audacity-quality
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-24 12:58:23
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With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's right, but I'm not sure what should happen. This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 Steve |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-24 14:43:57
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On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple > label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple > exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's > right, but I'm not sure what should happen. > > This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 > I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the examples in the manual show one label track being used for export multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to do export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? -- Bill |
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-24 15:18:21
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It's also the one and only instance that I have heard of, but I think the "expected behaviour" is probably open to interpretation (which is why I was asking). I've added a line to the manual saying that only the first Label track is used. http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#Split_files_based_on: Steve On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> wrote: > > On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple >> label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple >> exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's >> right, but I'm not sure what should happen. >> >> This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: >> http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 >> > > I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the > examples in the manual show one label track being used for export > multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. > > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples > > This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to do > export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add > code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? > > -- Bill |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-24 16:25:16
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| From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:43:50 -0400 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > > > With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple > > label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple > > exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's > > right, but I'm not sure what should happen. > > > > This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: > > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 > > I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the > examples in the manual show one label track being used for export > multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. > > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples Thanks, Steve for your modification further up the page: http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#split "Labels: ...Only labels in the first label track are used." I note below that: "The label track must contain: Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to make into a separate file, '''or''' Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into a separate file." Does anyone have evidence that you can't combine point and region labels in one label track? I just tried it in separate projects on generated audio, an imported MP3 and imported aliased WAV and it worked fine. I included a point label abutting a region label. If it doesn't work, I think it should be a bug. > This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to do > export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add > code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first label track, but I don't think Audacity could guess what the user meant to happen. All I think Audacity could sensibly do would be to go through each label track in turn and treat it as if it was the first label track. That should educate the user about what they did wrong if it gives them the wrong result. Is it worth a P5? Gale |
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From: Peter Sampson <petersampson48@ya...> - 2010-09-24 16:31:34
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snip <<<I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first label track, >>> I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. Peter. Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 ________________________________ From: Gale Andrews <gale@...> To: audacity-quality <audacity-quality@...> Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 5:25:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:43:50 -0400 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > > > With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple > > label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple > > exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's > > right, but I'm not sure what should happen. > > > > This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: > > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 > > I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the > examples in the manual show one label track being used for export > multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. > > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples Thanks, Steve for your modification further up the page: http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#split "Labels: ...Only labels in the first label track are used." I note below that: "The label track must contain: Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to make into a separate file, '''or''' Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into a separate file." Does anyone have evidence that you can't combine point and region labels in one label track? I just tried it in separate projects on generated audio, an imported MP3 and imported aliased WAV and it worked fine. I included a point label abutting a region label. If it doesn't work, I think it should be a bug. > This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to do > export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add > code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first label track, but I don't think Audacity could guess what the user meant to happen. All I think Audacity could sensibly do would be to go through each label track in turn and treat it as if it was the first label track. That should educate the user about what they did wrong if it gives them the wrong result. Is it worth a P5? Gale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Audacity-quality mailing list Audacity-quality@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-24 16:43:45
