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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-07-15 04:07:05
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Well, a challenging perspective! I do have 2 copies of BP1 source on 5 1/4 floppy disks. Unfortunately I was careless not to transfer them to Mac while using Kermit to migrate writings and various data… There was little hope of emulation software in those days and the incentive was to "move on". Keeping the floppy disks was a mere sentimental support. ;-) Now we have 2 options: 1) Find a 5 1/4 floppy disk drive with USB port and I do the transfer. That is my prefered option though at the moment I only see 3 1/2 inch drives. 2) In case you have this drive, I send you one of the two floppy disks in a safe package — still risky due to security scanners. Still, I am confident that these 143 Kb disks remain readable. This would include a data floppy disk which Kippen was using in field work. I also have 2 floppy disks of the compiled version and one of the Big Mac compiler. All these are supposed to run on Apple II 64Kb. Ten years ago I tried to run BP1 before offering Jim Kippen's Apple IIc to a colleague. I was able launch it but did not remember any of the commands! It is quite hard to return to a mouseless computer handled via its keyboard… Borrowing the Apple IIc (in case he still owns it) would not be useful because it did not have an external drive and I don't have a copy program that would duplicate floppies on a single drive. Can we solve the 5 1/4 floppy drive problem? Bernard Anthony Kozar wrote on 15/07/2020 04:39: > > Not a stupid impression at all, Rainer! I was (mostly jokingly) > suggesting that it would be fun and cool if BP3 could be made to run > on some member of the Apple II family. ^_^ > > I suggested the IIgs because its memory can be extended up to at least > 8 MB. An 800k binary would not even fit in the memory of the other > Apple IIs. It also has a 16-bit microprocessor running at 2.7 Mhz > (IIRC). And I know that there were C compilers available for it. > > I would expect those ancient compilers to be totally incapable of > compiling BP3 though. So, unless some hobbyists have created a GCC > cross-compiler for the IIgs, my idea is probably just a crazy dream. > > I actually still own my family's Apple IIgs! I have an assembler for > it too but not a C compiler. So, if anyone were to attempt this > crazed idea, it should probably be me. However, my machine only has > 512k memory. But there is no need to actually own the hardware. > There are software emulators for the whole Apple II family that work > very well and run on all modern computers. An emulated Apple IIgs > could be maxed out with memory, four disk drives, and even a 32 MB > hard drive! (I think that was the limit supported by ProDOS 16). > > By the way, the Apple IIgs hardware had an emulation mode under which > it behaved almost identically to an Apple IIe and it supported both > 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" floppies, so DOS 3.3 is no problem for it. > > Bernard, have you ever transferred the BP1 program files to a Mac? I > think it would be cool for the 40th anniversary to make a screenshot > showing all three (or four) generations of Bol Processor running on > the same computer simultaneously. BP1 and BP2 on Mac OS Classic could > be run in emulators while the Carbon and console versions run natively > on Mac OS X! ^_^ > > If not, I could transfer BP1 from my IIgs to my beige PowerMac G3 > assuming that I could get a copy of the original floppy disk. ;-) > > Anthony > > On Jul 14, 2020 1:20 PM, Rainer Schütz <rs...@ba...> wrote: > > > > > On 14. Jul 2020, at 18:32, Bernard Bel <ber...@gm...> wrote: > > > > Yes, but Apple IIgs runs the Prodos system, not the initial DOS 3.3 > on which Bol Processor had been compiled. > > > > Bernard > > > Good to know, thanks! I was under the (likely stupid) impression that > Anthony thought it might be fun to try and backport BP3 to the Apple > IIgs - so to say to overstretch the cross-platform idea symbolically, > and try to span almost all of BPs history with version 3... ;) > .r. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: <rs...@ba...> - 2020-07-15 11:08:39
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> Can we solve the 5 1/4 floppy drive problem? Something like this might be cheaper and safer than shipping a disk: https://www.ebay.de/itm/APPLE-II-DISK-II-Floppy-Drive-525-Model-A2M0003-Tested-Working-01/264754815254?hash=item3da49de116:g:3DsAAOSwNQNe2sdg <https://www.ebay.de/itm/APPLE-II-DISK-II-Floppy-Drive-525-Model-A2M0003-Tested-Working-01/264754815254?hash=item3da49de116:g:3DsAAOSwNQNe2sdg> |
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From: <rs...@ba...> - 2020-07-15 11:13:32
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And sorry for bombarding the list: But Bernard, you TOTALLY need to write that book! Somebody has to put you in chains to do it, if necessary! .r. > On 15. Jul 2020, at 13:08, Rainer Schütz <*@igong.co> wrote: > >> Can we solve the 5 1/4 floppy drive problem? > > Something like this might be cheaper and safer than shipping a disk: > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/APPLE-II-DISK-II-Floppy-Drive-525-Model-A2M0003-Tested-Working-01/264754815254?hash=item3da49de116:g:3DsAAOSwNQNe2sdg <https://www.ebay.de/itm/APPLE-II-DISK-II-Floppy-Drive-525-Model-A2M0003-Tested-Working-01/264754815254?hash=item3da49de116:g:3DsAAOSwNQNe2sdg> > |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-07-15 12:39:16
