cxtable-devel — xTable Developer Mailing List

Re: [Cxtable-devel] RE:p2p, the next generation [small reply]

[Borne Goodman-M. <bm...@eg...>]

I am indeed not 100% clear on where cxtable's current implementation
exists within the space of my vision, which was developed out of
self-introspection, and a lot of experience, and an understanding (I
think) of the optimal mechanism for information sharing / communication.

I have always love the concept of having systems communicate with each
other over the network, in much the way that humans do in the physical
world.  I think that improvements can be made, technologically, to the
way we traditionally communicate, and this vision is the beginning down
that path for me (and whomever might like to come with me).

I do understand, basically, how the cxtable system currently works, from
a networking perspective, and I do feel there is a sizable amount of
re-work to be done to make the changes I suggested to it.  So much work
in fact, especially in the case of sticking in security, that it might
be faster to start from scratch, but this is not a certainty at this
point.  cxtable is a system that you developed from the ground up (with
some help here and there) and it is a fairly large derivation from the
way things work now, which is why I would understand if you aren't
interested in my ideas and would rather pursue your own.

It is rare that people can work together with common purpose / vision to
develop a great piece of software, and I find my ideas are usually a bit
lofty for a lot of people to consider reasonable, and they would rather
write something very particular (like a shared data space /
"grapevine").

I do believe, after a summary look at the "grapevine" project, that our
thoughts are a bit closer, than that of grapevine, though I think that
kind of capability could easily be put into the framework I have in
mind.

I shall respond to your other email, with more detailed answers to your
questions about my initial email, to better describe what my concepts of
a client / server / service truly represent and I will also try to give
some examples of it's usage to more easily put the components in their
correct context.

--bjgm

On Wed, 2002-01-02 at 15:51, Williams, David wrote:
> Larger one to follow, after I've better read through your thoughts...
> 
> This reply is mainly to ask a few questions, which might or might not be self-serving... 
> 
> Are you clear on where cxtable sits with relation to this vision?  In other words, do these visions come from self-introspection with relation to the internet itself, or with some digging about in my code, a mixture?
> 
> I ask this only to see whether you have come up with an assessment of how cxtable accomplishes p2p...  I also ask it because there is another project that is working toward peer-to-peer that I have been impressed with.... They are primarily looking to create a persistent file storage network across anonymous peer-to-peer...  It is grapevine.sourceforge.net...
> 
> I almost reticently point you at it, as Stephen and I are approaching two different goals, and I am unsure of whether or not his is closer to yours than mine... 
> 
> Primarily, I am wondering, what adaptation would be required, on my part...  I assume, in many ways, everything after the "line" in your message will explain that to me..so I will read it, and reply again...
> 
> Either way, your help has been valuable to me...  (Again... I hope that by pointing you toward Grapevine- a class act, I have not found you a new project to replace your participation in mine...  but Stephen, et al, of the Grapevine project are way deserving of help, as well..)
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:38 PM
> To: cxt...@li...
> Subject: [Cxtable-devel] p2p, the next generation.
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> As I mentioned to you, my interest in the cxtable project is mainly due
> to my feelings about the proper direction for applications / knowledge
> sharing in the future, and that the next step is to create a system
> which is neither purely p2p nor purely client/server.
> 
> I have spent a bit of time in the last few days thinking about exactly
> what this system should look / act like, and would like to explain this,
> and do one of two things with this knowledge, based on your feelings.
> 
> 1) Change cxtable to adapt to a slightly different vision, which
> included the concepts I am going to present, at which point I will drop
> my work on OMInit.
> 
> 2) Continue to work om OMInit and evolve it to also support the concepts
> which I am going to present, and continue to give information /
> assistance on cxtable when possible.
> 
> The following concepts are rough, and certainly open to discussion /
> evolution, but I think are a basis for an excellent system which should
> be enjoyed greatly by many.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The main weakness, in my observation, of a pure p2p system, is that to
> gain access to particular data, the peer you want to communicate with
> needs to be available.  Some systems have gotten around single peer
> failure by persisting the data to all peers, but this is a horrible disk
> (and bandwidth) hog.  The solution is the following design, where each
> piece of software can work as a client or a server.  Each server would
> have a set of available "services".  The service and it's associated
> data can be linked to a service on another "peer" to create redundancy
> in case of failure.  One service is the "master" and the other is a
> "backup".  There can be an unlimited number of backups for a particular
> service, but obviously as that number increases so does the bandwidth
> usage to keep the backups up-to-date.
> 
> Think of a service in the current cxtable context as a plug-in.
> 
> TheServer
> ---------
> A system only act's as a server if it has a service (in either master or
> backup mode) running.  Each service can use either TCP or UDP as it's
> transport mechanism, and the server is in charge of doing the transport
> listening, and hands off the connections to the service.
> 
> The server should also support persistence of service data, and also
> service "backup" monitoring / updating.  This should make writing new
> services / plug-in's as simple as possible.
> 
> TheService
> ----------
> The service would get the data from clients (as either byte arrays,
> string arrays, or java objects (based on xml parsing)) through the
> server, and handle it appropriately.  They would be able to persist data
> by making calls into the server which it is wrapped in, and if there are
> "backup" services for this service, it's data is sent to those
> automatically to be persisted.
> 
> TheClient
> ---------
> The client would initially discover all services it is interested in
> (see ServiceDiscovery) and a list of "master" services (and the server
> they are connected to) is shown to the user.  The User can then choose
> to connect to a particular service.  There would be client software
> related to each service, and it would even be possible to have software
> which could handle communication to more than one type of service.  The
> client "plug-in" would register itself with the client, and if there was
> more than one client which could connect to a particular service, that
> list would come up for the user to choose which one they wanted to use
> (a default could be set so the list wouldn't come up).
> 
> 
> ServiceDiscovery
> ----------------
> There would be multiple modes of service discovery, all of which can be
> configured / enabled / disabled.  One would be a multicast message sent
> to the local network.  Each Server hearing the message would respond
> with a list of it's available services.
> 
> A client could have a set of IP addresses which it would connect to via
> a proprietary protocol to determine the available services.  This would
> be used if the server / services are not on the local network.
> 
> A set of URLs could be scanned, using a technique very much like is in
> place for cxtable now, to determine a set of IP addresses which can be
> connected to and asked about available services.
> 
> Persistence
> -----------
> There would be a generic set of methods to persist data.  These would
> link into a set of implementations, each of which would have a name
> associated to it.  This would allow multiple persistence schemes to be
> used simultaneously.  For example, a service could persist data to an
> implementation called "cxtable.persist.mysql.chess" which would be
> linked into a Class which uses JDBC to communicate to a MySQL database,
> and the chess database within MySQL.  In addition to JDBC
> implementations, an XML implementation and flat file implementation
> should be done at a minimum.
> 
> These would be implemented through an interface, so 3rd parties could
> implement alternative persistence schemes.
> 
> 
> Security / Service Ownership
> ----------------------------
> In the long run, I would suggest the use of a Public / Private Key
> system which encrypts all communication between all of the objects in
> the architecture.  Initially this will not be implemented, but the
> methods must be in place to do this so that it is designed from the
> beginning to support this, rather than retro-fitting it in after the
> initial implementation.
> 
> Peers would, through some mechanism, exchange public keys.  Each public
> key would be related to a particular user name.  A password will be
> generated by the user, encrypted, and sent to the peer.  The password
> will be checked against the peer's data (which is encrypted locally) to
> determine authentication.
> 
> All data (including discovery messages) will be encrypted, so that only
> a server can determine, based on the user's identity, what services are
> available to them.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I don't believe I have seen a system which supports all (or even half)
> of the functionality which I have mentioned in this email, and I don't
> consider it horribly outrageous that we may attempt to do this.  I will
> end up attempting to do this regardless, but another mind to bounce
> things off of, as you know, is always a nice thing. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 

[Cxtable-devel] A longer reply to "p2p, the next generation"

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Borne-

OK.... 

I am assuming, then, that a Server is a persistent thing...?  It is always available, or this is incorrect?  Either way.... I would make this akin to my mind to the current Registry server process (which also handles relay communications when direct, and peer-enable, both fail..)..  It could handle many other processes as well..but at this time, does only those two...  

The Service..  These services, run, then, on the Server, and cache to their backup?  Or did I miss this point?  

The Client...  This client has a list of services it can connect to... This is definitely a planned but lacking feature for cxtable.  Cxtable assumes that everyone connected to it wishes to connect to one another... the persistent connection between each peer eventually allows the runner of the Registry server to pull down that server process, and have a set of X people connected with one another, but closed off to the rest of the 'network'..

Service Discovery...
URL-scanning is good.  I personally like the PHP-piece, as the act of registering a server for the availability of use to clients can be done with a URL scan as well..  Either way...this basic idea does seem to be in line with how I do it (or hope I do)

Persistence...
I have given no thought to persistence.  These ideas seem valuable, for sure..

Security/Service Ownership..
Contrary to what the code would tell you.. I have given thought to security...  Relating to public keys...  these keys generally can be published anywhere (hence their name) and could be provided along with the peers other information (IP, port, etc..), unless your intention is to route all communicae through a Server, and then, if course, only the server would need to know it...  

---------------------------------------

Each of the above points has merit with relation to the project I currently have, and at the same time..  I pause... as there are one or two points that I am unsure of..

Is the goal of the p2p to have places that relay which are persistent?  Because this vision does give way to a couple of weaknesses...  One of these weaknesses is that if they can pin down where you are, and where you'll always be...  Then they can shut you down....  The other is the need for a certain type of cash-flow to support the persistent servers... 