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On 24-Sep-10, at 12:31 PM, Peter Sampson wrote: > snip > <<<I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first > label track, >>> > > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" > label track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to > have a second (essentially non-functional label track) which enables > me to make marker notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without > cluttering the proper label track. Agreed. Keep the current behaviour and improve the documentation. -- Bill > > Peter. > > > Peter Sampson > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 > > > From: Gale Andrews <gale@...> > To: audacity-quality <audacity-quality@...> > Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 5:25:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one > label track > > > | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:43:50 -0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one > label track > > On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > > > > > With the default settings, if there is one audio track and > multiple > > > label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple > > > exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's > > > right, but I'm not sure what should happen. > > > > > > This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: > > > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 > > > > I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the > > examples in the manual show one label track being used for export > > multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. > > > > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples > > Thanks, Steve for your modification further up the page: > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#split > > "Labels: ...Only labels in the first label track are used." > > I note below that: > > "The label track must contain: > Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want > to make into a separate file, '''or''' > Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make > into a separate file." > > Does anyone have evidence that you can't combine point and region > labels > in one label track? I just tried it in separate projects on > generated audio, > an imported MP3 and imported aliased WAV and it worked fine. I > included > a point label abutting a region label. If it doesn't work, I think > it should be > a bug. > > > > This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to > do > > export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add > > code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? > > I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first > label track, > but I don't think Audacity could guess what the user meant to happen. > All I think Audacity could sensibly do would be to go through each > label > track in turn and treat it as if it was the first label track. That > should > educate the user about what they did wrong if it gives them the wrong > result. Is it worth a P5? > > > > > > Gale > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Audacity-quality@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev_______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Audacity-quality@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-24 16:42:54
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On 24-Sep-10, at 12:25 PM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:43:50 -0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one > label track >> On 24-Sep-10, at 8:58 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >>> With the default settings, if there is one audio track and multiple >>> label tracks with one label in each track, then Export Multiple >>> exports the entire audio track as one file. I don't think that's >>> right, but I'm not sure what should happen. >>> >>> This issue was raised on the Audacity forum: >>> http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40427 >> >> I think it's user error and/or not reading the manual. All the >> examples in the manual show one label track being used for export >> multiple. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the text. >> >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#examples > > Thanks, Steve for your modification further up the page: > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Export_Multiple#split > > "Labels: ...Only labels in the first label track are used." > > I note below that: > > "The label track must contain: > Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want > to make into a separate file, '''or''' > Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make > into a separate file." > > Does anyone have evidence that you can't combine point and region > labels > in one label track? I just tried it in separate projects on > generated audio, > an imported MP3 and imported aliased WAV and it worked fine. I > included > a point label abutting a region label. If it doesn't work, I think > it should be > a bug. I'll try this, but for the time being take your word that it works. So would we want to change that to: "The label track may contain: Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to make into a separate file, '''or''' Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into a separate file, '''or''' A mix of point labels and region labels." In that case we'd need to add a fifth example. [I hope I still have that project around so the additional example will match!] > > >> This is the first and only case I can recall where a user tried to do >> export multiple with multiple label tracks. Do we really want to add >> code to protect that one user in a million who makes a mistake? > > I think it's a minor limitation that Audacity only uses the first > label track, > but I don't think Audacity could guess what the user meant to happen. Yes. > All I think Audacity could sensibly do would be to go through each > label > track in turn and treat it as if it was the first label track. That > should > educate the user about what they did wrong if it gives them the wrong > result. Is it worth a P5? Or Audacity could "combine" all the label tracks into one - as if all the labels were on one track. I think the current behaviour is sensible (ignoring all but the first label track). I don't think this is worth a bug report. -- Bill > |
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-24 17:38:17
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<snip> > > "The label track may contain: > Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to > make into a separate file, '''or''' > Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make > into a separate file, '''or''' > A mix of point labels and region labels." More briefly, but I'm not sure that you'll like the grammatical short-cut: "The label track must contain: One or more point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to make into a separate file, and/or Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into a separate file. <snip> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. How clever :) It'll have to stay. Steve |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-24 18:09:28
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On 24-Sep-10, at 1:38 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > <snip> >> >> "The label track may contain: >> Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to >> make into a separate file, '''or''' >> Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make >> into a separate file, '''or''' >> A mix of point labels and region labels." > > More briefly, but I'm not sure that you'll like the grammatical > short-cut: > > "The label track must contain: > One or more point labels marking the start of each section of audio > you want to make into a separate file, > and/or > Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into > a separate file. I'm agnostic :) But if we really want to be picky, the option to "include audio before first label" means that neither of the above is strictly accurate. I've done a test (somewhat less rigourous than Gale's - I just tried a simple LP capture) and the rule seems to be that if a region label follows a point label, the start of the region label is treated like a point label for the purposes of export multiple - which is entirely logical and predictable IMO. Similarly if a point label follows a region label, and the region label does not have a point label coincident with it's end, the audio between the end of the region label and the following point label will be omitted. Again, logical and predictable - the end of a region label is not equivalent to a point label for the purposes of determining the start of an exported segment, and is consistent with the "all region labels with missing songs" example. I don't think I can squeeze all three cases (point > region, region > point, region-with-abutting-point > point/region) into my example screen without explicitly showing the "Fifth Song", which would make the screenshot look different from the others. Is this important? Can we safely omit the third case? BTW I found the project I used for the screenshots. If I open it in 1.3.10 I can reproduce the look of the existing examples. Finally, I would want to say that mixing point and region labels may be possible but is not recommended simply because it can lead to confusion - it is simpler to stick to one or the other. Perhaps this could be in a note div. I never in my wildest dreams considered mixing the two styles when doing export multiple. -- Bill |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-25 01:38:03
