binarycloud-general — general forum for support and discussion of binarycloud

[binarycloud-general] ugh, module caching is done

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

agh, just spent an hour hunting a stupid bug....

but, finally, I can go eat lunch. and Module caching works.

so, now you can cache page output by request uri and variable value, and
cache module output by name, optionally uri, and variable value.

I'll do a sync now.

_a

RE: [binarycloud-general] big new stuff! Page class...

[Andreas A. <a.a...@th...>]

Hi Alex,


> Here's the trick: that syntax is available from _anywhere_. You can put it
> in masters, layouts, module templates, includes, whatever! :)
Cooooooooooooooooool. :-D

> > above. I think this breaks xml conformance. But as I said, nice to have.
> > Especially for small "just-presentation" pages.
> In this case I'm not so concerned with xml conformance, if you were big on
> that you could make sure your page defs used xhtml, and validated
> as xml...
> that would be fine.
And for the ones who want to be strict they can use the
"non-static-pages"-bcp syntax. I like that bc has this flexiblity. Be
strict, be lax, be bc ;-)


> long as a month before the first revs are in the system. I've
> been focusing on other things for my business recently,
> so I don't have the
> kind of time Iwould like to devote to r2. But it will all happen...
Ok, Fine :-)


Andi

Re: [binarycloud-general] big new stuff! Page class...

[alex b. <en...@tu...>]

> Cool. This ebedding syntax will also be availabel for the layouts and
> masters templates, I guess? So that acutally a "real" template system
(xslt,
> smarty etc)  is only required in the modules itself 'caus in layouts/ and
> masters/ are only module outputs embedded that are translated to php calls
> ($Page->output[...]) on compile time?

Here's the trick: that syntax is available from _anywhere_. You can put it
in masters, layouts, module templates, includes, whatever! :)

> > Why is this worthwhile?
> >
> > It means you can forego using layouts and module lists if you
> > don't need the advanced features page offers (load/init ordering, etc) -
> and
> > it's obviously convenient for embedding modules _anywhere_ (yes, you
could
> > embed one module's output in another module's output!)
> Groovy.
>
> > I'm sure there will be questions on this, fire away!

> I think this feauture is nice to have but might be a bit confusing.
> Especially if one embedds html markup in the xml page definition like
shown
> above. I think this breaks xml conformance. But as I said, nice to have.
> Especially for small "just-presentation" pages.

In this case I'm not so concerned with xml conformance, if you were big on
that you could make sure your page defs used xhtml, and validated as xml...
that would be fine.

then again it would also be fine if they didn't within <markup>

> BTW: How far are you with the Query/Entity Manager stuff?

I expect there to be a bit of delay integrating that stuff, it could be as
long as a month before the first revs are in the system. I've been focusing
on other things for my business recently, so I don't have the kind of time I
would like to devote to r2. But it will all happen...

best,

_alex

RE: [binarycloud-general] big new stuff! Page class...

[Andreas A. <a.a...@th...>]

Hi Alex,

> I like this syntax because it allows non-programmer users to define pages
> and embed modules without worrying about php syntax - they use
> familiar tags
> to call in modules that programmers provide.
Cool. This ebedding syntax will also be availabel for the layouts and
masters templates, I guess? So that acutally a "real" template system (xslt,
smarty etc)  is only required in the modules itself 'caus in layouts/ and
masters/ are only module outputs embedded that are translated to php calls
($Page->output[...]) on compile time?

> Why is this worthwhile?
>
> It means you can forego using layouts and module lists if you
> don't need the advanced features page offers (load/init ordering, etc) -
and
> it's obviously convenient for embedding modules _anywhere_ (yes, you could
> embed one module's output in another module's output!)
Groovy.

> I'm sure there will be questions on this, fire away!
I think this feauture is nice to have but might be a bit confusing.
Especially if one embedds html markup in the xml page definition like shown
above. I think this breaks xml conformance. But as I said, nice to have.
Especially for small "just-presentation" pages.

BTW: How far are you with the Query/Entity Manager stuff?


Andi

[binarycloud-general] Practical use of r2

[Phillip S. <te...@al...>]

Greetings.

I've been lurking on this list for awhile now, and have an interest
in BC's capabilities.  I consider myself to be an intermediate PHP
developer, and am contemplating the possibility of using r2 as the
framework for a project.

Specifically, there is an existing open source project [ Ministry of
Truth - http://mot.sourceforge.net ] that is no longer being actively
maintained.  I am giving serious thought to picking up development
because I've not found any other software that fills the same niche,
and because I've spoken with the original author who has encouraged me to
do so. The problem with this is that I am not comfortable with the way its
idea/essence is currently implemented, and would really want to rebuild it
from the ground up (the TODO and feature list is long, and it seems pointless
to try re-inventing the wheel with what's there).  For those that don't
care to visit the website, MOT currently allows one to group db tables/fields
relationally into larger more useful things (e.g project tracking,
hardware/software inventory, etc.), all without having to know anything about
html/php/sql (given that it was originally written in 1998 and includes its
own built-in XML parser, it's still an impressive and usable piece of
software).

r2 would appear to be a candidate for a new MOT framework (other
possibilites might be Horde [ http://www.horde.org/ ]), but I have concerns
about how to create a distributable "product" based on it (MOT will continue
to be strictly GPL, of course).  I'm having difficulty envisoning how I
would incorporate it in such a way as to minimize the setup requirements for
my user base.  For some, getting Apache and PHP installed is enough of a
hurdle (not everyone uses .rpm or .deb based systems).  Would I say "you
need Apache, PHP (plus all it's special dependencies), and r2 .. after you
fight with that, you use MOT as a plug-in", or is there a recommended way I
could easily encapsulate r2's overhead into my configuration system?  I would
like to be able to say "Here's MOT.  Run the installer." once they have
met the Apache/PHP requirement.

