Menu
▾
▴
chiphpug-discuss
|
From: Jennifer S. <jen...@gm...> - 2007-05-23 15:06:13
|
> Remember you get what you pay for. And conversely, you get (the job) they > pay you for. > > [OK, I'm done b$^ching) > > Walter I normally wouldn't reply to this, but I should clarify that yes it is hourly and that your math is incorrect. On the high end of the pay range we are offering, the programmer would make close to $70K a year, which is more than your calculated $1250 a month. |
|
From: Anacreo <an...@gm...> - 2007-05-23 15:23:08
|
While I do agree with the financials Walter layed out in my personal situation, not everyone has the same situation. I don't think that in that range Jennifer will garner a top PHP programmer but if she makes the offer and she gets someone that's fantastic for her company. I'll tell you working for the last 10 years in corporate America, the best people tend to be the ones who don't ask for the most money because they carae more about the job and less about the moolah. I know plenty of people who earned more money then I did while working in nice corporate jobs and weren't worth their weight in any substance I knew of, and that includes air. My 2 cents. Alec On 5/23/07, Jennifer Stander <jen...@gm...> wrote: > > > Remember you get what you pay for. And conversely, you get (the job) > they > > pay you for. > > > > [OK, I'm done b$^ching) > > > > Walter > > I normally wouldn't reply to this, but I should clarify that yes it is > hourly and that your math is incorrect. On the high end of the pay > range we are offering, the programmer would make close to $70K a year, > which is more than your calculated $1250 a month. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > |
|
From: Arlo L. <ar...@ar...> - 2007-05-23 15:55:38
|
Normally I would say, "If the pay is too low for you, just don't take the job," but this really rang true for me: > It's so sad. And you know what's even sadder? They'll find someone who > will take this job. And chances are that person will not be all that > talented, so > "management" distrusts developers even more, adds more restrictions and > requirements on the next guy, usually driving the cost even lower. > > Can't tell you how many times I've been asked to "clean up" a project > because "they" went cheap, and then told my they didn;t have the budget to > do much because they blew it on the first guy. I think offering an entry-level wage is fine if an employer is prepared to have an entry-level person. If the employer isn't knowledgeable enough to offer a wage appropriate to the experience level, or to evaluate the experience level in their candidates, that's a problem. This isn't about Jennifer at all, just a general comment about what I've seen in my own work. One thing I will often try to do, though, is move the conversation away from the hourly rate to a total cost estimate. If I can do something in 1/4 the time for twice the rate, then I'm still half as expensive as the other guy. Most clients will respond well to honest conversations like that. By the way, I hired a plumber to come fix my garbage disposal a while back, and his hourly rate was over 1.5x mine ... maybe we're all in the wrong business! (smile) Cheers, -Arlo _______________________________ Arlo Leach 773.769.6106 http://arlomedia.com Find. Be Found. http://www.newwhitepages.com |
|
From: Jough D. <jou...@gm...> - 2007-05-23 19:27:22
|
I think Walter's point was that even the high range of this contract is *well* below the average rate for a local developer. On 5/23/07, Arlo Leach <ar...@ar...> wrote: > > Normally I would say, "If the pay is too low for you, just don't take the > job," but this really rang true for me: > > > It's so sad. And you know what's even sadder? They'll find someone who > > will take this job. And chances are that person will not be all that > > talented, so > > "management" distrusts developers even more, adds more restrictions and > > requirements on the next guy, usually driving the cost even lower. > > > > Can't tell you how many times I've been asked to "clean up" a project > > because "they" went cheap, and then told my they didn;t have the budget > to > > do much because they blew it on the first guy. > > I think offering an entry-level wage is fine if an employer is prepared to > have an entry-level person. If the employer isn't knowledgeable enough to > offer a wage appropriate to the experience level, or to evaluate the > experience level in their candidates, that's a problem. This isn't about > Jennifer at all, just a general comment about what I've seen in my own > work. > > One thing I will often try to do, though, is move the conversation away > from > the hourly rate to a total cost estimate. If I can do something in 1/4 the > time for twice the rate, then I'm still half as expensive as the other > guy. > Most clients will respond well to honest conversations like that. > > By the way, I hired a plumber to come fix my garbage disposal a while > back, > and his hourly rate was over 1.5x mine ... maybe we're all in the wrong > business! (smile) > > Cheers, > -Arlo > > _______________________________ > > Arlo Leach > 773.769.6106 > http://arlomedia.com > > Find. Be Found. > http://www.newwhitepages.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > -- Jough Dempsey http://jough.com 312.399.6379 (mobile) |
|
From: Richard L. <ce...@l-...> - 2007-05-23 21:45:15
|
On Wed, May 23, 2007 10:55 am, Arlo Leach wrote: > By the way, I hired a plumber to come fix my garbage disposal a while > back, > and his hourly rate was over 1.5x mine ... maybe we're all in the > wrong > business! (smile) Kinda depends how fast he fixed it, and how well the job was done. :-) -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? |
|
From: Richard L. <ce...@l-...> - 2007-05-23 21:54:12
|
On Wed, May 23, 2007 10:06 am, Jennifer Stander wrote: >> Remember you get what you pay for. And conversely, you get (the job) >> they >> pay you for. >> >> [OK, I'm done b$^ching) >> >> Walter > > I normally wouldn't reply to this, but I should clarify that yes it is > hourly and that your math is incorrect. On the high end of the pay > range we are offering, the programmer would make close to $70K a year, > which is more than your calculated $1250 a month. Anybody in this group who pays attention also has two former employees (I'm one of them) that they could ask for background info. For me, info.com was a great place to work, for many reasons. The hourly wages offered in Jennifer's post had a pretty wide range, presumably commensurate with experience, so I also thought the math was a bit skewed by taking the "average" of 23 and 33. If you're worth $33/hour == $66k/year (give or take) that was on the table in the original email. Keep in mind this is for a solid 40 hours a week, not some catch-as-catch-can freelance rate, where you may only have 10 billable hours a month. There's a huge difference in scope and scale there, so hourly freelance rates, and hourly full-time rates are apples and oranges. Be that as it may, if you're right for the job, and it appeals, I daresay you can upsell your price some anyway. Three years' experience is not exactly "expert", imho. Maybe some folks became experts in 3 years, but not most. Hell, most PHP scripters don't get past a basic guestbook in their first year :-) :-) :-) -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? |
