Thread: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] chiPHPug-discuss Digest, Vol 39, Issue 1

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Thanks for your input, guys.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 5:42 PM, <
chi...@li...> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring? (Bryan Fagan)
>   2. Re: Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring? (matt donohue)
>   3. Re: Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring? (Anacreo)
>   4. Re: Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring? (matt donohue)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:44:58 -0500
> From: Bryan Fagan <bry...@gm...>
> Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity
>        mentoring?
> To: chi...@li...
> Message-ID:
>        <9ec...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello, All.
>
> A recruiter recently told me that one of her clients--who was specifically
> looking for a PHP developer--said that my code sample didn't show the level
> of "maturity" that the client was looking for. Hmmm, ok. Can anyone help me
> on my path to maturity with some constructive criticism of my code sample?
>
> I thought my code through and imagined it to be pretty good stuff, but
> evidently I've got some growing to do. I certainly cannot claim to be a PHP
> expert, but experience and reading have brought me through enough levels of
> bad and immature code hell to imagine that I am well into the intermediate
> range. I originally considered providing classes from my portfolio website,
> which is a Zend Framework-based MVC setup with an XML database, but decided
> instead to write a small command-line application from scratch so that a
> potential employer could run it with as few setup hassles and snags as
> possible. I set out to make sure that I included the following elements,
> which generally constitute what I believe to be indicative of mature PHP
> code:
>
> * standard OOP principles, including high decoupling and good
> encapsulation,
> inheritance, polymorphism, composition, and aggregation
> * most PHP 5 OOP features, including interfaces, abstract classes, and
> exception handling
> * use of design patterns
> * use of SPL and an external code library (Zend Framework, in this case)
> * file, stream, and XML handling
> * Zend coding standard
> * E_STRICT cleanliness
>
> That's a pretty good checklist, right? And almost all of it made it in. So
> is the problem in the execution? Is it that I didn't do it "test first" and
> include the unit tests (that's a skill I'm still working on)? Questions,
> comments, concerns?
>
> I'd appreciate as much insight as anyone has to offer. I'm not asking so
> much for help with a re-write as for help understanding what is immature
> about the code or the project as a whole--and what I need to understand and
> learn to do to have any recruiter think, "Damn, this guy's good! Bring him
> in."
>
> If you're interested in this mentoring task--or just want to point and
> laugh--you can download the zipped-up code from my professional website at
> the address http://bryanfagan.info/documents/Bryan_Fagan_Code_Sample.zipand
> open it with the password "super good password".
>
> Bryan Fagan
>
> P.S. I am woefully unemployed, so if you see my stuff and know of someone
> looking for a LAMP developer who might think anything even close to "this
> guy's good," I would be eternally grateful if you'd pass on my contact
> information or send me a link as appropriate.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: matt donohue <mm_...@ya...>
> Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity
>        mentoring?
> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...>
> Message-ID: <753...@we...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hey Bryan,
>
> Excellent question.
>
> I would bet the vacations days (I don't get to take) that they never got
> too far into your code.
> Just my opinion- but, when people ask for code samples they want original
> examples exclusively.
> I think less is always more when it comes to code samples (offer more
> later!) and (again) I would ONLY show original code and specifically
> examples of solving real world problems (not conceptual applications).
> Small code?chunks (3 or 4 max) of larger classes, modules?or utility
> classes that demonstrate your coding methods or philosophy dealing with
> actual problems.
> (I mix my samples with utility functions, class methods and even
> Javascript, AJAX and JSON.)
> Generally you would tailor the samples you choose?based on?the job
> description and you would describe why you chose the examples
> and how they fit into the the position you are applying for.
> Think of the hiring questions they would be asking? Can he work with a
> large existing code base. Is he good?working with a?database?
> Is he more of a back-end developer or does he know CSS, AJAX and
> Javascript? Can he work on his own or does he need supervision?
> Do you: borrow code, use frameworks extensively, have your developed your
> own framework/class base?
> The real question you should answer for them is?how will YOU solve their
> problems.
> If you don't have a long work history this is difficult and could be the
> reason they would mention maturity.
> I would say offhand, your example is asking a lot from the prospective
> employee. Not that it doesn't demonstrate a thorough understanding of PHP
> concepts.
> It's more thorough than I code.
> I (personally) would never dig through a code sample like that to hire
> someone.
> You don't mention your work experience but, if it is minimal I would say
> the odds of getting a job requiring code samples is limited.