However, as I continue to read through this, I am of the belief that the servers you speak of could be EITHER a persistent server in the traditional sense, OR a peer-type server that is fairly transient...  

Change is not a bad thing...and this is definitely the type of thing I set myself up for by inviting new creative blood to come look, to come help....

I think that the changes you propose are worth pursuing.  I think that certain services, under the new modified vision, would allow for the "Intranet over the internet" concept to remain, and at the same time widen the vision to incorporate many other takes..

This is all assuming that you haven't decided to ditch me for Grapevine ;-)

~Dave


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

[Cxtable-devel] RE:p2p, the next generation [small reply]

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Larger one to follow, after I've better read through your thoughts...

This reply is mainly to ask a few questions, which might or might not be self-serving... 

Are you clear on where cxtable sits with relation to this vision?  In other words, do these visions come from self-introspection with relation to the internet itself, or with some digging about in my code, a mixture?

I ask this only to see whether you have come up with an assessment of how cxtable accomplishes p2p...  I also ask it because there is another project that is working toward peer-to-peer that I have been impressed with.... They are primarily looking to create a persistent file storage network across anonymous peer-to-peer...  It is grapevine.sourceforge.net...

I almost reticently point you at it, as Stephen and I are approaching two different goals, and I am unsure of whether or not his is closer to yours than mine... 

Primarily, I am wondering, what adaptation would be required, on my part...  I assume, in many ways, everything after the "line" in your message will explain that to me..so I will read it, and reply again...

Either way, your help has been valuable to me...  (Again... I hope that by pointing you toward Grapevine- a class act, I have not found you a new project to replace your participation in mine...  but Stephen, et al, of the Grapevine project are way deserving of help, as well..)

~Dave



David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:38 PM
To: cxt...@li...
Subject: [Cxtable-devel] p2p, the next generation.


Greetings,

As I mentioned to you, my interest in the cxtable project is mainly due
to my feelings about the proper direction for applications / knowledge
sharing in the future, and that the next step is to create a system
which is neither purely p2p nor purely client/server.

I have spent a bit of time in the last few days thinking about exactly
what this system should look / act like, and would like to explain this,
and do one of two things with this knowledge, based on your feelings.

1) Change cxtable to adapt to a slightly different vision, which
included the concepts I am going to present, at which point I will drop
my work on OMInit.

2) Continue to work om OMInit and evolve it to also support the concepts
which I am going to present, and continue to give information /
assistance on cxtable when possible.

The following concepts are rough, and certainly open to discussion /
evolution, but I think are a basis for an excellent system which should
be enjoyed greatly by many.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main weakness, in my observation, of a pure p2p system, is that to
gain access to particular data, the peer you want to communicate with
needs to be available.  Some systems have gotten around single peer
failure by persisting the data to all peers, but this is a horrible disk
(and bandwidth) hog.  The solution is the following design, where each
piece of software can work as a client or a server.  Each server would
have a set of available "services".  The service and it's associated
data can be linked to a service on another "peer" to create redundancy
in case of failure.  One service is the "master" and the other is a
"backup".  There can be an unlimited number of backups for a particular
service, but obviously as that number increases so does the bandwidth
usage to keep the backups up-to-date.

Think of a service in the current cxtable context as a plug-in.

TheServer
---------
A system only act's as a server if it has a service (in either master or
backup mode) running.  Each service can use either TCP or UDP as it's
transport mechanism, and the server is in charge of doing the transport
listening, and hands off the connections to the service.

The server should also support persistence of service data, and also
service "backup" monitoring / updating.  This should make writing new
services / plug-in's as simple as possible.

TheService
----------
The service would get the data from clients (as either byte arrays,
string arrays, or java objects (based on xml parsing)) through the
server, and handle it appropriately.  They would be able to persist data
by making calls into the server which it is wrapped in, and if there are
"backup" services for this service, it's data is sent to those
automatically to be persisted.

TheClient
---------
The client would initially discover all services it is interested in
(see ServiceDiscovery) and a list of "master" services (and the server
they are connected to) is shown to the user.  The User can then choose
to connect to a particular service.  There would be client software
related to each service, and it would even be possible to have software
which could handle communication to more than one type of service.  The
client "plug-in" would register itself with the client, and if there was
more than one client which could connect to a particular service, that
list would come up for the user to choose which one they wanted to use
(a default could be set so the list wouldn't come up).


ServiceDiscovery
----------------
There would be multiple modes of service discovery, all of which can be
configured / enabled / disabled.  One would be a multicast message sent
to the local network.  Each Server hearing the message would respond
with a list of it's available services.

A client could have a set of IP addresses which it would connect to via
a proprietary protocol to determine the available services.  This would
be used if the server / services are not on the local network.

A set of URLs could be scanned, using a technique very much like is in
place for cxtable now, to determine a set of IP addresses which can be
connected to and asked about available services.

Persistence
-----------
There would be a generic set of methods to persist data.  These would
link into a set of implementations, each of which would have a name
associated to it.  This would allow multiple persistence schemes to be
used simultaneously.  For example, a service could persist data to an
implementation called "cxtable.persist.mysql.chess" which would be
linked into a Class which uses JDBC to communicate to a MySQL database,
and the chess database within MySQL.  In addition to JDBC
implementations, an XML implementation and flat file implementation
should be done at a minimum.

These would be implemented through an interface, so 3rd parties could
implement alternative persistence schemes.


Security / Service Ownership
----------------------------
In the long run, I would suggest the use of a Public / Private Key
system which encrypts all communication between all of the objects in
the architecture.  Initially this will not be implemented, but the
methods must be in place to do this so that it is designed from the
beginning to support this, rather than retro-fitting it in after the
initial implementation.

Peers would, through some mechanism, exchange public keys.  Each public
key would be related to a particular user name.  A password will be
generated by the user, encrypted, and sent to the peer.  The password
will be checked against the peer's data (which is encrypted locally) to
determine authentication.

All data (including discovery messages) will be encrypted, so that only
a server can determine, based on the user's identity, what services are
available to them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe I have seen a system which supports all (or even half)
of the functionality which I have mentioned in this email, and I don't
consider it horribly outrageous that we may attempt to do this.  I will
end up attempting to do this regardless, but another mind to bounce
things off of, as you know, is always a nice thing. 


_______________________________________________
Cxtable-devel mailing list
Cxt...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel

[Cxtable-devel] p2p, the next generation.

[Borne Goodman-M. <bm...@eg...>]

Greetings,

As I mentioned to you, my interest in the cxtable project is mainly due
to my feelings about the proper direction for applications / knowledge
sharing in the future, and that the next step is to create a system
which is neither purely p2p nor purely client/server.

I have spent a bit of time in the last few days thinking about exactly
what this system should look / act like, and would like to explain this,
and do one of two things with this knowledge, based on your feelings.

1) Change cxtable to adapt to a slightly different vision, which
included the concepts I am going to present, at which point I will drop
my work on OMInit.

2) Continue to work om OMInit and evolve it to also support the concepts
which I am going to present, and continue to give information /
assistance on cxtable when possible.

The following concepts are rough, and certainly open to discussion /
evolution, but I think are a basis for an excellent system which should
be enjoyed greatly by many.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main weakness, in my observation, of a pure p2p system, is that to
gain access to particular data, the peer you want to communicate with
needs to be available.  Some systems have gotten around single peer
failure by persisting the data to all peers, but this is a horrible disk
(and bandwidth) hog.  The solution is the following design, where each
piece of software can work as a client or a server.  Each server would
have a set of available "services".  The service and it's associated
data can be linked to a service on another "peer" to create redundancy
in case of failure.  One service is the "master" and the other is a
"backup".  There can be an unlimited number of backups for a particular
service, but obviously as that number increases so does the bandwidth
usage to keep the backups up-to-date.

Think of a service in the current cxtable context as a plug-in.

TheServer
---------
A system only act's as a server if it has a service (in either master or
backup mode) running.  Each service can use either TCP or UDP as it's
transport mechanism, and the server is in charge of doing the transport
listening, and hands off the connections to the service.

The server should also support persistence of service data, and also
service "backup" monitoring / updating.  This should make writing new
services / plug-in's as simple as possible.

TheService
----------
The service would get the data from clients (as either byte arrays,
string arrays, or java objects (based on xml parsing)) through the
server, and handle it appropriately.  They would be able to persist data
by making calls into the server which it is wrapped in, and if there are
"backup" services for this service, it's data is sent to those
automatically to be persisted.

TheClient
---------
The client would initially discover all services it is interested in
(see ServiceDiscovery) and a list of "master" services (and the server
they are connected to) is shown to the user.  The User can then choose
to connect to a particular service.  There would be client software
related to each service, and it would even be possible to have software
which could handle communication to more than one type of service.  The
client "plug-in" would register itself with the client, and if there was
more than one client which could connect to a particular service, that
list would come up for the user to choose which one they wanted to use
(a default could be set so the list wouldn't come up).


ServiceDiscovery
----------------
There would be multiple modes of service discovery, all of which can be
configured / enabled / disabled.  One would be a multicast message sent
to the local network.  Each Server hearing the message would respond
with a list of it's available services.

A client could have a set of IP addresses which it would connect to via
a proprietary protocol to determine the available services.  This would
be used if the server / services are not on the local network.

A set of URLs could be scanned, using a technique very much like is in
place for cxtable now, to determine a set of IP addresses which can be
connected to and asked about available services.

