bluemusic-users

[Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi All,

I was about to get started on the Effects part the mixer system and
was interested to get some feedback.  Currently I am planning that
Effects be user-definable, using Csound code for the coding and
BlueSynthBuilder widgets to create a User-Interface for the effects.=20
The effects would be edited in a library manager that is program wide,
stored in the user's .blue directory.

Adding an effect would be done on the mixer channels, and to edit the
effect you double-click the effect and the interface that was created
in the library is shown to configure the effect.

Now, I am concerned about what to do with nchnls of possible
inputs/outputs.  Should effects have an option to set how many
channels they are made for?

Also, do you think that it should be possible for Effects to be
first-rate java classes, meaning that someone could make their own
custom user-interface in Java code that would emit csound code but
that the user wouldn't be able to edit codewise (Effect would then be
a plugin type like SoundObjects, Instruments, and NoteProcessors are)?
 If so, that adds a layer of abstraction to the code that would make
it trickier to handle.

Well, any thoughts on the above would be very much appreciated!
steven

Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Der M. <ret...@gm...>]

A visible BPM counter is something one searches for the hardest upon
any mixer . . . there must  be a newbie list or some such for the
likes of me - i adore the idea of a versatile GUI for CSound, and Blue
is a lot more usable for yours truly than, say Cecilia or MacCsound,
horror of horrors . . . got me a command line version finally, copying
it into /usr/bin does the trick, but I still have to make it run in
realtime - it disgorges audio files so far, just like the original
command line version . . . how do I specify core audio as the default
output in the command line preferences? mind and narrative all over
the place, sorry about that

mick

Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

BPM can be set via the "t" statement in the score
file. In Blue, you would add a line in the global
score section like "t 0 120", which means at beat zero
make the temp be 120 BPM.

Michael

--- Der Mickster <ret...@gm...> wrote:

> A visible BPM counter is something one searches for
> the hardest upon
> any mixer . . . there must  be a newbie list or some
> such for the
> likes of me - i adore the idea of a versatile GUI
> for CSound, and Blue
> is a lot more usable for yours truly than, say
> Cecilia or MacCsound,
> horror of horrors . . . got me a command line
> version finally, copying
> it into /usr/bin does the trick, but I still have to
> make it run in
> realtime - it disgorges audio files so far, just
> like the original
> command line version . . . how do I specify core
> audio as the default
> output in the command line preferences? mind and
> narrative all over
> the place, sorry about that
> 
> mick
> 
> 
>
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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Mick,

I don't use a Mac much but last I did, I used something like:

csound -Ado dac

for a commandline in blue. Are you using Csound5?  If so, there are
other options too; probably best to use -+rtaudio=3Dcoreaudio as an
extra setting.  I know there were some discussions on the csound list
sometime in the past month or two about Mac commandline csound5
settings for realtime but I wasn't paying attention to them much, so
might be good to check the archives or ask on that list.

As for newbie lists, there aren't any I'm aware of, but you should
feel free to ask any questions you'd like here or on the csound list.=20
Most likely you'll find there are many others who will be looking for
answers to the same questions you may have!

steven

On 2/25/06, Der Mickster <ret...@gm...> wrote:
> A visible BPM counter is something one searches for the hardest upon
> any mixer . . . there must  be a newbie list or some such for the
> likes of me - i adore the idea of a versatile GUI for CSound, and Blue
> is a lot more usable for yours truly than, say Cecilia or MacCsound,
> horror of horrors . . . got me a command line version finally, copying
> it into /usr/bin does the trick, but I still have to make it run in
> realtime - it disgorges audio files so far, just like the original
> command line version . . . how do I specify core audio as the default
> output in the command line preferences? mind and narrative all over
> the place, sorry about that
>
> mick
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting langua=
ge
> that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webc=
ast
> and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territor=
y!
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

I know I'd like the flexibility of making an effect
use one or two channels, as alot of my current effects
are that way. I don't think I care about whether or
not a Java plugin could generate effect code.

Michael

--- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I was about to get started on the Effects part the
> mixer system and
> was interested to get some feedback.  Currently I am
> planning that
> Effects be user-definable, using Csound code for the
> coding and
> BlueSynthBuilder widgets to create a User-Interface
> for the effects. 
> The effects would be edited in a library manager
> that is program wide,
> stored in the user's .blue directory.
> 
> Adding an effect would be done on the mixer
> channels, and to edit the
> effect you double-click the effect and the interface
> that was created
> in the library is shown to configure the effect.
> 
> Now, I am concerned about what to do with nchnls of
> possible
> inputs/outputs.  Should effects have an option to
> set how many
> channels they are made for?
> 
> Also, do you think that it should be possible for
> Effects to be
> first-rate java classes, meaning that someone could
> make their own
> custom user-interface in Java code that would emit
> csound code but
> that the user wouldn't be able to edit codewise
> (Effect would then be
> a plugin type like SoundObjects, Instruments, and
> NoteProcessors are)?
>  If so, that adds a layer of abstraction to the code
> that would make
> it trickier to handle.
> 
> Well, any thoughts on the above would be very much
> appreciated!
> steven
> 
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a
> groundbreaking scripting language
> that extends applications into web and mobile media.
> Attend the live webcast
> and join the prime developer group breaking into
> this new coding territory!
>
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642
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>
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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your reply!  Could you clarify what you mean by having an
effect work on one or two channels?  Within the context of the mixer,=20
does this mean to allow adding effects to only one audio channel of a
mixer channel (i.e. the left audio in of channel 1)?  Or does this
mean that when you build the effect and you use it in blue, that the
same effect object could work with both a project of nchnls=3D1 and
nchnls=3D2?

BTW: Getting this kind of feedback is *very* valuable to me as I only
know my own way of working, which is pretty much stereo all the time,
and I'd like to make this a system that is robust in its design to
handle what everyone else would like to do too (because one day I
might want to do things differently too!).

An csound code example would be very helpful as well for me to
understand your way of thinking about the matter.