Second, how viable is r2 as a development platform right now?  Obviously
it's still under heavy development, but is it becoming mature enough to
start building production-quality applications?  I expect that it will take
me a few weeks to spec out what I will include as part of the initial rewrite
of MOT (its existing functionality plus a subset of the TODO), so my question
is more focused on the "stable" parts of r2.  In other words, which
components of MOT can I concentrate on re-implementing now using the least
changing parts of r2?  The website/documentation doesn't give a clear
indication of what's complete and what's not.. guess I can always dive
in and find out though.

Looking at the mailing list archives, I see that some of my questions
are answered (lots of recommendations from Alex to use r2 over r1 at this
point).  The recent "BC quick-start guide" thread is helpful, but I don't
see anyone trying to use BC for something like this (most uses seem to be
for custom website projects rather than a self-contained, portable web
application).  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Just to be clear, I'm not in a major hurry here.  If I was, then I would go
ahead and consider r1 and worry about the conversion issues later.  I get
the feeling though that I will be able to plan my goals around r2's
development cycle, and that enough of r2 is complete now.  It would be
helpful to have some idea on the overall status and usability of specific r2
sections (documentation on all this once r2 is finished is great, but I
would still like to start developing now), and I would appreciate general
feedback from anyone who is currently using it to do productive things.

Thanks in advance.

-phillip

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 UNIX Systems Administrator	*windowmaker.org site maintainer
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[binarycloud-general] big new stuff! Page class...

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

hi all,

I just commited and will soon sync to sf cvs:

    -The Page class can now do "static" module output. Ok, what the hell are
you talking about? :) static module output is an embedded call in markup
that loads and outputs the given modules. My intent is for users to be able
to define binarycloud pages in xml like this:

<page>
    <init>
        ...
    </init>
    <templates>
        ...
    </templates>
    <markup>

    <p align="right">
    <bc:module name="HelloWorld" package="hello_world" id="module_id">
        <param:any_api_param>value</param:any_api_param>
    </bc:module>
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
    <tr>
    <td valign="top">
    <bc:module name="Example" package="example_package" id="module_id">
        <param:any_api_param>value</param:any_api_param>
    </bc:module>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
    <bc:module name="OtherWorld" package="hello_world" id="module_id">
        <param:any_api_param>value</param:any_api_param>
    </bc:module>
    </td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    <hr>

    </markup>
</page>


or like this:

<page>
    <init>
        <ini>true</ini>
        <auth>false</auth>
        <perm>false</perm>
        <sess>true</sess>
        <lang>true</lang>
        <cache>true</cache>
    </init>
    <templates>
        <default>
            <name>exmaple_master</name>
            <package>html.masters</package>
            <type>html</type>
        </default>
    </templates>
    <modules>
        <content>
            <layout>
                <name>exmaple_layout</name>
                <package>html.layouts</package>
            </layout>
            <load>
                <module>
                    <id>product_list</id>
                    <name>ProductLister</name>
                    <package>user.mod.products</package>
                    <load_order>1</load_order>
                    <params>
                        <example>this is an option value</example>
                        <another>1</another>
                    </params>
                </module>
                <module>
                    <id>product_delete</id>
                    <name>DeleteProduct</name>
                    <package>user.mod.products</package>
                    <load_order>2</load_order>
                </module>
            </load>
        </content>
    </modules>
</page>


In the first example, you'll see there there is still a basic page
definition: core components, a master template, etc - but notice that there
is no modules array, and there is _markup_ in the page definition. Then,
have a look at <bc:module> tags - these will be interpreted (I say will,
because I haven't done that yet) at make-time into this:

<? $Page->BuildModule(array('name' => 'HelloWorld','package' =>
'hello_world','id' => 'first_one')); ?>

etc.

You can have a look at user/htdocs/static_module.php for an idea.

I like this syntax because it allows non-programmer users to define pages
and embed modules without worrying about php syntax - they use familiar tags
to call in modules that programmers provide.

Why is this worthwhile?

It means you can forego using layouts and module lists if you don't need the
advanced features page offers (load/init ordering, etc) - and it's obviously
convenient for embedding modules _anywhere_ (yes, you could embed one
module's output in another module's output!)

Oh yeah, I also made sure that these "new style pages" are cacheable
(user/htdocs/static_module.php is cached, for example)

I'm sure there will be questions on this, fire away!

:)

_alex


--
alex black, ceo
en...@tu...

the turing studio, inc.
http://www.turingstudio.com

vox+510.666.0074
fax+510.666.0093

Re: [binarycloud-general] structure

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

> I've moved this from dev since its a "duh" question. I've seen this type of
> structure all over r2 and can't seem to grasp the
> logic:
> 
>>>>> 
> $modXSettings = array(
> "foo" => array(
> "name" => "Peter",
> "other" => "Pan"
> ),
> perms => "god"
> );
>>>>> 
> 
> Would someone be willing to explain what's going on here and why? An array
> within an array, I can see the usefulness in that I *think*, but a such a
> complex matrix hardly seems ubiquitously useful as this structure is
> referenced in r2.

It's a nested hierarchy.

Think of it as xml:

<modXSettings>
    <foo>
        <name>Peter</name>
        <other>other</other>
    </foo>
    <perms>god</perms>
</modXSettings>

It is the most efficient way to store a set of data, i.e. in one variable
that has some defined structure.