> That's not a mentoring position which, is what I believe you would want? No
> one is going to hire someone who can 'conceptually' do the job for something
> more front-line. So, in that vein I'm thinking your in-between a bubble of
> not being an intern/trainee but, without enough 'real' experience to cement
> a Jr Dev position.
> Generally- code samples are a sanity check, and not why you are actually
> hired.
> Even with years of experience you'll find you are under qualified for some
> positions and over qualified for others so, I wouldn't dwell on it much and
> keep trying.
>
> I can send you an old example of a cover letter and code samples for
> reference- email me. I'm sure they are embarassing.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bryan Fagan <bry...@gm...>
> To: chi...@li...
> Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 12:44:58 PM
> Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring?
>
> Hello, All.
>
> A recruiter recently told me that one of her clients--who was specifically
> looking for a PHP developer--said that my code sample didn't show the level
> of "maturity" that the client was looking for. Hmmm, ok. Can anyone help me
> on my path to maturity with some constructive criticism of my code sample?
>
> I thought my code through and imagined it to be pretty good stuff, but
> evidently I've got some growing to do. I certainly cannot claim to be a PHP
> expert, but experience and reading have brought me through enough levels of
> bad and immature code hell to imagine that I am well into the intermediate
> range. I originally considered providing classes from my portfolio website,
> which is a Zend Framework-based MVC setup with an XML database, but decided
> instead to write a small command-line application from scratch so that a
> potential employer could run it with as few setup hassles and snags as
> possible. I set out to make sure that I included the following elements,
> which generally constitute what I believe to be indicative of mature PHP
> code:
>
> * standard OOP principles, including high decoupling and good
> encapsulation,
> inheritance, polymorphism, composition, and aggregation
> * most PHP 5 OOP features, including interfaces, abstract classes, and
> exception handling
> * use of design patterns
> * use of SPL and an external code library (Zend Framework, in this case)
> * file, stream, and XML handling
> * Zend coding standard
> * E_STRICT cleanliness
>
> That's a pretty good checklist, right? And almost all of it made it in. So
> is the problem in the execution? Is it that I didn't do it "test first" and
> include the unit tests (that's a skill I'm still working on)? Questions,
> comments, concerns?
>
> I'd appreciate as much insight as anyone has to offer. I'm not asking so
> much for help with a re-write as for help understanding what is immature
> about the code or the project as a whole--and what I need to understand and
> learn to do to have any recruiter think, "Damn, this guy's good! Bring him
> in."
>
> If you're interested in this mentoring task--or just want to point and
> laugh--you can download the zipped-up code from my professional website at
> the address http://bryanfagan.info/documents/Bryan_Fagan_Code_Sample.zipand
> open it with the password "super good password".
>
> Bryan Fagan
>
> P.S. I am woefully unemployed, so if you see my stuff and know of someone
> looking for a LAMP developer who might think anything even close to "this
> guy's good," I would be eternally grateful if you'd pass on my contact
> information or send me a link as appropriate.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:58:51 -0500
> From: Anacreo <an...@gm...>
> Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity
>        mentoring?
> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...>
> Message-ID:
>        <69c...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I couldn't agree with Matt's response more... if they just said the code
> was
> not mature enough, they probably didn't think the example was appropriate.
>  Did they give you a few example problems and ask for you to resolve them
> or
> did you just provide some code samples out of a portfolio?
> Do you want to provide one or two of your examples and maybe we could give
> you some examples of how to solve the problem?
>  Some things that drive me nuts when hiring:
>    *  "Young" programmers who think they're so cool because they've
> mastered the ternary operator, : ?, and use it to illegibility -- honestly
> don't bother using it at all...
>    *  Mixed variable and formatting styles within your code, shows a lot of
> cut and paste action...
>    *  No variable style at all -- Pick a standard and use it...
>    *  Skipping language constructs, don't skip ;'s {}'s ()'s or []'s...
>    *  Code repetition -- if you're repeating the same code chances are you
> shouldn't be...
>  And finally code commenting...
>    Every procedure, variable, and
> definition should be clearly commented with EXACTLY what it does.
>
>  At the end of the day OOP vs non-OOP doesn't matter so much to ME as much
> as some other people stress it, if you write clear fundamentally good code,
> you'll get the job over someone who doesn't have OOP examples or not...
>
>
> Also is there ingenuity in the code...  The one thing that drives me batty
> is hard coded code... if you can make it extensible do it...  Drawing a
> table?, make it as dynamic, robust and extensible as possible so it can be
> the foundation of future work... If you have something that goes beyond
> just
> standard work that defines your abilities you may try something like that
> (even in a somewhat raw state).