Regarding the Java option, what I was originally thinking was that
someone might want to create an effects object in Java that has a
fancy UI to show parametric EQ or something like that, but in honesty
I think most users won't go that distance (no has yet built a plugin
for blue that I'm aware of besides myself, which is a good thing I
guess in that it means the existing plugins are fairly robust).  I'll
go ahead with the assumption that users will use user-defined effect
(code and UI done within blue) and design the architecture for that.=20
If users need new widgets for their UI's, then we can just add more
BSB Widgets and then all of the BSB-based tools can also get them too.

Thanks again for your reply!
steven


On 2/25/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...> wrote:
> I know I'd like the flexibility of making an effect
> use one or two channels, as alot of my current effects
> are that way. I don't think I care about whether or
> not a Java plugin could generate effect code.
>
> Michael
>
> --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I was about to get started on the Effects part the
> > mixer system and
> > was interested to get some feedback.  Currently I am
> > planning that
> > Effects be user-definable, using Csound code for the
> > coding and
> > BlueSynthBuilder widgets to create a User-Interface
> > for the effects.
> > The effects would be edited in a library manager
> > that is program wide,
> > stored in the user's .blue directory.
> >
> > Adding an effect would be done on the mixer
> > channels, and to edit the
> > effect you double-click the effect and the interface
> > that was created
> > in the library is shown to configure the effect.
> >
> > Now, I am concerned about what to do with nchnls of
> > possible
> > inputs/outputs.  Should effects have an option to
> > set how many
> > channels they are made for?
> >
> > Also, do you think that it should be possible for
> > Effects to be
> > first-rate java classes, meaning that someone could
> > make their own
> > custom user-interface in Java code that would emit
> > csound code but
> > that the user wouldn't be able to edit codewise
> > (Effect would then be
> > a plugin type like SoundObjects, Instruments, and
> > NoteProcessors are)?
> >  If so, that adds a layer of abstraction to the code
> > that would make
> > it trickier to handle.
> >
> > Well, any thoughts on the above would be very much
> > appreciated!
> > steven
> >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a
> > groundbreaking scripting language
> > that extends applications into web and mobile media.
> > Attend the live webcast
> > and join the prime developer group breaking into
> > this new coding territory!
> >
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=110944&bid$1720&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bluemusic-users mailing list
> > Blu...@li...
> >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
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ge
> that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webc=
ast
> and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territor=
y!
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D110944&bid=3D241720&dat=
=3D121642
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>

Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

I just meant having an effect that took one or two
inputs and produced one or two outputs. Any
combination. As far as channels are concerned, I guess
that depends. I suppose ideally I would want the
option to have any channel be either mono or stereo,
and any effect to be as I described above.

For instance, if I've got a channel that has only one
output, but I've got an effect that takes two inputs,
I'd like to be able to stick that effect on the
channel and have it route the same signal into both
effect inputs. Likewise, if I have a stereo channel
and want to apply a mono effect, it should combine the
signal from the channel and feed it into the one input
of the effect. Obviously, channels and effects with
matching numbers of outputs and inputs wouldn't be a
problem, with one or two; it would just be a matter of
matching output to input.

I hope that's a little clearer. Can't wait to check
this stuff out.

Michael

--- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> 
> Thanks for your reply!  Could you clarify what you
> mean by having an
> effect work on one or two channels?  Within the
> context of the mixer, 
> does this mean to allow adding effects to only one
> audio channel of a
> mixer channel (i.e. the left audio in of channel 1)?
>  Or does this
> mean that when you build the effect and you use it
> in blue, that the
> same effect object could work with both a project of
> nchnls=1 and
> nchnls=2?
> 
> BTW: Getting this kind of feedback is *very*
> valuable to me as I only
> know my own way of working, which is pretty much
> stereo all the time,
> and I'd like to make this a system that is robust in
> its design to
> handle what everyone else would like to do too
> (because one day I
> might want to do things differently too!).
> 
> An csound code example would be very helpful as well
> for me to
> understand your way of thinking about the matter.
> 
> Regarding the Java option, what I was originally
> thinking was that
> someone might want to create an effects object in
> Java that has a
> fancy UI to show parametric EQ or something like
> that, but in honesty
> I think most users won't go that distance (no has
> yet built a plugin
> for blue that I'm aware of besides myself, which is
> a good thing I
> guess in that it means the existing plugins are
> fairly robust).  I'll
> go ahead with the assumption that users will use
> user-defined effect
> (code and UI done within blue) and design the
> architecture for that. 
> If users need new widgets for their UI's, then we
> can just add more
> BSB Widgets and then all of the BSB-based tools can
> also get them too.
> 
> Thanks again for your reply!
> steven
> 
> 
> On 2/25/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...>
> wrote:
> > I know I'd like the flexibility of making an
> effect
> > use one or two channels, as alot of my current
> effects
> > are that way. I don't think I care about whether
> or
> > not a Java plugin could generate effect code.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I was about to get started on the Effects part
> the
> > > mixer system and
> > > was interested to get some feedback.  Currently
> I am
> > > planning that
> > > Effects be user-definable, using Csound code for
> the
> > > coding and
> > > BlueSynthBuilder widgets to create a
> User-Interface
> > > for the effects.
> > > The effects would be edited in a library manager
> > > that is program wide,
> > > stored in the user's .blue directory.
> > >
> > > Adding an effect would be done on the mixer
> > > channels, and to edit the
> > > effect you double-click the effect and the
> interface
> > > that was created
> > > in the library is shown to configure the effect.
> > >
> > > Now, I am concerned about what to do with nchnls
> of
> > > possible
> > > inputs/outputs.  Should effects have an option
> to
> > > set how many
> > > channels they are made for?
> > >
> > > Also, do you think that it should be possible
> for
> > > Effects to be
> > > first-rate java classes, meaning that someone
> could
> > > make their own
> > > custom user-interface in Java code that would
> emit
> > > csound code but
> > > that the user wouldn't be able to edit codewise
> > > (Effect would then be
> > > a plugin type like SoundObjects, Instruments,
> and
> > > NoteProcessors are)?
> > >  If so, that adds a layer of abstraction to the
> code
> > > that would make
> > > it trickier to handle.
> > >
> > > Well, any thoughts on the above would be very
> much
> > > appreciated!
> > > steven
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a
> > > groundbreaking scripting language
> > > that extends applications into web and mobile
> media.
> > > Attend the live webcast
> > > and join the prime developer group breaking into
> > > this new coding territory!
> > >
> >
>
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bluemusic-users mailing list
> > > Blu...@li...
> > >
> >
>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> protection around
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> >
> >
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-------------------------------------------------------
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> groundbreaking scripting language
> > that extends applications into web and mobile
> media. Attend the live webcast
> > and join the prime developer group breaking into
> this new coding territory!
> >
>
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> >
>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
> >
> 
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------
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> Attend the live webcast
> and join the prime developer group breaking into
> this new coding territory!
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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid that it's all still very mixed up in
my head and I'm trying very hard to figure out an implementation;
hopefully you all won't mind if I brainstorm here.  Currently, the
mixer is assuming that nchnls audio is being produced by an
instrument. Not assuming this may cause a lot more work, but I'm
interested in getting this right so don't mind.