You reference it with:

$modXSettings['foo']['name']
etc

best,

_alex

[binarycloud-general] structure

[Alby L. <al...@th...>]

I've moved this from dev since its a "duh" question. I've seen this type of
structure all over r2 and can't seem to grasp the
logic:

>>>>
$modXSettings = array(
"foo" => array(
"name" => "Peter",
"other" => "Pan"
),
perms => "god"
);
>>>>

Would someone be willing to explain what's going on here and why? An array
within an array, I can see the usefulness in that I *think*, but a such a
complex matrix hardly seems ubiquitously useful as this structure is
referenced in r2.

Alby

Re: [binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[alex b. <en...@tu...>]

> Well, the BC_PATH and BUILD_PATH that live in build/en/htdocs/prepend.php
> were set to /u02/home/odysseas/r2/binarycloud after running make even
though
> I had $BCHOME set. Once I set them by hand things worked okay. Also having
> the php short tag '<?' turned off causes pretty much everything to break
but
> thats not really a bug I guess.

If you did a make, that shouldn't be the case. I'll look into it.

I'll add the short tag warning in install.

>
> But if I do go down that path I run the risk of having to retool
everything
> down road anyway right?

Yes. _but_ if you have a functioning system (which r1 auth/perm is) you can
choose when to do that re-write or if you'd like to do it at all.

> What's the nature of the applications that are being built with BC? The
site
> Im working on will be used to manage some *very* large catalogs of data.
> Interface-wise there won't be much to it in the beginning.

I've built mostly complex web applications, not dealing with huge amounts of
data, but I have no reason to believe that metabase isn't up to it.

Nothing in binarycloud will present you any with any problems, that I can
think of. It's all up to you re: how you write modules.

> >
> >I'm working on something that will simplify page authoring for those that
> >don't need tight control over load order, etc. But authoring pages in XML
> >will be really easy anyway :)
>
> But doesn't that work against me if Im relying on another person who only
> groks html to do the page layouts?

Not really. They can write the layouts and you can insert the module calls.
Or you can pass them html-only templates, which they work on, and pass back
to you.

> That's another question I have. When does the conversion from xml to php
> take place? When I run make? Will I have to 'remake' my whole site when I
> change just one xml file?

No, there's a makefile in nearly every directory, and we're probably going
do add automake to insetr makefiles down to every dir in the source tree, so

if you modify 2 files in a dir, you can do a make in 3 seconds.

> >Also, remember: the system is a set of tools, the only "requirements"
> >really are associated with Module method naming.
>
> Which is really what we need.

:_)

> >
> >One of the things I will do later is build a series of "variant" pages
and
> >applications to give users a feel for the flexibility of the system.
Other
> >things first, though :)
>
> This would make things much clearer and lower the learning curve quite a
> bit.

Agreed. Because the system isn't cmoplete yet, I want to avoid spending time
on that stuff and get it working, but believe me when I say I have every
intention of documenting the s*it out of this system, and making very clear
how it can be used.

As always I'm happy to answer any questions.

> >I lead two projects of similar size, one with bc and one without. The
> >project without bc was much harder to deal with because I didn't have a
> >good
> >mechanism for controlling the condebase my contractors were generating.
The
> >second project, with binarycloud r1, took ~half the time to complete,
with
> >much higher quality code when the project was done.
>
> Did the problems arise because the first team was having to implement alot
> of features already present in R1? Given that, I would expect the code
from
> team 2 to be better because the could spend more time on the core instead
of
> the support services. But that is just what you said :)

Correct, and binarycloud _does_ enforce a _little_ structure on your code,
and provides you with a great system for maintaining code and comment
standards.

> >I haven't done a production cycle with R2, but I can tell you that many
of
> >the ideas in R1 have been refined based on experiences with the system,
and
> >it will save you time if you're willing to be disciplined (i.e.
maintaining
> >coding standards, phpDoc, etc etc.)
>
> I've already documented my classes using PHPDoc. After having been
immersed
> in JavaDoc I understand the power of systems like it.

Yes, I love it. It keeps system documentation in context, instead of in some
other stupid file that you always forget to edit :)

> >The page render pipeline in r2 is quite mature and powerful, building
> >modules is fast and efficient (and obviously serves to break up your
> >application into useable, easily debuggable components)
>
> This is an approach Ive already started using so migrating my current code
> to BC won't be terribly painful. But once I start down that path I don't
> want to have to revert so it's that first leap of faith that Im having
> trouble with at the moment.

Ok, so first:
if you have a functioning system _now_ you can only gain by converting to
bc. If you want to use some of the new tools down the road, then feel free
to do rewrites as needed. But BC doesn't force a thing on you, so if you
don't like metabase, don't use it.

I will ask that any conributed modules that would be distributsed with the
system adhere to certain standards, but there is _nothing_ in the system
that will enforce those rules.

> >However, as you have pointed out, r2 isn't done. Though simple, the r1
> >auth/perm system is quite robust, I'm using it in production now. You
could
> >probably get them working in a day.
>
> So hypothetically if I decide to just go with R1 and wait for R2 to bake a
> little longer what's the migration path? Should I even bother? Pros and
> Cons?

Don't bother.
I strongly encourage you to get r1 auth/perm working with r1 instead of
using r1. R1 is Procedural code (well, 90% of it anyway) and it does work
well, but for obvious reasons a pure OO system is far more maintanable and
architecturally clean.

by all means use R1 as a reference, but don't use it in production: r2 even
at this stage is more mature.

> >
> >The remaining tasks are related to EntityManager and the make system:
>
> I happen to have written an EntityManager class for my stuff. This will
> cause problems no?

Nope. Just put it in user/lib and run a make, you'll have access to it with
import('user.lib.YourEntityManagername');

:)

_alex


> James
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Re: [binarycloud-general] Metabase setup in R2

[alex b. <en...@tu...>]

> So after getting through the make process I have a working index page.
w00t!

cool!