>
> Alec
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 3:01 PM, matt donohue <mm_...@ya...> wrote:
>
> > Hey Bryan,
> >
> > Excellent question.
> >
> > I would bet the vacations days (I don't get to take) that they never got
> > too far into your code.
> > Just my opinion- but, when people ask for code samples they want original
> > examples exclusively.
> > I think less is always more when it comes to code samples (offer more
> > later!) and (again) I would ONLY show original code and specifically
> > examples of solving real world problems (not conceptual applications).
> > Small code chunks (3 or 4 max) of larger classes, modules or utility
> > classes that demonstrate your coding methods or philosophy dealing with
> > actual problems.
> > (I mix my samples with utility functions, class methods and even
> > Javascript, AJAX and JSON.)
> > Generally you would tailor the samples you choose based on the job
> > description and you would describe why you chose the examples
> > and how they fit into the the position you are applying for.
> > Think of the hiring questions they would be asking? Can he work with a
> > large existing code base. Is he good working with a database?
> > Is he more of a back-end developer or does he know CSS, AJAX and
> > Javascript? Can he work on his own or does he need supervision?
> > Do you: borrow code, use frameworks extensively, have your developed your
> > own framework/class base?
> > The real question you should answer for them is how will YOU solve their
> > problems.
> > If you don't have a long work history this is difficult and could be the
> > reason they would mention maturity.
> > I would say offhand, your example is asking a lot from the prospective
> > employee. Not that it doesn't demonstrate a thorough understanding of PHP
> > concepts.
> > It's more thorough than I code.
> > I (personally) would never dig through a code sample like that to hire
> > someone.
> > You don't mention your work experience but, if it is minimal I would say
> > the odds of getting a job requiring code samples is limited.
> > That's not a mentoring position which, is what I believe you would want?
> No
> > one is going to hire someone who can 'conceptually' do the job for
> something
> > more front-line. So, in that vein I'm thinking your in-between a bubble
> of
> > not being an intern/trainee but, without enough 'real' experience to
> cement
> > a Jr Dev position.
> > Generally- code samples are a sanity check, and not why you are actually
> > hired.
> > Even with years of experience you'll find you are under qualified for
> some
> > positions and over qualified for others so, I wouldn't dwell on it much
> and
> > keep trying.
> >
> > I can send you an old example of a cover letter and code samples for
> > reference- email me. I'm sure they are embarassing.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bryan Fagan <bry...@gm...>
> > To: chi...@li...
> > Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 12:44:58 PM
> > Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring?
> >
> > Hello, All.
> >
> > A recruiter recently told me that one of her clients--who was
> specifically
> > looking for a PHP developer--said that my code sample didn't show the
> level
> > of "maturity" that the client was looking for. Hmmm, ok. Can anyone help
> me
> > on my path to maturity with some constructive criticism of my code
> sample?
> >
> > I thought my code through and imagined it to be pretty good stuff, but
> > evidently I've got some growing to do. I certainly cannot claim to be a
> PHP
> > expert, but experience and reading have brought me through enough levels
> of
> > bad and immature code hell to imagine that I am well into the
> intermediate
> > range. I originally considered providing classes from my portfolio
> website,
> > which is a Zend Framework-based MVC setup with an XML database, but
> decided
> > instead to write a small command-line application from scratch so that a
> > potential employer could run it with as few setup hassles and snags as
> > possible. I set out to make sure that I included the following elements,
> > which generally constitute what I believe to be indicative of mature PHP
> > code:
> >
> > * standard OOP principles, including high decoupling and good
> > encapsulation,
> > inheritance, polymorphism, composition, and aggregation
> > * most PHP 5 OOP features, including interfaces, abstract classes, and
> > exception handling
> > * use of design patterns
> > * use of SPL and an external code library (Zend Framework, in this case)
> > * file, stream, and XML handling
> > * Zend coding standard
> > * E_STRICT cleanliness
> >
> > That's a pretty good checklist, right? And almost all of it made it in.
> So
> > is the problem in the execution? Is it that I didn't do it "test first"
> and
> > include the unit tests (that's a skill I'm still working on)? Questions,
> > comments, concerns?
> >
> > I'd appreciate as much insight as anyone has to offer. I'm not asking so
> > much for help with a re-write as for help understanding what is immature
> > about the code or the project as a whole--and what I need to understand
> and
> > learn to do to have any recruiter think, "Damn, this guy's good! Bring
> him
> > in."