Now, I think maybe we should keep this to mono and stereo issues at
the moment for the sake of making this a little easier to comprehend
(for me at least!).  I guess what's going on in my mind now are:

-mixer channels are nchnls in/out.  I think that nchnls out should be
required; making nchnls or less for the mixer in seems doable
-in between the input and output, the signal may go through various
effects, which may have either one or two channels in and one or two
channels out
-the issue will be matching up num inputs and num outputs, and the
rules should be the same starting from the input to the channels,
through the effects, and out the channel out

-if signal in is mono and effect in is mono, no worries
-if signal in is stereo and effect in is stereo, no worries
-if signal in is mono and effect in is stereo, my assumption is to
make two copies of the signal and feed in to both channels of the
stereo in
-if signal in is stereo and effect in is mono, my assumption is to
duplicate the effect and run two copies individually on both channels,
barring that the effect out is also mono; if the effect in is mono and
the output stereo, then mix the stereo input signal to a mono signal
(simple add) and feed in

Does this sound right?

Also, for effects, I think that they should have a fixed number in and
out when you define and create/code them.  This will require users to
create a mono version and stereo version should they need to have
different versions unless the rules above work fine for you (i.e. you
have a mono-in/mono-out delay plugin, you could use it on a stereo
track and know that both channels will be echoed with the same values
with two instances of the mono plugin).

Besides effects, I was also planning to implement sends, though this
is complicated to me.   The program's I've seen allow doing sends
pre-fader and post-fader, and this seems to designate where in the
sending channel it sends the signal.  For the receiving channel, I'm
not quite sure where it enters into the mix, if it gets mixed in with
the other input signals that are channeled in to it. Can anyone
clarify?  (This is issue is a little more complicated than I imagined
so will likely push this to the release after the effects are
implemented).

Now, a trickier problem is what to do for nhcnls > 2. I'm at a bit of
a loss at the moment on that one.  I'd love to find some kind of
generic rules where if the "num output from one is less than num
channels in, then..." that could scale to n- number of channels, but
I'm not sure there are such rules, so maybe the mixer should be
classified as a stereo mixer only for now, and if you're doing more
than stereo, perhaps just don't use the mixer.(???)

steven

On 2/26/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...> wrote:
> I just meant having an effect that took one or two
> inputs and produced one or two outputs. Any
> combination. As far as channels are concerned, I guess
> that depends. I suppose ideally I would want the
> option to have any channel be either mono or stereo,
> and any effect to be as I described above.
>
> For instance, if I've got a channel that has only one
> output, but I've got an effect that takes two inputs,
> I'd like to be able to stick that effect on the
> channel and have it route the same signal into both
> effect inputs. Likewise, if I have a stereo channel
> and want to apply a mono effect, it should combine the
> signal from the channel and feed it into the one input
> of the effect. Obviously, channels and effects with
> matching numbers of outputs and inputs wouldn't be a
> problem, with one or two; it would just be a matter of
> matching output to input.
>
> I hope that's a little clearer. Can't wait to check
> this stuff out.
>
> Michael
>
> --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply!  Could you clarify what you
> > mean by having an
> > effect work on one or two channels?  Within the
> > context of the mixer,
> > does this mean to allow adding effects to only one
> > audio channel of a
> > mixer channel (i.e. the left audio in of channel 1)?
> >  Or does this
> > mean that when you build the effect and you use it
> > in blue, that the
> > same effect object could work with both a project of
> > nchnls=3D1 and
> > nchnls=3D2?
> >
> > BTW: Getting this kind of feedback is *very*
> > valuable to me as I only
> > know my own way of working, which is pretty much
> > stereo all the time,
> > and I'd like to make this a system that is robust in
> > its design to
> > handle what everyone else would like to do too
> > (because one day I
> > might want to do things differently too!).
> >
> > An csound code example would be very helpful as well
> > for me to
> > understand your way of thinking about the matter.
> >
> > Regarding the Java option, what I was originally
> > thinking was that
> > someone might want to create an effects object in
> > Java that has a
> > fancy UI to show parametric EQ or something like
> > that, but in honesty
> > I think most users won't go that distance (no has
> > yet built a plugin
> > for blue that I'm aware of besides myself, which is
> > a good thing I
> > guess in that it means the existing plugins are
> > fairly robust).  I'll
> > go ahead with the assumption that users will use
> > user-defined effect
> > (code and UI done within blue) and design the
> > architecture for that.
> > If users need new widgets for their UI's, then we
> > can just add more
> > BSB Widgets and then all of the BSB-based tools can
> > also get them too.
> >
> > Thanks again for your reply!
> > steven
> >
> >
> > On 2/25/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...>
> > wrote:
> > > I know I'd like the flexibility of making an
> > effect
> > > use one or two channels, as alot of my current
> > effects
> > > are that way. I don't think I care about whether
> > or
> > > not a Java plugin could generate effect code.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I was about to get started on the Effects part
> > the
> > > > mixer system and
> > > > was interested to get some feedback.  Currently
> > I am
> > > > planning that
> > > > Effects be user-definable, using Csound code for
> > the
> > > > coding and
> > > > BlueSynthBuilder widgets to create a
> > User-Interface
> > > > for the effects.
> > > > The effects would be edited in a library manager
> > > > that is program wide,
> > > > stored in the user's .blue directory.
> > > >
> > > > Adding an effect would be done on the mixer
> > > > channels, and to edit the
> > > > effect you double-click the effect and the
> > interface
> > > > that was created
> > > > in the library is shown to configure the effect.
> > > >
> > > > Now, I am concerned about what to do with nchnls
> > of
> > > > possible
> > > > inputs/outputs.  Should effects have an option
> > to
> > > > set how many
> > > > channels they are made for?
> > > >
> > > > Also, do you think that it should be possible
> > for
> > > > Effects to be
> > > > first-rate java classes, meaning that someone
> > could
> > > > make their own
> > > > custom user-interface in Java code that would
> > emit
> > > > csound code but
> > > > that the user wouldn't be able to edit codewise
> > > > (Effect would then be
> > > > a plugin type like SoundObjects, Instruments,
> > and
> > > > NoteProcessors are)?
> > > >  If so, that adds a layer of abstraction to the
> > code
> > > > that would make
> > > > it trickier to handle.
> > > >
> > > > Well, any thoughts on the above would be very
> > much
> > > > appreciated!
> > > > steven
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