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Good link! We would also need the proper power supply plus a USB controller: http://shop.deviceside.com/prod/FC5025 Maybe the USB controller does power the disk drive… Bernard Rainer Schütz wrote on 15/07/2020 13:08: >> Can we solve the 5 1/4 floppy drive problem? > > Something like this might be cheaper and safer than shipping a disk: > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/APPLE-II-DISK-II-Floppy-Drive-525-Model-A2M0003-Tested-Working-01/264754815254?hash=item3da49de116:g:3DsAAOSwNQNe2sdg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-07-29 14:27:36
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Back to the project of running BP1 in Apple II emulation… I have been able to buy a 5 1/4" floppy disk unit in good shape for only 50 euros. My aim is now to borrow an Apple II form a fan user and copy the disks to new supports. Then I would send these copies to Anthony by Fedex in a carefully sealed package. The friend to whom I had given my IIc has disposed of it… (He's still my friend!) A second-hand IIc is sold about 400 to 800 euros on eBay, this would be too much! However I discovered a Facebook group "Apple II France" and I am sending them a request for borrowing a machine for, say, 1/2 hour to copy the floppies. They seem to be very active, using oscilloscopes and soldering irons to repare their machines - like in the old good days. If one of them lives in a reachable area, I will take the next step of duplication, using the recent disk unit. Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-07-31 21:53:58
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Via the Facebook group of Apple II fans, I found a chap who lives in Marseille and will help me to duplicate the BP1 floppy disks. They suggest to create disk images that will travel safely. I'll see if he is equipped for it. He has a huge workshop with plenty of old machines! I will visit him after 15 August. Yes, this is "holiday" in France for most people, including retired ones. ;-) We also expect viruses and other annoying beings to be on holiday! I'll certainly read all messages regularly and take action when necessary… Next I have to include Csound objects in the drawing of images. For the time being they appear with duration = 0… See you all soon on virtual space Bernard Bernard Bel wrote on 29/07/2020 16:27: > Back to the project of running BP1 in Apple II emulation… > > I have been able to buy a 5 1/4" floppy disk unit in good shape for only > 50 euros. My aim is now to borrow an Apple II form a fan user and copy > the disks to new supports. Then I would send these copies to Anthony by > Fedex in a carefully sealed package. > > The friend to whom I had given my IIc has disposed of it… (He's still my > friend!) A second-hand IIc is sold about 400 to 800 euros on eBay, this > would be too much! > > However I discovered a Facebook group "Apple II France" and I am sending > them a request for borrowing a machine for, say, 1/2 hour to copy the > floppies. They seem to be very active, using oscilloscopes and soldering > irons to repare their machines - like in the old good days. If one of > them lives in a reachable area, I will take the next step of > duplication, using the recent disk unit. > > Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-18 03:54:22
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Hello fans of the Apple 2! With the help of Philippe M. in Marseille, all floppy disks of Bol Processor BP1 dating back to 1980 have been duplicated. These include the source code in 6502, the binary program running on Apple 2 (64K) and sets of data — Jim Kippen's work on tabla improvisation in North India. Philippe also transfered 3 disks to "DSK" images which can be downloaded here: https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ The source+program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". We ran BP1 on an Apple II emulator. (Beware that the display is on 80 columns…) It all works fine even though I am no longer familiar with the interface! It will require an hour of training, remembering and documenting… This material could be used in a memorial meeting, next year, for celebrating 40 years of development on Bol Processor. :-) Bernard |
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From: Rainer S. <rs...@ba...> - 2020-08-18 12:31:50
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Fabulous!!! :D > On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:53, Bernard Bel <ber...@gm...> wrote: > > Hello fans of the Apple 2! > > With the help of Philippe M. in Marseille, all floppy disks of Bol Processor BP1 dating back to 1980 have been duplicated. These include the source code in 6502, the binary program running on Apple 2 (64K) and sets of data — Jim Kippen's work on tabla improvisation in North India. > > Philippe also transfered 3 disks to "DSK" images which can be downloaded here: > > https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ > > The source+program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". > > We ran BP1 on an Apple II emulator. (Beware that the display is on 80 columns…) It all works fine even though I am no longer familiar with the interface! It will require an hour of training, remembering and documenting… > > This material could be used in a memorial meeting, next year, for celebrating 40 years of development on Bol Processor. :-) > > Bernard > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-18 18:32:02
Attachments:
BP1-emulation.png
