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#3133 Open up Long Blades to Fighters
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nobody
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5
2009-12-27
2009-12-27
Anonymous
No
Allow the fighter class access to Long Blades via additional choice in list of what weapon skill to start with. This makes sense from a flavor standpoint and also will stop people from starting paladin and renouncing religeon so that they can start with long blades. While unique to Paladin right now, I think this move would make fighters happier, and paladin would be a deliberate choice, rather than oh i need to be Pa if i want to start with LB skill. -PigVomit
I am speaking of Fi class specifically, not Gl or other 'fighter types' btw -PV
Side note, what is the benefit at all to selecting long blades for a str heavy character instead of axes/maces?
This makes most sense for Gl, not Fi.
Gl in a traditional sense are trained in ring fighting with short swords, nets etc, not long blades.
comment to side note anonymous:
STR heavy chars will enjoy switching to 2H LB (or not) just like...Paladins!
-PV
@anonymous two below me: And crusaders weren't atheists. The point is that gladiator's shtick is offensive power.
Way back when, long blades were denied for fighters out of fear of overpoweredness. Since, right now, axes are much more popular than falchions, it's probably not an issue to change this now.
sorear: true, but I'd rather have a better concept for classes before doing this.
Long blades were better in 4b26. They haven't been strong enough to be denied for a long time now. It would make sense to think about what classes should get access though. Does it make sense for only fighters to get it? The other classes that get choices like Reaver/Death Knight/Gladiator should be excluded.. why? I guess I am more inclined to just open the floodgates and open it up across the board...
Megane
Megane, i guess that makes sense. I was just thinking that fighters would have the most training in a variety of weapons. But honestly it is much easier to find a good mace or axe earlier in the game anyways, so your suggestion would work. -PV
Agree with this - I find fighters quite boring, but gladiator is one of my favourite classes. A fighter WOULD know how to use a long blade, which would instantly give them appeal just for being one of only two classes to do so (a paladin without the religious baggage, you could say)
Lagus
Which is more interesting: (1) all weapon classes are available at the beginning, or (2) at least one weapon class is unavailable at the start, or only available with a heavy cost?
Personally, when I'm playing a character I (might) want to use long blades with, it's an exciting moment in the game when I find my first one. It's not obvious why removing that bit of excitement form the game would be an improvement.
Lemuel
There is a large imbalance between weapon classes.
In 0.5, Axes are the best by a large margin, used more than twice as much as any other class. I guess this will shift to M&F now that most of these (clubs, whips, demon whips, eveningstars, great maces, giant clubs, gsc) were significantly improved.
I agree with Lemuel, it would be cool to have Long Blades as something you can't get for free, but that would require a boost to these. What about giving long blade items to have an increased chance of being generated a [rand]art?
castamir, that sounds like an interesting idea
I really dont know why long blades are so rare in the first place, and why it is so exciting to find them. It is not like they are the ultimate weapons in crawl. (is it because a large amount of the caster classes start with SB?) I am looking at this from a fighters point of view so i may be short sighted.
I have a feeling that the 'axes are the best' in 0.5 comes down to the lack of variety, since there are less axe types, you have better chance to gift/aquire/find an axe of the type you would like to use vs other weapon classes that have many weapons that dilute the pool.
Also trying to find a solution to playing paladin and renouncing religion to start with LB skill, because that is cheesy. -PV
The only thing that's 'exciting' about getting a long blade to me is this: long blades are made for elves. For some races, they are the best thing out there, even though as a weapon class, they are not overpowered at all. They could be underpowered and still be preferred for some characters.
As to whether there is a problem or not, i don't know. It is annoying to have short blades first, and skipping short blades can really stunt your growth as a hybrid-type character, which is kind of annoying (since elves are what, probably the most viable 'hybrid' type character, and yet the long blade thing makes it significantly harder). and stuff like if you go with Okawaru, it pisses you off every time you get a short blade perhaps because of your short blade weapon skill you don't want to use..
I'm not sure that the 'excitement' of finding a long blade is that big a deal.. there can be lots of sources of excitement - should this be one of them? Seems like it might be enough to just be excited that you find a good one - like a branded one early on, etc..
Just not sure either way on that,
Megane
1. I'm for restricting Long Blades to paladins as it currently is, for flavour reasons. In medieval ages you could buy a village for the price of a good sword. Really, not everyone could afford a sword. Not every peon can run around with a long sword, and I like that.
2. Long blades still have one slight advantage. The worst long blade is Falchion, at 8 damage. There are no long blade clubs, whips, spears, handaxes, hammers. This means it should be easier to get heavier weapons from acquirement if you went with long blades.
3. I think that you people are taking melee weapons too seriously ! +10% speed here or there, it doesn't make a huge difference. Or +1 damage. It's not like you're choosing poison magic or earth magic. _Those_ are meaningful choices. In my experience, _brands_ available for a weapon class have much bigger impact. For example Venom is available for polearms and that's why you can have a very easy early game with them. Later you can go with Dragon Slaying.
1. That flavor is just not too important compared to the gameplay implications, at least to me.
2. This is basically irrelevant right now, but might matter more later on as randarts become useful. On the other hand doesnt' really seem like this is an advantage over axes or polearms really, but rather a weak point of maces.
3. Yeah, actually I agree here. Your examples are funny though, since venom is available to everything, and dragon slaying is just not a good brand, late game or not. On the other hand, speed is available on every(?) polearm, and this really makes polearms great. At the same time, this is a large part of why maces suck so much. Long swords have speed available on long swords and scimitars, but this isn't that compelling an advantage to me. Good one-handed weapons is the advantage I see with long swords, but I think the decision is still likely to be made just off aptitudes.
Elves are going to go for long blades, Orcs and dwarves are taking axes, Merfolk are going to take polearms, etc. Since melee characters are dominating lately, that means we see a lot of axes. And noone is going to take maces.
Megane
(of course, maces should be good with the fixes made..) -megane