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| From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track Peter wrote: > > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. > > How clever :) > It'll have to stay. Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just as it disables export of an audio track. There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or down and Export Multiple twice. Gale |
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-25 02:09:34
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It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you cannot export multiple files." Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, Steve On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > Peter wrote: >> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. >> >> How clever :) >> It'll have to stay. > > Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks > for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just > as it disables export of an audio track. > > There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different > overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one > ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or > down and Export Multiple twice. > > > > Gale > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Audacity-quality@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Martyn Shaw <martynshaw99@gm...> - 2010-09-27 23:32:02
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I suggest you file a bug on that one, P4 or P5. Martyn On 19:59, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. > > With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is > empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: > > "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you > cannot export multiple files." > > Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, > > Steve > > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews<gale@...> wrote: >> >> | From Steve the Fiddle<stevethefiddle@...> >> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> Peter wrote: >>>> I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label >>>> track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second >>>> (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker >>>> notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. >>> >>> How clever :) >>> It'll have to stay. >> >> Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks >> for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just >> as it disables export of an audio track. >> >> There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different >> overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one >> ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or >> down and Export Multiple twice. >> >> >> >> Gale >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Audacity-quality@... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> > > |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-28 00:28:44
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| From Martyn Shaw <martynshaw99@...> | Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:31:52 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > I suggest you file a bug on that one, P4 or P5. > > Martyn > > On 19:59, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > > It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. > > > > With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is > > empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: > > > > "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you > > cannot export multiple files." > > > > Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, > > > > Steve Martyn, I presume you mean file an enhancement issue to allow Export Multiple to use multiple label tracks in some way to be decided (possibly with a feature to mute/disable label tracks for purposes of Export Multiple)? That seems to be the consensus so far, and to handle the current problem with a rewording of the Export Multiple error dialogue (partly done already). @ Steve: I would envisage any mute/disable of label tracks would not be a way to remove them from the group, only from Export Multiple. You may well want all the label tracks in the group, but just to exclude one of the label tracks from Export Multiple. So any means to take label (or audio) tracks out of groups would be separate. Gale > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews<gale@...> wrote: > >> > >> | From Steve the Fiddle<stevethefiddle@...> > >> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 > >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > >> Peter wrote: > >>>> I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > >>>> track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > >>>> (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > >>>> notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. > >>> > >>> How clever :) > >>> It'll have to stay. > >> > >> Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks > >> for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just > >> as it disables export of an audio track. > >> > >> There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different > >> overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one > >> ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or > >> down and Export Multiple twice. > >> > >> > >> > >> Gale |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-25 07:36:00
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| From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:09:27 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. > > With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is > empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: > > "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you > cannot export multiple files." > > Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, I guess some people think it would be better to grey out the menu when Export Multiple is unavailable, though last time we discussed that the consensus was the warning was useful for novice users. And if Audacity went through each label track in turn to export them, that would fix it too if you could choose to not export from a particular label track. Anyway rather than have another long discussion I changed it for now to: "If you have more than one Audio Track, you can export each track as a separate file. If you have a Label Track directly underneath an Audio Track, you can export a new file for each label in that track. This Project does not meet the above criteria for exporting multiple files." Gale > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > > > > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > > Peter wrote: > >> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. > >> > >> How clever :) > >> It'll have to stay. > > > > Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks > > for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just > > as it disables export of an audio track. > > > > There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different > > overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one > > ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or > > down and Export Multiple twice. > > > > > > > > Gale |