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Despite other urgent tasks I couldn't resist trying to run BP1 on a Mac. Yesterday we had already checked it on a virtual Apple II under Windows. I installed the first emulator found by a search engine: https://www.virtualii.com/ and paid the cheapest license (around 19 euros). It took a while finding ROMs for intalling the Apple II's system. On the machine it was a piece of hardware. Finally I dowloaded "apple2_roms.zip" from: https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/emulators/rom_images/ and dragged the Apple_iie ROM to the ROM folder of the application, then ran "create a new machine" to create an Apple IIe. I vaguely remember this is the minimum setup to display 80 columns. Then I called "Insert a diskette image" telling it should go to drive 1 and selected "BP-PRG.DSK". The program started. When it asked for a data disk, I selected again drive 1 and uploaded "BP-OCT88.DSK". Probably it is necessary to click the "drive 1" image as shown on the enclosed picture to instruct the machine we still want to use it… Having 2 drives doesn't really matter because BP1 had been designed for a single drive of the AppleIIc. The program is held in the upper RAM and the program disk can be replaced with a data disk. Look at the attached picture proving I was able to load "Grammar Q.6.6 version 36"! Frankly I haven't been able to do much with it because I have forgotten most procedures. Still, I managed to edit the grammar and play with the editor which is pure 6502 code. I will work with Jim Kippen to set up a real demo of all features and document it on the website. The fun with this emulator is that it runs at the exact speed on an Apple II and even produces the sounds of floppy disks spinning in drives! It can also be set to run faster. The illusion is complete because the temperature in the South of France is the same as in India 40 years ago. :-/ Bernard Bel ---------- Hello fans of the Apple 2! With the help of Philippe M. in Marseille, all floppy disks of Bol Processor BP1 dating back to 1980 have been duplicated. These include the source code in 6502, the binary program running on Apple 2 (64K) and sets of data — Jim Kippen's work on tabla improvisation in North India. Philippe also transfered 3 disks to "DSK" images which can be downloaded here: https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ The source+program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". We ran BP1 on an Apple II emulator. (Beware that the display is on 80 columns…) It all works fine even though I am no longer familiar with the interface! It will require an hour of training, remembering and documenting… This material could be used in a memorial meeting, next year, for celebrating 40 years of development on Bol Processor. :-) Bernard |
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From: Rainer S. <rs...@ba...> - 2020-08-18 18:38:29
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> On 18. Aug 2020, at 20:31, Bernard Bel <ber...@gm...> wrote: > > The illusion is complete because the temperature in the South of France is the same as in India 40 years ago. :-/ This soo cool! Just need some virtual sand! Love .r. |
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From: Anthony K. <mai...@an...> - 2020-08-18 22:35:05
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DEAR BERNARD, THIS IS INCREDIBLY COOL!!! I'M RUNNING BP1 RIGHT NOW ON A VIRTUAL APPLE IIE. (Oops! I don't have to use all caps on my Mac ;-) I was able to load "Grammar Q.6.6 version 36" too after some trial and error with the emulator program. Then I got stuck in the grammar editor for awhile before I figured out that the menu commands in the editor require the Control key. I really don't know what I'm doing but it is fascinating! :) I found some of the Apple II emulators and tools that I used to use 20 years ago when I had a long bout of nostalgia for everything from my childhood. The following are on Sourceforge and GitHub, so free and open source. Catakig (II,II+,IIe,IIc) http://catakig.sourceforge.net/ KEGS (IIgs only) http://kegs.sourceforge.net/ Jace (IIe in Java) https://github.com/badvision/jace AppleCommander (disk image utility) https://applecommander.github.io/ I don't think Catakig or KEGS have been updated in a long while and they may not be the best emulators out there. (I think "Bernie II the Rescue" was my favorite IIgs emulator). But Catakig is working OK for me so far. (BP1 couldn't read the data files when I had the same disk in both drives, but ejecting the disk in drive 2 fixed that. Probably an issue with Catakig...) I set the emulator to x6 speed because I was feeling impatient. :) I'm looking forward to playing with BP1 some more and learning how to use it! THANKS SO MUCH for making the journey to copy disks and for posting the disk images!! Anthony On 8/18/20, 2:31 PM, Bernard Bel wrote: > Despite other urgent tasks I couldn't resist trying to run BP1 on a Mac. > Yesterday we had already checked it on a virtual Apple II under Windows. > > I installed the first emulator found by a search engine: > https://www.virtualii.com/ > > and paid the cheapest license (around 19 euros). > > It took a while finding ROMs for intalling the Apple II's system. On the > machine it was a piece of hardware. > > Finally I dowloaded "apple2_roms.zip" from: > https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/emulators/rom_images/ > > and dragged the Apple_iie ROM to the ROM folder of the application, then > ran "create a new machine" to create an Apple IIe. I vaguely remember > this is the minimum setup to display 80 columns. > > Then I called "Insert a diskette image" telling it should go to drive 1 > and selected "BP-PRG.DSK". The program started. When it asked for a data > disk, I selected again drive 1 and uploaded "BP-OCT88.DSK". > > Probably it is necessary to click the "drive 1" image as shown on the > enclosed picture to instruct the machine we still want to use it… Having > 2 drives doesn't really matter because BP1 had been designed for a > single drive of the AppleIIc. The program is held in the upper RAM and > the program disk can be replaced with a data disk. > > Look at the attached picture proving I was able to load "Grammar Q.6.6 > version 36"! > > Frankly I haven't been able to do much with it because I have forgotten > most procedures. Still, I managed to edit the grammar and play with the > editor which is pure 6502 code. I will work with Jim Kippen to set up a > real