Persistence
-----------
There would be a generic set of methods to persist data.  These would
link into a set of implementations, each of which would have a name
associated to it.  This would allow multiple persistence schemes to be
used simultaneously.  For example, a service could persist data to an
implementation called "cxtable.persist.mysql.chess" which would be
linked into a Class which uses JDBC to communicate to a MySQL database,
and the chess database within MySQL.  In addition to JDBC
implementations, an XML implementation and flat file implementation
should be done at a minimum.

These would be implemented through an interface, so 3rd parties could
implement alternative persistence schemes.


Security / Service Ownership
----------------------------
In the long run, I would suggest the use of a Public / Private Key
system which encrypts all communication between all of the objects in
the architecture.  Initially this will not be implemented, but the
methods must be in place to do this so that it is designed from the
beginning to support this, rather than retro-fitting it in after the
initial implementation.

Peers would, through some mechanism, exchange public keys.  Each public
key would be related to a particular user name.  A password will be
generated by the user, encrypted, and sent to the peer.  The password
will be checked against the peer's data (which is encrypted locally) to
determine authentication.

All data (including discovery messages) will be encrypted, so that only
a server can determine, based on the user's identity, what services are
available to them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe I have seen a system which supports all (or even half)
of the functionality which I have mentioned in this email, and I don't
consider it horribly outrageous that we may attempt to do this.  I will
end up attempting to do this regardless, but another mind to bounce
things off of, as you know, is always a nice thing. 

[Cxtable-devel] Happy New Year...

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Well, Borne...It looks like I managed to get my feet wet in CVS without splashing mud all over everything you had done before...

(Fishing for compliments...)

Anyway... Now, I suppose, it is time to set up the packages and imports and see if I can get the whole bugger to compile that way...

Have you had a chance to look at the architectural basis of the comm platform?  Are there any issues and or questions that you have for me?

Thanks,,
Dave


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

[Cxtable-devel] Quick CVS help for the novice...

[David S. W. <xi...@pr...>]

How does one create a CVS repository for a project that doesn't yet have
one?

Thanks,
Dave


--
~Dave
xi...@pr...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
Language<

 |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|

"He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
 deserves neither freedom, nor security"
  -Benjamin Franklin

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
it's a wonder I can think at all..."
  -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"

[Cxtable-devel] OK... added files to "cxtable" dir

[David S. W. <xi...@pr...>]

And removed all files from the root directory that did not belong
there..

so..all of the non-packaged and/or base packaged items are at
cxtable/src/cxtable

Everything at cxtable/ is gone, save those original directories....

And there is NO way to remove the CoreComm directory, huh?

And I noticed you can't remove *.java, that'd be too easy (and
dangerous?)..

How do I make notes


--
~Dave
xi...@pr...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
Language<

 |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|

"He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
 deserves neither freedom, nor security"
  -Benjamin Franklin

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
it's a wonder I can think at all..."
  -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"

[Cxtable-devel] Hey Borne....

[David S. W. <xi...@pr...>]

I am in the process of setting up Cygwin on my XP box...and then I'll
update my local copy of the tree...then I'll delete the Chess files...

Do you do them one by one?


--
~Dave
xi...@pr...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
Language<

 |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|

"He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
 deserves neither freedom, nor security"
  -Benjamin Franklin

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
it's a wonder I can think at all..."
  -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"

[Cxtable-devel] A co-conspirator...

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Who had been involved in some of the design decisions of the Chess game did some work on planning TournoChess....  and many of the Chess classes changed to support a cleaner access for both games...

I think the cleanest thing to do with CVS might be to remove the Chess game entirely at this point, and add it back when the changes are done...  I couldn't seem to get Cygwin working on my parents' computer...or I would have focused more on the core platform... But I knew better than to change things in that way without it being linked to CVS...

In some ways..I wish CVS had a PHP interface (maybe it could ??) or something that allowed for administrative tasks such as ..

1- Remove and hold (keep file in memory or in a swap directory)
2- Add from swap directory to new directory...

But anyway...all of that being put aside... I think that removing the Chess-related classes might be the best action...as to put them in their own directory would require removing them anyway...  

Another reason why I have not dug in deep is that I need a second pair of eyes to LOOK at the infrastructure...  Personally, I think it is _the shit_...because I wrote it... ;-)

((There are times, especially when I've taken a 2 week break, that I come back and say "What the hell were you doing here...this is shit..it could be written better.."... but it seems that the more I focus on my own code, the less I can see wrong with it...))

~Dave



David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

[Cxtable-devel] Fwd: Emailing: xTableTests

[David W. <xi...@ya...>]

Borne-

Here's the java piece that I wrote to test that PHP
thing on the cxtable.sourceforge.com site..

And, incidentally...do you have any ideas for what
type of content we should put on the website?

The type that will, once the link is given out, make
people notice..I suppose...

Should we than back-burner that process (someone else
would be doing it, so it wouldn't steal my
time-resources...) to solidify the code-base first?

~Dave



Note: forwarded message attached.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

[Cxtable-devel] Well...I had a good (but unproductive) holiday...

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

How is yours going, Borne?


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

RE: [Cxtable-devel] The "Other Projects" thing, one more unmentio ned...

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Scratch that...

See what happens when you don't use something for awhile??

try:

http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?ADD:127.0.01:8080:BornesRegistry

THEN

http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?GET:BornesRegistry

THEN

http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?REM:BornesRegistry
(this last one is for the server to remove itself..)

Sometimes, with caching browsers, it doesn't show..although I wrote a little java snippet that does it, and it happens immediately with that..

((If you look at the above..I screwed up... ;-)  It is IP:PORT:NAME ..not NAME:IP:PORT ))

Dave



David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:33 PM
To: Williams, David
Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] The "Other Projects" thing, one more
unmentioned...


The ADD link worked ok, but the GET didn't seem to do anything.

On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 17:05, Williams, David wrote:
> And, of course, there needs to be some logic put in place for using this PHP piece on a central server for 'publishing' rather than the traditional FTP way...
> 
> What this PHP piece would do is as follows..
> 
> RegistryServer
> 1- create ServSocket
> 2- Read the URL ("cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?ADD:BillyBob:111.11.11.111:1020")
> 3- Check to make sure add went OK (response from the registry.php is a tagged message)...
> 4- Listen for && process connects and broadcasting of who is on to who is on...
> 
> The above will have totally eliminated the need for a group to have a 'free web page' of their own w/ FTP access...  And thus eliminated the pure dependency on Peter van der Linden and Steve Lynch's "Linlyn"...
> 
> 
> Peers wanting to connect to the BillyBob Registry server
> 
> 1- create ServSocket (as normally)
> 2- Read the URL("cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?GET:Billybob")
> 3- process response for server's IP location and port.
> 4- proceed as normally.
> 
> If a user has a PHP server on their website, great, they can change it to their website.  OTHERWISE, a group wanting to use it under the name "CyberDragonMomma" would only have to have their peers reading for GET:CyberDragonMomma off of the cxtable web page, and the Registry server set to ADD:CyberDragonMomma:{IP}:{PORT}
> 
> 
> If you look at the project members on SourceForge (Bret (aka Blancowulfe) is a close friend who occasionally beta-tests...when we can/.... he has a majorly screwed up ISP that firewalls his connection {Juno} and therefore has been more help checking the Peer-Enable piece than the standard connection...   The other person..  Bryan Faseman... he really isn't on the project anymore...  he wrote "registry.php v1.1" for me (and v1.0 as well ;-) )...  He will maintain it if there are broader requirements/uses for it...
> 
> But try this... try going to the following links.
> 
> http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?ADD:BornesRegistry:127.0.0.1:8080
> 
> Then, go to the following link:
> http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?GET:BornesRegistry
> 
> THEN, go to the following link:
> http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?REM:BornesRegistry
> 
> 
> (I'm pretty sure REM is for remove...)
> 
> Anyway...he did fairly well writing it... (He said "I'm not a PHP Whiz...but I can give it a whack")...  and I think I probably could have written it too, but not any better, and it would have taken me away from the chief and core work on the project...
> 
> I just hope he's not upset that I haven't put it to use yet..
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 

RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..[continued]

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Incidentally..I have already begun (in my spare time at lunch here at work) retrofitting the xChessGamex to be xTournoChess....  I think I can have the plugin ready to be "plugged" (that is, functioning, and simply needing an interface to implement and a little tweaking) with a day or two's worth of work...  After a morning of hammering out manufacturer SKUs for software, something like the 4-player chess thing is therapeutic...and hunting down  bugs among printouts from the night before's test sometimes simply cannot even be approached during the hour I have...


RE: The multi-user plugin, though...  Do you think that having a separate IP/Port for a "plugin-server" is good?  Or do you think that piggybacking off of the existing p2p connection is better... I really do favor #2...but I am wondering what you think..

~Dave

PS-How do I crack the firewall issue?  It is important...but I, for the life of me, cannot figure it out... Although... as long as EVERYONE wasn't behind the firewall, it would work..  And if there were five people with one behind the firewall, it wouldn't be major... that's because the "peer-enable" thing...

I think windows defaults to port 1080 for proxy....  Or something like that (AOL-IM uses it)..  Maybe I should try it out with someone who has a firewall that they can configure..

~Dave


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:30 PM
To: Williams, David
Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..[continued]


I do think this list is the one I would use, yes.  I think it would be
enough to retro-fit one of the existing plug-ins with the new api to
determine how flexible / usable it is, rather than starting on a new
plug-in from scratch (though as the list shows, it would be the next
logical thing to do anyway, so perfect!).