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-25 09:24:10
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Unfortunately that's not quite right either. Export Multiple will work with a valid label track at the top. I'm struggling to find an accurate, succinct message (other than "Unable to Export Multiple rtfm") Maybe something like "If the first label track contains labels" (which implies that there must be a "first label track")? Steve On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:09:27 +0100 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. >> >> With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is >> empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: >> >> "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you >> cannot export multiple files." >> >> Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, > > I guess some people think it would be better to grey out the menu when > Export Multiple is unavailable, though last time we discussed that the > consensus was the warning was useful for novice users. And if Audacity > went through each label track in turn to export them, that would fix it > too if you could choose to not export from a particular label track. > > Anyway rather than have another long discussion I changed it for now > to: > > "If you have more than one Audio Track, you can export each track as a > separate file. If you have a Label Track directly underneath an Audio > Track, you can export a new file for each label in that track. > > This Project does not meet the above criteria for exporting multiple > files." > > > > > Gale > > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: >> > >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> >> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> > Peter wrote: >> >> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label >> >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second >> >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker >> >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. >> >> >> >> How clever :) >> >> It'll have to stay. >> > >> > Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks >> > for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just >> > as it disables export of an audio track. >> > >> > There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different >> > overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one >> > ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or >> > down and Export Multiple twice. >> > >> > >> > >> > Gale |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-25 16:59:04
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| From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:24:04 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > Unfortunately that's not quite right either. Export Multiple will work > with a valid label track at the top. Thanks, Steve. You're right. "Directly underneath" was much clearer though for the most common cases... This makes me think even more that we should export multiple all the label tracks in turn (with possible consideration given to ignoring label tracks with no audio track above them). Consider: label track1 audio track label track2 You would intuitively think (if only one label track were considered) that label track 2 would export. Then consider: label track1 audio track label track2 audio track label track3 The last thing I would expect there is that label track 1 on its own would export. > I'm struggling to find an accurate, succinct message (other than > "Unable to Export Multiple rtfm") I think we may as well grey the menu as that. If we had context-sensitive help so they could click a button to read the blurb, it would be OK. > Maybe something like "If the first label track contains labels" (which > implies that there must be a "first label track")? Neat, but somehow seems a bit short-circuited vis-a-vis the preceding sentence (as if there should be a label track without user doing anything)? And if you have a complex set up with multiple audio and label tracks, I think "first" could get ambiguous (first one you added)? So although it's an extra sentence, I don't see much alternative to something like: "If you have a Label Track you can export a separate file for each label in that track. You can have more than one Label Track, but files will only be exported for the uppermost label track." This also gives user a clue that they can add another label track just for annotation. Or (less of a clue) but maybe better: "If you have a Label Track you can export a separate file for each label in that track. Files will only be exported for the uppermost Label Track." Gale > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > > > > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > > | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:09:27 +0100 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > >> It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. > >> > >> With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is > >> empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: > >> > >> "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you > >> cannot export multiple files." > >> > >> Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, > > > > I guess some people think it would be better to grey out the menu when > > Export Multiple is unavailable, though last time we discussed that the > > consensus was the warning was useful for novice users. And if Audacity > > went through each label track in turn to export them, that would fix it > > too if you could choose to not export from a particular label track. > > > > Anyway rather than have another long discussion I changed it for now > > to: > > > > "If you have more than one Audio Track, you can export each track as a > > separate file. If you have a Label Track directly underneath an Audio > > Track, you can export a new file for each label in that track. > > > > This Project does not meet the above criteria for exporting multiple > > files." > > > > > > > > > > Gale > > > > > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > >> > > >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > >> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 > >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > >> > Peter wrote: > >> >> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > >> >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > >> >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > >> >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. > >> >> > >> >> How clever :) > >> >> It'll have to stay. > >> > > >> > Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks > >> > for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just > >> > as it disables export of an audio track. > >> > > >> > There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different > >> > overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one > >> > ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or > >> > down and Export Multiple twice. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gale |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-26 15:46:06
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Proposed example of export multiple with mixed labels now available for your consideration: http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Talk:Export_Multiple -- Bill |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-26 19:05:44
