Re: [Crawl-ref-discuss] tutorial and searching

[Adam B. <kil...@an...>]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2012 at 12:15:10AM +0200, Raphael Langella wrote:
> 2012/10/3 David Ploog <dp...@mi...>
> 
> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Adam Borowski wrote:
> >
> > > What's not agreed upon:
> > > * should it be possible to detect traps remotely?  If so, how should the
> > >  effective difficulty increase?
> >
> > There's a source for contention that I believe was refuted by Raphael, but
> > I forgot how, so I will bring it up again:
> >
> > We have to make sure that players will not agonise about how to explore.
> > I am thinking of the chance of detecting a trap on spot X depending
> > whether you approach this way, or that way. It would almost always amount
> > to no difference, but there shouldn't be any potential difference in the
> > first place.
> >
> 
> Well, there is no "chance of detecting traps" anymore. It is deterministic
> now. So if you are way over the threshold, you can increase the detection
> range (which is what Adam has implemented). It probably doesn't have much
> gameplay effect, so if we end up using dex, it might better to remove range
> detection.

I think the skill threshold increasing with range is bad, I left it in only
to reduce the first part of the change.  There are two good variants:

* any place in LOS has the same chance.  This avoids trawling an area if you
  want to ensure safe retreat
* only range 1 detection, to keep traps more of a surprise (at a small risk
  of players trawling sometimes)


> > * what skill/stat to use.  Some of us want to get rid of the Traps skill,
> >  leaving only stat[s], XL and/or perhaps Stealth.

> I believe that axing mechanical traps generally (see below) is good, and
> that afterwards there is not nearly enough content for a dedicated skill
> (especially with the recent removal of secret doors).
> Among the remaining parameters (I agree with your list), I'd rank:
> - XL as worst, I'd always avoid that -- there in no intrinsic link at all
> - Stealth as an acceptable solution, but only second best to
> - Dexterity: that stat makes sense, especially if we restrict trap
>    detection to adjacent squares. I realise that Dexterity, at this point,
>    is not the weakest skill, but Strength can (and will) be buffed
>    eventually, so taking Dexterity here seems like the correct move from
>    a long term point of view.

To the contrary: XL seems the best to me, Dex the worst.  XL is 1.
consistent with similar checks (MR, a good part of stealth), 2. a good
approximation of "a misc skill good players would get a bit of later", since
XL _is_ xp.  You just don't have to put xp there consciously, yet for
practical purposes it's a skill.

DEX on the other hand stands for a racial factor with a minor factor from
Stealth: you don't pick most of DEX as it's assigned to races that are also
most stealthy, jobs which are again most stealthy, and in the rare case you
choose it for stat gain, it's also only chars who rely on stealth.  You
could just as well use the Stealth skill outright without artificially
hampering not typically stealth races.

> However, I realized that this change is actually making the Traps skill
> more relevant. Instead of just finding traps faster, you find more of
> them. Training the skill could make a real difference in the Zot:5
> vault. So we might as well keep the skill for a while and test this new
> system.

If so, some better formula would be needed, current one has been hastily
slapped on just so there's _something_.

> I propose we start by improving the formula. We can use what dpeg suggested
> : trap.skill_rnd = d(abs_depth * d(3)).

Uhm, that'd would mean you need X skill for depth Y.

> Then we reduce the number of mechanical traps.  We play it and see how it
> feels, then decide if more is needed.

Perhaps to zero outright?  Shafts are indeed interesting, mechanical and Zot
traps not at all.

> Remember that it's not a huge issue, so if this address 95% of trap
> problems, our efforts might be better spent on more interesting projects
> than on doing a big overhaul for fixing a little problem.

Ie, "delete all traps".


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