOT just the errors) The right mouse button brings up the copy menu.
If you provide me with this basic information, and work with me, I am more than willing to do anything I can to help. And I am not just saying that, I have been doing it pretty much every day for a couple of years now. And so have Adrian, and Zero and Clifford and ...
Wayne
>>>martyger: "I don't think that releasing a 'beta' version, which is basically non-functional to many of the users, is good for anyone. At least we should be able to start-up using some source code provided by the developers."
Well, thats not true. DevC++ actually works for most people. If it was different, there would be a lot more posts here. Reason is, almost everyone comes these boards when he has a problem, but a very low percentile of people come here to.. well talk, chat, say "thank you",... whatever. Of course I don't have the exact numbers, but even if every second post would complain about an inoperational DevC++, DevC++ would still work for over 90% of it's users. Thats unfortunatly the way support boards work.
As for my personal opinion, I think most of you are not complaining about DevC++ but the compiler. DevC++ is just the IDE. It's minGW that compiles your code and causes problems - but not because minGW is buggy but because you are most likely trying to compile old code. The C/++ standards have changed a lot over the past years and the people who make the minGW compiler try to be almost 100% standard compliant.
However, I agree that the examples that come with DevC++ should work with a default installation.
I think I'm gonna read that post you were linking now =)