On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 17:20, Williams, David wrote:
> SO...if I were to summarize...
> 
> 1- Identify any architectural holes, and fix them.
> 1a- Identify any chief architectural changes, do them.
> 2- Fix the firewall/proxy issue (??how??)
> 3- Swing-i-tate the GUI
> 4- Create Plugin API
> 5- Write the super-duper-chess-computer plugin
> 
> Would the above be your list of priorities if you were me?
> 
> (Incidentally...I don't actually see how I _could_ make a strong Plugin API w/o making a plugin that ran with it, to ensure that it worked and was not to laborious to use...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:58 PM
> To: cxt...@li...
> Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..[continued]
> 
> 
> I seem to be having some odd problems with your email not wrapping
> correctly in my responses, but I will do my best to respond to all of
> your questions / comments, and tell me if I miss anything.
> 
> It is indeed difficult, when dealing with a project that doesn't have
> any customers to drive functionality, to determine what to add next, and
> I have this same problem with my OMInit project.  The process I usually
> use is to determine what functionality I think would do the most to
> bring people to the product, and implement that first.  Once there is a
> large user base, then you have people asking you to make changes, and
> unless there is a re-factoring or other internal thing which take
> priority, you can just go down the user list of wants.
> 
> >From that perspective I think that a nice UI revamp would be of the
> highest priority.  The most important part of any program to any user is
> the UI, because that is all they understand of it.  If the UI doesn't
> look good, or doesn't react well, they won't use it.
> 
> Before you run off and start on the new UI, I also want to mention that
> any structure built on an unstable foundation is prone to fall faster
> when stress is placed on it.  If there are any lingering communication /
> architecture issues, I would suggest fixing these before anyone uses the
> code.  Once the core is stable, start adding things onto it, and if
> designed well, it shouldn't be difficult.
> 
> Most of the people I know (including myself) work from behind a firewall
> at home and / or at work.  The ability to run the program in this
> environment is VERY important.
> 
> I would then suggest the file sharing capability, as p2p file sharing
> which works well is always a great way to grab a lot of users.
> 
> The XML / DTD change would be trivial, I believe, if done in the same
> way I do it for OMinit, but older versions of the code would no longer
> work with the new code, unless we just deprecate the old mechanisms, but
> since the user base is so small, this wouldn't hurt at all right now. 
> Because of this, the change should probably be done before a large user
> base is established.
> 
> It is also very important, before a lot of people are using it, to
> finalize the Plug-In support, and development of plug-ins is not
> necessary for this.  As more and more users user the product, 3rd party
> developers will use the plug-in support to make their own, if the API is
> a nice one.  The Plug-In API is VERY important, and I can equate it with
> the gaming environment on Windows.  The reason for a high percentage of
> Windows systems is because that is the only environment you can play
> most games in, and because most users run in that environment, game
> developers write code for it.  This is a cycle, and one you want to
> build for the product.  Write a great API for plug-ins and get a decent
> user base, and developers will write programs for it, and if they are
> good, users will user your program only because that plug-in is
> available.  This is cyclical and the beginning of it requires only
> plug-in support, and a decent user base.  I feel in this paragraph I at
> least matched your rambling and have shown that I can do it myself :).
> 
> Due to the above statement, I think the need for additional plug-ins to
> be written should be on the bottom of the list of things to do, even
> though they sound like cool ones, and with the above finished, can be
> accomplished next.
> 
> I am not easily scared, either by the size of a project, of the lack of
> size of a project, as each idea, with work, will naturally become of a
> proper size in respect to it's worth (given enough time).
> 
> I have found myself recently (when not at work) preoccupied with my own
> OMInit project, and because of some of the abilities it has, and some of
> the new JDK 1.4 APIs I want to play with, I have been forced to work on
> that more rather than on this.  I find the 2 spaces very interesting,
> that of a server that can handle a huge amount of traffic for a single
> reason, and large number of peers which can also handle a huge amount of
> traffic, but in a different way and for multiple purposes.  
> 
> I should, sooner rather than later, look more closely at the current
> cxtable architecture to validate that it is a solid foundation to more
> forward upon, try to pinpoint some of it's weaker spots, and perhaps
> even strengthen / replace them myself.  I have a few more changes to
> make to OMInit before the initial chatting capabilities are code
> complete and I shall halt, for a time, on that project, so that I can
> look more at this one.
> 
> Most of my work in the past has been in the same space as the OMInit
> project, and that is handling lots of client's access to a set of
> limited resources.  I like cxtable mostly because it is a similar
> problem, and just a different approach at a solution.  I have rather
> grandiose dreams myself, and would like to find that perfect medium
> between peer to peer computing and client / server computing and need a
> p2p environment to work in to advance that dream.
> 
> You are very welcome, and thank you,
> 
> --bjgm 
> 
> On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 15:34, Williams, David wrote:
> > Woops..hit "Send" too early on that one...
> > 
> > I am at an interesting state in this development...  I have a bunch of little and big unfinished cxtable projects...  And I can't decide which to do..
> > 
> > Naturally...the CVSing of the code has to be complete...and the associated packaging issues...  But after that, I am not sure where I had wanted to go...(FIRST, most important outstanding cxtable project)
> > 
> > The only "plugins" that I currently have thought of are game related... and that is not the only exclusive capability of such a network....  However... I am needing to come to grips with non-global multi-"user" plugins..(A SECOND, importance arguable either way, outstanding cxtable project).
> > 
> > That is, a plugin that does not exist for every person from the get-go (non-global) yet would involve more than a simple peer-to-peer (such as Chess).
> > 
> > As far as that is concerned, two plugins come to mind.  A Poker game, and a new game called xTournoChess, which is a 16 X 16 board with 4 Chess players instead of two, one on each side of the board...
> > 
> > The idea, then, is implementing the plugin so that either one of two things happens.. -1- There is a plugin-server process running on a machine that mediates between the various clients involved, and runs the plugin.. Thereby requiring a new connection to that server-process from each of the peers involved....OR -2- The initiator of the plugin runs the plugin-manager piece, and all of the communication occurs through the initial p2p connections....
> > 
> > Does the above make sense?  I first thought of -1-, but gravitate heavily now toward -2-...  Because, given a set of people (called A,B,C,D,E)...  There are two connections between each, and these are readily able to accept messages... tagging the message as "<PLUG><plugname-manager>" instead of "<PLUG><plugname>" would allow the manager piece access to the instructions, which it could then propogate to the involved parties...
> > 
> > This would allow the plugin "logic" to be executed once, and the appropriate moves/instructions to be propogated to the 'screens' or other implementation of the plugin elsewhere...
> > 
> > 
> > That is one among many of the cxtable projects outstanding... yes...it is game-related as far as implementation, but it would allow the infrastructure to be built for multiple-peer plugins that would extend beyond the "tournochess"...
> > 
> > Other cxtable projects (a THIRD, and equally arguable either way as far as importance is concerned, outstanding cxtable project) are the potential DTD-ing of the messaging, so that a robust parser can be used to process the XML that is passing between the peers/etc...  This is also a potentially important project...although cosmetically from the outside it would not reflect much difference (ideally ;-) ) it would greatly impact certain scalability issues in the future...
> > 
> > Another piece (a FOURTH) is a file-sharing (plugin?) piece... This could be run as a "download-server" on each peer, at a dynamically assigned port...  The ftp-client could be configured to read to that port, create a data sock, and download... I have a piece of software (currently being used by the Registry Server to publish itself) called Linlyn that I already modified as xDownloadLinlyn, with an interface xDownloadListener...  Multi-file downloads would create an instance of xDownloadLinlyn, which would call the xDownloadListener's method to notify it (filename,contents)... Either way...the concept of file-sharing to be plugged in is another work...
> > 
> > Yet another (FIFTH, and potentially of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the Swing conversion.  'nuff said.
> > 
> > Still another (SIXTH, and also potentally of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the refining of the GUI (swing or not) and the user processes so that they are more friendly, and more automated... 
> > 
> > Still yet another (SEVENTH, and also potentially of equal importance to CVS, swing and GUI-refine) is the setting up for behind configurable proxies/firewalls.  
> > 
> > 
> > I hope I neither scare you off from the huge set of projects I embark upon, nor scare you off from the still potentially limited list I myself can come up with...
> > 
> > When I advertised for help, I didn't know what to expect... I had dreams for this project...and some of them have come to fruition...and I have learned a great deal as a result of simply working on the project...  You seem to wish for your role to be that of mentor, and that is perfectly acceptable to me.... ANY level of involvement is great... Code, help organize, dream, spark new ideas...whatever...  The reason (mentioned in the help-wanted ad but re-iterated here for clarity) I wanted another developer is more for vision and less for individual lines of code...  You certainly have exceeded all of my expectations as far as a team member is concerned...
> > 
> > One thing I might or might not have already demonstrated is my ability to ramble...
> > 
> > If I hadn't prior to this email, I'm sure I did with this verbose email..
> > 
> > Maybe I could ask you a semi-frank question...  What is that you saw in the project that made you want to work on it..?  ((There are no bad answers ;-))
> > 
> > Do you have any thoughts on the above projects?  Do you have any more to add that you think might be of more importance.. (All opinions weigh heavily here)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Dave
> > 
> > David Scott Williams
> > Computer Associates
> > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > Islandia, New York  11749
> > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > wi...@ca...
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > Cxt...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel

[Cxtable-devel] The "Other Projects" thing, one more unmentioned...

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

And, of course, there needs to be some logic put in place for using this PHP piece on a central server for 'publishing' rather than the traditional FTP way...

