colinux-users

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Oscar U. <osc...@pr...>]

Not sure there is a good bridge for this, or what exactly the function of i=
t would be. You might be able to share file systems, but running Linux apps=
 on Windows seamlessly is sort of a VM thing. Basically you'd need cygwin's=
 X11 on top for windowing environments. Since coLinux runs with in it's own=
 process space, not sure how the cross communication would be. Can you expl=
ain better what kind of integration your shooting for?? Of course, I only h=
ave a vague technical understanding of these things, so I'm not trying to t=
ype authoritatively on any of these issues.


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Reichenbach" <mic...@fr...>
> To: col...@li...
> Subject: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:28:48 +0100
>=20
>=20
> This project is really awesome. I think it`s a great chance for all
> linux based distributions to become even more successfully.
>=20
> Sure you know java runtime environment, net framework or direct x. Often
> it`s shipped on a cd with your software or you download it. Just click a
> few times to "ok, install, yes" and your`re done or there is also a
> -silent option.
>=20
> What about turning CoLinux into 'linux runtime environment'? Currently
> it`s hard to set up and no jump in solution. Why not create a version
> which runs out of the box?
>=20
> This would allow any kind of software developer, hobbyist or commercial
> developer to develop software under linux and for linux exclusively
> without porting. On windows there would be just need to install 'linux
> runtime environment'.
>=20
> CoLinux just needs better a bit better integration into windows. Like
> linking deb/rpm.
>=20
> It`s a suggestion. What is your opinion on this?
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> coLinux-users mailing list
> coL...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/colinux-users

>


--=20
Want an e-mail address like mine?
Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Michael R. <mic...@fr...>]

Oscar Usifer wrote:
> Not sure there is a good bridge for this, or what exactly the function of it would be. You might be able to share file systems, but running Linux apps on Windows seamlessly is sort of a VM thing.
A virtual machine isn`t best choice. It`s good to have a virtual 
computer where you can do testings and so on or if you want to sell 
virtual servers or you have a old mailserver or whatever and want all 
apps in it`s own virtual computer.

But virtual machines are not that good for guis and so on. Them are a 
bit to slow and integration with other devices such as printers is not 
so good yet. Them are also slow. I guess if the developers of this 
project would have been happy with vmware/virtualbox them wouldn`t have 
started this project which goes another way then virtualisation (them 
chose porting).

> Can you explain better what kind of integration your shooting for?
I think colinux is great software and vision is to have it in a useful 
and more easy state also for normal users. Currently it`s hard to set up 
and the integration is not so good.

Features I am thinking of you are downloading 'linux runtime 
environment', install it... Then go to some website and download some 
.deb or .rpm package, save it on desktop, double click it and it will be 
installed, then you can start it directly from windows. Or open a 
terminal and type apt-get install whatever.

Colinux provides this functions already "nearly".

If I think right this would also simplify other developers live. 
Example, you program some office suite using C++ and Qt or GTK, compile 
it for linux and create a .deb package, you`re done. No more need to 
compile it under windows because windows gets the function to run also 
linux apps because the kernel (and some more goodies) got ported.

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Christopher D. C. <ccl...@ac...>]

Michael Reichenbach <mic...@fr...> wrote:
> Oscar Usifer wrote:
>> Not sure there is a good bridge for this, or what exactly the
>> function of it would be. You might be able to share file systems,
>> but running Linux apps on Windows seamlessly is sort of a VM thing.
>
> A virtual machine isn`t best choice. It`s good to have a virtual
> computer where you can do testings and so on or if you want to sell
> virtual servers or you have a old mailserver or whatever and want all
> apps in it`s own virtual computer.
>
> But virtual machines are not that good for guis and so on. Them are a
> bit to slow and integration with other devices such as printers is not
> so good yet. Them are also slow. I guess if the developers of this
> project would have been happy with vmware/virtualbox them wouldn`t
> have started this project which goes another way then virtualisation
> (them chose porting).

Running coLinux is certinaly not as safe and easy as running a piece of 
Java code in a VM.

Also be aware of security implications of doing such things.  Java is 
somewhat sandboxed, coLinux is not.  CoLinux can crash your computer.

>> Can you explain better what kind of integration your shooting for?
>
> I think colinux is great software and vision is to have it in a useful
> and more easy state also for normal users. Currently it`s hard to set
> up and the integration is not so good.
>
> Features I am thinking of you are downloading 'linux runtime
> environment', install it... Then go to some website and download some
> .deb or .rpm package, save it on desktop, double click it and it will
> be installed, then you can start it directly from windows. Or open a
> terminal and type apt-get install whatever.