I'll try my best to be clear on my answers here:

--- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> 
> ...
> Now, I think maybe we should keep this to mono and
> stereo issues at
> the moment for the sake of making this a little
> easier to comprehend
> (for me at least!).  I guess what's going on in my
> mind now are:
> 
> -mixer channels are nchnls in/out.  I think that
> nchnls out should be
> required; making nchnls or less for the mixer in
> seems doable
> -in between the input and output, the signal may go
> through various
> effects, which may have either one or two channels
> in and one or two
> channels out
> -the issue will be matching up num inputs and num
> outputs, and the
> rules should be the same starting from the input to
> the channels,
> through the effects, and out the channel out
> 
> -if signal in is mono and effect in is mono, no
> worries
> -if signal in is stereo and effect in is stereo, no
> worries
> -if signal in is mono and effect in is stereo, my
> assumption is to
> make two copies of the signal and feed in to both
> channels of the
> stereo in
> -if signal in is stereo and effect in is mono, my
> assumption is to
> duplicate the effect and run two copies individually
> on both channels,
> barring that the effect out is also mono; if the
> effect in is mono and
> the output stereo, then mix the stereo input signal
> to a mono signal
> (simple add) and feed in
> 
> Does this sound right?
> 

Everything but the last one sounds right to me. The
problem is, in csound there seem to be several opcodes
that take a mono signal and produce stereo output.
Duplicating a mono effect on a stereo channel may not
be what the user intends.

I'm thinking at this point it might be best to leave
it in the hands of the user. nchnls in/out for
channels AND effects. That way, if the user has a mono
effect and nchnls=2, they have to decide what to do
with those two signals coming in and going out, not
blue.

> ...
> Besides effects, I was also planning to implement
> sends, though this
> is complicated to me.   The program's I've seen
> allow doing sends
> pre-fader and post-fader, and this seems to
> designate where in the
> sending channel it sends the signal.  For the
> receiving channel, I'm
> not quite sure where it enters into the mix, if it
> gets mixed in with
> the other input signals that are channeled in to it.
> Can anyone
> clarify?  (This is issue is a little more
> complicated than I imagined
> so will likely push this to the release after the
> effects are
> implemented).
> 

So it usually goes like this. Sequentially, each
channel has a pre-fader send, a pre-fader return,
effects in the channel (like volume, panning, etc.),
and a post-fader send. Buses are exactly like
channels, but they take channel signal(s) as their
root input (before the pre-fader send, etc.). So
here's what you do for certain tasks:

GROUPING SIGNALS:
When mixing, you usually arrive at the situation where
you want to apply one single effect or volume control
on many different channels. Instead of adjusting each
channel individually and hoping your adjustments match
up, you hook the post-fader sends of each channel into
a single bus' input. Then you can apply volume control
to that bus and also use that bus' pre-fader send and
return for other effects, leading to:

APPLYING EFFECTS:
When applying effects to a signal, you usually want to
either apply the effect on the signal first and then
control things like the volume, panning, etc. (thing
you do from a channel/bus), or let the effect control
that stuff (like compression, certain stereo reverbs,
etc.). In the first instance, you'd hook the pre-fader
send into the effect's input, and send the effect's
output back into the pre-fader return; now the channel
is controling the audio signal with effects. In the
second instance, you'd hook the post-fader send into
the effect's input, and send the effect's output into
the final stereo signal (or a bus).

I highly recommend this link:
http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm. It's the whole
skinny, broken done in easy-to-understand terms, and
covers everything from microphones to mastering. Refer
to the Mixers, Mixer Hookup, and Signal Flow sections
in particularly

> Now, a trickier problem is what to do for nhcnls >
> 2. I'm at a bit of
> a loss at the moment on that one.  I'd love to find
> some kind of
> generic rules where if the "num output from one is
> less than num
> channels in, then..." that could scale to n- number
> of channels, but
> I'm not sure there are such rules, so maybe the
> mixer should be
> classified as a stereo mixer only for now, and if
> you're doing more
> than stereo, perhaps just don't use the mixer.(???)
> 

Probably best to cross that bridge when you get to it.
Most of the csounders out there probably aren't
concerned with nchnls>2 anyway, to speak nothing for
the number of listeners who care about it. Until there
becomes a big demand for it, I wouldn't sweat it.