What this PHP piece would do is as follows..

RegistryServer
1- create ServSocket
2- Read the URL ("cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?ADD:BillyBob:111.11.11.111:1020")
3- Check to make sure add went OK (response from the registry.php is a tagged message)...
4- Listen for && process connects and broadcasting of who is on to who is on...

The above will have totally eliminated the need for a group to have a 'free web page' of their own w/ FTP access...  And thus eliminated the pure dependency on Peter van der Linden and Steve Lynch's "Linlyn"...


Peers wanting to connect to the BillyBob Registry server

1- create ServSocket (as normally)
2- Read the URL("cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?GET:Billybob")
3- process response for server's IP location and port.
4- proceed as normally.

If a user has a PHP server on their website, great, they can change it to their website.  OTHERWISE, a group wanting to use it under the name "CyberDragonMomma" would only have to have their peers reading for GET:CyberDragonMomma off of the cxtable web page, and the Registry server set to ADD:CyberDragonMomma:{IP}:{PORT}


If you look at the project members on SourceForge (Bret (aka Blancowulfe) is a close friend who occasionally beta-tests...when we can/.... he has a majorly screwed up ISP that firewalls his connection {Juno} and therefore has been more help checking the Peer-Enable piece than the standard connection...   The other person..  Bryan Faseman... he really isn't on the project anymore...  he wrote "registry.php v1.1" for me (and v1.0 as well ;-) )...  He will maintain it if there are broader requirements/uses for it...

But try this... try going to the following links.

http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?ADD:BornesRegistry:127.0.0.1:8080

Then, go to the following link:
http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?GET:BornesRegistry

THEN, go to the following link:
http://cxtable.sourceforge.net/registry.php?REM:BornesRegistry


(I'm pretty sure REM is for remove...)

Anyway...he did fairly well writing it... (He said "I'm not a PHP Whiz...but I can give it a whack")...  and I think I probably could have written it too, but not any better, and it would have taken me away from the chief and core work on the project...

I just hope he's not upset that I haven't put it to use yet..

~Dave



David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..[continued]

[Borne Goodman-M. <bm...@eg...>]

I seem to be having some odd problems with your email not wrapping
correctly in my responses, but I will do my best to respond to all of
your questions / comments, and tell me if I miss anything.

It is indeed difficult, when dealing with a project that doesn't have
any customers to drive functionality, to determine what to add next, and
I have this same problem with my OMInit project.  The process I usually
use is to determine what functionality I think would do the most to
bring people to the product, and implement that first.  Once there is a
large user base, then you have people asking you to make changes, and
unless there is a re-factoring or other internal thing which take
priority, you can just go down the user list of wants.

From that perspective I think that a nice UI revamp would be of the
highest priority.  The most important part of any program to any user is
the UI, because that is all they understand of it.  If the UI doesn't
look good, or doesn't react well, they won't use it.

Before you run off and start on the new UI, I also want to mention that
any structure built on an unstable foundation is prone to fall faster
when stress is placed on it.  If there are any lingering communication /
architecture issues, I would suggest fixing these before anyone uses the
code.  Once the core is stable, start adding things onto it, and if
designed well, it shouldn't be difficult.

Most of the people I know (including myself) work from behind a firewall
at home and / or at work.  The ability to run the program in this
environment is VERY important.

I would then suggest the file sharing capability, as p2p file sharing
which works well is always a great way to grab a lot of users.

The XML / DTD change would be trivial, I believe, if done in the same
way I do it for OMinit, but older versions of the code would no longer
work with the new code, unless we just deprecate the old mechanisms, but
since the user base is so small, this wouldn't hurt at all right now. 
Because of this, the change should probably be done before a large user
base is established.

It is also very important, before a lot of people are using it, to
finalize the Plug-In support, and development of plug-ins is not
necessary for this.  As more and more users user the product, 3rd party
developers will use the plug-in support to make their own, if the API is
a nice one.  The Plug-In API is VERY important, and I can equate it with
the gaming environment on Windows.  The reason for a high percentage of
Windows systems is because that is the only environment you can play
most games in, and because most users run in that environment, game
developers write code for it.  This is a cycle, and one you want to
build for the product.  Write a great API for plug-ins and get a decent
user base, and developers will write programs for it, and if they are
good, users will user your program only because that plug-in is
available.  This is cyclical and the beginning of it requires only
plug-in support, and a decent user base.  I feel in this paragraph I at
least matched your rambling and have shown that I can do it myself :).

Due to the above statement, I think the need for additional plug-ins to
be written should be on the bottom of the list of things to do, even
though they sound like cool ones, and with the above finished, can be
accomplished next.

I am not easily scared, either by the size of a project, of the lack of
size of a project, as each idea, with work, will naturally become of a
proper size in respect to it's worth (given enough time).

I have found myself recently (when not at work) preoccupied with my own
OMInit project, and because of some of the abilities it has, and some of
the new JDK 1.4 APIs I want to play with, I have been forced to work on
that more rather than on this.  I find the 2 spaces very interesting,
that of a server that can handle a huge amount of traffic for a single
reason, and large number of peers which can also handle a huge amount of
traffic, but in a different way and for multiple purposes.  

I should, sooner rather than later, look more closely at the current
cxtable architecture to validate that it is a solid foundation to more
forward upon, try to pinpoint some of it's weaker spots, and perhaps
even strengthen / replace them myself.  I have a few more changes to
make to OMInit before the initial chatting capabilities are code
complete and I shall halt, for a time, on that project, so that I can
look more at this one.

Most of my work in the past has been in the same space as the OMInit
project, and that is handling lots of client's access to a set of
limited resources.  I like cxtable mostly because it is a similar
problem, and just a different approach at a solution.  I have rather
grandiose dreams myself, and would like to find that perfect medium
between peer to peer computing and client / server computing and need a
p2p environment to work in to advance that dream.

You are very welcome, and thank you,

--bjgm 

On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 15:34, Williams, David wrote:
> Woops..hit "Send" too early on that one...
> 
> I am at an interesting state in this development...  I have a bunch of little and big unfinished cxtable projects...  And I can't decide which to do..
> 
> Naturally...the CVSing of the code has to be complete...and the associated packaging issues...  But after that, I am not sure where I had wanted to go...(FIRST, most important outstanding cxtable project)
> 
> The only "plugins" that I currently have thought of are game related... and that is not the only exclusive capability of such a network....  However... I am needing to come to grips with non-global multi-"user" plugins..(A SECOND, importance arguable either way, outstanding cxtable project).
> 
> That is, a plugin that does not exist for every person from the get-go (non-global) yet would involve more than a simple peer-to-peer (such as Chess).
> 
> As far as that is concerned, two plugins come to mind.  A Poker game, and a new game called xTournoChess, which is a 16 X 16 board with 4 Chess players instead of two, one on each side of the board...
> 
> The idea, then, is implementing the plugin so that either one of two things happens.. -1- There is a plugin-server process running on a machine that mediates between the various clients involved, and runs the plugin.. Thereby requiring a new connection to that server-process from each of the peers involved....OR -2- The initiator of the plugin runs the plugin-manager piece, and all of the communication occurs through the initial p2p connections....
> 
> Does the above make sense?  I first thought of -1-, but gravitate heavily now toward -2-...  Because, given a set of people (called A,B,C,D,E)...  There are two connections between each, and these are readily able to accept messages... tagging the message as "<PLUG><plugname-manager>" instead of "<PLUG><plugname>" would allow the manager piece access to the instructions, which it could then propogate to the involved parties...
> 
> This would allow the plugin "logic" to be executed once, and the appropriate moves/instructions to be propogated to the 'screens' or other implementation of the plugin elsewhere...
> 
> 
> That is one among many of the cxtable projects outstanding... yes...it is game-related as far as implementation, but it would allow the infrastructure to be built for multiple-peer plugins that would extend beyond the "tournochess"...
> 
> Other cxtable projects (a THIRD, and equally arguable either way as far as importance is concerned, outstanding cxtable project) are the potential DTD-ing of the messaging, so that a robust parser can be used to process the XML that is passing between the peers/etc...  This is also a potentially important project...although cosmetically from the outside it would not reflect much difference (ideally ;-) ) it would greatly impact certain scalability issues in the future...
> 
> Another piece (a FOURTH) is a file-sharing (plugin?) piece... This could be run as a "download-server" on each peer, at a dynamically assigned port...  The ftp-client could be configured to read to that port, create a data sock, and download... I have a piece of software (currently being used by the Registry Server to publish itself) called Linlyn that I already modified as xDownloadLinlyn, with an interface xDownloadListener...  Multi-file downloads would create an instance of xDownloadLinlyn, which would call the xDownloadListener's method to notify it (filename,contents)... Either way...the concept of file-sharing to be plugged in is another work...
> 
> Yet another (FIFTH, and potentially of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the Swing conversion.  'nuff said.
> 
> Still another (SIXTH, and also potentally of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the refining of the GUI (swing or not) and the user processes so that they are more friendly, and more automated... 
> 
> Still yet another (SEVENTH, and also potentially of equal importance to CVS, swing and GUI-refine) is the setting up for behind configurable proxies/firewalls.  
> 
> 
> I hope I neither scare you off from the huge set of projects I embark upon, nor scare you off from the still potentially limited list I myself can come up with...
> 
> When I advertised for help, I didn't know what to expect... I had dreams for this project...and some of them have come to fruition...and I have learned a great deal as a result of simply working on the project...  You seem to wish for your role to be that of mentor, and that is perfectly acceptable to me.... ANY level of involvement is great... Code, help organize, dream, spark new ideas...whatever...  The reason (mentioned in the help-wanted ad but re-iterated here for clarity) I wanted another developer is more for vision and less for individual lines of code...  You certainly have exceeded all of my expectations as far as a team member is concerned...
> 
> One thing I might or might not have already demonstrated is my ability to ramble...
> 
> If I hadn't prior to this email, I'm sure I did with this verbose email..
> 
> Maybe I could ask you a semi-frank question...  What is that you saw in the project that made you want to work on it..?  ((There are no bad answers ;-))
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on the above projects?  Do you have any more to add that you think might be of more importance.. (All opinions weigh heavily here)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 

RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..[continued]

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Woops..hit "Send" too early on that one...