demo of all features and document it on the website. > > The fun with this emulator is that it runs at the exact speed on an > Apple II and even produces the sounds of floppy disks spinning in > drives! It can also be set to run faster. > > The illusion is complete because the temperature in the South of France > is the same as in India 40 years ago. :-/ > > Bernard Bel > > ---------- > > Hello fans of the Apple 2! > > With the help of Philippe M. in Marseille, all floppy disks of Bol > Processor BP1 dating back to 1980 have been duplicated. These include > the source code in 6502, the binary program running on Apple 2 (64K) and > sets of data — Jim Kippen's work on tabla improvisation in North India. > > Philippe also transfered 3 disks to "DSK" images which can be downloaded > here: > > https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ > > The source+program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". > > We ran BP1 on an Apple II emulator. (Beware that the display is on 80 > columns…) It all works fine even though I am no longer familiar with the > interface! It will require an hour of training, remembering and documenting… > > > This material could be used in a memorial meeting, next year, for > celebrating 40 years of development on Bol Processor. :-) > > Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-19 05:08:17
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This is very encouraging! Next week I will post a tutorial on http://bolprocessor.org to explain how to install an emulator and start running BP1. Make it easier to find the Apple IIe ROM and "create" the machine, then how to insert diskettes in the proper "drive". I may suggest running one of the free-of-charge emulators. I tried catakig and it worked after figuring out (from their user guide) that you need to press the space bar to "switch it on" when snow appears on the screen. ;-) True, usage of the "control" key wasn't evident as it was the one located near the space bar… This latest version of BP1 was also making sounds in the Apple II speaker. This was fun but useless for research! With virtualii we can make sounds. I am not sure catakig will do it. I have not yet found the way of producing items! Jim Kippen probably will remember. Then we'll write a new tutorial. There was one in the past but it got lost, some AppleWriter file… I also plan return to Marseille and transfer more data disks. All these 40-year old floppy disks were read without difficulty! :-) Bernard Anthony Kozar wrote on 19/08/2020 00:34: > DEAR BERNARD, > > THIS IS INCREDIBLY COOL!!! I'M RUNNING BP1 RIGHT NOW ON A VIRTUAL > APPLE IIE. (Oops! I don't have to use all caps on my Mac ;-) > > I was able to load "Grammar Q.6.6 version 36" too after some trial and > error with the emulator program. Then I got stuck in the grammar > editor for awhile before I figured out that the menu commands in the > editor require the Control key. I really don't know what I'm doing > but it is fascinating! :) > > I found some of the Apple II emulators and tools that I used to use 20 > years ago when I had a long bout of nostalgia for everything from my > childhood. The following are on Sourceforge and GitHub, so free and > open source. > > Catakig (II,II+,IIe,IIc) http://catakig.sourceforge.net/ > KEGS (IIgs only) http://kegs.sourceforge.net/ > Jace (IIe in Java) https://github.com/badvision/jace > > AppleCommander (disk image utility) https://applecommander.github.io/ > > I don't think Catakig or KEGS have been updated in a long while and > they may not be the best emulators out there. (I think "Bernie II the > Rescue" was my favorite IIgs emulator). But Catakig is working OK for > me so far. (BP1 couldn't read the data files when I had the same disk > in both drives, but ejecting the disk in drive 2 fixed that. Probably > an issue with Catakig...) > > I set the emulator to x6 speed because I was feeling impatient. :) > > I'm looking forward to playing with BP1 some more and learning how to > use it! > > THANKS SO MUCH for making the journey to copy disks and for posting > the disk images!! > > Anthony > > > On 8/18/20, 2:31 PM, Bernard Bel wrote: >> Despite other urgent tasks I couldn't resist trying to run BP1 on a Mac. >> Yesterday we had already checked it on a virtual Apple II under Windows. >> >> I installed the first emulator found by a search engine: >> https://www.virtualii.com/ >> >> and paid the cheapest license (around 19 euros). >> >> It took a while finding ROMs for intalling the Apple II's system. On the >> machine it was a piece of hardware. >> >> Finally I dowloaded "apple2_roms.zip" from: >> https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/emulators/rom_images/ >> >> and dragged the Apple_iie ROM to the ROM folder of the application, then >> ran "create a new machine" to create an Apple IIe. I vaguely remember >> this is the minimum setup to display 80 columns. >> >> Then I called "Insert a diskette image" telling it should go to drive 1 >> and selected "BP-PRG.DSK". The program started. When it asked for a data >> disk, I selected again drive 1 and uploaded "BP-OCT88.DSK". >> >> Probably it is necessary to click the "drive 1" image as shown on the >> enclosed picture to instruct the machine we still want to use it… Having >> 2 drives doesn't really matter because BP1 had been designed for a >> single drive of the AppleIIc. The program is held in the upper RAM and >> the program disk can be replaced with a data disk. >> >> Look at the attached picture proving I was able to load "Grammar Q.6.6 >> version 36"! >> >> Frankly I haven't been able to do much with it because I have forgotten >> most procedures. Still, I managed to edit the grammar and play with the >> editor which is pure 6502 code. I will work with Jim Kippen to set up a >> real demo of all features and document it on the website. >> >> The fun with this