Michael Bechard


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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Michael,
> Everything but the last one sounds right to me. The
> problem is, in csound there seem to be several opcodes
> that take a mono signal and produce stereo output.
> Duplicating a mono effect on a stereo channel may not
> be what the user intends.

I think I was unclear in the first email; I think it should duplicate
if the effect is mono-in/mono-out, but not duplicate if it is
mono-in/stereo-out.  So if a stereo signal comes in and the effect is
mono-in/stereo-out, it would mix the signal to mono first before
applying the affect.  If the signal is stereo and the effect is
mono-in/mono-out, then apply the mono effect to each channel
separately.

> I'm thinking at this point it might be best to leave
> it in the hands of the user. nchnls in/out for
> channels AND effects. That way, if the user has a mono
> effect and nchnls=3D2, they have to decide what to do
> with those two signals coming in and going out, not
> blue.

Would this be an option then, like perhaps a toggle button that
changes?  Say if the effect is less channels than the signal coming
in, then toggle between mixing the signal down or applying to the
different channels separately?  This could make the UI very
complicated, and I'm thinking that the rules system from above might
be enough and seem to be usability wise what one would expect.


> > Besides effects, I was also planning to implement
> > sends, though this
> > is complicated to me.   The program's I've seen
> > allow doing sends
> > pre-fader and post-fader, and this seems to
> > designate where in the
> > sending channel it sends the signal.  For the
> > receiving channel, I'm
> > not quite sure where it enters into the mix, if it
> > gets mixed in with
> > the other input signals that are channeled in to it.
> > Can anyone
> > clarify?  (This is issue is a little more
> > complicated than I imagined
> > so will likely push this to the release after the
> > effects are
> > implemented).
> >
>
> So it usually goes like this. Sequentially, each
> channel has a pre-fader send, a pre-fader return,
> effects in the channel (like volume, panning, etc.),
> and a post-fader send. Buses are exactly like
> channels, but they take channel signal(s) as their
> root input (before the pre-fader send, etc.). So
> here's what you do for certain tasks:
>
> GROUPING SIGNALS:
> When mixing, you usually arrive at the situation where
> you want to apply one single effect or volume control
> on many different channels. Instead of adjusting each
> channel individually and hoping your adjustments match
> up, you hook the post-fader sends of each channel into
> a single bus' input. Then you can apply volume control
> to that bus and also use that bus' pre-fader send and
> return for other effects, leading to:
>
> APPLYING EFFECTS:
> When applying effects to a signal, you usually want to
> either apply the effect on the signal first and then
> control things like the volume, panning, etc. (thing
> you do from a channel/bus), or let the effect control
> that stuff (like compression, certain stereo reverbs,
> etc.). In the first instance, you'd hook the pre-fader
> send into the effect's input, and send the effect's
> output back into the pre-fader return; now the channel
> is controling the audio signal with effects. In the
> second instance, you'd hook the post-fader send into
> the effect's input, and send the effect's output into
> the final stereo signal (or a bus).
>
> I highly recommend this link:
> http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm. It's the whole
> skinny, broken done in easy-to-understand terms, and
> covers everything from microphones to mastering. Refer
> to the Mixers, Mixer Hookup, and Signal Flow sections
> in particularly

Thanks for the link!  I'm studying the Cakewalk Sonar Mixer from the
help documentation and I think there's some things here that make
sense, namely not returns, only sends.  It seems that sends/returns
make sense in a hardware mixing setup, but in software where there is
a place for effects already in the channel strips chain of processing,
returns aren't necessarily required as the results of the effects are
automatically brought back.  Having a send is useful for sending out
portion of the signal for a reverb and then you could control wet/dry
per channel, etc.  Also, in the Cakewalk mixer implementation, there
are pre/post-fader sends, but they are both after the effects
processing. So something like:

signal in -> Effects Processing ->Pre-Fader Sends ->Fader/Pan ->
Post-Fader Sends ->signal out

Their mixer also differentiates audio tracks (which are mono) and midi
tracks which have no capacity for sends.

It's tricky for what Pan should do and if there should be a pan in
blue's mixer what it should do.

Cubase doesn't seem to have a demo download but they have a manual
download which I'll take a look at for other software mixer ideas.=20
Ardour seems to have something different as well with pre/post send
effects processing (I think).

> Probably best to cross that bridge when you get to it.
> Most of the csounders out there probably aren't
> concerned with nchnls>2 anyway, to speak nothing for
> the number of listeners who care about it. Until there
> becomes a big demand for it, I wouldn't sweat it.

Yes, I think I'll continue on with mono/stereo issues for now and
worry about multichannel another time.

Thanks again!
steven

Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Wow, I just took a look at Ardour and it has some *very* flexible
routing.  Basically, there are banks before and after the fader, and
in the banks you can add sends, inserts, or effects and order them in
any way.  So you could do:

signal in -> effect 1 -> send 1 -> effect 2 -> effect 3 -> insert 1 ->
effect 4 -> fader -> effect 5 -> insert 2 -> effect 6 -> send 2 ->
signal out

This is quite nice I think and very, very flexible.  Yet, I'm not sure
if this is ultimately all necessary to have this flexible a routing,
and if not, it will add quite a bit of complication to rendering out
the final mixer instrument for not much gain.  I will continue to
study but thought I'd mention this here.

