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From: Richard L. <ce...@l-...> - 2009-09-10 17:43:18
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-------------------------- Original Message -------------------------- Subject: per our conversation From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rich Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to your group! I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have many more to come. Must have * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework * Magento knowledge * Experience developing in a LAMP environment * Excellent skills in Open Source technology * Previous ecommerce experience preferred * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal * Local to Chicagoland area * Ability to work under pressure * Team player and motivated by timelines * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit resume for immediate review Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> LYONS CONSULTING GROUP 405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 Chicago, IL 60654 www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> blog.lyonscg.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 VISIT BOOTH #112 TO WIN A COMPLIMENTARY UX ASSESSMENT [cid:image001.png@01CA316B.4052A460] -- Some people ask for gifts here. I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself: http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch |
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From: Kathleen C. <kco...@ly...> - 2009-09-10 20:35:29
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Thank you! -----Original Message----- From: Richard Lynch [mailto:ce...@l-...] Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:43 PM To: chi...@li... Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job -------------------------- Original Message -------------------------- Subject: per our conversation From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rich Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to your group! I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have many more to come. Must have * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework * Magento knowledge * Experience developing in a LAMP environment * Excellent skills in Open Source technology * Previous ecommerce experience preferred * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal * Local to Chicagoland area * Ability to work under pressure * Team player and motivated by timelines * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit resume for immediate review Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> LYONS CONSULTING GROUP 405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 Chicago, IL 60654 www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> blog.lyonscg.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 VISIT BOOTH #112 TO WIN A COMPLIMENTARY UX ASSESSMENT [cid:image001.png@01CA316B.4052A460] -- Some people ask for gifts here. I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself: http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch |
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From: Neil R. <Nei...@rc...> - 2009-09-11 02:19:47
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This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at least. I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are just hard to please. At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote: >-------------------------- Original Message -------------------------- >Subject: per our conversation >From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> >Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm >To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Rich >Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to >your group! > >I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what >we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need >a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have >many more to come. > >Must have > > * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework > * Magento knowledge > * Experience developing in a LAMP environment > * Excellent skills in Open Source technology > * Previous ecommerce experience preferred > * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal > * Local to Chicagoland area > * Ability to work under pressure > * Team player and motivated by timelines > * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus > >Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please submit >resume for immediate review > > >Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager >T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 >kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> > >LYONS CONSULTING GROUP >405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 >Chicago, IL 60654 >www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> >blog.lyonscg.com >http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 Neil -- Nei...@rc... The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and (2) sedition. -- Edward Abbey |
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From: Mike B. <mbo...@ya...> - 2009-10-02 12:03:14
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You've really got to watch this video!! It mocks the Windows 7 video really well with bleeps in all of the right places. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyas7BrbUFY&feature=player_embedded On another note, I'm interested in going back to school for some sort of IT degree. Does anybody have any ideas? What programs or schools should I look into, etc. -Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com |
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From: Richard L. <ce...@l-...> - 2009-09-11 15:00:26