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| From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> | Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:45:59 -0400 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > Proposed example of export multiple with mixed labels now available > for your consideration: > > http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Talk:Export_Multiple Thanks, Bill. I made a few comments there. Could I suggest it might be better to resurrect the [Audacity-manual] pseudo mailing list for discussion of details of documenting features. I assume the -devels subscribed here largely don't need to read this. Gale |
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From: Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gm...> - 2010-09-26 16:05:43
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On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: > > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> > | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:24:04 +0100 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> Unfortunately that's not quite right either. Export Multiple will work >> with a valid label track at the top. > > Thanks, Steve. You're right. "Directly underneath" was much clearer > though for the most common cases... > > This makes me think even more that we should export multiple all the > label tracks in turn (with possible consideration given to ignoring label > tracks with no audio track above them). Consider: > > label track1 > audio track > label track2 > > You would intuitively think (if only one label track were considered) > that label track 2 would export. > > Then consider: > > label track1 > audio track > label track2 > audio track > label track3 > > The last thing I would expect there is that label track 1 on its own would > export. > > >> I'm struggling to find an accurate, succinct message (other than >> "Unable to Export Multiple rtfm") > > I think we may as well grey the menu as that. If we had context-sensitive > help so they could click a button to read the blurb, it would be OK. > > >> Maybe something like "If the first label track contains labels" (which >> implies that there must be a "first label track")? > > Neat, but somehow seems a bit short-circuited vis-a-vis the preceding > sentence (as if there should be a label track without user doing anything)? > And if you have a complex set up with multiple audio and label tracks, > I think "first" could get ambiguous (first one you added)? > > So although it's an extra sentence, I don't see much alternative to > something like: > > "If you have a Label Track you can export a separate file for each label > in that track. You can have more than one Label Track, but files will > only be exported for the uppermost label track." > > This also gives user a clue that they can add another label track just > for annotation. > > Or (less of a clue) but maybe better: > > "If you have a Label Track you can export a separate file for each label > in that track. Files will only be exported for the uppermost Label Track." > My message preference is for the longer (but imho more descriptive) first option: "If you have a Label Track you can export a separate file for each label in that track. You can have more than one Label Track, but files will only be exported for the uppermost label track." I like the idea of "mute/disable" label tracks, but would this also affect sync-lock? Steve > > Gale > > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: >> > >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> >> > | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:09:27 +0100 >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> >> It's amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you start looking. >> >> >> >> With one audio track and 2 label tracks, but the first label track is >> >> empty - attempt to Export Multiple and the error message says: >> >> >> >> "This project does not have multiple tracks or a Label Track, so you >> >> cannot export multiple files." >> >> >> >> Which could be really confusing as the project clearly does have a label track, >> > >> > I guess some people think it would be better to grey out the menu when >> > Export Multiple is unavailable, though last time we discussed that the >> > consensus was the warning was useful for novice users. And if Audacity >> > went through each label track in turn to export them, that would fix it >> > too if you could choose to not export from a particular label track. >> > >> > Anyway rather than have another long discussion I changed it for now >> > to: >> > >> > "If you have more than one Audio Track, you can export each track as a >> > separate file. If you have a Label Track directly underneath an Audio >> > Track, you can export a new file for each label in that track. >> > >> > This Project does not meet the above criteria for exporting multiple >> > files." >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gale >> > >> > >> >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> >> >> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 >> >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track >> >> > Peter wrote: >> >> >> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label >> >> >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second >> >> >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker >> >> >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. >> >> >> >> >> >> How clever :) >> >> >> It'll have to stay. >> >> > >> >> > Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks >> >> > for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just >> >> > as it disables export of an audio track. >> >> > >> >> > There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different >> >> > overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one >> >> > ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or >> >> > down and Export Multiple twice. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Gale |
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From: Peter Sampson <petersampson48@ya...> - 2010-09-25 16:17:04
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>> > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label >> > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second >> > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker >> > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. >> >> How clever :) >> It'll have to stay. > >Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks >for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just >as it disables export of an audio track. I like the idea of a "Mute" button for a label track - although technically I suppose it doesn't really make sense as only sound can reall be muted, so maybe we need some different wording (enable/disable or somesuch ?). And as I explained to Steve previously, I was only being half clever <sighs>. Prior to this thread emerging I always used to delete my secondary annotation label track prior to doing the Export Multiple. Now I realize from this thread that I don't have to bother to do that ... Peter Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 ________________________________ From: Gale Andrews <gale@...> To: audacity-quality <audacity-quality@...> Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 2:38:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:38:10 +0100 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track Peter wrote: > > I use this as a useful feature - it enables me to have a "proper" label > > track as the first label track for the song breaks - and to have a second > > (essentially non-functional label track) which enables me to make marker > > notes re clicks, noise, fuzz etc. without cluttering the proper label track. > > How clever :) > It'll have to stay. Well, not necessarily, if we gave users a way to disable the extra label tracks for export, for example a "Mute" button which would disable it for export just as it disables export of an audio track. There are use cases for multiple label tracks e.g. easily exporting different overlapping sections of the same track with different labels. I know one ornithologist who does just that and currently has to move the labels up or down and Export Multiple twice. Gale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Audacity-quality mailing list Audacity-quality@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-25 02:34:58