emulator is that it runs at the exact speed on an >> Apple II and even produces the sounds of floppy disks spinning in >> drives! It can also be set to run faster. >> >> The illusion is complete because the temperature in the South of France >> is the same as in India 40 years ago. :-/ >> >> Bernard Bel >> >> ---------- >> >> Hello fans of the Apple 2! >> >> With the help of Philippe M. in Marseille, all floppy disks of Bol >> Processor BP1 dating back to 1980 have been duplicated. These include >> the source code in 6502, the binary program running on Apple 2 (64K) and >> sets of data — Jim Kippen's work on tabla improvisation in North India. >> >> Philippe also transfered 3 disks to "DSK" images which can be downloaded >> here: >> >> https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ >> >> The source+program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". >> >> We ran BP1 on an Apple II emulator. (Beware that the display is on 80 >> columns…) It all works fine even though I am no longer familiar with the >> interface! It will require an hour of training, remembering and >> documenting… >> >> >> This material could be used in a memorial meeting, next year, for >> celebrating 40 years of development on Bol Processor. :-) >> >> Bernard > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: Anthony K. <mai...@an...> - 2020-08-19 17:54:47
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Bernard, I have been able to figure out how to load, save, and edit (mostly) alphabets, data, and grammars. The interface is fairly intuitive and vaguely familiar after having used BP2. I like the "smart cursor" feature that skips over each bol/token with a single press of the arrow key! :) I have tried to derive something from a grammar but I am probably not understanding the correct way to do so. I'm also not sure what the lexical requirements are for variables and terminals. I created an alphabet with the symbols C4, D4, E4 ... C5, D5 and started creating a grammar with them, then it occurred to me that BP1 might think they are variables since it has no notion of simple notes (right?). So, I added q,w,e,r,t,y to my alphabet and finished my grammar like this: S --> C4 D4 E4 C4 --> q C4 r D4 --> w e D4 --> e w E4 --> t y E4 --> y t C4 --> D4 C4 --> E4 (I included spaces after each token in the alphabet. I don't know if that is valid but it does display the way I wanted it to in the Data & Grammar editors). When I select "Compute" from the Grammar menu, I am taken to the first data item and asked if I want to "Revise processing?". I don't know what that means. I reply "Y" to that and "Step by Step?" and then BP1 beeps and displays the item (unchanged) along with the menu "Q)uit P)rint R)epeat K)eep ..." Sometimes I get a different sequence of prompts for "Compute" including "First grammar?" and "Last grammar?" followed by the menu "A)nalyse S)ynthesize D)estroy structure ..." I reply with 1, 1, and S for Synthesize, "N" to "Create templates?" and "Systematic tree-search?", "Y" to "Step by Step?" and I'm back at the menu "Q)uit P)rint R)epeat K)eep ..." with no change or derivation of the item. (I performed these steps starting from the Data menu for an item containing only "S"). *shrug* There is no need for you to try to explain right now what is happening and where I am going wrong. As you said in your message, you "have not yet found the way of producing items!" either. ;-) I can wait until you have time to consult with Jim Kippen and/or to work it out on your own. I'm curious to hear what the "Sound" option does but I think you may be right that Catakig may not be fully functional in that area. I hear nothing when I choose that option from the menu. (But I also have no idea what sort of data is required for it to work). Well, BP1 is lots of fun. It's tempting to keep playing with it instead of working on other things. ;-) But there are issues to address in email and the BP3 code. Anthony P.S. I also had to read the Catakig User Guide just to figure out how to turn the Apple II on. Not very intuitive. :( On 8/19/20, 1:08 AM, Bernard Bel wrote: > This is very encouraging! > > Next week I will post a tutorial on http://bolprocessor.org to explain > how to install an emulator and start running BP1. Make it easier to find > the Apple IIe ROM and "create" the machine, then how to insert diskettes > in the proper "drive". > > I may suggest running one of the free-of-charge emulators. I tried > catakig and it worked after figuring out (from their user guide) that > you need to press the space bar to "switch it on" when snow appears on > the screen. ;-) > > True, usage of the "control" key wasn't evident as it was the one > located near the space bar… > > This latest version of BP1 was also making sounds in the Apple II > speaker. This was fun but useless for research! With virtualii we can > make sounds. I am not sure catakig will do it. > > I have not yet found the way of producing items! Jim Kippen probably > will remember. Then we'll write a new tutorial. There was one in the > past but it got lost, some AppleWriter file… > > I also plan return to Marseille and transfer more data disks. All these > 40-year old floppy disks were read without difficulty! :-) > > Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-19 18:11:59