I am at an interesting state in this development...  I have a bunch of little and big unfinished cxtable projects...  And I can't decide which to do..

Naturally...the CVSing of the code has to be complete...and the associated packaging issues...  But after that, I am not sure where I had wanted to go...(FIRST, most important outstanding cxtable project)

The only "plugins" that I currently have thought of are game related... and that is not the only exclusive capability of such a network....  However... I am needing to come to grips with non-global multi-"user" plugins..(A SECOND, importance arguable either way, outstanding cxtable project).

That is, a plugin that does not exist for every person from the get-go (non-global) yet would involve more than a simple peer-to-peer (such as Chess).

As far as that is concerned, two plugins come to mind.  A Poker game, and a new game called xTournoChess, which is a 16 X 16 board with 4 Chess players instead of two, one on each side of the board...

The idea, then, is implementing the plugin so that either one of two things happens.. -1- There is a plugin-server process running on a machine that mediates between the various clients involved, and runs the plugin.. Thereby requiring a new connection to that server-process from each of the peers involved....OR -2- The initiator of the plugin runs the plugin-manager piece, and all of the communication occurs through the initial p2p connections....

Does the above make sense?  I first thought of -1-, but gravitate heavily now toward -2-...  Because, given a set of people (called A,B,C,D,E)...  There are two connections between each, and these are readily able to accept messages... tagging the message as "<PLUG><plugname-manager>" instead of "<PLUG><plugname>" would allow the manager piece access to the instructions, which it could then propogate to the involved parties...

This would allow the plugin "logic" to be executed once, and the appropriate moves/instructions to be propogated to the 'screens' or other implementation of the plugin elsewhere...


That is one among many of the cxtable projects outstanding... yes...it is game-related as far as implementation, but it would allow the infrastructure to be built for multiple-peer plugins that would extend beyond the "tournochess"...

Other cxtable projects (a THIRD, and equally arguable either way as far as importance is concerned, outstanding cxtable project) are the potential DTD-ing of the messaging, so that a robust parser can be used to process the XML that is passing between the peers/etc...  This is also a potentially important project...although cosmetically from the outside it would not reflect much difference (ideally ;-) ) it would greatly impact certain scalability issues in the future...

Another piece (a FOURTH) is a file-sharing (plugin?) piece... This could be run as a "download-server" on each peer, at a dynamically assigned port...  The ftp-client could be configured to read to that port, create a data sock, and download... I have a piece of software (currently being used by the Registry Server to publish itself) called Linlyn that I already modified as xDownloadLinlyn, with an interface xDownloadListener...  Multi-file downloads would create an instance of xDownloadLinlyn, which would call the xDownloadListener's method to notify it (filename,contents)... Either way...the concept of file-sharing to be plugged in is another work...

Yet another (FIFTH, and potentially of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the Swing conversion.  'nuff said.

Still another (SIXTH, and also potentally of second importance only to CVS, depending on who you are) is the refining of the GUI (swing or not) and the user processes so that they are more friendly, and more automated... 

Still yet another (SEVENTH, and also potentially of equal importance to CVS, swing and GUI-refine) is the setting up for behind configurable proxies/firewalls.  


I hope I neither scare you off from the huge set of projects I embark upon, nor scare you off from the still potentially limited list I myself can come up with...

When I advertised for help, I didn't know what to expect... I had dreams for this project...and some of them have come to fruition...and I have learned a great deal as a result of simply working on the project...  You seem to wish for your role to be that of mentor, and that is perfectly acceptable to me.... ANY level of involvement is great... Code, help organize, dream, spark new ideas...whatever...  The reason (mentioned in the help-wanted ad but re-iterated here for clarity) I wanted another developer is more for vision and less for individual lines of code...  You certainly have exceeded all of my expectations as far as a team member is concerned...

One thing I might or might not have already demonstrated is my ability to ramble...

If I hadn't prior to this email, I'm sure I did with this verbose email..

Maybe I could ask you a semi-frank question...  What is that you saw in the project that made you want to work on it..?  ((There are no bad answers ;-))

Do you have any thoughts on the above projects?  Do you have any more to add that you think might be of more importance.. (All opinions weigh heavily here)

Thanks,
Dave

David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

The state of CVS is as you'd last left it, unless you'd moved Chess to its own folder already....

I will go look...

My new computer arrived, and we only have enough space for one, so I had to rig the old HD to the slave connection of the first IDE port on the new machine (to copy email and important docs)...  I, regrettably, have been unable to even set them up as packages... (ie.. package ...; and the relavent import statements...which on second look, shouldn't be too hard to do)...


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:40 PM
To: Williams, David
Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..


Well, once you check out the current condition of CVS tell me if there
is anything else you want me to do with it.  I have the week after
christmas off, so I should have some time to even make some changes to
the code, or at least get it to build nicely if it isn't doing that yet,
and add an Ant build.xml process in there (which will be optional, of
course).

--bjgm

On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 14:00, Williams, David wrote:
> Not really... I just was wanting EVERYTHING...but maybe piecemeal is better anyway...
> 
> I have to get it up and working on XP before I can check out the source... probably sometime this long weekend...
> 
> Is there anything further that can be (OR has been) done with CVS?
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:54 PM
> To: Williams, David
> Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..
> 
> 
> I have always done it with the incremental installer, but I think you
> can also just download all the packages, and install it from the local
> drive.
> 
> Having problems with the installer?
> 
> --bjgm
> 
> On Wed, 2001-12-19 at 12:35, Williams, David wrote:
> > Is there a full download available.... or does it have to be done with that incremental installer thing?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > David Scott Williams
> > Computer Associates
> > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > Islandia, New York  11749
> > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > wi...@ca...
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > Cxt...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> > 
> 

[Cxtable-devel] RE:Cygwin...etc..

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Is there a full download available.... or does it have to be done with that incremental installer thing?



David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...

RE: [Cxtable-devel] Wow....

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Yeah... My wife is still used to Windows... but I might wipe it clean and put 98 on it instead, with a dual boot...

At this point, if I used a 'rescue' disk, I could probably install LILO in the MBR and point to the hdb, right?  Or does Linux need to be on hda?  ((I attached the old drive...  I imagine though, it being set up for being on hda2, it would take some fixing to make it work...  Or I could wipe the 15 gig hard-drive clean once I've transferred all the crap, and boot that way....

Anyway... I was both nauseus and intrigued by XP...  

David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:37 AM
To: cxt...@li...
Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] Wow....


Congrats on the new Athlon!  I just blew away XP a couple of days ago on
my 866 to get Linux on it instead.  I have never heard of any issues
with Linux and the Athlon chipset, but I don't know how well it will
interact with XP.  I haven't dual booted in years.

I do know that Cygwin works with XP and I ran in that environment for a
few weeks.  I know that JDK 1.4 beta 3 runs "ok" but not perfectly on
XP, and that is the only JDK revision I have used in that environment. 
I expect that 1.3.X would be fine as well.

--bjgm

On Tue, 2001-12-18 at 02:23, David Scott Williams wrote:
> I just put up my new Athlon with XP....  Do you know if Linux plays nice
> with this setup?
> 
> My modem is a USRobotics... So it is unlikely that I'll be using that
> modem with Linux....unless it happens to have a Lucent "Venus"
> chipset..which I doubt..
> 
> At some point I'll bring the old computer back up...
> 
> Do you know if Cygwin runs on XP? Netscape 4.73 is OK.... and the
> regular JRE w/ compiler runs OK too (the same one I had installed on the
> other box)...
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> 
> --
> ~Dave
> xi...@pr...
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
> Language<
> 
>  |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|
> 
> "He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
>  deserves neither freedom, nor security"
>   -Benjamin Franklin
> 
> "When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
> it's a wonder I can think at all..."
>   -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 



_______________________________________________
Cxtable-devel mailing list
Cxt...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel

RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix

[Borne Goodman-M. <bm...@eg...>]

It is ok to support both Swing and the AWT, and the only problem I see
is that the components are different enough that it would take a decent
amount of work to re-write the code for the other environment.

I feel the same about my work on the ominit project, and most of the
stuff I like to work on the most is in the server / networking area, so
my UI is a bit on the lacking side, for now.

Also, I just added skinning (via SkinLF (l2fprod.com)) to my UI
yesterday, and it was VERY easy and makes a big difference.  Check it
out, and once things get to using Swing it should definitely be used.