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I don't think Magento experience is all that common. On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote: > This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at > least. I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are > just hard to please. > > > At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote: > > >>-------------------------- Original Message >> -------------------------- >>Subject: per our conversation >>From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> >>Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm >>To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Rich >>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to >>your group! >> >>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what >>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need >>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have >>many more to come. >> >>Must have >> >> * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework >> * Magento knowledge >> * Experience developing in a LAMP environment >> * Excellent skills in Open Source technology >> * Previous ecommerce experience preferred >> * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal >> * Local to Chicagoland area >> * Ability to work under pressure >> * Team player and motivated by timelines >> * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus >> >>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please >> submit >>resume for immediate review >> >> >>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager >>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 >>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> >> >>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP >>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 >>Chicago, IL 60654 >>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> >>blog.lyonscg.com >>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 > > > Neil > -- > Nei...@rc... > > The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and > (2) sedition. > -- Edward Abbey > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > -- Some people ask for gifts here. I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself: http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch |
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From: Zachary W. <zw...@gu...> - 2009-09-11 20:56:19
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At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable. -Zach __________________ Gulo Solutions LLC Content Management Software & Internet Consulting Services http://www.gulosolutions.com p. 773.276.8066 c. 917.605.5665 On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Richard Lynch <ce...@l-...> wrote: > I don't think Magento experience is all that common. > > On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote: >> This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at >> least. I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are >> just hard to please. >> >> >> At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote: >> >> >>>-------------------------- Original Message >>> -------------------------- >>>Subject: per our conversation >>>From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> >>>Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm >>>To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>Rich >>>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to >>>your group! >>> >>>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what >>>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need >>>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have >>>many more to come. >>> >>>Must have >>> >>> * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework >>> * Magento knowledge >>> * Experience developing in a LAMP environment >>> * Excellent skills in Open Source technology >>> * Previous ecommerce experience preferred >>> * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal >>> * Local to Chicagoland area >>> * Ability to work under pressure >>> * Team player and motivated by timelines >>> * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus >>> >>>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please >>> submit >>>resume for immediate review >>> >>> >>>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager >>>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 >>>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> >>> >>>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP >>>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 >>>Chicago, IL 60654 >>>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> >>>blog.lyonscg.com >>>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 >> >> >> Neil >> -- >> Nei...@rc... >> >> The artist in our time has two chief responsibilities: (1) art; and >> (2) sedition. >> -- Edward Abbey >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 >> 30-Day >> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and >> focus on >> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with >> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july >> _______________________________________________ >> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list >> chi...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss >> > > > -- > Some people ask for gifts here. > I just want you to buy an Indie CD for yourself: > http://cdbaby.com/search/from/lynch > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > |
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From: Walker H. <sig...@gm...> - 2009-09-11 21:11:37
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"At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable." Amen On Sep 11, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Zachary Wilson <zw...@gu...> wrote: > At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any > platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable. |
