chiphpug-discuss

[chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Steven <coo...@ya...>]

This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their for=
ums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site from =
scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding, beta=
 testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're go=
ing to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks. Whatever=
 those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website and coul=
dn't understand what the heck they were talking about.=0A=0AOf course, some=
one decides to step in and mention that it could simply be done in PHP, but=
 much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of a flame war in=
 which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP and considers=
 it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely". And since they=
're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in: http://www.fur=
affinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=3D12643&pid=3D218320#pid218320=0A(Yes=
, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)=0A=0AWhat I find strangest is that these pr=
ogramming staff members seem to know infinitely more than I do about progra=
mming. Yet they are so close-minded on PHP that they'll re-write their enti=
re website and forum from the ground up using frameworks and a language tha=
t's more for PC programming rather than in a language designed for the web?=
=0A=0AThis is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in program=
ming as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do =
they see something I don't?=0A=0AI'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any mer=
it at all. What does PHP have that other languages doesn't that makes it wo=
rth using. Does PHP even have any advantages to other languages?=0A=0AYou g=
uys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy access to,=
 so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my 'native'=
 language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to stand on sh=
ould I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned above.=0A =
=0A~Amaroq Wolf=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A      _______________________________________=
_____________________________________________=0AFussy? Opinionated? Impossi=
ble to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://=
surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=3D7 =0A

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Neil Y. <ny...@as...>]

In my experience many programmers' preferences for which language is =
like a
religion.  There are zealots and fanatics of nearly every language you =
can
find and Python is one that draws a fanatical following.  Often the =
language
that is prominent for similar tasks gets their disdain.  That is why you
often see Ruby on Rails, Python, and to a lesser extent Java supporters
attacking PHP. =20

As for some of PHP's merits, it is an easy to use web scripting language
supported on nearly every server platform available and is well =
integrated
with Apache and MySQL.  It tends to run fast with little overhead, so it
scales well, even on mediocre hardware.  It shares a lot of its basic =
syntax
with C and Java, which makes it easy for programmers to transition to.  =
It
has excellent documentation and a large user community to look to for =
help.

But really, the choice of a language should be determined by what works =
best
for the project, the skills of the programmers available, and what kind =
of
integration it will have with existing code.  Python may be a better =
choice
for their project if that is the language that their core group of
developers is comfortable with and has a framework that serves them =
well.

Neil




-----Original Message-----
From: chi...@li...
[mailto:chi...@li...] On Behalf Of =
Steven
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:15 PM
To: chi...@li...
Subject: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be =
coding,
beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that =
they're
going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's =
website
and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.

Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply =
be
done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the =
verge of
a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes =
PHP
and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written =
nicely".
And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step =
in:
http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=3D12643&pid=3D218320#=
pid2183
20
(Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)

What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to =
know
infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so =
close-minded on
PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground =
up
using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather =
than
in a language designed for the web?

This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in =
programming as
they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they =
see
something I don't?

I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have =
that
other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have =
any
advantages to other languages?

You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy =
access
to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I =
mentioned
above.
=20
~Amaroq Wolf




=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user =
panel
and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=3D7=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

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Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Anacreo <an...@gm...>]

I'm kind of afraid of posting first as the bashing can come... but as has
been discussed on this forum almost every language has its place.  For
instance for this PDF flow that I'm doing I'm using bourne scripts, PHP
scripts, and Perl scripts.  They each have their place.  If I want to parse
an XML file and do a bunch of business logic (using large memory arrays) I
choose PHP.  If I want to edit 200mb+ files in a stream binary safe and have
them go out to multiple files I use Perl, and if I just need simple shell
scripts to glue it all together I use bourne.

Where does Python fit into this?  I don't know.  I have found PHP code to be
more readable then Python scripts, but that could just be the author.  PHP
code should be faster but startup could take longer -- Python should have a
smaller engine.  Python should be easier to embed like Tcl, so it gets a lot
more traction as an embedded scripting language.  I've seen Python used in
lots of control frameworks so it would probably be a good way to replace
bourne.

I also seriously doubt that Python has any where near the number of built in
"options" as PHP that make PHP a swiss army knife.  Perl's power comes from
its convenience features which makes it perfect for somethings (quck and
dirty) and horrible for others (large code base projects).

That's my 2 cents, let the bashing fly.

Alec

On 10/1/07, Steven <coo...@ya... > wrote:
>
> This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
> forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
> from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding,
> beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're
> going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
> Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website
> and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.
>
> Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply be
> done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of
> a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP
> and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely".
> And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in:
> http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=12643&pid=218320#pid218320
> (Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)
>
> What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to know
> infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so close-minded on
> PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground up
> using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather than
> in a language designed for the web?
>
> This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in programming
> as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they
> see something I don't?
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have
> that other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have
> any advantages to other languages?
>
> You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy
> access to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
> 'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
> stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned
> above.
>
> ~Amaroq Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Arlo L. <ar...@ar...>]

Hello,

> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have that
> other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have any
> advantages to other languages?

Compared to other languages and authoring tools I've used, and compared to
pre-built systems I've tried to customize, building from scratch with PHP
just works. It's so straightforward, the documentation is so good, and
online examples are so plentiful, that I feel productive all the time. With
other technologies, I'm always hitting dead ends, getting frustrated, and
pulling out my hair. This isn't very objective or quantifiable, but it's a
palpable difference for me.