> Now I would like to better understand how R2 uses metabase and thus
> understand how I can use it. Ive read through the tutorial but it's not BC

At the moment, r2 doens't "use it" per se - because QueryManager hasn't been
integrated into the system. There is nothing that would prevent you from
using the PEAR DB abstraction layer, actually.

Metabase is what all of the r1 code uses, and what QueryManager will use
when it is integrate into the system. For the moment, metabase is importable
from the binarycloud/ext/ tree.

> specific. There are files in build/en/ext/metabase and
> build/en/user/db/schema that suggest there is a process in place to create
> the tables that BC needs but I can't find the entry point. Is the glue for
> this not yet written?

Correct: the schemas are from r1 and aren't used at the moment - though
again you could use them to create a functioning r1-style auth/perm system.

> Should I be posting to binarycloud-dev instead?

general is fine, but I think -dev is better :_)

_a

RE: [binarycloud-general] Metabase setup in R2

[Andreas A. <a.a...@th...>]

Hi James,

> Now I would like to better understand how R2 uses metabase and thus
> understand how I can use it.


How I currently deal with it:

[1] I have libs that are dealing with the database interfacing. e.g. a
manager class for managing resources (doing queries, file operations).  This
class imports metabase stuff at the very beginning. e.g.:

r2/binarycloud/user/lib/MgrResources.php:
// {{{
import('user.lib.Exception');
import('user.conf.datasources');
import('ext.metabase.metabase_database');
import('ext.metabase.metabase_interface');
import('ext.metabase.metabase_mcrypt');

class MgrResources {
	function MgrResources() {
		MetabaseSetup etc like described in docs
	}

	function Lister() {}
	function ListById() {}
	function Add() {}
	function Set() {}
	...
};
// }}}

[2] I wrote a module package for managing resources:
r2/binarycloud/user/mod/manage_resources/ consisting of 4 atomic modules
ListResources, DeleteResource, AddResource, EditResource. Those modules are
importing my manager in the constructor and using smarty to generate the
html output.

e.g. (simplified for better illustration)

// {{{
class ListResources {

	var $mgr; //my manager
	var $tpl;  // my template

	function ListResources($_params) {
		import('user.lib.MgrResources');
		import('user.lib.Template'); // includes ext.smarty.stuff

		// doing other stuff, switch(action) or something else

		// aggregation
		$this->mgr =& new MgrResources();
		$this->tpl =& new Template();
		$this->tpl->SetPath(BC_PATH_MOD.'manage_resources/html');

		$result =& $this->mgr->Lister();
		$this->tpl->assign('RESULT', $result);
		return true;
	}

	function Output() {
		$this->tpl->display('list.xhtml');
		return true;
	}
};
// }}}


And that works very good. No, wait: most excellent :-)


Andi

[binarycloud-general] Metabase setup in R2

[James M. <foo...@ho...>]

So after getting through the make process I have a working index page. w00t!

Now I would like to better understand how R2 uses metabase and thus 
understand how I can use it. Ive read through the tutorial but it's not BC 
specific. There are files in build/en/ext/metabase and 
build/en/user/db/schema that suggest there is a process in place to create 
the tables that BC needs but I can't find the entry point. Is the glue for 
this not yet written?

Should I be posting to binarycloud-dev instead?

-James

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Re: [binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[James M. <foo...@ho...>]

> > Okay after rooting through things I've got it all working although the
> > install process is a bit buggy. Im running against the current CVS BTW.
>
>Can you define "a bit buggy?" - assuming you do a make it should be happy.

Well, the BC_PATH and BUILD_PATH that live in build/en/htdocs/prepend.php 
were set to /u02/home/odysseas/r2/binarycloud after running make even though 
I had $BCHOME set. Once I set them by hand things worked okay. Also having 
the php short tag '<?' turned off causes pretty much everything to break but 
thats not really a bug I guess.

> >> What's "missing":
> >>     -A second generation authentication system. If you _really_ need 
>one,
> >> you could probably get R1 Auth/Perm (which are quite effective, and
> >> production tested - but 'simple') working with R2.
> >
> > Are you suggesting I use R1 or just cut out that piece and graft it to 
>R2?
>
>The latter, though I would encourage you to wait just a little, because the
>new auth/perm stuff is a hell of a lot more advanced.
>
>But, note that Auth.php and Perm.php are "classified" already from R1, so
>you could probably get them running pretty fast.

But if I do go down that path I run the risk of having to retool everything 
down road anyway right?

> > Also, Im wondering if we need the fine grain abstraction that BC 
>provides.
> > We need some of BC's services but Im concerned that the overhead of the 
>page
> > abstraction is going to be too high to develop our pages rapidly.
>
>I've built huge applications with it, and it speeds everything up. Because
>you need to be organized about using modules, nothing gets "lost" in
>include-land.

What's the nature of the applications that are being built with BC? The site 
Im working on will be used to manage some *very* large catalogs of data. 
Interface-wise there won't be much to it in the beginning.

>
>I'm working on something that will simplify page authoring for those that
>don't need tight control over load order, etc. But authoring pages in XML
>will be really easy anyway :)

But doesn't that work against me if Im relying on another person who only 
groks html to do the page layouts?

That's another question I have. When does the conversion from xml to php 
take place? When I run make? Will I have to 'remake' my whole site when I 
change just one xml file?

>
>Also, remember: the system is a set of tools, the only "requirements"
>really are associated with Module method naming.

Which is really what we need.

>
>One of the things I will do later is build a series of "variant" pages and
>applications to give users a feel for the flexibility of the system. Other
>things first, though :)

This would make things much clearer and lower the learning curve quite a 
bit.