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From: phpWalter <php...@to...> - 2009-09-11 22:15:07
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:33:35 -0400, Zachary Wilson <zw...@gu...> wrote: > At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any > platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable. Yes, one could draw that logical assumption. But, from my experience, when an employer says they want "experience" with this or that platform/framework/software. they really mean it. I can't tell you how many "opportunities" I've gone to and they wondered why I could not get this or that fully operation in an afternoon. After all, I have 16 years of development and 6 with PHP, so it should be easy! Given time, yes, "any platform/framework/software written in PHP is manageable" with an experienced developer. The issue comes in with inexperienced or unrealistic employers. I had a gig that lasted 3 days. They sent me home because I could not get their current eCommerce site running on Magento by the end of the second day. I don't know if they ever got it really running. When I went home that third morning (about 20 minutes after I got in) I left a test server running with their data, images, catalog and users. The skin didn't look their old one, and several other items didn't run as advertised by Magento right "out of the box." Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil? Walter It really is sad. |
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From: Arlo L. <ar...@ar...> - 2009-09-11 22:54:32
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> Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil? Well, I don't think Neil or Zach meant that working with any PHP-based software or framework should be -easy-. Most of my projects begin with comparing the available off-the-shelf options to a custom solution or a hybrid between the two. I explain to clients that a custom solution will take longer to get going up front, but in the future, customizations to off-the-shelf software will take about three times longer than a comparable addition to the custom software. There's just a lot more "stuff" to work through in those systems compared to a system that was designed and built for one purpose. I guess I should add "difficulty in finding more developers experienced with that software" as an additional caveat to clients considering such systems. A few years ago it seemed like every craigslist ad wanted someone experienced with Smarty templates; then it was Drupal; maybe Magento will be the next system whose popularity exceeds the available knowledge base. Cheers, -Arlo _______________________________ Arlo Leach 773.769.6106 http://arlomedia.com |
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From: Keith C. <mai...@ca...> - 2009-09-13 12:49:38
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On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote: > I guess I should add "difficulty in finding more developers experienced with > that software" as an additional caveat to clients considering such systems. > A few years ago it seemed like every craigslist ad wanted someone > experienced with Smarty templates; then it was Drupal; maybe Magento will be > the next system whose popularity exceeds the available knowledge base. Part of the problem with Magento is that it's a hairy beast, has only been around for a year-18 months, and is billed as a perfect system that you can have off the ground in a matter of hours... when in reality, you're looking at days, if not weeks of work. One of my guys has been writing an analysis of it for the past few months - http://blueparabola.com/category/general/magento - and has elicited some criticism from Varien's CTO. Varien is the company behind Magento. Part of the problem is that it's *sort* of an Open Source project... sure, it's unencrypted PHP and you can edit it to your heart's content. Yes, there is a community around it writing patches and submitting/sharing them. The problem is tha their repository isn't available for public review so major things break between minor versions and no one knows until it's released. Further, you don't know which patches and contributions have been included because their changelogs are borderline worthless. Finally, they have a wiki with user-generated docs and tips, but there's no "blessings" on any of the pages saying "yes, this is considered the best way" or any effort to identify which versions the instructions apply to... combined with the "breaking stuff between minor versions" point, this makes it painful at best. And fyi, my guy teaches the Magento class for php|architect... so he's generally pretty clueful on it. My 0.02, keith -- D. Keith Casey Jr. CTO, Blue Parabola, LLC http://BlueParabola.com http://CaseySoftware.com/blog |
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From: Larry G. <la...@ga...> - 2009-09-14 13:26:02
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On Friday 11 September 2009 5:54:11 pm Arlo Leach wrote: > > Yep, my fault. I guess I'm not that good at PHP. Eh, Neil? > > Well, I don't think Neil or Zach meant that working with any PHP-based > software or framework should be -easy-. > > Most of my projects begin with comparing the available off-the-shelf > options to a custom solution or a hybrid between the two. I explain to > clients that a custom solution will take longer to get going up front, but > in the future, customizations to off-the-shelf software will take about > three times longer than a comparable addition to the custom software. > There's just a lot more "stuff" to work through in those systems compared > to a system that was designed and built for one purpose. Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know how to leverage it properly. Any system worth its salt will make add-ons easier to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do much of the hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries available that already do most of what you want, than a completely custom system. That's assuming you know how to leverage that particular system properly, of course, which is where "experience with platform X" comes in. It works for languages, too. I'm a skilled PHP programmer with a decade of experience. I've worked in a number of other languages, too. I could probably pick up enough C# to be at least moderately productive in a month or so. I don't expect I'd actually be any GOOD at it for at least a year, because a different language/framework/platform requires such a different mental model that takes time to develop. And that's assuming the language/framework/platform is any good. I've worked with systems where it didn't really matter how good I was, the end product was going to be crap because the underlying foundation was crap. There's no way I could have changed that without rewriting the underlying foundation, which of course budget didn't allow. :-) -- Larry Garfield la...@ga... |
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From: matt d. <mm_...@ya...> - 2009-09-14 14:04:31
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It would help if the following occured more often: Drupal? Sorry- No thanks. Smarty? Uh- no thanks again. Magento? Ha- good luck. chiPHPug-discuss mailing list chi...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss |
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From: Janine S. <jr...@ba...> - 2009-09-15 01:14:40
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matt donohue wrote: > It would help if the following occured more often: > Drupal? Sorry- No thanks. > Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal? Janine |
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From: matt d. <mm_...@ya...> - 2009-09-15 12:39:57
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Just my opinion! Larry can sell you on merits. I think frameworks like Drupal are designed to minimize what a developer can do and I prefer a more flexible, smaller framework that empowers. It's generally a sign the company does not value (or trust) developers and would rather swap them in like sparkplugs. Probably for good reasons! Also- any code in a database is a deal-breaker for me. If you like developing in web forms then have at it. I also read a good article once about 'green' development which states the case that heavy frameworks or declarative languages like Ruby are pretty wasteful enviroment wise. CPU's = heat, heat = cooling, cooling = wasted energy. ________________________________ From: Janine Starykowicz <jr...@ba...> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:47:53 PM Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job matt donohue wrote: > It would help if the following occured more often: > Drupal? Sorry- No thanks. > Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal? Janine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf _______________________________________________ chiPHPug-discuss mailing list chi...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss |
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From: Arlo L. <ar...@ar...> - 2009-09-14 23:36:10
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Hello, > Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know how > to leverage it properly. Any system worth its salt will make add-ons easier > to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do much of the > hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries available that already > do most of what you want, than a completely custom system. That's assuming > you know how to leverage that particular system properly, of course, which is > where "experience with platform X" comes in. Most of my customizations have been with systems like OSCommerce or Wordpress. Sometimes plug-ins are available; most of the time they are abandoned and no longer compatible. I spend the majority of my time in these systems simply finding the code that I need to modify to get the desired functionality. They tend to have layers and layers of files that aren't organized in any obvious way, so I'm constantly doing multi-file searches to try and locate the needed code. In some cases they have redundant code, so I make a change in one part of the system, then later I have to go back and change it again somewhere else. I guess in my own mind I was thinking those systems were "crap" when I was working with them, but they're both too popular to avoid. I did a project with a social networking system called Handshakes that had all the right features to get started, but its code was scattered all over the place. It used classes for the major sections of the system, but most of the functionality wasn't in the classes. And some of the code -- this took me a long time to figure out -- is stored in the database, so it wasn't even coming up in my searches. After two years of updating the project, I have a pretty good idea where to look for things, but I still have to do multi-file searches and go on scavenger hunts to find things. The custom systems I've seen, in contrast, don't get so big that they need more than two levels of directory structure, because they're not trying to provide every function that a mass-market audience requires. I'm not trying to say one approach is always better than the other, but the overall effort required can be pretty similar. Anyway, a couple years ago I did a project with Wordpress and a project with vBulletin at the same time, using the "hooks" in both systems, and the difference was striking. I was able to do everything I needed in vBulletin without touching its code, but I had to make about two dozen Wordpress hacks in places where hooks weren't available. So there's obviously a wide range of malleability with these systems, and it's hard to tell what you're getting until you dig in. Cheers, -Arlo _______________________________ Arlo Leach 773.769.6106 http://arlomedia.com |