Why would one just not use a Windows version of apt to install native 
Windows software?

For instance: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/projects/Wipt/

> Colinux provides this functions already "nearly".
>
> If I think right this would also simplify other developers live.
> Example, you program some office suite using C++ and Qt or GTK,
> compile it for linux and create a .deb package, you`re done. No more
> need to compile it under windows because windows gets the function to
> run also linux apps because the kernel (and some more goodies) got
> ported.

Again, why not just port these things to run on Windows?  Use 
http://www.bloodshed.net/dev/devcpp.html to compile software for Windows 
natively.  And there are Windows ports of many things available on 
Linux.

And windows has a packaging technology that uses MSI files.  Just 
download an MSI and install.  Why mess with a non-native system for 
software installs?  It is complicated and will certainly always be more 
dificult than just using native software.

<<CDC 

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Christopher D. C. <ccl...@ac...>]

Michael Reichenbach <mic...@fr...> wrote:
> Christopher D. Clausen wrote:
>> Running coLinux is certinaly not as safe and easy as running a
>> piece of Java code in a VM.
>
> Never thought that this could become the biggest problem. If so, why
> this project exists then? Just for fun and to show that it`s possible?
> Sure not, what?

Back when I was first using coLinux, Virtual PC was not free (as in no 
money.)

>> Also be aware of security implications of doing such things.  Java is
>> somewhat sandboxed, coLinux is not.  CoLinux can crash your computer.
>
> Is this a big problem? No workarround?

It is a big problem for me.  Running Linux in Virtual PC or Virtual 
Server these days costs nothing additional and has a significantly lower 
change of taking down the host OS.  With hardware virtualization support 
in newer processor, the performance impact in significantly reduced.

> There is no big package archive like the one from debian. And
> realistic, I doub`t there will ever be one. So this program may be
> nice but it lacks contributers.

The program itself is fine.  And many packages are available for Windows 
in MSI format.  Someone just needs to actually create a repository. 
Trying to get non-native stuff to sort-of work will provide an 
alternative and further delay the work to just install things using MSIs 
directly from a Windows software repository.

>> Again, why not just port these things to run on Windows?
>
> Porting is sometimes complicated. Ok, if you use platform portable
> libs then it`s much more easy. But often the program was native for
> one platform only, then users started asking for a port. If it`s
> using linux specific libs or posix api or specific things like
> /proc/cpuinfo which windows does not provide then porting is not so
> easy.

Yes, but you could look at using the Subsystem for Unix applications 
(SUA) to port non-Windows code to Windows.

> Another reason is that there are tons of programs. Why "10.000" people
> start porting all those apps if just 1 project could allow to run all
> linux native programs also on windows because of this "trick"?

There are even more programs for Windows.  Someone just needs to bundle 
them in MSIs and setup a repository.

>> And windows has a packaging technology that uses MSI files.  Just
>> download an MSI and install.  Why mess with a non-native system for
>> software installs?  It is complicated and will certainly always be
>> more dificult than just using native software.
>
> I see you are not that convicted of my idea. :) No offense at all.

I just don't want you to spend a lot of time on something I don't think 
a lot of people will use due to the ability to crash and/or break into 
the host OS.

> May I ask why you are interested in this project?

When I started using it, Microsoft Virtual PC cost money.  It is now 
free and has nearly replaced my need to use coLinux.  And this need will 
be even further reduced with the hypervisor in Windows 2008 Server.

<<CDC 

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Michael R. <mic...@fr...>]

Christopher D. Clausen wrote:
  > Running coLinux is certinaly not as safe and easy as running a piece of
> Java code in a VM.

Never thought that this could become the biggest problem. If so, why 
this project exists then? Just for fun and to show that it`s possible? 
Sure not, what?

> Also be aware of security implications of doing such things.  Java is 
> somewhat sandboxed, coLinux is not.  CoLinux can crash your computer.

Is this a big problem? No workarround?

  > Why would one just not use a Windows version of apt to install native
> Windows software?
> 
> For instance: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/projects/Wipt/
There is no big package archive like the one from debian. And realistic, 
I doub`t there will ever be one. So this program may be nice but it 
lacks contributers.

> Again, why not just port these things to run on Windows?

Porting is sometimes complicated. Ok, if you use platform portable libs 
then it`s much more easy. But often the program was native for one 
platform only, then users started asking for a port. If it`s using linux 
specific libs or posix api or specific things like /proc/cpuinfo which 
windows does not provide then porting is not so easy.