>I lead two projects of similar size, one with bc and one without. The
>project without bc was much harder to deal with because I didn't have a 
>good
>mechanism for controlling the condebase my contractors were generating. The
>second project, with binarycloud r1, took ~half the time to complete, with
>much higher quality code when the project was done.

Did the problems arise because the first team was having to implement alot 
of features already present in R1? Given that, I would expect the code from 
team 2 to be better because the could spend more time on the core instead of 
the support services. But that is just what you said :)

>I haven't done a production cycle with R2, but I can tell you that many of
>the ideas in R1 have been refined based on experiences with the system, and
>it will save you time if you're willing to be disciplined (i.e. maintaining
>coding standards, phpDoc, etc etc.)

I've already documented my classes using PHPDoc. After having been immersed 
in JavaDoc I understand the power of systems like it.

>The page render pipeline in r2 is quite mature and powerful, building
>modules is fast and efficient (and obviously serves to break up your
>application into useable, easily debuggable components)

This is an approach Ive already started using so migrating my current code 
to BC won't be terribly painful. But once I start down that path I don't 
want to have to revert so it's that first leap of faith that Im having 
trouble with at the moment.

>However, as you have pointed out, r2 isn't done. Though simple, the r1
>auth/perm system is quite robust, I'm using it in production now. You could
>probably get them working in a day.

So hypothetically if I decide to just go with R1 and wait for R2 to bake a 
little longer what's the migration path? Should I even bother? Pros and 
Cons?

>
>The remaining tasks are related to EntityManager and the make system:

I happen to have written an EntityManager class for my stuff. This will 
cause problems no?

James

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Re: [binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

>> You're building pages, and modules to use in those pages. Have a look at
>> index.php, note that it's a definition of a series of modules, and
>> templates. you can find all of those files in user/mod/,
>> user/tmpl/html/layouts and user/tmpl/html/masters
> 
> Okay after rooting through things I've got it all working although the
> install process is a bit buggy. Im running against the current CVS BTW.

Can you define "a bit buggy?" - assuming you do a make it should be happy.

>> What's "missing":
>>     -A second generation authentication system. If you _really_ need one,
>> you could probably get R1 Auth/Perm (which are quite effective, and
>> production tested - but 'simple') working with R2.
> 
> Are you suggesting I use R1 or just cut out that piece and graft it to R2?

The latter, though I would encourage you to wait just a little, because the
new auth/perm stuff is a hell of a lot more advanced.

But, note that Auth.php and Perm.php are "classified" already from R1, so
you could probably get them running pretty fast.

>>     -Some miscellany: I haven't started using Andreas' Request Class
>> (that's
>> actually next on the list)
> 
> I was looking at writing something just like this myself.

Oh, it's in CVS and as far as I can tell it's extremely groovy code. We're
going to "enforce" the use of Request for all binarycloud-distro modules.

>>     -Some things are still moving targets - I'm sure we'll com across
>> things
>> we have to change, etc as development progresses.
>> 
>> _but_ and I canot stress this enough:
>>     -The module structure and method naming scheme is now written in
>> stone:
>>             Constructor called to 'init' the module, Output() called to
>> (you
>> guessed it) generate output.
>> 
> 
> So your advice is to start using R2? My group has set a loose deadline of
> the 31st to bring a beta of our site up and the missing auth and perm stuff
> is a show stopper. Is there a roadmap for these things on your TODO list?

If you're looking for the 31st, I suggest you use R1 Auth/Perm.
There is a TODO, but I don't have a project schedule outlined because it
would fluctuate as I have more and less time because of projects.

> Also, Im wondering if we need the fine grain abstraction that BC provides.
> We need some of BC's services but Im concerned that the overhead of the page
> abstraction is going to be too high to develop our pages rapidly.

I've built huge applications with it, and it speeds everything up. Because
you need to be organized about using modules, nothing gets "lost" in
include-land.

I'm working on something that will simplify page authoring for those that
don't need tight control over load order, etc. But authoring pages in XML
will be really easy anyway :)

Also, remember: the system is a set of tools, the only "requirements"
really are associated with Module method naming.

You can do all kinds of crazy things: if you don't like master templates use
includes in a prepend, or use a module to output header and footer, or
etc....

My point is that the system can be turned to do things very differently from
what you see in the "default" cvs version.

One of the things I will do later is build a series of "variant" pages and
applications to give users a feel for the flexibility of the system. Other
things first, though :)


> I would love to hear from other people that have gone though a full
> development cycle with BC.

I can give you my experience, biased though it is:

I lead two projects of similar size, one with bc and one without. The
project without bc was much harder to deal with because I didn't have a good
mechanism for controlling the condebase my contractors were generating. The
second project, with binarycloud r1, took ~half the time to complete, with
much higher quality code when the project was done.

I haven't done a production cycle with R2, but I can tell you that many of
the ideas in R1 have been refined based on experiences with the system, and
it will save you time if you're willing to be disciplined (i.e. maintaining
coding standards, phpDoc, etc etc.)

The page render pipeline in r2 is quite mature and powerful, building
modules is fast and efficient (and obviously serves to break up your
application into useable, easily debuggable components)

However, as you have pointed out, r2 isn't done. Though simple, the r1
auth/perm system is quite robust, I'm using it in production now. You could
probably get them working in a day.