steven

On 2/28/06, Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> > Everything but the last one sounds right to me. The
> > problem is, in csound there seem to be several opcodes
> > that take a mono signal and produce stereo output.
> > Duplicating a mono effect on a stereo channel may not
> > be what the user intends.
>
> I think I was unclear in the first email; I think it should duplicate
> if the effect is mono-in/mono-out, but not duplicate if it is
> mono-in/stereo-out.  So if a stereo signal comes in and the effect is
> mono-in/stereo-out, it would mix the signal to mono first before
> applying the affect.  If the signal is stereo and the effect is
> mono-in/mono-out, then apply the mono effect to each channel
> separately.
>
> > I'm thinking at this point it might be best to leave
> > it in the hands of the user. nchnls in/out for
> > channels AND effects. That way, if the user has a mono
> > effect and nchnls=3D2, they have to decide what to do
> > with those two signals coming in and going out, not
> > blue.
>
> Would this be an option then, like perhaps a toggle button that
> changes?  Say if the effect is less channels than the signal coming
> in, then toggle between mixing the signal down or applying to the
> different channels separately?  This could make the UI very
> complicated, and I'm thinking that the rules system from above might
> be enough and seem to be usability wise what one would expect.
>
>
> > > Besides effects, I was also planning to implement
> > > sends, though this
> > > is complicated to me.   The program's I've seen
> > > allow doing sends
> > > pre-fader and post-fader, and this seems to
> > > designate where in the
> > > sending channel it sends the signal.  For the
> > > receiving channel, I'm
> > > not quite sure where it enters into the mix, if it
> > > gets mixed in with
> > > the other input signals that are channeled in to it.
> > > Can anyone
> > > clarify?  (This is issue is a little more
> > > complicated than I imagined
> > > so will likely push this to the release after the
> > > effects are
> > > implemented).
> > >
> >
> > So it usually goes like this. Sequentially, each
> > channel has a pre-fader send, a pre-fader return,
> > effects in the channel (like volume, panning, etc.),
> > and a post-fader send. Buses are exactly like
> > channels, but they take channel signal(s) as their
> > root input (before the pre-fader send, etc.). So
> > here's what you do for certain tasks:
> >
> > GROUPING SIGNALS:
> > When mixing, you usually arrive at the situation where
> > you want to apply one single effect or volume control
> > on many different channels. Instead of adjusting each
> > channel individually and hoping your adjustments match
> > up, you hook the post-fader sends of each channel into
> > a single bus' input. Then you can apply volume control
> > to that bus and also use that bus' pre-fader send and
> > return for other effects, leading to:
> >
> > APPLYING EFFECTS:
> > When applying effects to a signal, you usually want to
> > either apply the effect on the signal first and then
> > control things like the volume, panning, etc. (thing
> > you do from a channel/bus), or let the effect control
> > that stuff (like compression, certain stereo reverbs,
> > etc.). In the first instance, you'd hook the pre-fader
> > send into the effect's input, and send the effect's
> > output back into the pre-fader return; now the channel
> > is controling the audio signal with effects. In the
> > second instance, you'd hook the post-fader send into
> > the effect's input, and send the effect's output into
> > the final stereo signal (or a bus).
> >
> > I highly recommend this link:
> > http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm. It's the whole
> > skinny, broken done in easy-to-understand terms, and
> > covers everything from microphones to mastering. Refer
> > to the Mixers, Mixer Hookup, and Signal Flow sections
> > in particularly
>
> Thanks for the link!  I'm studying the Cakewalk Sonar Mixer from the
> help documentation and I think there's some things here that make
> sense, namely not returns, only sends.  It seems that sends/returns
> make sense in a hardware mixing setup, but in software where there is
> a place for effects already in the channel strips chain of processing,
> returns aren't necessarily required as the results of the effects are
> automatically brought back.  Having a send is useful for sending out
> portion of the signal for a reverb and then you could control wet/dry
> per channel, etc.  Also, in the Cakewalk mixer implementation, there
> are pre/post-fader sends, but they are both after the effects
> processing. So something like:
>
> signal in -> Effects Processing ->Pre-Fader Sends ->Fader/Pan ->
> Post-Fader Sends ->signal out
>
> Their mixer also differentiates audio tracks (which are mono) and midi
> tracks which have no capacity for sends.
>
> It's tricky for what Pan should do and if there should be a pan in
> blue's mixer what it should do.
>
> Cubase doesn't seem to have a demo download but they have a manual
> download which I'll take a look at for other software mixer ideas.
> Ardour seems to have something different as well with pre/post send
> effects processing (I think).
>
> > Probably best to cross that bridge when you get to it.
> > Most of the csounders out there probably aren't
> > concerned with nchnls>2 anyway, to speak nothing for
> > the number of listeners who care about it. Until there
> > becomes a big demand for it, I wouldn't sweat it.
>
> Yes, I think I'll continue on with mono/stereo issues for now and
> worry about multichannel another time.
>
> Thanks again!
> steven
>

Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

Yeah, Ardour is cool. I just wish it were stable and
documented enough for prime-time.

--- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Wow, I just took a look at Ardour and it has some
> *very* flexible
> routing.  Basically, there are banks before and
> after the fader, and
> in the banks you can add sends, inserts, or effects
> and order them in
> any way.  So you could do:
> 
> signal in -> effect 1 -> send 1 -> effect 2 ->
> effect 3 -> insert 1 ->
> effect 4 -> fader -> effect 5 -> insert 2 -> effect
> 6 -> send 2 ->
> signal out
> 
> This is quite nice I think and very, very flexible. 
> Yet, I'm not sure
> if this is ultimately all necessary to have this
> flexible a routing,
> and if not, it will add quite a bit of complication
> to rendering out
> the final mixer instrument for not much gain.  I
> will continue to
> study but thought I'd mention this here.
> 
> steven
> 
> On 2/28/06, Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> > > Everything but the last one sounds right to me.
> The
> > > problem is, in csound there seem to be several
> opcodes
> > > that take a mono signal and produce stereo
> output.
> > > Duplicating a mono effect on a stereo channel
> may not
> > > be what the user intends.
> >
> > I think I was unclear in the first email; I think
> it should duplicate
> > if the effect is mono-in/mono-out, but not
> duplicate if it is
> > mono-in/stereo-out.  So if a stereo signal comes
> in and the effect is
> > mono-in/stereo-out, it would mix the signal to
> mono first before
> > applying the affect.  If the signal is stereo and
> the effect is
> > mono-in/mono-out, then apply the mono effect to
> each channel
> > separately.
> >
> > > I'm thinking at this point it might be best to
> leave
> > > it in the hands of the user. nchnls in/out for
> > > channels AND effects. That way, if the user has
> a mono
> > > effect and nchnls=2, they have to decide what to
> do
> > > with those two signals coming in and going out,
> not
> > > blue.
> >
> > Would this be an option then, like perhaps a
> toggle button that
> > changes?  Say if the effect is less channels than
> the signal coming
> > in, then toggle between mixing the signal down or
> applying to the
> > different channels separately?  This could make
> the UI very
> > complicated, and I'm thinking that the rules
> system from above might
> > be enough and seem to be usability wise what one
> would expect.
> >
> >
> > > > Besides effects, I was also planning to
> implement
> > > > sends, though this
> > > > is complicated to me.   The program's I've
> seen
> > > > allow doing sends
> > > > pre-fader and post-fader, and this seems to
> > > > designate where in the
> > > > sending channel it sends the signal.  For the
> > > > receiving channel, I'm
> > > > not quite sure where it enters into the mix,
> if it
> > > > gets mixed in with
> > > > the other input signals that are channeled in
> to it.
> > > > Can anyone
> > > > clarify?  (This is issue is a little more
> > > > complicated than I imagined
> > > > so will likely push this to the release after
> the
> > > > effects are
> > > > implemented).
> > > >
> > >
> > > So it usually goes like this. Sequentially, each
> > > channel has a pre-fader send, a pre-fader
> return,
> > > effects in the channel (like volume, panning,
> etc.),
> > > and a post-fader send. Buses are exactly like
> > > channels, but they take channel signal(s) as
> their
> > > root input (before the pre-fader send, etc.). So
> > > here's what you do for certain tasks:
> > >
> > > GROUPING SIGNALS:
> > > When mixing, you usually arrive at the situation
> where
> > > you want to apply one single effect or volume
> control
> > > on many different channels. Instead of adjusting
> each
> > > channel individually and hoping your adjustments
> match
> > > up, you hook the post-fader sends of each
> channel into
> > > a single bus' input. Then you can apply volume
> control
> > > to that bus and also use that bus' pre-fader
> send and
> > > return for other effects, leading to:
> > >
> > > APPLYING EFFECTS:
> > > When applying effects to a signal, you usually
> want to
> > > either apply the effect on the signal first and
> then
> > > control things like the volume, panning, etc.
> (thing
> > > you do from a channel/bus), or let the effect
> control
> > > that stuff (like compression, certain stereo
> reverbs,
> > > etc.). In the first instance, you'd hook the
> pre-fader
> > > send into the effect's input, and send the
> effect's
> > > output back into the pre-fader return; now the
> channel
> > > is controling the audio signal with effects. In
> the
> > > second instance, you'd hook the post-fader send
> into
> > > the effect's input, and send the effect's output
> into
> > > the final stereo signal (or a bus).
> > >
> > > I highly recommend this link:
> > > http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm. It's the
> whole
> > > skinny, broken done in easy-to-understand terms,
> and
> > > covers everything from microphones to mastering.
> Refer
> > > to the Mixers, Mixer Hookup, and Signal Flow
> sections
> > > in particularly
> >
> > Thanks for the link!  I'm studying the Cakewalk
> Sonar Mixer from the
> > help documentation and I think there's some things
> here that make
> > sense, namely not returns, only sends.  It seems
> that sends/returns
> > make sense in a hardware mixing setup, but in
> software where there is
> > a place for effects already in the channel strips
> chain of processing,
> > returns aren't necessarily required as the results
> of the effects are
> > automatically brought back.  Having a send is
> useful for sending out
> > portion of the signal for a reverb and then you
> could control wet/dry
> > per channel, etc.  Also, in the Cakewalk mixer
> implementation, there
> > are pre/post-fader sends, but they are both after
> the effects
> > processing. So something like:
> >
> > signal in -> Effects Processing ->Pre-Fader Sends
> ->Fader/Pan ->
> > Post-Fader Sends ->signal out
> >
> > Their mixer also differentiates audio tracks
> (which are mono) and midi
> > tracks which have no capacity for sends.
> >
> > It's tricky for what Pan should do and if there
> should be a pan in
> > blue's mixer what it should do.
> >
> > Cubase doesn't seem to have a demo download but
> they have a manual
> 
=== message truncated ===


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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Michael B. <got...@ya...>]

--- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> > Everything but the last one sounds right to me.
> The
> > problem is, in csound there seem to be several
> opcodes
> > that take a mono signal and produce stereo output.
> > Duplicating a mono effect on a stereo channel may
> not
> > be what the user intends.
> 
> I think I was unclear in the first email; I think it
> should duplicate
> if the effect is mono-in/mono-out, but not duplicate
> if it is
> mono-in/stereo-out.  So if a stereo signal comes in
> and the effect is
> mono-in/stereo-out, it would mix the signal to mono
> first before
> applying the affect.  If the signal is stereo and
> the effect is
> mono-in/mono-out, then apply the mono effect to each
> channel
> separately.
> 

Yeah, I understood that correctly. I'm just thinking
it could get very confusing for the user, because,
what do you do for a mono-in/stereo out effect? It
could go either way, so...

> > I'm thinking at this point it might be best to
> leave
> > it in the hands of the user. nchnls in/out for
> > channels AND effects. That way, if the user has a
> mono
> > effect and nchnls=2, they have to decide what to
> do
> > with those two signals coming in and going out,
> not
> > blue.
> 
> Would this be an option then, like perhaps a toggle
> button that
> changes?  Say if the effect is less channels than
> the signal coming
> in, then toggle between mixing the signal down or
> applying to the
> different channels separately?  This could make the
> UI very
> complicated, and I'm thinking that the rules system
> from above might
> be enough and seem to be usability wise what one
> would expect.
> 

Not an option, but an across-the-board thing. No other
options but to have your effects and channels have
nchnls of ins/outs. Remove the confusion and let the
user sort it out however they like.