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| From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:09:21 -0400 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > On 24-Sep-10, at 1:38 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > > > <snip> > >> > >> "The label track may contain: > >> Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want to > >> make into a separate file, '''or''' > >> Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make > >> into a separate file, '''or''' > >> A mix of point labels and region labels." > > > > More briefly, but I'm not sure that you'll like the grammatical > > short-cut: > > > > "The label track must contain: > > One or more point labels marking the start of each section of audio > > you want to make into a separate file, > > and/or > > Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into > > a separate file. > > I'm agnostic :) But if we really want to be picky, the option to > "include audio before first label" means that neither of the above is > strictly accurate. Here's my try: The label track may contain point labels, region labels or both. * Point labels mark the start of each section of audio you want to make into a separate file * Region labels span each section of audio you want to make into a separate file Bit of repetition, but maybe gets the difference between the label types across better. "Include audio before first label" has to be explicitly enabled, so I think it's reasonable to not mention a qualification about it here. > I've done a test (somewhat less rigourous than Gale's - I just tried a > simple LP capture) and the rule seems to be that if a region label > follows a point label, the start of the region label is treated like a > point label for the purposes of export multiple - which is entirely > logical and predictable IMO... On Windows, if I have 30s track, point label at 5s, region label from 10s -15s, I get exported files a) 5s -10s, b) 10s - 15s (not 10s to end). If you get 10s to end, I'd think that's wrong. > I don't think I can squeeze all three cases (point > region, region > > point, region-with-abutting-point > point/region) into my example > screen without explicitly showing the "Fifth Song", which would make > the screenshot look different from the others. Is this important? Can > we safely omit the third case? Perhaps you could illustrate exporting several part(s) of one or more songs instead of all of them e.g. exclude the intro or outro to a song? Gale > Finally, I would want to say that mixing point and region labels may > be possible but is not recommended simply because it can lead to > confusion - it is simpler to stick to one or the other. Perhaps this > could be in a note div. |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-25 04:10:52
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On 24-Sep-10, at 10:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> > [snip] >> I don't think I can squeeze all three cases (point > region, region > >> point, region-with-abutting-point > point/region) into my example >> screen without explicitly showing the "Fifth Song", which would make >> the screenshot look different from the others. Is this important? Can >> we safely omit the third case? > > Perhaps you could illustrate exporting several part(s) of one or more > songs instead of all of them e.g. exclude the intro or outro to a > song? Never mind. I should re-do all those images since they don't show the improved handles on the point labels. -- Bill |
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From: Bill Wharrie <billwh@go...> - 2010-09-25 04:26:10
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On 24-Sep-10, at 10:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:09:21 -0400 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one > label track >> On 24-Sep-10, at 1:38 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >>> <snip> >>>> >>>> "The label track may contain: >>>> Point labels marking the start of each section of audio you want >>>> to >>>> make into a separate file, '''or''' >>>> Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make >>>> into a separate file, '''or''' >>>> A mix of point labels and region labels." >>> >>> More briefly, but I'm not sure that you'll like the grammatical >>> short-cut: >>> >>> "The label track must contain: >>> One or more point labels marking the start of each section of audio >>> you want to make into a separate file, >>> and/or >>> Region labels spanning each section of audio you want to make into >>> a separate file. >> >> I'm agnostic :) But if we really want to be picky, the option to >> "include audio before first label" means that neither of the above is >> strictly accurate. > > Here's my try: > > The label track may contain point labels, region labels or both. > > * Point labels mark the start of each section of audio you want to > make into a separate file > * Region labels span each section of audio you want to make > into a separate file > > Bit of repetition, but maybe gets the difference between the label > types across better. > > "Include audio before first label" has to be explicitly enabled, so I > think it's reasonable to not mention a qualification about it here. I like it. > > >> I've done a test (somewhat less rigourous than Gale's - I just >> tried a >> simple LP capture) and the rule seems to be that if a region label >> follows a point label, the start of the region label is treated >> like a >> point label for the purposes of export multiple - which is entirely >> logical and predictable IMO... > > On Windows, if I have 30s track, point label at 5s, region label from > 10s -15s, I get exported files a) 5s -10s, b) 10s - 15s (not 10s to > end). If you get 10s to end, I'd think that's wrong. Yes, I get the correct result. I should have been more rigourous in my description. If a region label follows a point label, the start of the region label is equivalent to a point label for the purpose of defining the region of audio that will be exported "by" the preceding point label. [snip] >> Finally, I would want to say that mixing point and region labels may >> be possible but is not recommended simply because it can lead to >> confusion - it is simpler to stick to one or the other. Perhaps this >> could be in a note div. > Any comments on the note div? Is it too "editorial"? -- Bill |
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From: Gale Andrews <gale@au...> - 2010-09-25 05:35:25
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| From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> | Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:26:02 -0400 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one label track > On 24-Sep-10, at 10:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Bill Wharrie <billwh@...> > > | Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:09:21 -0400 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Export Multiple with more than one > > | label track > >> Finally, I would want to say that mixing point and region labels may > >> be possible but is not recommended simply because it can lead to > >> confusion - it is simpler to stick to one or the other. Perhaps this > >> could be in a note div. > > > > Any comments on the note div? Is it too "editorial"? IMO, yes. If you need to stress that not mixing the types is simpler, maybe your bullet showing the mixed types could say that this is "advanced" or similar (though I don't think it really is very advanced). Gale |