The remaining tasks are related to EntityManager and the make system:

    -"multi site" make
    -Authentication system, PolicyManager
    -Pemissions
    -Managers: Entity, Query, Template, etc.
    -"default" module associations with master templates
    -Integrate PHPDoc into the make process
    -Test PEAR_Error further (note that pear error is up and running with
the current system, PEAR is imported as part of the init process for r2..
but we might extend it to do some stacking, etc.
    -Use the Request class throughout the system (this is relatively simple)
    -Get xml2php running for page definitions, language defs, datasources,
etc.
    -Get LanguageKeyer working with xml string repositories (language
selection and path setting works fine right now, but there's no language
keyer for abstracting "application" strings.

best,

_alex

Re: [binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[James M. <foo...@ho...>]

>You're building pages, and modules to use in those pages. Have a look at
>index.php, note that it's a definition of a series of modules, and
>templates. you can find all of those files in user/mod/,
>user/tmpl/html/layouts and user/tmpl/html/masters

Okay after rooting through things I've got it all working although the 
install process is a bit buggy. Im running against the current CVS BTW.

>What's "missing":
>     -A second generation authentication system. If you _really_ need one,
>you could probably get R1 Auth/Perm (which are quite effective, and
>production tested - but 'simple') working with R2.

Are you suggesting I use R1 or just cut out that piece and graft it to R2?

>     -Some miscellany: I haven't started using Andreas' Request Class 
>(that's
>actually next on the list)

I was looking at writing something just like this myself.

>     -Some things are still moving targets - I'm sure we'll com across 
>things
>we have to change, etc as development progresses.
>
>_but_ and I canot stress this enough:
>     -The module structure and method naming scheme is now written in 
>stone:
>             Constructor called to 'init' the module, Output() called to 
>(you
>guessed it) generate output.
>

So your advice is to start using R2? My group has set a loose deadline of 
the 31st to bring a beta of our site up and the missing auth and perm stuff 
is a show stopper. Is there a roadmap for these things on your TODO list?

Also, Im wondering if we need the fine grain abstraction that BC provides. 
We need some of BC's services but Im concerned that the overhead of the page 
abstraction is going to be too high to develop our pages rapidly.

I would love to hear from other people that have gone though a full 
development cycle with BC.

Thanks,
-James-

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Re: [binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[alex b. <en...@tu...>]

> I recently began building what will become a very large PHP-powered site.
> I've got most of the core objects and managers built but there are two
that
> I need badly right now namely auth.(and a permission system) and db
> abstraction. I would just start using PEAR but there is no auth mechanisms

For DB Abstraction, you can use metabase, which you can import directly now
with ext.metabase.whatever the metabase core file is called, can't remember
:)

That will work fine for "direct" queries.

>  yet. I hacked on PHPLIB about 2 years ago and remember it being kind of
> painful and ungainly to work with plus it doesn't appear to have any PHP4
> clue still.

I would not recommend PHPLib at this point, the whole thing is in flux, and
yes still no php4.

> So here I am with BC. I looked at R2 and it's really not clear to me how
to
> get started with it. Is there a quick-start guide anywhere? Should I even
be

You're building pages, and modules to use in those pages. Have a look at
index.php, note that it's a definition of a series of modules, and
templates. you can find all of those files in user/mod/,
user/tmpl/html/layouts and user/tmpl/html/masters

> messing with R2? MetBase looks really cool but again Im a bit lost as to
how

The r2 page pipeline is basically done, I'm going to add module caching
shortly but those are advances features you can use without modifying any of
your module code.

What's "missing":
    -You can't 'make' xml into php yet, you'll have to hand code page
definitions.
    -Some "secondary" modifications I intend to make to the page render
pipeline (including the ability to insert an XML module definition for
'static' rendering in a page, and almost competely forego a page definition
    -The entityManager and most of its support infrastrucutre
    -A second generation authentication system. If you _really_ need one,
you could probably get R1 Auth/Perm (which are quite effective, and
production tested - but 'simple') working with R2.
    -Some miscellany: I haven't started using Andreas' Request Class (that's
actually next on the list)
    -Some things are still moving targets - I'm sure we'll com across things
we have to change, etc as development progresses.

_but_ and I canot stress this enough:
    -The module structure and method naming scheme is now written in stone:
            Constructor called to 'init' the module, Output() called to (you
guessed it) generate output.

> to get started with it. IF there's a FM and I need to read it, please
point
> me in that direction.

http://www.binarycloud.com/documentation/r1/metabase_docs.phtml

is the metabase documentation. it's quite complete.

Obviously I've had requests to build documentation for bc, which I am
doing - but I'm loth to spend time on that instead of development time to
get the system fully operational. Once that's done I intend to do full
DocBook docs for the project (with some people's help, I'm sure :):)

If you have any questions after the above, I an others are happy to help as
much as we can.

best,

_alex

[binarycloud-general] BC quick-start guide?

[james m. <foo...@ho...>]

I recently began building what will become a very large PHP-powered site. 
I've got most of the core objects and managers built but there are two that 
I need badly right now namely auth.(and a permission system) and db 
abstraction. I would just start using PEAR but there is no auth mechanisms 
yet. I hacked on PHPLIB about 2 years ago and remember it being kind of 
painful and ungainly to work with plus it doesn't appear to have any PHP4 
clue still.

So here I am with BC. I looked at R2 and it's really not clear to me how to 
get started with it. Is there a quick-start guide anywhere? Should I even be 
messing with R2? MetBase looks really cool but again Im a bit lost as to how 
to get started with it. IF there's a FM and I need to read it, please point 
me in that direction.

_________________________________________________________________
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[binarycloud-general] bc_edit

[Bruce D. <br...@ap...>]

I have just installed the latest r2 from cvs onto a Linux server.

I am trying to run bc_edit
Parse error: parse error in /usr/home/cs/web/staging/binarycloud/resources/bc_edit/example.html on line 12

I assume this is the line with the error

<?import namespace="cms" implementation="bc_edit.htc" />

Please let me know what I am missing.