Another reason is that there are tons of programs. Why "10.000" people 
start porting all those apps if just 1 project could allow to run all 
linux native programs also on windows because of this "trick"?

> And windows has a packaging technology that uses MSI files.  Just 
> download an MSI and install.  Why mess with a non-native system for 
> software installs?  It is complicated and will certainly always be more 
> dificult than just using native software.

I see you are not that convicted of my idea. :) No offense at all.

May I ask why you are interested in this project?

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Jitesh S. <jit...@gm...>]

On Jan 26, 2008 10:38 AM, Michael Reichenbach <
mic...@fr...> wrote:

> Christopher D. Clausen wrote:
>  > Running coLinux is certinaly not as safe and easy as running a piece of
> > Java code in a VM.
>
> Never thought that this could become the biggest problem. If so, why
> this project exists then? Just for fun and to show that it`s possible?
> Sure not, what?


Search for applications of virtualisation... or you can also refer to the
paper by Dan Aloni in the Linux Symposium 2004, in order to get an
understanding of where it can be used

>
>
> > Also be aware of security implications of doing such things.  Java is
> > somewhat sandboxed, coLinux is not.  CoLinux can crash your computer.
>
> Is this a big problem? No workarround?


Well .. colinux runs on ring 0 with the host OS. Personally, I doubt there
can be any workarounds (unless ring 1 or ring 3 virtualisation is used..
which defeats the purpose of colinux). Hardware support may help. something
like Intel-VT.

>
>
>  > Why would one just not use a Windows version of apt to install native
> > Windows software?
> >
>



>
> > For instance: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/projects/Wipt/
> There is no big package archive like the one from debian. And realistic,
> I doub`t there will ever be one. So this program may be nice but it
> lacks contributers.



>
> > Again, why not just port these things to run on Windows?
>
> Porting is sometimes complicated. Ok, if you use platform portable libs
> then it`s much more easy. But often the program was native for one
> platform only, then users started asking for a port. If it`s using linux
> specific libs or posix api or specific things like /proc/cpuinfo which
> windows does not provide then porting is not so easy.
>
> Another reason is that there are tons of programs. Why "10.000" people
> start porting all those apps if just 1 project could allow to run all
> linux native programs also on windows because of this "trick"?


Well... what you suggest is very close to what current virtualisation
solutions provide, including colinux. You can run applications on linux as a
guest, communicate with the host apps.
how would linux runtime environment differ??

>
>
> > And windows has a packaging technology that uses MSI files.  Just
> > download an MSI and install.  Why mess with a non-native system for
> > software installs?  It is complicated and will certainly always be more
> > dificult than just using native software.
>
> I see you are not that convicted of my idea. :) No offense at all.
>
> May I ask why you are interested in this project?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> coLinux-users mailing list
> coL...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/colinux-users
>

Re: [coLinux-users] suggestion: linux runtime environment

[Michael R. <mic...@fr...>]

Jitesh Shah wrote:
> Well... what you suggest is very close to what current virtualisation
> solutions provide, including colinux. You can run applications on linux as a
> guest, communicate with the host apps.
> how would linux runtime environment differ??

- Porting (colinux) is much faster then virtualizers (like vmware) and 
this is the biggest advantage.
- colinux is Free Software, the mature one virtualizers (vmware, 
virtualbox) are not really Free Software, just some parts are
- I did check out AndLinux. It`s really great, the integration with the 
host os is much better, the speed is great, the look and feel is great, 
copy and paste works, sounds works, easy installer, no slow virtual cards.

Henry Nestler wrote:
 > Perhaps you wish what Lina does? http://openlina.org/
 > Promo-Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtIZglgt-Mo

The idea is great but this project won`t get accept by Free Software 
developers since lina uses software patents.

It`s also a little bit limited compared to colinux. Colinux could let 
run also proprietary linux native only software on windows.

  > coLinux is the base VM for running every Linux. We can not provide all
 > in one box installation from Windows side. After you have a running
 > Linux in coLinux, you can use the Linux packet manager and downloading
 > and installing more packets (apt-get, yum, yast, ...).
 >
 > Some "box" installations with coLinux as background exist.

Ok, I begin to understand this a little big better. Colinux is like 
linux, it`s the base. But colinux is not ubuntu a preconfigured distro 
wich runs out of the box, this must be picked up by interested third 
party developers like AndLinux who want to use colinux as base.