> >
> > If you're interested in this mentoring task--or just want to point and
> > laugh--you can download the zipped-up code from my professional website
> at
> > the address
> http://bryanfagan.info/documents/Bryan_Fagan_Code_Sample.zipand
> > open it with the password "super good password".
> >
> > Bryan Fagan
> >
> > P.S. I am woefully unemployed, so if you see my stuff and know of someone
> > looking for a LAMP developer who might think anything even close to "this
> > guy's good," I would be eternally grateful if you'd pass on my contact
> > information or send me a link as appropriate.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: matt donohue <mm_...@ya...>
> Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity
>        mentoring?
> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...>
> Message-ID: <779...@we...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Coding styles!
>
> Rich topic...
> I don't comment code much- I expect it to be explicit enough with the var
> names and such and?commenting DOES take a lot of time (although you can
> argue not commenting takes others more time).
> I sorta think- (unless there's math involved) your code should be
> understandable on it's own.
> That said- here are my legacy code/new developer?peeves:
> Referencing a variable or function that's included somewhere not apparent
> and not commenting where it's defined.
> Having variables not clearly delineated in the code like "some
> html<?=$junk?>that rambles"
> Similarly-?clear spacing between any variables or statements.
> for(i=1;1<$garbage;$1+=) is not acceptable!
> Variables that are not descriptive or conform to the code base's standard:
> $company - is an object.
> $companyRow or $arr_company - is an array from db.
> (I'm guilty of mixing camel case and underscores so I can't complain here)
> And Alec's lament double trued- code repition. Has this been done before?
> Could it be?moved into a class?
> This happens a billion times over with javascript which, is the buggiest
> anyway so it's triple bad.
> That one will make me pop off.
> Confess- I love ternary!
> -Rant Off-
>
> I do one thing though I don't see a lot elsewhere-
> When I have specific code blocks for one 'domain' (if you will) in a work
> file, I use centered comments because it's easier to scan mulitple blocks
> that way.
> //--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> this be special code block for?ar
> holds?-------------------------------------------------------------------->>
>
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Anacreo <an...@gm...>
> To: Chicago PHP User Group <chi...@li...>
> Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 3:58:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity
> mentoring?
>
> I couldn't agree with Matt's response more... if they just said the code
> was
> not mature enough, they probably didn't think the example was appropriate.
> Did they give you a few example problems and ask for you to resolve them or
> did you just provide some code samples out of a portfolio?
> Do you want to provide one or two of your examples and maybe we could give
> you some examples of how to solve the problem?
> ? Some things that drive me nuts when hiring:
> ? ? *? "Young" programmers who think they're so cool because they've
> mastered the ternary operator, : ?, and use it to illegibility -- honestly
> don't bother using it at all...
> ? ? *? Mixed variable and formatting styles within your code, shows a lot
> of
> cut and paste action...
> ? ? *? No variable style at all -- Pick a standard and use it...
> ? ? *? Skipping language constructs, don't skip ;'s {}'s ()'s or []'s...
> ? ? *? Code repetition -- if you're repeating the same code chances are you
> shouldn't be...
> ? And finally code commenting...
> ? ? Every procedure, variable, and
> definition should be clearly commented with EXACTLY what it does.
>
> ? At the end of the day OOP vs non-OOP doesn't matter so much to ME as much
> as some other people stress it, if you write clear fundamentally good code,
> you'll get the job over someone who doesn't have OOP examples or not...
>
>
> Also is there ingenuity in the code...? The one thing that drives me batty
> is hard coded code... if you can make it extensible do it...? Drawing a
> table?, make it as dynamic, robust and extensible as possible so it can be
> the foundation of future work... If you have something that goes beyond
> just
> standard work that defines your abilities you may try something like that
> (even in a somewhat raw state).
>
> Alec
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 3:01 PM, matt donohue <mm_...@ya...> wrote:
>
> > Hey Bryan,
> >
> > Excellent question.
> >
> > I would bet the vacations days (I don't get to take) that they never got
> > too far into your code.
> > Just my opinion- but, when people ask for code samples they want original
> > examples exclusively.
> > I think less is always more when it comes to code samples (offer more
> > later!) and (again) I would ONLY show original code and specifically
> > examples of solving real world problems (not conceptual applications).
> > Small code chunks (3 or 4 max) of larger classes, modules or utility
> > classes that demonstrate your coding methods or philosophy dealing with
> > actual problems.