I've been using PHP for seven years, so I know it better than other tools,
but I felt that way from the beginning ... it just works and I can get stuff
done. At the same time, I haven't outgrown it and I'm always learning new
things that it can do.

I keep seeing all these new technologies coming along, but with my personal
code library and Subversion I seem to have everything I need. The main
advantage the newer tools seem to offer is greater efficiency, but I don't
feel inefficient now, and I'm very sensitive to using time well. When I use
other tools, I do spend LOTS of time trying to get around them when
something goes wrong.

I guess the other advantage the newer tools offer is to somehow promote
better programming practices. But I believe good programming is a function
of the programmer, not the language or tool. I'm pretty sure an experienced,
disciplined programmer can build a better project with basic tools than an
undisciplined or inexperienced programmer with the hot new technology. You
can't buy good programming practices (or download them from an open-source
project)!

Cheers,
-Arlo

_______________________________

Arlo Leach
773.769.6106
http://arlomedia.com

Make friends with your computer
http://compyschool.com

Re: [chiPHPug-discuss] In defense of PHP

[Benjamin H. <ben...@gm...>]

Its not worth getting into a flamewar, they can get quite emotionally
charged!  For reasons I'm not exactly sure why, I've seen major eruptions
taking place across the internet lately over how one language or web
framework is better than the others.  Its interesting, and there are some
valid points that are made.  But I remember having read this article a few
years ago, and because of it, dismiss these discussions as being rather
petty.

As programmers we should have better problems to solve than which language
to use (though my patience is personally wearing quite thin for Java as my
employer is currently using JVM 1.3 which was released circa 2000).  There
are many that are used for developing web application solutions, and each do
have idiosyncrasies, some are pros for certain problems, some are cons.

Ultimately, there are few reasons why one technology is so vastly better
than the other alternatives (especially if the application in question is
already functioning in one of these "inferior" alternative languages) that
you have no choice but to use the "superior" language.  Sure in Python, the
philosophy is that if the functionality you're trying to implement is
getting complex, you're probably doing it the wrong way.  And in Ruby on
Rails, learning and adopting the convention of the "rails way" can save you
time and headaches (but don't dare deviate from this convention, which you
must break in certain programming problems negating the benefits of the
framework).  This is one way to not shoot yourself in the foot as a
programmer, and it is a handy characteristic of Python.  You can implement
coding practices, standards and methodologies that address this issue in
other languages or environments.  And sure, in PHP the comparison operators
might not be intuitive or the most elegant, or the interpreter have some
shortcomings, or version 5 might not be compatible with version 4, or the
database functions not be consistent between engines though these
shortcomings does not preclude a programmer from developing nifty solutions
within PHP.  There are plenty of examples of good software and well designed
websites which rely on PHP.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Also, a more prudent approach to the "one language vs another", if that is
truly the question that must be answered, is the programming language
popularity index.  It stands to reason that between Python and PHP, PHP will
arguably be easier to attract contributors due to the community of abled PHP
programmers being larger!  Same with Ruby/RoR.

http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

That being said, I think using C for web development is a bad idea.

Also and on topic, SitePoint recently published the results of their survey
"The State of Web Development 2006/2007"  It is very interesting, some of
the methodology I question, but a great overview of what people are doing.
It does show an overwhelming large base of PHP developers of their sample
group.

Ben

On 10/1/07, Steven <coo...@ya...> wrote:
>
> This art hosting site that I'm a member of has started a topic on their
> forums announcing that they're going to be redesigning their entire site
> from scratch and that they're looking for volunteers, whether it be coding,
> beta testing, whatever. The current head programmer has decided that they're
> going to do it in Python using the Pylons and SQLAlchemy frameworks.
> Whatever those are. I tried reading some of the Pylons framework's website
> and couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about.
>
> Of course, someone decides to step in and mention that it could simply be
> done in PHP, but much to my irritation, that sparks a debate on the verge of
> a flame war in which every programming staff member of that site bashes PHP
> and considers it a horrible language that "resists being written nicely".
> And since they're so close-minded about it, I of course decide to step in:
> http://www.furaffinityforums.net/showthread.php?tid=12643&pid=218320#pid218320
> (Yes, it's furaffinity. *chuckles*)
>
> What I find strangest is that these programming staff members seem to know
> infinitely more than I do about programming. Yet they are so close-minded on
> PHP that they'll re-write their entire website and forum from the ground up
> using frameworks and a language that's more for PC programming rather than
> in a language designed for the web?
>
> This is confusing. How can someone become as knowledgeable in programming
> as they apparently are yet not see how good PHP is for web things? Do they
> see something I don't?
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if PHP has any merit at all. What does PHP have
> that other languages doesn't that makes it worth using. Does PHP even have
> any advantages to other languages?
>
> You guys are probably the closest to a PHP authority that I have easy
> access to, so I pose the above question to you guys. Reinforce my view of my
> 'native' language being a good one. Or at least give me some grounds to
> stand on should I need to defend PHP in a debate like the one I mentioned
> above.
>
> ~Amaroq Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft
> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> chiPHPug-discuss mailing list
> chi...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss
>