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Yes, we'll need Jim's advice as I am equally confused! Your grammar looks correct in BP1 syntax. I am not sure that spaces are required and even allowed, because BP1 used to bind together terminal symbols and space only according to the specified tempo, if any, for instance "/4" to create blocks of 4 terminal symbols. I will document the setting up of the emulation so that Jim can easily set it up. I will then send him your message to ask for explanations. I won't upload the diskette of "Mr Robot" Apple II game, otherwise you might just stop doing anything else :-) Bernard Anthony Kozar wrote on 19/08/2020 19:54: > Bernard, > > I have been able to figure out how to load, save, and edit (mostly) > alphabets, data, and grammars. The interface is fairly intuitive and > vaguely familiar after having used BP2. I like the "smart cursor" > feature that skips over each bol/token with a single press of the > arrow key! :) > > I have tried to derive something from a grammar but I am probably not > understanding the correct way to do so. I'm also not sure what the > lexical requirements are for variables and terminals. I created an > alphabet with the symbols C4, D4, E4 ... C5, D5 and started creating a > grammar with them, then it occurred to me that BP1 might think they > are variables since it has no notion of simple notes (right?). So, I > added q,w,e,r,t,y to my alphabet and finished my grammar like this: > > S --> C4 D4 E4 > C4 --> q C4 r > D4 --> w e > D4 --> e w > E4 --> t y > E4 --> y t > C4 --> D4 > C4 --> E4 > > (I included spaces after each token in the alphabet. I don't know if > that is valid but it does display the way I wanted it to in the Data & > Grammar editors). > > When I select "Compute" from the Grammar menu, I am taken to the first > data item and asked if I want to "Revise processing?". I don't know > what that means. I reply "Y" to that and "Step by Step?" and then BP1 > beeps and displays the item (unchanged) along with the menu "Q)uit > P)rint R)epeat K)eep ..." > > Sometimes I get a different sequence of prompts for "Compute" > including "First grammar?" and "Last grammar?" followed by the menu > "A)nalyse S)ynthesize D)estroy structure ..." I reply with 1, 1, and > S for Synthesize, "N" to "Create templates?" and "Systematic > tree-search?", "Y" to "Step by Step?" and I'm back at the menu "Q)uit > P)rint R)epeat K)eep ..." with no change or derivation of the item. > (I performed these steps starting from the Data menu for an item > containing only "S"). *shrug* > > There is no need for you to try to explain right now what is happening > and where I am going wrong. As you said in your message, you "have > not yet found the way of producing items!" either. ;-) I can wait > until you have time to consult with Jim Kippen and/or to work it out > on your own. > > I'm curious to hear what the "Sound" option does but I think you may > be right that Catakig may not be fully functional in that area. I > hear nothing when I choose that option from the menu. (But I also > have no idea what sort of data is required for it to work). > > Well, BP1 is lots of fun. It's tempting to keep playing with it > instead of working on other things. ;-) But there are issues to > address in email and the BP3 code. > > Anthony > > P.S. I also had to read the Catakig User Guide just to figure out how > to turn the Apple II on. Not very intuitive. :( > > > On 8/19/20, 1:08 AM, Bernard Bel wrote: >> This is very encouraging! >> >> Next week I will post a tutorial on http://bolprocessor.org to explain >> how to install an emulator and start running BP1. Make it easier to find >> the Apple IIe ROM and "create" the machine, then how to insert diskettes >> in the proper "drive". >> >> I may suggest running one of the free-of-charge emulators. I tried >> catakig and it worked after figuring out (from their user guide) that >> you need to press the space bar to "switch it on" when snow appears on >> the screen. ;-) >> >> True, usage of the "control" key wasn't evident as it was the one >> located near the space bar… >> >> This latest version of BP1 was also making sounds in the Apple II >> speaker. This was fun but useless for research! With virtualii we can >> make sounds. I am not sure catakig will do it. >> >> I have not yet found the way of producing items! Jim Kippen probably >> will remember. Then we'll write a new tutorial. There was one in the >> past but it got lost, some AppleWriter file… >> >> I also plan return to Marseille and transfer more data disks. All these >> 40-year old floppy disks were read without difficulty! :-) >> >> Bernard > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: Anthony K. <mai...@an...> - 2020-08-19 18:54:59
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I appreciate that! I only quit the emulator a few minutes ago. I decided to recreate one of my favorite BASIC programs for "wowing" people back in the day... 10 HGR2 20 HCOLOR = RND(1)*8 30 HPLOT 140,96 TO RND(1)*280,RND(1)*192 40 GOTO 20 ;-) I was disappointed that I couldn't remember the command for drawing a line (HPLOT). Anthony On 8/19/20, 2:11 PM, Bernard Bel wrote: > I won't upload the diskette of "Mr Robot" Apple II game, otherwise you > might just stop doing anything else :-) |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-28 19:56:21
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I went again to Marseille on Thursday and transfered all my Apple II diskettes to DSK disk images, among which more data for BP1. You will find them here: https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ The program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". Data/grammar files are "BELFAST.DSK", "BP-JULY87.DSK", "BP-OCT88.DSK" and "BP-BB.DSK". The disk "BPSOURCES.DSK" contains all source files in 6502 machine language. If you are tempted to recompile BP1 you can download "BIGMAC.DSK" and then remind me how to edit/compile this code… ;-) I have forgotten the procedures that kept me busy for several years! Both Philippe M and I were amazed that these floppy disks dating back to 35 years were still perfectly readable. But his equipment (an Apple IIc) is also in perfect shape… To-morrow I will start writing an article on how to set up the emulator and run BP1. Later, Jim Kippen will figure out a demo making sense with this musical material (tabla composition/improvisation). Bernard |