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From: Larry G. <la...@ga...> - 2009-09-15 01:12:25
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On Monday 14 September 2009 6:35:33 pm Arlo Leach wrote: > Hello, > > > Only if the custom system you're working with is crap, or you don't know > > how to leverage it properly. Any system worth its salt will make add-ons > > easier to develop, because you can leverage good existing libraries to do > > much of the hard work for you or because there are add-on libraries > > available that already do most of what you want, than a completely custom > > system. That's assuming you know how to leverage that particular system > > properly, of course, which is where "experience with platform X" comes > > in. > > Most of my customizations have been with systems like OSCommerce or > Wordpress. Sometimes plug-ins are available; most of the time they are > abandoned and no longer compatible. I spend the majority of my time in > these systems simply finding the code that I need to modify to get the > desired functionality. They tend to have layers and layers of files that > aren't organized in any obvious way, so I'm constantly doing multi-file > searches to try and locate the needed code. In some cases they have > redundant code, so I make a change in one part of the system, then later I > have to go back and change it again somewhere else. I guess in my own mind > I was thinking those systems were "crap" when I was working with them, but > they're both too popular to avoid. I did experiment briefly with OSCommerce a few years ago, and ran screaming in terror. Just looking at the code took a few years off my life. It was like an entire application written specifically for Daily WTF. I will note my earlier caveat of "not being crap". :-) The catch is that in a good system, the code will be organized in a logical way, even if it's not immediately obvious. If it's learnable and logical, you'll be able to pick it up. Maybe not in a day or three, but any large system requires an investment of time to figure out how to use properly. > I did a project with a social networking system called Handshakes that had > all the right features to get started, but its code was scattered all over > the place. It used classes for the major sections of the system, but most > of the functionality wasn't in the classes. And some of the code -- this > took me a long time to figure out -- is stored in the database, so it > wasn't even coming up in my searches. After two years of updating the > project, I have a pretty good idea where to look for things, but I still > have to do multi-file searches and go on scavenger hunts to find things. > > The custom systems I've seen, in contrast, don't get so big that they need > more than two levels of directory structure, because they're not trying to > provide every function that a mass-market audience requires. I'm not trying > to say one approach is always better than the other, but the overall effort > required can be pretty similar. You may want to look into component frameworks like Zend, CodeIgnighter, etc. rather than "full stack" frameworks and extensible applications like Drupal, WordPress, Cake, et al. If what you want is "just the bits I need HERE and nothing else with a fully custom workflow", that's going to be much closer to what you need and can still save you a lot of time debugging and sorting out all of the common security holes. Honestly I don't trust custom systems to be secure. There's too many ways to make something insecure if you don't have a common system that handles it for you. (Rasmus has said as much before publicly, and Google's Chris Messina has as well.) > Anyway, a couple years ago I did a project with Wordpress and a project > with vBulletin at the same time, using the "hooks" in both systems, and the > difference was striking. I was able to do everything I needed in vBulletin > without touching its code, but I had to make about two dozen Wordpress > hacks in places where hooks weren't available. So there's obviously a wide > range of malleability with these systems, and it's hard to tell what you're > getting until you dig in. True, that's what a mixture of research and experimentation gets you. I'd argue that in that regard, vBulletin is the "better" system if your metric of "better" is extensibility. If your metric is "out of the box does something useful without thinking", then WordPress is pretty darned good. Of course, I'm a Drupal core developer so I have a biased opinion on how important extensibility is. :-) (Drupal's extensibility is scary at times, and there's an army of people who will show up at your house to beat the crap out of you if you "hack core" in order to get something done. <g>) -- Larry Garfield la...@ga... |
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From: Jason R. <ja...@ho...> - 2009-09-15 15:49:19