|
From: phpWalter <php...@to...> - 2007-05-23 22:25:37
|
I must apologize to the group, and to Jennifer. I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of affairs of the economy and the development community at large. Walter |
|
From: Anacreo <an...@gm...> - 2007-05-23 22:35:33
|
Regarding that... boy am I impressed with the video tours of Ruby on Rails... I can't believe I'm going to start learning another language... Has anyone endeavored down that road and have any thoughts about the Rails framework? On 5/23/07, phpWalter <php...@to...> wrote: > > I must apologize to the group, and to Jennifer. > > I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. > > This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of affairs of > the economy and the development community at large. > > Walter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > |
|
From: Jason R. <ja...@ho...> - 2007-05-23 23:05:32
|
I dont think the rant was overboard, but I do hope Jennifer wasn't offended. I personally think the rate is low and am also a little tired of the midwest penchant for trying to low ball on PHP because its not an "enterprise" language. In the Bay Area the dollar rate may be low for a position and that means they're looking for college kid or newbie who can jell with a team or some such. All that being said, peoples points about environment making up for the difference can be valid. Also, even if they are a "meta" search engine, its still good on the resume as they do push a lot of numbers. phpWalter wrote: > I must apologize to the group, and to Jennifer. > > I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. > > This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of affairs of > the economy and the development community at large. > > Walter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss |
|
From: Keith C. <mai...@ca...> - 2007-05-23 22:45:15
|
On 5/23/07, phpWalter <php...@to...> wrote: > I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. > This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of affairs of > the economy and the development community at large. The odd thing is that here on the DC PHP list - I'm the lead mod - we had a similar explosion last week. It started from a single recruiter posting a silly ad, a few people ranted, and it grew from there. I think we - the community as a whole - is in this position where those of us who went through the 2000-2003 timeframe trying to get/keep a job are a bit burned, some of the companies looking to hire are a bit clueless, and recruiters step in the middle. Some of them are clueless, some of them aren't and just have clueless clients... but it's not good for anyone involved. My 0.02, kc -- D. Keith Casey Jr. CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC http://CaseySoftware.com |
|
From: Richard L. <ce...@l-...> - 2007-05-24 17:47:26
|
On Wed, May 23, 2007 5:44 pm, Keith Casey wrote: > On 5/23/07, phpWalter <php...@to...> wrote: >> I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. >> This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of >> affairs of >> the economy and the development community at large. > > The odd thing is that here on the DC PHP list - I'm the lead mod - we > had a similar explosion last week. It started from a single recruiter > posting a silly ad, a few people ranted, and it grew from there. > > I think we - the community as a whole - is in this position where > those of us who went through the 2000-2003 timeframe trying to > get/keep a job are a bit burned, some of the companies looking to hire > are a bit clueless, and recruiters step in the middle. Some of them > are clueless, some of them aren't and just have clueless clients... > but it's not good for anyone involved. I personally have given up on Recruiters, for my own personal purposes. I have no objection to posting their Job Offers, but I'm not likely to ever work with one again... I've never had a good experience with a recruiter, personally, in my half-dozen or so interactions. I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a good one, but I'm not willing to spend any more time trying to figure out the good from the bad, when they all sound good at first. As far as pricing and the dot-boom, dot-bomb, and dot-boom 2.0 goes, I'd have to say that prices are going up steadily at this point, and certainly there seems to be a lot more work. I daresay it's even more SENSIBLE work available than in the heyday of dot-boom -- Though the ridiculous no-chance-of-long-term-success glut of the dot-boom added in changes that. But I'd take less work with better chances of success over the IPO VC zero to sixty to zero glut any day. -- Some people have a "gift" link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? |
|
From: Hank M. <hma...@gm...> - 2007-05-23 22:57:19
|
I Love Rails ... done several production jobs at this point and all I can say is that if you like CakePHP, you'll simply be blown away by Rails. I still code php as needed and at my regular gig, but given a choice at this point I'll do Rails any day. There are a couple downsides ... the execution model isn't multi-threaded so your headed back to CGI land basically. There are some very nice deployment scenarios for Rails but none of them are as easy as copying some files to an apache server running mod_php and have it just work. Try it, you'll like it, but you may be spoiled. On 5/23/07, Anacreo <an...@gm...> wrote: > > Regarding that... boy am I impressed with the video tours of Ruby on > Rails... I can't believe I'm going to start learning another language... > Has anyone endeavored down that road and have any thoughts about the Rails > framework? > > On 5/23/07, phpWalter <php...@to...> wrote: > > > > I must apologize to the group, and to Jennifer. > > > > I should not have "ranted' like that. It was out of place. > > > > This is not the venue to share my frustration at the state of affairs of > > the economy and the development community at large. > > > > Walter > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > > chi...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > chiPHPug-discuss mailing list > chi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiphpug-discuss > |
×
Want the latest updates on software, tech news, and AI?
Get latest updates about software, tech news, and AI from SourceForge directly in your inbox once a month.
Thanks for helping keep SourceForge clean.
X