> > (I mix my samples with utility functions, class methods and even
> > Javascript, AJAX and JSON.)
> > Generally you would tailor the samples you choose based on the job
> > description and you would describe why you chose the examples
> > and how they fit into the the position you are applying for.
> > Think of the hiring questions they would be asking? Can he work with a
> > large existing code base. Is he good working with a database?
> > Is he more of a back-end developer or does he know CSS, AJAX and
> > Javascript? Can he work on his own or does he need supervision?
> > Do you: borrow code, use frameworks extensively, have your developed your
> > own framework/class base?
> > The real question you should answer for them is how will YOU solve their
> > problems.
> > If you don't have a long work history this is difficult and could be the
> > reason they would mention maturity.
> > I would say offhand, your example is asking a lot from the prospective
> > employee. Not that it doesn't demonstrate a thorough understanding of PHP
> > concepts.
> > It's more thorough than I code.
> > I (personally) would never dig through a code sample like that to hire
> > someone.
> > You don't mention your work experience but, if it is minimal I would say
> > the odds of getting a job requiring code samples is limited.
> > That's not a mentoring position which, is what I believe you would want?
> No
> > one is going to hire someone who can 'conceptually' do the job for
> something
> > more front-line. So, in that vein I'm thinking your in-between a bubble
> of
> > not being an intern/trainee but, without enough 'real' experience to
> cement
> > a Jr Dev position.
> > Generally- code samples are a sanity check, and not why you are actually
> > hired.
> > Even with years of experience you'll find you are under qualified for
> some
> > positions and over qualified for others so, I wouldn't dwell on it much
> and
> > keep trying.
> >
> > I can send you an old example of a cover letter and code samples for
> > reference- email me. I'm sure they are embarassing.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bryan Fagan <bry...@gm...>
> > To: chi...@li...
> > Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 12:44:58 PM
> > Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] Anyone up for code sample maturity mentoring?
> >
> > Hello, All.
> >
> > A recruiter recently told me that one of her clients--who was
> specifically
> > looking for a PHP developer--said that my code sample didn't show the
> level
> > of "maturity" that the client was looking for. Hmmm, ok. Can anyone help
> me
> > on my path to maturity with some constructive criticism of my code
> sample?
> >
> > I thought my code through and imagined it to be pretty good stuff, but
> > evidently I've got some growing to do. I certainly cannot claim to be a
> PHP
> > expert, but experience and reading have brought me through enough levels
> of
> > bad and immature code hell to imagine that I am well into the
> intermediate
> > range. I originally considered providing classes from my portfolio
> website,
> > which is a Zend Framework-based MVC setup with an XML database, but
> decided
> > instead to write a small command-line application from scratch so that a
> > potential employer could run it with as few setup hassles and snags as
> > possible. I set out to make sure that I included the following elements,
> > which generally constitute what I believe to be indicative of mature PHP
> > code:
> >
> > * standard OOP principles, including high decoupling and good
> > encapsulation,
> > inheritance, polymorphism, composition, and aggregation
> > * most PHP 5 OOP features, including interfaces, abstract classes, and
> > exception handling
> > * use of design patterns
> > * use of SPL and an external code library (Zend Framework, in this case)
> > * file, stream, and XML handling
> > * Zend coding standard
> > * E_STRICT cleanliness
> >
> > That's a pretty good checklist, right? And almost all of it made it in.
> So
> > is the problem in the execution? Is it that I didn't do it "test first"
> and
> > include the unit tests (that's a skill I'm still working on)? Questions,
> > comments, concerns?
> >
> > I'd appreciate as much insight as anyone has to offer. I'm not asking so
> > much for help with a re-write as for help understanding what is immature
> > about the code or the project as a whole--and what I need to understand
> and
> > learn to do to have any recruiter think, "Damn, this guy's good! Bring
> him
> > in."
> >
> > If you're interested in this mentoring task--or just want to point and
> > laugh--you can download the zipped-up code from my professional website
> at
> > the address
> http://bryanfagan.info/documents/Bryan_Fagan_Code_Sample.zipand
> > open it with the password "super good password".
> >
> > Bryan Fagan
> >
> > P.S. I am woefully unemployed, so if you see my stuff and know of someone
> > looking for a LAMP developer who might think anything even close to "this
> > guy's good," I would be eternally grateful if you'd pass on my contact
> > information or send me a link as appropriate.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > chi...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
> >
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
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>
> End of chiPHPug-discuss Digest, Vol 39, Issue 1
> ***********************************************
>