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As someone who just spent 3 months helping a team put drupal into production and 2 weeks replacing it I can tell you that Drupal has a very narrow use-case where it shines. It is NOT a general framework that can help you build a web app by any wild stretch of the imagination. It is not even a good CMS for simple needs. What Drupal is good at is being a complex CMS that is heavily integrated into business operations that are content-centric. Its not for the casual content editor or blogger. Drupal is a perfect case to illustrate Matt's point. Drupal is good at a particular thing and if you are doing that thing it can be great. But as you deviate from that thing there is an almost exponential increase in difficulty trying to make it work. I personally dislike frameworks as most of them tend to give you a lot of rope, allow you to to tie knots very quickly and help you up on to the gallows with shiny buttons. They tend to encourage bad architecture design patterns while emphasizing language semantics and details. Hearing developers get hot and bothered about cool programming models a particular framework encourages is a lot like seeing people get excited about the shiny brass on the Titanic. That is _not_ to say that code-reuse is bad or that you should always invent the wheel yourself but usually frameworks go to far without going far enough (meaning the whole architecture not just language constructs). I'm a BIG fan of libraries and components and code generators.. anything to help you get the job done more efficiently. [looks around].... how'd I end up on this soap box?.. [quickly steps down] matt donohue wrote: > Just my opinion! Larry can sell you on merits. > I think frameworks like Drupal are designed to minimize what a developer can do and I prefer a more flexible, smaller framework that empowers. > It's generally a sign the company does not value (or trust) developers and would rather swap them in like sparkplugs. Probably for good reasons! > Also- any code in a database is a deal-breaker for me. If you like developing in web forms then have at it. > > I also read a good article once about 'green' development which states the case that heavy frameworks or declarative languages like Ruby are pretty wasteful enviroment wise. CPU's = heat, heat = cooling, cooling = wasted energy. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Janine Starykowicz <jr...@ba...> > To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...> > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:47:53 PM > Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job > > matt donohue wrote: >> It would help if the following occured more often: >> Drupal? Sorry- No thanks. >> > > Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal? > > Janine > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss |
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From: Neil R. <Nei...@rc...> - 2009-09-16 02:10:48
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Thank you! I seem to have a minority opinion of drupal. It's terrific at what it does, but it as sharp edges. Cross the line, and you're in for some serious work, with uncertain guidance and support. At 08:45 AM 9/15/2009, Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> wrote: >As someone who just spent 3 months helping a team put drupal into >production and 2 weeks replacing it I can tell you that Drupal has a >very narrow use-case where it shines. > >It is NOT a general framework that can help you build a web app by any >wild stretch of the imagination. It is not even a good CMS for simple >needs. What Drupal is good at is being a complex CMS that is heavily >integrated into business operations that are content-centric. Its not >for the casual content editor or blogger. Neil -- Nei...@rc... In the beginning there was nothing. God said, 'Let there be light!' And there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it a whole lot better. -- Ellen DeGeneres |
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From: matt d. <mm_...@ya...> - 2009-09-16 04:01:04
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Thanks Jason- To Janine- I would say yes, you probabaly need to know some Drupal or Magento or some hook to get started but don't let those things color your world. Your goal should be to get to some place where your problem solving skills shine. Not your abillity to utlilize a framework. Here's my longer rant- It's been decided. If you don't get a negative response in 12 hours you are 100% correct. Always. (although Richard will still reply about 1 week later) I concurred at exactly September 15, 2009 8:45:03 AM. Having hacked Drupal to get some simple ajax working. I won't comment on what I saw reading the code since there's vested parties on this list. Obviously big frameworks are easy to beat up on because they're easier to sell and consequently everywhere. Ad Agencies can't sell individual programmers- they need to sell a brand. So, sexy names like Drupal take root even though there's nothing great under the covers. Not that there isn't good work there somewhere. Programmers would be wise to fight this. I do. DISCLAIMER/CLAIMER- I work at home 5 days a week, I'm repsonsible for a large in-house ERP system that I only touch for big projects. I'm lazy, although I work 16 hour days. I mostly train jr devs from scratch on this system. They like it when they finally understand it 6 months later. Otherwise they think they are drowning. I have a dog that is high maintenance. I've written more java and C# than anything lately (for billed projects) although that doesn't make me think anything less of PHP. I have an Ethiopian Coffee plant that enjoys the Chicago climate. I'm spacey and look up simple things like str_replace. I don't consider myself a great programmer but think I make up for it by writing super basic code that just fucking works. I have OCD and that's key to trying something for the 100th time before it works because sometimes it takes me that long. I've done side projects using Drupal and I'm NOT a fan. Not that I haven't read a few million lines of various code at this point in my life to have perspective. Our ERP system is 900K lines and I've read it twice(?) There's ugly there but it's hard to rip ERP code out unless you're adventurous. I do know shit from shinola and I yes, I am an old. ________________________________ From: Jason Rexilius <ja...@ho...> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:45:02 AM Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job As someone who just spent 3 months helping a team put drupal into production and 2 weeks replacing it I can tell you that Drupal has a very narrow use-case where it shines. It is NOT a general framework that can help you build a web app by any wild stretch of the imagination. It is not even a good CMS for simple needs. What Drupal is good at is being a complex CMS that is heavily integrated into business operations that are content-centric. Its not for the casual content editor or blogger. Drupal is a perfect case to illustrate Matt's point. Drupal is good at a particular thing and if you are doing that thing it can be great. But as you deviate from that thing there is an almost exponential increase in difficulty trying to make it work. I personally dislike frameworks as most of them tend to give you a lot of rope, allow you to to tie knots very quickly and help you up on to the gallows with shiny buttons. They tend to encourage bad architecture design patterns while emphasizing language semantics and details. Hearing developers get hot and bothered about cool programming models a particular framework encourages is a lot like seeing people get excited about the shiny brass on the Titanic. That is _not_ to say that code-reuse is bad or that you should always invent the wheel yourself but usually frameworks go to far without going far enough (meaning the whole architecture not just language constructs). I'm a BIG fan of libraries and components and code generators.. anything to help you get the job done more efficiently. [looks around].... how'd I end up on this soap box?.. [quickly steps down] matt donohue wrote: > Just my opinion! Larry can sell you on merits. > I think frameworks like Drupal are designed to minimize what a developer can do and I prefer a more flexible, smaller framework that empowers. > It's generally a sign the company does not value (or trust) developers and would rather swap them in like sparkplugs. Probably for good reasons! > Also- any code in a database is a deal-breaker for me. If you like developing in web forms then have at it. > > I also read a good article once about 'green' development which states the case that heavy frameworks or declarative languages like Ruby are pretty wasteful enviroment wise. CPU's = heat, heat = cooling, cooling = wasted energy. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Janine Starykowicz <jr...@ba...> > To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...> > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:47:53 PM > Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] PHP / Magento Job > > matt donohue wrote: >> It would help if the following occured more often: >> Drupal? Sorry- No thanks. >> > > Can you explain why to a relative newbie who is considering Drupal? > > Janine > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf _______________________________________________ chiPHPug-discuss mailing list chi...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss |
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From: Neil R. <Nei...@rc...> - 2009-09-11 21:44:33
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We're the *last* people you have to convince. Tell us how to explain it to a "Human Relations professional"! At 03:33 PM 9/11/2009, Zachary Wilson <zw...@gu...> wrote: >At the end of the day, it's PHP. If you're a good developer any >platform/framework/software written in PHP is managable. > > >-Zach > > >On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Richard Lynch <ce...@l-...> wrote: > > I don't think Magento experience is all that common. > > > > On Thu, September 10, 2009 9:19 pm, Neil Rest wrote: > >> This opening has been advertised steadily for a month or two at > >> least. I don't know if they're looking for something rare, or are > >> just hard to please. > >> > >> > >> At 12:42 PM 9/10/2009, "Richard Lynch" <ce...@l-...> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>-------------------------- Original Message > >>> -------------------------- > >>>Subject: per our conversation > >>>From: "Kathleen Coughlin" <kco...@ly...> > >>>Date: Wed, September 9, 2009 4:33 pm > >>>To: "ri...@l-..." <ri...@l-...> > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>>Rich > >>>Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you sending this along to > >>>your group! > >>> > >>>I attached some info on our firm and here is some info below on what > >>>we are looking for. We have 2 immediate projects starting up and need > >>>a Lead Developer to join our team for these projects and will have > >>>many more to come. > >>> > >>>Must have > >>> > >>> * 3+ Years of PHP and MySQL development and ZEND framework > >>> * Magento knowledge > >>> * Experience developing in a LAMP environment > >>> * Excellent skills in Open Source technology > >>> * Previous ecommerce experience preferred > >>> * Outstanding communication skills written and verbal > >>> * Local to Chicagoland area > >>> * Ability to work under pressure > >>> * Team player and motivated by timelines > >>> * Open ERP experience is a HUGE plus > >>> > >>>Lyons Consulting Group is an equal opportunity employer. Please > >>> submit > >>>resume for immediate review > >>> > >>> > >>>Kathleen Coughlin : Recruiting Manager > >>>T 312.506.2017 : M 773.616.4981 : F 312.506.2022 > >>>kco...@ly...<mailto:kco...@ly...> > >>> > >>>LYONS CONSULTING GROUP > >>>405 W. Superior Street, Suite 300 > >>>Chicago, IL 60654 > >>>www.lyonscg.com<http://www.lyonscg.com> > >>>blog.lyonscg.com > >>>http://www.linkedin.com/in/coughlin77 > >> Neil -- Nei...@rc... Being desirous of allaying the dissension's of party strife now existing within our realm, [I] do hereby dissolve and abolish the Democratic and Republican parties, and also do hereby decree the disfranchisement and imprisonment, for not more than ten, nor less than five years, to all persons leading to any violation of this our imperial decree. -- Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico San Francisco Herald, August 4, 1869 |
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