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From: Anthony K. <mai...@an...> - 2020-08-29 11:06:41
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Bernard, Awesome! Thanks! :) You did have very good luck with your floppies. I should try reading some of mine. They have been in storage in my attic though which can get up to 100°F in the summer. :( I'm glad that you copied the BP1 source disk. I'm interested in looking at the code. (I was surprised that BP1 seems to be a combination of BASIC and 6502 assembly. I thought it was all assembly code). I purchased the Opus ][ software collection so I now have a complete suite of Apple II development tools. Most of the tools in that collection are only for the IIgs but there is a version of the ORCA/M assembler included for the Apple //e. It will be interesting to see if the BP1 code is compatible with ORCA/M or if it needs to be ported. I used ORCA/C tonight to compile my first C programs on the IIgs. ^_^ Lots of fun stuff to explore now... Anthony On 8/28/20, 3:56 PM, Bernard Bel wrote: > I went again to Marseille on Thursday and transfered all my Apple II > diskettes to DSK disk images, among which more data for BP1. You will > find them here: > > https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ > > The program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". Data/grammar files are > "BELFAST.DSK", "BP-JULY87.DSK", "BP-OCT88.DSK" and "BP-BB.DSK". > > The disk "BPSOURCES.DSK" contains all source files in 6502 machine > language. If you are tempted to recompile BP1 you can download > "BIGMAC.DSK" and then remind me how to edit/compile this code… ;-) I > have forgotten the procedures that kept me busy for several years! > > Both Philippe M and I were amazed that these floppy disks dating back to > 35 years were still perfectly readable. But his equipment (an Apple IIc) > is also in perfect shape… > > To-morrow I will start writing an article on how to set up the emulator > and run BP1. Later, Jim Kippen will figure out a demo making sense with > this musical material (tabla composition/improvisation). > > Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-29 13:03:30
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My floppies had been stored in ordinary cardboard boxes, yet in a very temperate and dry climate. I was only keeping them to show that they had existed — to people who did not care. They are still in the same boxes as I don't dare to dispose of them. ;-) The welcome and menu pages of BP1 are in Applesoft BASIC. Probably compiled, even though speed did not matter. Pure 6502 code is used every time you select a command. Therefore, the code was fragmented in several units, the titles of which appear on top of the source code, as I could see in BigMac. For instance there is a source file "BI.S" that BigMac will load if you ask for "BI". It took me time to remember that the "S" extension should not be included. Somewhere on the BP1 source disk there is a compiled BASIC program that I designed for picking up 6502 source code and creating a "flowchart" of the program structure printed on (many) pages. This rarely helped me to fix bugs but it was fun. Philippe, who helped me to transfer disk, told me that he has a piece of software (under Windows) that compiles 6502 code for several environments, including for instance Commodore 64 which actually accepted 6510, a more advanced language. If you recompile you may try to design a MIDI output!!! :-) It would be fun to recompile BP1 and run it on a virtual machine with more memory space, as this was my limit. Memory management on BP1 was sophisticated with a (recursive) automatic "garbage collection" procedure that moved blocks to maintain memory space compactedness. This anticipated "handles" on the Mac! Bernard Anthony Kozar wrote on 29/08/2020 13:06: > Bernard, > > Awesome! Thanks! :) > > You did have very good luck with your floppies. I should try reading > some of mine. They have been in storage in my attic though which can > get up to 100°F in the summer. :( > > I'm glad that you copied the BP1 source disk. I'm interested in > looking at the code. (I was surprised that BP1 seems to be a > combination of BASIC and 6502 assembly. I thought it was all assembly > code). > > I purchased the Opus ][ software collection so I now have a complete > suite of Apple II development tools. Most of the tools in that > collection are only for the IIgs but there is a version of the ORCA/M > assembler included for the Apple //e. It will be interesting to see > if the BP1 code is compatible with ORCA/M or if it needs to be ported. > > I used ORCA/C tonight to compile my first C programs on the IIgs. ^_^ > > Lots of fun stuff to explore now... > > Anthony > > > On 8/28/20, 3:56 PM, Bernard Bel wrote: >> I went again to Marseille on Thursday and transfered all my Apple II >> diskettes to DSK disk images, among which more data for BP1. You will >> find them here: >> >> https://bolprocessor.org/misc/BP1/ >> >> The program disk is named "BP-PRG.DSK". Data/grammar files are >> "BELFAST.DSK", "BP-JULY87.DSK", "BP-OCT88.DSK" and "BP-BB.DSK". >> >> The disk "BPSOURCES.DSK" contains all source files in 6502 machine >> language. If you are tempted to recompile BP1 you can download >> "BIGMAC.DSK" and then remind me how to edit/compile this code… ;-) I >> have forgotten the procedures that kept me busy for several years! >> >> Both Philippe M and I were amazed that these floppy disks dating back to >> 35 years were still perfectly readable. But his equipment (an Apple IIc) >> is also in perfect shape… >> >> To-morrow I will start writing an article on how to set up the emulator >> and run BP1. Later, Jim Kippen will figure out a demo making sense with >> this musical material (tabla composition/improvisation). >> >> Bernard > > > _______________________________________________ > bolprocessor-devel mailing list > bol...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bolprocessor-devel |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-30 12:06:51