> ...
> 
> Thanks for the link!  I'm studying the Cakewalk
> Sonar Mixer from the
> help documentation and I think there's some things
> here that make
> sense, namely not returns, only sends.  It seems
> that sends/returns
> make sense in a hardware mixing setup, but in
> software where there is
> a place for effects already in the channel strips
> chain of processing,
> returns aren't necessarily required as the results
> of the effects are
> automatically brought back.

Right, the send and return is still there, it's just
built into the channel. I just didn't know how you
plan to implement effects yet, so that's why I
included that detail. But in leiu of the send/return
to effects, a pre-fader send doesn't make sense,
because otherwise why don't you just change the audio
signal to go into wherever you're sending the
pre-fader send? You might say that it's useful for
sending a certain wet/dry mix to an effect, but you
can do that with the built-in effects of the channel
anyway.

>  Having a send is useful
> for sending out
> portion of the signal for a reverb and then you
> could control wet/dry
> per channel, etc.  Also, in the Cakewalk mixer
> implementation, there
> are pre/post-fader sends, but they are both after
> the effects
> processing. So something like:
> 
> signal in -> Effects Processing ->Pre-Fader Sends
> ->Fader/Pan ->
> Post-Fader Sends ->signal out
> 

I'm confused. Where would you send the pre-fader
sends? If to an effect, again, that can be done in the
channel's Effects Processing.

Michael Bechard

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Re: [Bluemusic-users] Questions on Effects for Mixer

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Michael,

> Yeah, I understood that correctly. I'm just thinking
> it could get very confusing for the user, because,
> what do you do for a mono-in/stereo out effect? It
> could go either way, so...

Well, it could go either way unless there's a hard rule for it. Either
that, or perhaps limit it to only allow applying mono-in/stereo-out
effects if the incoming signal is mono, so it would have to be early
in the chain.


> > Would this be an option then, like perhaps a toggle
> > button that
> > changes?  Say if the effect is less channels than
> > the signal coming
> > in, then toggle between mixing the signal down or
> > applying to the
> > different channels separately?  This could make the
> > UI very
> > complicated, and I'm thinking that the rules system
> > from above might
> > be enough and seem to be usability wise what one
> > would expect.
> >
>
> Not an option, but an across-the-board thing. No other
> options but to have your effects and channels have
> nchnls of ins/outs. Remove the confusion and let the
> user sort it out however they like.

Alright, then this would prevent what you were talking about earlier
about reusing effects for both mono and stereo.  So I see either of
the following:

-User choose how to apply mismatches (mix before or apply to both channels)
-Have hard rules on mismatching
-Disable effects which can not handle nchnls in/out (so if your
project is nchnls=3D1, none of your stereo effects would show, and
vice-versa)

> > Thanks for the link!  I'm studying the Cakewalk
> > Sonar Mixer from the
> > help documentation and I think there's some things
> > here that make
> > sense, namely not returns, only sends.  It seems
> > that sends/returns
> > make sense in a hardware mixing setup, but in
> > software where there is
> > a place for effects already in the channel strips
> > chain of processing,
> > returns aren't necessarily required as the results
> > of the effects are
> > automatically brought back.
>
> Right, the send and return is still there, it's just
> built into the channel. I just didn't know how you
> plan to implement effects yet, so that's why I
> included that detail. But in leiu of the send/return
> to effects, a pre-fader send doesn't make sense,
> because otherwise why don't you just change the audio
> signal to go into wherever you're sending the
> pre-fader send? You might say that it's useful for
> sending a certain wet/dry mix to an effect, but you
> can do that with the built-in effects of the channel
> anyway.

With sends, I was imagining a scenario such as:

[channel 1]
->number of effects (eq, delays, etc.)
->send 70% to subchannel 1
->output to master

[channel 2]
->number of effects (eq, delays, none, etc.)
->send 60% to subchannel 1
->output to master

[subchannel 1]
->effects (reverb)
->output to master


In the above, with the sends, you can control how much of the signal
goes to the reverb, while the dry signal (well, signal without reverb)
will go out to master.  With the subchannel 1, you have one reverb
instance running and all signals going in share that reverb. The
reverb itself may have a wet/dry but that only applies to all signals
coming into the subchannel. With the sends, you can get an extra bit
of wet/dry control with how much you send to the subchannel 1, so if
you wanted to place something a bit more forward in the mix/sound
stage, you could do it with this.

Currently the mixer system in 0.103.0 allows routing the output of the
entire channel to a subchannel or the master, and the subchannels can
route to other subchannels or the master.  The sends would add just a
little more control if you need it, and if you don't need it you can
ignore it.

> >  Having a send is useful
> > for sending out
> > portion of the signal for a reverb and then you
> > could control wet/dry
> > per channel, etc.  Also, in the Cakewalk mixer
> > implementation, there
> > are pre/post-fader sends, but they are both after
> > the effects
> > processing. So something like:
> >
> > signal in -> Effects Processing ->Pre-Fader Sends
> > ->Fader/Pan ->
> > Post-Fader Sends ->signal out
> >
>
> I'm confused. Where would you send the pre-fader
> sends? If to an effect, again, that can be done in the
> channel's Effects Processing.

WIth the scenario above, the signal in the send goes to a subchannel
which will act as a sort of group effect.

As a status update, I'm fairly close to finishing the EffectLibrary to
edit and organize effects.  In terms of UI, I am beginning to lean
towards Ardour's implementation of having bins before and after the
fader in a channel, and in each bin you can choose to add either
effects or sends in any order, which I think gives the most
flexibility as the user can really determine how they want to organize
the signal flow of the channel.  Inserts are not so useful I think in
the context of blue's mixer as I believe Ardour's is there to handle
actual sends/inserts to external hardware, something which I don't
plan to support.

BTW: I appreciate very much this conversation!  It's been incredibly
helpful to discuss and analyze mixers with you and has really helped
shape up the implementation.  I just hope we can get all the details
sorted out!

steven