Also when I try to run graph.php

Warning: Failed opening 
'/usr/home/cs/web/r2/binarycloud/build/en/user/mod/set_lang_example/Set_Lang_Example.php' for inclusion 
(include_path='/usr/home/cs/web/r2/binarycloud/build/en/ext/pear') in 
/usr/home/cs/web/staging/binarycloud/prepend.php on line 33

Fatal error: Cannot instantiate non-existent class: set_lang_example in 
/usr/home/cs/web/r2/binarycloud/build/en/binarycloud/core/Page.php on line 147

The file is actually there but the include_path seems to be screwing things up.

Thanks

Bruce

[binarycloud-general] Re: [binarycloud-dev] php security primer

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

http://www.securereality.com.au/studyinscarlet.txt

And... here we go :)

3. Global Variables
---------------------
"The problem is that the code incorrectly assumes that the variable $auth
will be empty unless it sets it. Remembering that an attacker can create
variables in the global namespace, a url like
'http://server/test.php?auth=1' will fail the password
check but the script will still believe the attacker has successfully
authenticated."

First: under no circumstances should you assume that a variable is set to
"what you expect". Second, and more importantly, this is the reason there's
a request class in r2: for explicitly requesting values from the "user
space" instead of having register_globals on in php.ini and opening up your
application to attack.

register_globals is convenient, but it is dangerous, as this article points
out.

4. Remote Files
---------------------
This is actually not different from "Global Variables" above, and obviously
you should never take entire paths from the user for inclusion. You should
also, (of course) make sure that your webserver is running as a user in a
group by itself, and ensure that permissions in your fs are properly set.
Best is to chroot apache.

5. File Upload
---------------------
Uh, notice a trend here?
turn _off_ register_globals, and all is well :)

6. Library Files
---------------------
Heh, don't include your library files in htdocs where thy can be served?!
(duh!?! :)

7. Session Files
---------------------
Again, global variables.

8. Loose Typing And Associative Arrays
---------------------
I agree with this, though I don't think (including the above) that it poses
a security risk. This is an extremely simple expression of the idea that an
application needs "central" validation logic which is used everywhere.. the
complex version is... entities!

9. Target Functions
---------------------
I don't think there is a good place for eval() in a well written
application. It is of course a security risk, unless you're _really_ sure of
the content of the string you are evaling.

In general, executing apps "on the command line" though php is a no-no, and
a security risk. Of course if you're careful about how you do it, and you do
really need to do it, it's fine.


10. Protecting PHP
---------------------
heheh:
* = Mostly painless
** = Vaguely painful
*** = Seriously hurts
**** = Chinese Water Torture

**** - Set register_globals off
(thus, the request class :)

*** - Set safe_mode on
(ick, this is a pain in the ass)

** - Set display_errors off, log_errors on
(Agreed, this is a part of the error handling infrastructure in bc)


11. Responsibility - Language Vs Programmer
---------------------
"I contend that it is very hard to write a secure PHP application (in the
default configuration of PHP), even if you try."

Bullshit. You do have to think about what you are doing, but really, in most
cases all you have to do is use a little common sense.

Don't use global variables to set include paths, don't blindly use values
from globals, etc etc.

All of this stuff has to do with globals! If you solve the globals problem,
everything else is no big deal. ASP's 'Request' class (*cough*, yes I know
MS n' all) - is the right idea.

"Web designers and other non coders end up writing PHP applications."
I'm part web designer, but I get the point. Of course this is sort of like
saying stupid people don't drive well and it's the car's fault :)

"In its search for the ultimate functionality PHP has undermined the
programmer's ability to understand the workings of their code in all
situations."

Again, bullshit. I think proper namespaces would be nice, but php code (even
if it's spaghetti) is almost _always_ easy to read. Anyone ever try
debugging complex perl? Give me a razor! :)

---------

With three commands I can turn an apache install into a blaring invitation
to hack. I do agree that registering globals is bad. At the same time,
that's what the config is there for.

_a


> Hello All:
> I think the article link below is useful... depending on your php
> experience/knowledge
> it may/not be...
> But what I want to know since I haven't thoroughly perused BC's yet
> morphing codebase... How does BC cope with such potential security attacks?
> -WD
> 
> <-- snip -->
> With the recent code red activity it has gotten me thinking about any
> vulnerabilities within phpwebsite.  I ran across this article
> <http://www.securereality.com.au/studyinscarlet.txt> that details some
> common problems with php based scripts.  It makes for some really good
> reading.  There is some good supporting material that breaks down specific
> scripts.  How much has the development team looked into fixed security
> holes?
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> <-- snip -->
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> binarycloud-dev mailing list
> bin...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/binarycloud-dev
> 


--
alex black, ceo
en...@tu...

the turing studio, inc.
http://www.turingstudio.com

vox+510.666.0074
fax+510.666.0093

[binarycloud-general] cygwin

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

hi all,

I'm building a list of packages we need from cygwin, and I think it's
complete.

The download I did was 7.7MB:

Autoconf
Automake
Bash
Binutils
Clear
Cygwin (both packages)
Diff
File
Fileutils
Findutils
Grep
gZip
Inetutils
Less
Lynx
Make
Perl
Readline
Reges
Rsync
Sed
Sh-Utils
Tar
Textutils
Time
Unzip
w32API
wGet
Which

(Ronald, I've "pasted" this list into your WIN32 file.)

Note that the above is _much_ more that binarycloud actually needs, but it's
all good stuff that's nice to have around.

