Game, Hands, Tricks, Rounds, Turn

2002-10-29
2002-11-01
  • Stefano Bagnara

    Stefano Bagnara - 2002-10-29

    I'd like to know your point about these entities named in card rules:

    - hand/s
    - trick/s
    - round/s
    - turn/s

    Would it be correct to say that:

    - game: the "atomic" view of a game (many games are needed for a tournament..)
    - hand: a procedure that usually start with the dealing (some game need only 1 deal for game, other needs a specific number of hands, other needs hands until a given "goal" has been reached)
    - trick: a trick begin with a trick leader that does something (some game could allow only 1 round to be done in each trick, other could continue until a given condition is reached)
    - round: a round is a sequence of turn where each player exactly played a turn
    - turn: the minimal temporal unit... turn is when you "act" : some game need one action per turn, other can allow alternative actions, other can need a sequence of actions or a complex workflow.

    about tournaments: a tournament is composed by a number of game played by different players, if 2 players plays N consecutive game and the first player that wins more than X game is the "winner" or the one that wins more games in a given number of games is the winner.. how do you call it? a "campaign" ? is there a name for this?

    PS: i've already a good card game schema and I'm now trying to schematize each game on pagat: by now i've schematized only the first 4-5 games in alphabetical order... and I see I need more specific "terms": I've seen that often Hand/Trick/Rounds change their meanings from game to game... perhaps is only a wrong use?

     
    • Stefano Bagnara

      Stefano Bagnara - 2002-10-29

      This game, for example:
      http://www.pagat.com/rummy/3-13.html
      contain 3 main stage for the game, that are played differently.

      Can we think that between Game and Hand there could be a "Stage" entity, normally being the "Main Stage"?

       
    • Stefano Bagnara

      Stefano Bagnara - 2002-11-01

      I post John's email reply to this message here, because I think is a good overview (better than mine).

      -------------------------------------------------------------------

      >I'd like to know your point about these entities named in card rules:
      >- hand/s
      >- trick/s
      >- round/s
      >- turn/s

      Unfortunately the usage of these terms in English is not quite consistent.

      >Would it be correct to say that:
      >
      >- game: the "atomic" view of a game (many games are needed for a
      >tournament..)

      Yes, that is roughly right. 'Game' is of course also used in other senses - for example when I say 'Bridge is a card game'. Also, in some card games, 'game' is a specific technical term. For example in Rubber
      Bridge, the first team that scores at least 100 points below the line wins a 'game' and the first team that wins two games wins a 'rubber'.

      >- hand: a procedure that usually start with the dealing (some game need only
      >1 deal for game, other needs a specific number of hands, other needs hands
      >until a given "goal" has been reached)

      This becomes difficult in a game like Scopa, where the cards are dealt several times. I think I would describe the whole process between the times when the pack is shuffled as a 'hand', and say that each hand consists of several 'deals'. However, I am not sure whether my usage is standard. Games of this type with several deals per hand are not very well-known in English-speaking countries.

      >- trick: a trick begin with a trick leader that does something (some game
      >could allow only 1 round to be done in each trick, other could continue
      >until a given condition is reached)

      Yes. At the end of a trick, the cards are gathered up and given to the winner of a trick. You can also speak of tricks in the category of games that I call 'climbing' - see http://www.pagat.com/climbing

      >- round: a round is a sequence of turn where each player exactly played a
      >turn

      This is a reasonable usage, but please note that in games where the turn to deal passes to the next player at the end of each hand, the term round can refer to a series of hands, one dealt by each player. That is, each player has had exactly one turn to deal.

      >- turn: the minimal temporal unit... turn is when you "act" : some game need
      >one action per turn, other can allow alternative actions, other can need a
      >sequence of actions or a complex workflow.

      Agreed.

      >about tournaments: a tournament is composed by a number of game played by
      >different players, if 2 players plays N consecutive game and the first
      >player that wins more than X game is the "winner" or the one that wins more
      >games in a given number of games is the winner.. how do you call it? a
      >"campaign" ? is there a name for this?

      You might call it a 'match' (as in tennis: the first player who wins 6 games and is 2 games ahead wins a set and the first player who wins 3 sets wins the match). Other terms, such as 'rubber' are sometimes used.
      The word 'rubber' tends to be associated with specific games, but one could extend it to be used more generally.

      A 'tournament' is a competition between a larger number of players, in which they play a series of matches against each other in various combinations, and an overall winner is determined according to the results of these matches.

      All the above definitions can probably be improved. The problem here is that the number of different concepts is probably greater than the number of words in common use to describe them.

       
      • Stefano Bagnara

        Stefano Bagnara - 2002-11-01

        Some game rule that you must shuffle only on specific triggers on previous hands (e.g: a poker in the previous hand).

        How would we name procedures in poker?

        We all agree (i think) on the "Turn" use.

        Each poker "Trick" can be composed of many "Rounds" and starts with dealing. Sometime we must shuffle too.

        So, poker is a game with a single hand composed by multiple tricks? or is it a game with multiple Hands composed by one trick?

         
      • Stefano Bagnara

        Stefano Bagnara - 2002-11-01

        would it better to speak of:
        - TrickRound and GameRound
        or
        - TurnsRound and HandsRound?

        The first 2 terms seems more appropriate to me:
        - TrickRound is a subset of the Trick and is a sequence of Turns.
        - GameRound is a subset of the Game and is a sequence of Hands.

        The round will not be used to "conduct a game" in most rule system, but it will be used to better understand game behaviour. It is simpler to say that a game has (doesn't have) MultiRound Tricks or that a game is a "single hand game", "a single handround game", "a multi hand rounds game".

        Does "single handround games" exists?: a game where each player lead an "Hand" only once.

         

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