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Hello BP1 fan club! I started documenting the installation and basic operation of BP1 in its Apple II emulation: https://bolprocessor.org/installing-bp1/ It is actually very easy to install but I wanted to describe the process in detail. A trial with LinApple on Linux would be welcome… I had done the test on Windows in Marseille. Don't hesitate to comment, suggest clarifications and fix language mistakes! (Anthony can edit the post directly.) I start remembering how it worked ;-) The next publication will be an explanation of its use, preferably using musical examples which had been well documented and mentioned in publications. For this reason I selected material dating to 1988, our latest work on this machine… Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-08-30 12:27:13
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Hello BP1 fan club! I started documenting the installation and basic operation of BP1 in its Apple II emulation: https://bolprocessor.org/installing-bp1/ It is actually very easy to install but I wanted to describe the process in detail. A trial with LinApple on Linux would be welcome… I had done the test on Windows in Marseille. Don't hesitate to comment, suggest clarifications and fix language mistakes! (Anthony can edit the post directly.) I start remembering how it worked ;-) The next publication will be an explanation of its use, preferably using musical examples which had been well documented and mentioned in publications. For this reason I selected material dating to 1988, our latest work on this machine… Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-09-01 12:58:10
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I completed the article on "installing BP1", adding some background information and links for readers who might have landed from another planet… Reading again our paper on BP1 applied to the study of q‘aida improvisation (https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00004506) I remember the importance of early features of BP1, such as pattern grammars (using a smart editor than could never be reproduced on the Mac version), wildcards, negative context etc. These are available in BP2 but we have very few examples of their use. Grammars and data analyzed in our 1992 paper are convincing examples but reading them requires investing time to get familiar with the musical context. Nonetheless, I am confident that we can publish an article on the website taking grammar "Q2.7" (from disk BP-JULY87.DSK) which is the first one described in our paper. The aim would be to demonstrate: 1) Producing variations with the grammar; 2) Analyzing data examples with the grammar (where templates are used); 3) Assigning weights to grammar rules from a set of (correct) examples — our first attempt of "machine learning". The same can be done using BP2 since all algorithms have been reproduced. Trying them on BP1 might give new ideas about their proper implementation in the next version. Bernard Bel --------- Hello BP1 fan club! I started documenting the installation and basic operation of BP1 in its Apple II emulation: https://bolprocessor.org/installing-bp1/ It is actually very easy to install but I wanted to describe the process in detail. A trial with LinApple on Linux would be welcome… I had done the test on Windows in Marseille. Don't hesitate to comment, suggest clarifications and fix language mistakes! (Anthony can edit the post directly.) I start remembering how it worked ;-) The next publication will be an explanation of its use, preferably using musical examples which had been well documented and mentioned in publications. For this reason I selected material dating to 1988, our latest work on this machine… Bernard |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-09-02 20:29:26
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I have completed another article showing BP1 in its real musical context. This wasn't difficult because of the availability of a "realistic" example in our 1992 publication. https://bolprocessor.org/bp1-in-real-musical-context/ Running the program was uneasy. Maybe because of a lack of memory, given the sizes of the grammar and data set. I am not certain that the emulator provided as much RAM as the physical Apple IIe… Sometimes I type ctrl-C in the first grammar rule and it quits the grammar instead of producing variations. In addition, I was not able to reconstruct templates. Maybe I have forgotten the right procedure! Anyway, the videos prove that all this is possible :-) All corrections and comments welcome ! Bernard Bel |
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From: Bernard B. <ber...@gm...> - 2020-09-08 15:03:49
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Last news: After installing a brand new keyboard, BP1 worked fine. In fact the ctrl key was presumably defective, forcing ctrl-C to quit the editor… In grammar Q2.7 I could even reconstruct the 20 templates. Bernard -------- I have completed another article showing BP1 in its real musical context. This wasn't difficult because of the availability of a "realistic" example in our 1992 publication. https://bolprocessor.org/bp1-in-real-musical-context/ Running the program was uneasy. Maybe because of a lack of memory, given the sizes of the grammar and data set. I am not certain that the emulator provided as much RAM as the physical Apple IIe… Sometimes I type ctrl-C in the first grammar rule and it quits the grammar instead of producing variations. In addition, I was not able to reconstruct templates. Maybe I have forgotten the right procedure! Anyway, the videos prove that all this is possible :-) All corrections and comments welcome ! Bernard Bel |