--bjgm

On Mon, 2001-12-17 at 14:04, Williams, David wrote:
> I am going to do that full-install as soon as I can...  I just got an Athlon 1700 w/ XP (arggh!) but it has a CD-burner...so I think I'll download the various JDKs for the various platforms and save them permanently, so I can install them quicker...
> 
> I think I should take a few steps to extract the last AWT out of the mandatory section, and then stabilize the current AWT release of the GUI, and re-start the GUI development in Swing...  
> 
> There's nothing inherently wrong, though, in allowing for both, is there?  
> 
> There is something for one single standardized GUI...but I also had dreams for a drag-n-drop customizable GUI... I feel the best work in the product to date the user never sees...
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: Williams, David
> Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix
> 
> 
> How is your AWT doing now with the new linux install?  I have downloaded
> and am playing with SkinLF (from l2fprod.com) which allows for a VERY
> niice and flexible look and feel system for Swing.  You should check it
> out.  The best add-on for UI flexibility for Java that I have seen yet.
> 
> --bjgm
> 
> On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 16:58, Williams, David wrote:
> > Did you ever notice that the words "robust" appeared in marketing letters at about the same time that Java appeared?  (coffee--robust... )
> > 
> > 
> > Anyway...
> > 
> > I don't really think that anything in my GUI would notice the performance hit of Swing...
> > 
> > My issue was not actually with RedHat, but I think, rather, with the JDK's AWT implementation in Linux...although no one could duplicate it, it died fast and hard in the Motif libraries... I did not know, after all, that I had Motif libraries, so I assume that they must have come w/ Java?... maybe the install failed and I should re-download it again?  I dunno... I am in the process of installing Debian right now... the "Potato"... we'll see if that is any better... ;-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > David Scott Williams
> > Computer Associates
> > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > Islandia, New York  11749
> > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > wi...@ca...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:44 PM
> > To: cxt...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix
> > 
> > 
> > Swing is based on the AWT foundation, so it will definitely be slower in
> > a lot of cases, but it gives a few important things that the AWT did not
> > have.  Since it is not tied directly to operating system Peer objects,
> > the Swing UI will look the same on every platform.  There are a lot more
> > "complex" UI types made for you in Swing, such as tables, tabbed panels,
> > image buttons, and many more.  3rd but not last, Swing was designed
> > specifically to be used withing an MVC paradigm, which is the defacto
> > standard methodology for putting together UIs.
> > 
> > I have never "loaded motif" on any of my linux systems, and I have never
> > had problems like you say you had.  There are remnants of motif in X,
> > and perhaps loading non-standard Motif / X packages could cause issues,
> > but this has never happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening with
> > a default Red Hat installation.
> > 
> > Depending on what you want the UI to do, Swing may or may not be fast
> > enough, and you also need to determine the speed / type of system the
> > software is being designed for.  We of course want the software to work
> > perfectly on a 486, but I don't think any software that came out in the
> > last 2 years does.
> > 
> > Swing is definitely eye candy, and if you don't want eye candy than
> > don't build a GUI, build a text based interface.
> > 
> > The Swing implementation on any platform is more "robust" than the AWT
> > implementation on that same platform, and Swing should be equally robust
> > across all platforms, and that is supposed to be the holy grail of java
> > after all.
> > 
> > --bjgm
> > 
> > On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 11:52, Williams, David wrote:
> > > OK...  earlier in our discussions we had some talk of Swing vs AWT, etc..
> > > 
> > > I have some questions that I'd like to discuss in more detail.
> > > 
> > > >From my 'failures' running Java 1.3.1_01 (and for that matter, its recommended Merlin 1.4beta replacement) on RedHat 7.0 did tell me one thing.... 
> > > 
> > > AWT in Linux Java uses Motif.  I am absolutely 100% sure of that.  It sucks.
> > > 
> > > Swing... what does it use?  I would consider moving the application  to Swing, as some of my most recent changes no longer run correctly under the last MVM release (their implementation of Java, jview..)... 
> > > {{{ I don't, however, wish to debate that.  I kept compliance w/ jview because a couple of my beta-testers (now they've become more intelligent) were REALLY poor at understanding these things, and they had Jview, and they DL'd the patch from microsoft...and I could test the program w/o impacting their daily software requirements greatly.....  Now I feel that complying with anything Microsoft is not even a priority.  It is something I will 'consider' later...but it is not a project requirement...
> > > }}}
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Does Swing use Qt?  Does it use Tk?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Now we come to some other issues.  At some point, I might wish to render animation via tightly constructed messaging...  Swing is more suited to this, no?  ((I am not talking real-time animation...))..  I might wish to consider other things...
> > > 
> > > There are other reasons why I avoided Swing for so long...  I constantly read and participate in the Java forums..although after a year of answering "Class not found" questions and having a couple of 'experts' shoot down my non-mainstream solutions as stupid, I felt that my time was better spent coding...
> > > 
> > > In my time, though, on the Java forums...I did realize that most people had some type of dislike of Swing, felt that its performance was slow, and that it was eye-candy...that it bulked applications up.... I have to say... these were my first formative opinions of Swing, and its  a hard taste to get out of your mouth once its there...  So I am of two minds on the whole thing...
> > > 
> > > One, I like the idea of more flexibility, snappier looking GUIs, and all that... as long as performace won't take a hit.
> > > 
> > > However, I still wonder... is the Swing implementation UNDER *nix more robust than the AWT implementation under *nix?
> > > 
> > > Anyway...
> > > 
> > > ~Dave
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > David Scott Williams
> > > Computer Associates
> > > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > > Islandia, New York  11749
> > > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > > wi...@ca...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > > Cxt...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > Cxt...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 

Re: [Cxtable-devel] Wow....

[Borne Goodman-M. <bm...@eg...>]

Congrats on the new Athlon!  I just blew away XP a couple of days ago on
my 866 to get Linux on it instead.  I have never heard of any issues
with Linux and the Athlon chipset, but I don't know how well it will
interact with XP.  I haven't dual booted in years.

I do know that Cygwin works with XP and I ran in that environment for a
few weeks.  I know that JDK 1.4 beta 3 runs "ok" but not perfectly on
XP, and that is the only JDK revision I have used in that environment. 
I expect that 1.3.X would be fine as well.

--bjgm

On Tue, 2001-12-18 at 02:23, David Scott Williams wrote:
> I just put up my new Athlon with XP....  Do you know if Linux plays nice
> with this setup?
> 
> My modem is a USRobotics... So it is unlikely that I'll be using that
> modem with Linux....unless it happens to have a Lucent "Venus"
> chipset..which I doubt..
> 
> At some point I'll bring the old computer back up...
> 
> Do you know if Cygwin runs on XP? Netscape 4.73 is OK.... and the
> regular JRE w/ compiler runs OK too (the same one I had installed on the
> other box)...
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> 
> --
> ~Dave
> xi...@pr...
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
> Language<
> 
>  |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|
> 
> "He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
>  deserves neither freedom, nor security"
>   -Benjamin Franklin
> 
> "When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
> it's a wonder I can think at all..."
>   -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> 

[Cxtable-devel] Wow....

[David S. W. <xi...@pr...>]

I just put up my new Athlon with XP....  Do you know if Linux plays nice
with this setup?

My modem is a USRobotics... So it is unlikely that I'll be using that
modem with Linux....unless it happens to have a Lucent "Venus"
chipset..which I doubt..

At some point I'll bring the old computer back up...

Do you know if Cygwin runs on XP? Netscape 4.73 is OK.... and the
regular JRE w/ compiler runs OK too (the same one I had installed on the
other box)...

~Dave


--
~Dave
xi...@pr...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cxtable >The xTable Project<
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dustyscript  >Dustyscript Child Script
Language<

 |>>weblog: http://www.geocities.com/xiarcel/weblogs/log.html<<|

"He who trades even a small amount of freedom for temporary security
 deserves neither freedom, nor security"
  -Benjamin Franklin

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School...
it's a wonder I can think at all..."
  -Paul Simon, "Kodachrome"

RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

Correction: "Project"..not 'product'

David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Williams, David 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:04 PM
To: cxt...@li...
Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix


I am going to do that full-install as soon as I can...  I just got an Athlon 1700 w/ XP (arggh!) but it has a CD-burner...so I think I'll download the various JDKs for the various platforms and save them permanently, so I can install them quicker...

I think I should take a few steps to extract the last AWT out of the mandatory section, and then stabilize the current AWT release of the GUI, and re-start the GUI development in Swing...  

There's nothing inherently wrong, though, in allowing for both, is there?  

There is something for one single standardized GUI...but I also had dreams for a drag-n-drop customizable GUI... I feel the best work in the product to date the user never sees...

~Dave


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:58 PM
To: Williams, David
Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix


How is your AWT doing now with the new linux install?  I have downloaded
and am playing with SkinLF (from l2fprod.com) which allows for a VERY
niice and flexible look and feel system for Swing.  You should check it
out.  The best add-on for UI flexibility for Java that I have seen yet.

