Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] ISO entry level coder

[Walter T. <php...@to...>]

Quoting Neil Young <ny...@as...>:

> Wow - entry level pay, long hours, weekends, working on legacy VB and
> MS Access...

Yep, that just about sums it up.

But then my last gig was mid grade pay (I'm a veteran of 16 years  
development), long hours (10 to 14), weekends (yes both days), but it  
was PHP OO 5.3.x. And when the app was done I was handed my hat. So  
much for the "job".


> There's a Crate and Barrel outlet nearby.

No, but there is a K-Mart!


> I appreciate the job opportunities too.  I was really just trying to
> make a helpful suggestion to the OP that he may want to mention
> something good about working there, beyond just you can make some $$$.
> Perhaps, casual environment, great benefits, exciting work, or
> something...

No, I just wanted to be frank and honest about expectations.

Too many times I've been promised "casual environment, great benefits,  
exciting work" only to find out the "casual environment" is a dirty  
basement (therefore the "casual" clothes; the "great benefits" turns  
out to be the checks only bounce every few months; and the "exciting  
work" is from watching the strippers come to work across the street.

Yes, this is a job, a paying job. Yes, we have a "casual environment"  
(no, not a dirty basement), but (I think) a bit too casual; shorts and  
flip flops are a bit pushing it. As for benefits: holiday, vacation  
and sick time (and the checks don't bounce). Period. But that will  
change as we grow the operation. (Have to start somewhere). As for  
"exciting work"; well maintaining the original VB code will be as  
thrilling as golf on a rainy day, but we are in the planning stage of  
a new, multi-channel operation to handle the business we have in the  
pipe line. So in that regard, it will be exciting; designing and  
developing a green field system. At least, I think that is exciting.

> Has the PHP dev market descended to the point that companies no longer
> have to make jobs sound interesting?

Have you been reading the ads for jobs lately? Yes, the PHP, and the  
web in general, has descended that low and even lower. It's a race to  
the bottom. How much can an employer ask for (large skill set and  
years of experience) and how little can they pay for it.

I was offered a "senior" position ("best resume I've seen!") at  
$17.50/hr. And he even said he raised that by $3 because of my  
experience. Needless to say he was stunned when I declined.

Body shops are not paying more than $30 to $40/hr. At $40 an hour,  
after taxes and medical insurance (I have a family, I need that), you  
keep about $18.00. Meanwhile the body shop is getting $100 or more. I  
can't pay mortgage on that, let alone feed 3 teenage boys.


> Does he want to get someone who really wants that job or just someone who
> will take the position to pay the bills for the moment until things  
> turn around?

What I'm looking for is someone who wants a development job; wants to  
learn what it is really like in a development shop; learn how to do  
boring maintenance work but also learn how to design and architect a  
new system from the ground up.

No way to solve the "waiting for greener pastures" kind of guy.

Anyway, no candy coating. This is the way it is.

Walter--
...that's the thing about people who think they hate computers.
What they really hate is lousy programmers.
    - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle in "Oath of Fealty"