The _full_ cygwin download is pretty serious: Postgres, CVS, etc. No wonder
the whole shebang is 50M, I'm actually surprised it's that small :)

_alex



--
alex black, ceo
en...@tu...

the turing studio, inc.
http://www.turingstudio.com

vox+510.666.0074
fax+510.666.0093

[binarycloud-general] Re: [binarycloud-dev] Can make convert page XML definitions

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

> Only a guess as I had no intention to be online for more that a hour -
> arround 50-60MB. I don't know because the stupid setup.exe had no intention
> to show how many MB there are.
> 
> Andris Spruds

That sounds a bit extreme...

Ronald, is it really ~60mb?

_a


--
alex black, ceo
en...@tu...

the turing studio, inc.
http://www.turingstudio.com

vox+510.666.0074
fax+510.666.0093

Re: [binarycloud-general] Resources organization

[alex b. <en...@tu...>]

> Where do I put resources that are required by modules?
>
> I'm a bit courious. One possibility for each site:
>
> /resources/css
> /resources/js
> /resources/images/general/*           < used by masters, layouts
> /resources/images/binarycloud/*     < by stuff
> /resources/images/module_foo/*     < module specific
> /resources/images/module_bar/*

I like "by project" - so something like:

resources/css/binarycloud.css
resources/css/project_name.css

resources/images/project_name/arbitrary_hierarchy/foo.gif

resources/js/project_name_lib.js

etc.

One of the things on my list is to publish a "spec" on where things should
go in resources.

I think images, js, and css will end up being module specific like:
    resources/css/module_name/file.css
    resources/js/module_name/file.js
    resources/images/module_name/image.gif
    resources/images/project_name/your_images.gif

So I'd stick with module name for the moment.

_a

[binarycloud-general] Resources organization

[Andreas A. <a.a...@th...>]

Hi,

Im not quite sure how to organize the resources wihtin the bc tree. Is there
a "standard" way to go?

Where do I put resources that are required by modules?

I'm a bit courious. One possibility for each site:

/resources/css
/resources/js
/resources/images/general/*           < used by masters, layouts
/resources/images/binarycloud/*     < by stuff
/resources/images/module_foo/*     < module specific
/resources/images/module_bar/*

What do you think?

Andi

Re: [binarycloud-general] page and module output caching

[Alex B. <en...@tu...>]

> Hi Alex,
> 
>>> Hmm. What about POST parameters and sessions? So if a
>>> resultpage for sess1
>>> is diferent from one of sess2 because it depends on userdata
>>> AND post data.
>> 
>> Well, the idea being that you don't want to cache pages that are session
>> specific, or post specific. You could end up with a _huge_ set of cache
>> files :)
> 
> Hmm, that's right. But what is with the areas of a sessioned page that are
> "static" navigation etc. that depends not on session/post data? I guess the
> per module cache applies here? Module "navigation_bar" (static, cached),
> module "signup_process" (dynamic, !cached) ? Am I right?

Exactly: for things like that, you'd cache the module output, not the page
output. I think people will end up caching module output more than "entire"
page output - it's more useful.

>> This isn't intended for form pages, session specific stuff, etc, as the
> files are stored > in the filesystem, unencrypted.
> Indeed,  would be a HUGE security risk.
> 
> Ok, I got it now :-)
> 
>> This cache has nothing to do with zend's caching - it only caches page
>> output - so if you have cached bc php, you'll see even _more_ of a
>> performance jump. Zend cache does the actual bytecode... Actually
>> - andi, do
>> you have performance numbers for r2 on a zend cache-enabled box?
>> I'd love to
>> see 'em :)
> There is a benchmark utility shipped with Zcache. I just run the standard
> page of current bc cvs through it. And yeees, I am very surprised.
> My average performance boost of my projects (with or without db access) is
> around 200%, for bc...
>
> HARR HARR HARR MORE POWER! (see second mail)

heheheheh

cool!

>> So there isn't really anything like "turn it off" because it isn't "on"
>> unless you specifically request it :)
> Very fine :-)
> 
> So for a big sime on your face, read the post about "Zend Cache".

k :)

_a



--
alex black, ceo
en...@tu...

the turing studio, inc.
http://www.turingstudio.com

vox+510.666.0074
fax+510.666.0093

RE: [binarycloud-general] page and module output caching

[Andreas A. <a.a...@th...>]

Hi Alex,

> > Hmm. What about POST parameters and sessions? So if a
>> resultpage for sess1
> > is diferent from one of sess2 because it depends on userdata
>> AND post data.
>
> Well, the idea being that you don't want to cache pages that are session
> specific, or post specific. You could end up with a _huge_ set of cache
> files :)

Hmm, that's right. But what is with the areas of a sessioned page that are
"static" navigation etc. that depends not on session/post data? I guess the
per module cache applies here? Module "navigation_bar" (static, cached),
module "signup_process" (dynamic, !cached) ? Am I right?

> This isn't intended for form pages, session specific stuff, etc, as the
files are stored > in the filesystem, unencrypted.
Indeed,  would be a HUGE security risk.

Ok, I got it now :-)

> This cache has nothing to do with zend's caching - it only caches page
> output - so if you have cached bc php, you'll see even _more_ of a
> performance jump. Zend cache does the actual bytecode... Actually
> - andi, do
> you have performance numbers for r2 on a zend cache-enabled box?
> I'd love to
> see 'em :)
There is a benchmark utility shipped with Zcache. I just run the standard
page of current bc cvs through it. And yeees, I am very surprised.
My average performance boost of my projects (with or without db access) is
around 200%, for bc...

HARR HARR HARR MORE POWER! (see second mail)

> So there isn't really anything like "turn it off" because it isn't "on"
> unless you specifically request it :)
Very fine :-)


So for a big sime on your face, read the post about "Zend Cache".

andi