--bjgm

On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 16:58, Williams, David wrote:
> Did you ever notice that the words "robust" appeared in marketing letters at about the same time that Java appeared?  (coffee--robust... )
> 
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> I don't really think that anything in my GUI would notice the performance hit of Swing...
> 
> My issue was not actually with RedHat, but I think, rather, with the JDK's AWT implementation in Linux...although no one could duplicate it, it died fast and hard in the Motif libraries... I did not know, after all, that I had Motif libraries, so I assume that they must have come w/ Java?... maybe the install failed and I should re-download it again?  I dunno... I am in the process of installing Debian right now... the "Potato"... we'll see if that is any better... ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:44 PM
> To: cxt...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix
> 
> 
> Swing is based on the AWT foundation, so it will definitely be slower in
> a lot of cases, but it gives a few important things that the AWT did not
> have.  Since it is not tied directly to operating system Peer objects,
> the Swing UI will look the same on every platform.  There are a lot more
> "complex" UI types made for you in Swing, such as tables, tabbed panels,
> image buttons, and many more.  3rd but not last, Swing was designed
> specifically to be used withing an MVC paradigm, which is the defacto
> standard methodology for putting together UIs.
> 
> I have never "loaded motif" on any of my linux systems, and I have never
> had problems like you say you had.  There are remnants of motif in X,
> and perhaps loading non-standard Motif / X packages could cause issues,
> but this has never happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening with
> a default Red Hat installation.
> 
> Depending on what you want the UI to do, Swing may or may not be fast
> enough, and you also need to determine the speed / type of system the
> software is being designed for.  We of course want the software to work
> perfectly on a 486, but I don't think any software that came out in the
> last 2 years does.
> 
> Swing is definitely eye candy, and if you don't want eye candy than
> don't build a GUI, build a text based interface.
> 
> The Swing implementation on any platform is more "robust" than the AWT
> implementation on that same platform, and Swing should be equally robust
> across all platforms, and that is supposed to be the holy grail of java
> after all.
> 
> --bjgm
> 
> On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 11:52, Williams, David wrote:
> > OK...  earlier in our discussions we had some talk of Swing vs AWT, etc..
> > 
> > I have some questions that I'd like to discuss in more detail.
> > 
> > >From my 'failures' running Java 1.3.1_01 (and for that matter, its recommended Merlin 1.4beta replacement) on RedHat 7.0 did tell me one thing.... 
> > 
> > AWT in Linux Java uses Motif.  I am absolutely 100% sure of that.  It sucks.
> > 
> > Swing... what does it use?  I would consider moving the application  to Swing, as some of my most recent changes no longer run correctly under the last MVM release (their implementation of Java, jview..)... 
> > {{{ I don't, however, wish to debate that.  I kept compliance w/ jview because a couple of my beta-testers (now they've become more intelligent) were REALLY poor at understanding these things, and they had Jview, and they DL'd the patch from microsoft...and I could test the program w/o impacting their daily software requirements greatly.....  Now I feel that complying with anything Microsoft is not even a priority.  It is something I will 'consider' later...but it is not a project requirement...
> > }}}
> > 
> > 
> > Does Swing use Qt?  Does it use Tk?
> > 
> > 
> > Now we come to some other issues.  At some point, I might wish to render animation via tightly constructed messaging...  Swing is more suited to this, no?  ((I am not talking real-time animation...))..  I might wish to consider other things...
> > 
> > There are other reasons why I avoided Swing for so long...  I constantly read and participate in the Java forums..although after a year of answering "Class not found" questions and having a couple of 'experts' shoot down my non-mainstream solutions as stupid, I felt that my time was better spent coding...
> > 
> > In my time, though, on the Java forums...I did realize that most people had some type of dislike of Swing, felt that its performance was slow, and that it was eye-candy...that it bulked applications up.... I have to say... these were my first formative opinions of Swing, and its  a hard taste to get out of your mouth once its there...  So I am of two minds on the whole thing...
> > 
> > One, I like the idea of more flexibility, snappier looking GUIs, and all that... as long as performace won't take a hit.
> > 
> > However, I still wonder... is the Swing implementation UNDER *nix more robust than the AWT implementation under *nix?
> > 
> > Anyway...
> > 
> > ~Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > David Scott Williams
> > Computer Associates
> > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > Islandia, New York  11749
> > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > wi...@ca...
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > Cxt...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel


_______________________________________________
Cxtable-devel mailing list
Cxt...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel

RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

I am going to do that full-install as soon as I can...  I just got an Athlon 1700 w/ XP (arggh!) but it has a CD-burner...so I think I'll download the various JDKs for the various platforms and save them permanently, so I can install them quicker...

I think I should take a few steps to extract the last AWT out of the mandatory section, and then stabilize the current AWT release of the GUI, and re-start the GUI development in Swing...  

There's nothing inherently wrong, though, in allowing for both, is there?  

There is something for one single standardized GUI...but I also had dreams for a drag-n-drop customizable GUI... I feel the best work in the product to date the user never sees...

~Dave


David Scott Williams
Computer Associates
Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
One Computer Associates Plaza 
Islandia, New York  11749
tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
fax: +1 631-342-5734
wi...@ca...






-----Original Message-----
From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:58 PM
To: Williams, David
Subject: RE: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix


How is your AWT doing now with the new linux install?  I have downloaded
and am playing with SkinLF (from l2fprod.com) which allows for a VERY
niice and flexible look and feel system for Swing.  You should check it
out.  The best add-on for UI flexibility for Java that I have seen yet.

--bjgm

On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 16:58, Williams, David wrote:
> Did you ever notice that the words "robust" appeared in marketing letters at about the same time that Java appeared?  (coffee--robust... )
> 
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> I don't really think that anything in my GUI would notice the performance hit of Swing...
> 
> My issue was not actually with RedHat, but I think, rather, with the JDK's AWT implementation in Linux...although no one could duplicate it, it died fast and hard in the Motif libraries... I did not know, after all, that I had Motif libraries, so I assume that they must have come w/ Java?... maybe the install failed and I should re-download it again?  I dunno... I am in the process of installing Debian right now... the "Potato"... we'll see if that is any better... ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> David Scott Williams
> Computer Associates
> Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> One Computer Associates Plaza 
> Islandia, New York  11749
> tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> fax: +1 631-342-5734
> wi...@ca...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Borne Goodman-Mace [mailto:bm...@eg...]
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:44 PM
> To: cxt...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Cxtable-devel] Java on *nix
> 
> 
> Swing is based on the AWT foundation, so it will definitely be slower in
> a lot of cases, but it gives a few important things that the AWT did not
> have.  Since it is not tied directly to operating system Peer objects,
> the Swing UI will look the same on every platform.  There are a lot more
> "complex" UI types made for you in Swing, such as tables, tabbed panels,
> image buttons, and many more.  3rd but not last, Swing was designed
> specifically to be used withing an MVC paradigm, which is the defacto
> standard methodology for putting together UIs.
> 
> I have never "loaded motif" on any of my linux systems, and I have never
> had problems like you say you had.  There are remnants of motif in X,
> and perhaps loading non-standard Motif / X packages could cause issues,
> but this has never happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening with
> a default Red Hat installation.
> 
> Depending on what you want the UI to do, Swing may or may not be fast
> enough, and you also need to determine the speed / type of system the
> software is being designed for.  We of course want the software to work
> perfectly on a 486, but I don't think any software that came out in the
> last 2 years does.
> 
> Swing is definitely eye candy, and if you don't want eye candy than
> don't build a GUI, build a text based interface.
> 
> The Swing implementation on any platform is more "robust" than the AWT
> implementation on that same platform, and Swing should be equally robust
> across all platforms, and that is supposed to be the holy grail of java
> after all.
> 
> --bjgm
> 
> On Thu, 2001-12-13 at 11:52, Williams, David wrote:
> > OK...  earlier in our discussions we had some talk of Swing vs AWT, etc..
> > 
> > I have some questions that I'd like to discuss in more detail.
> > 
> > >From my 'failures' running Java 1.3.1_01 (and for that matter, its recommended Merlin 1.4beta replacement) on RedHat 7.0 did tell me one thing.... 
> > 
> > AWT in Linux Java uses Motif.  I am absolutely 100% sure of that.  It sucks.
> > 
> > Swing... what does it use?  I would consider moving the application  to Swing, as some of my most recent changes no longer run correctly under the last MVM release (their implementation of Java, jview..)... 
> > {{{ I don't, however, wish to debate that.  I kept compliance w/ jview because a couple of my beta-testers (now they've become more intelligent) were REALLY poor at understanding these things, and they had Jview, and they DL'd the patch from microsoft...and I could test the program w/o impacting their daily software requirements greatly.....  Now I feel that complying with anything Microsoft is not even a priority.  It is something I will 'consider' later...but it is not a project requirement...
> > }}}
> > 
> > 
> > Does Swing use Qt?  Does it use Tk?
> > 
> > 
> > Now we come to some other issues.  At some point, I might wish to render animation via tightly constructed messaging...  Swing is more suited to this, no?  ((I am not talking real-time animation...))..  I might wish to consider other things...
> > 
> > There are other reasons why I avoided Swing for so long...  I constantly read and participate in the Java forums..although after a year of answering "Class not found" questions and having a couple of 'experts' shoot down my non-mainstream solutions as stupid, I felt that my time was better spent coding...
> > 
> > In my time, though, on the Java forums...I did realize that most people had some type of dislike of Swing, felt that its performance was slow, and that it was eye-candy...that it bulked applications up.... I have to say... these were my first formative opinions of Swing, and its  a hard taste to get out of your mouth once its there...  So I am of two minds on the whole thing...
> > 
> > One, I like the idea of more flexibility, snappier looking GUIs, and all that... as long as performace won't take a hit.
> > 
> > However, I still wonder... is the Swing implementation UNDER *nix more robust than the AWT implementation under *nix?
> > 
> > Anyway...
> > 
> > ~Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > David Scott Williams
> > Computer Associates
> > Marketing Representative-Sales Call Center
> > One Computer Associates Plaza 
> > Islandia, New York  11749
> > tel: +1 800-243-9462 ext. 73431
> > tel: +1 631-342-3431 (Direct)
> > fax: +1 631-342-5734
> > wi...@ca...
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cxtable-devel mailing list
> > Cxt...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cxtable-devel mailing list
> Cxt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cxtable-devel

[Cxtable-devel] Wonka

[Williams, D. <DAV...@ca...>]

 <<AV-SCANR.TXT>>  
 
 http://wonka.acunia.com/