aspinfinity-developer

RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[David S. F. <ds...@cr...>]

Hi,
=20
In my opinion the next steps is to really discuss the class subsystems
that will support the core functionality for each module.
=20
But before we get into that, I was hoping to get a handle on the
background/strengths weaknesses of the other developers working on this
project.
=20
I am an application developer who has been working full time as a
programmer for about 5 years. I live in New York City, am looking to
work on projects like this in my spare time, when my wife isn't around.
I am a Microsoft certified Application Developer (MCAD). My strengths
are in VB, VB.NET, classic asp, ASP.NET, C#, SQL, TSQL, etc   =20
=20
Anyway, I also wanted to add some preface to the proof of concept. As
Matt indicated, there are no "dancing elephants." This is proving that
page rendering can be accomplished by dynamically initiating objects
based on database settings. It's really rough, but by extending this
concept we can create a fully functionally object management system in
asp. The end result is to package one base vbscript class with asp html
like forms to create a module. We can have the framework auto wire to
the class methods based on form settings. This provides a consistent
method for extending the core functionality any which way we want.
=20
These are the kind of class subsystems that we will need to work on,
just off the top of my head.
=20
A Data Access layer.
An authentication/Security layer.
An Object Persistence Layer
A Module Rendering Object
A Page Rendering Object
A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
A Metadata Object
A Configuration Layer (For Global Variables as demonstrated in the POC)
A Debug Object (As demonstrated in the POC)
A File IO Object
A XML IO Object
A File Upload Object

I haven't fully explored these ideas, I'm just throwing them out there.
=20
Please let me know what you think.
=20
-Dave
=20
  _____ =20

From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:26 AM
To: asp...@li...
Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


Hi all,
=20
I have added the proof of concept to the releases on sourceforge.
=20
I would like to consider the PoC as a starting point to build our
framework from.  However there are a number of issues to address which I
will outline below for feedback.
=20
Theme and UI: The core will need to allow for a seperate set of files
that in some way handle the look and feel seperate from the data and
logic layers.  The technique in the early trails centered arround a
module of functions and rendering subs.  This has some limits but has
the advantage of being tested and reasonably easy to document.  However
there are other options and these include a templating system of which
there exists one for ASP under the GNU.
=20
Data Systems and Boot Strapping: In an ideal world the set up of the
system should be "upload files, naviagte to xyz.asp, follow on screen
promts." so the ideal of creating the connection to the database from a
file that the config creates is best.  This would mean that we would be
working DSN-less connection which has the advantage of slightly lower
server strain and given the nature of our object oriented design I can
see no benifit to using DSN. =20
=20
Where next: This is the key issue that we must address.  Although the
above issues will have a bering on this issue it is vital that we
address it directly at least in terms of planning and general direction.
=20
I have drafted a short list but am open to alternatives.
=20
Discussion of Proof of concept and surrounding ideas
Documentation of best practice and options for UI-Layer and the
advantages and disadvantages of each technique
Drafting of a list of requirements for the core functions (and
eventually creation thereof).  This would also include the use of the
authentication class with the core.
Development of PoC into a core system
First testing and feedback
=20
-Matt

RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[David S. F. <ds...@cr...>]

Hi,
=20
The framework should handle initiating a couple of singleton like
classes.
The Authentication Class should be one of them. It should have methods
to check for things like "IsInGroup", "IsLoggedIn", IsAdmin, etc
=20
I think we should by design attempt to split each module, or subsystem
into three or four layers.
=20
layer one - Presentation Layer (If needed) - This would be inc or asp
files that have the actual HTML
layer two - Business Logic Layer - The Actual Class File where all the
Business logic is stored
layer three - DB Abstraction Layer - This is where the Data Access is
Abstracted, ( No Actual DB Connections in this) Uses layer four
differently depending on configuration options.
layer four - Database Connectivity Layer - Where there is actually DB
Specific Code. This gives us flexibility in DB implementation.
=20
Because VB Script doesn't support Inheritance I think some classes will
have to be implemented as subclasses.
For instance we can have a low level ADO Wrapper that would be
implemented as a subclass in all data access classes.
=20
The idea is to isolate object calls into a limited set of files as
possible.
=20
What I would like to see, is a standard template/coding conventions for
building classes.
This way they could all have the same look and field, comment header,
etc.
=20
Then perhaps we should list the responsibilities of each class and agree
on them before actually implementing them
=20
-Dave=20
=20
  _____ =20

From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:12 AM
To: asp...@li...
Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


Hi
=20
I start the ball rolling on history and skills background. =20
=20
I am the managing director of an IT start-up, I have been involved with
computers on and off for my entire life but it has only been the last
four or five years that have seen the intensive study and development.
My skills centre strongly around ASP / VBscript and advanced ideas of
data-relationships for which I have a nerdish fascination.  I have also
flirted with PHP and java and therefore am not completely unaware of
them although my skills stop as soon as there are any major syntax
differences from the languages I have used before. =20
=20
Many years ago I was quite the Turbo Pascal enthusiast.
=20
I have been hacking endlessly in ASP (and some PHP) over the past years
and see no real reason to stop working in ASP just yet.  Projects have
tended to centre around information management and/or web portals.  I
have already created a basic system over the course of the last two
years but it is neither extensible nor portable.  I hope that this
project will one day replace the system I created/hacked-up.  This was a
substantial part of the final HNC year (HNC is Level 4 i.e. under grad).
=20
It seems that so far we are in a broad agreement as to where we are
going next so if you do not mind I will cover a few points of jargon
that could cause difficulty if left unaddressed.
=20
+ First we have a core (PoC)=20
+ Then we have the modular components of the core these modules seem
generally to be referred to as class subsystems but occasionally I have
found myself thing of them as core modules...
+ Then we have Modules or Applications (Apps) which are the things that
will use the core to add functionality to the individual web sites.
=20
I mention this now only so we can agree as to how to name them as
technically in a modular system most things can be called modules.
=20
I would also like to address quite quickly
=20
=20
User
- An authentication/Security layer - It seems to me that the
"Authentication class" from before the PoC would handle this well with a
little further modification.
- User data
=20
Technique
- An Object Persistence Layer
- A Data Access layer - how much this controls access to the DB and how
much this facilitates free access to the DB.  The fastest method would
be to allow direct SQL but this might not be the most secure.  Other
issues are the idea of providing a simplification of access tot he
database so that the Applications can be DB blind and not worry about
platform.  Many sections might be entirely separated from the DB using
the preset "API" to access information that ultimately does come from
the DB.
- etc - I am sure that a number of the items listed by Dave will find
there way here smartish as we start to plan.
=20
UI and display issues
- A Module Rendering Object=20
- A Page Rendering Object
- A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
=20
I feel it is important to not be so pre-occupied with technical
perfection that we lose sight of the aims of the project.  I say this
mainly to myself as it is a personal bad habit of mine.
=20
In all I feel there are three issues that need to be addressed and those
are first "Technique" and then "Users" and "Output".  I feel it would be
a shocking miss-spending of our time if we went too far in re-inventing
the wheel and I'd like to know if anyone knows of any GNU GPL/LGPL
projects that could provide a source for us to use in meeting certain
aims (I'm thinking particularly of the Rendering portion of Output).
=20
I feel that once these issues have been addressed matters of finesse can
be addressed such as XML usage, module/app installation and
uninstallation, upload management object, Smilie processor, standardised
anti-SQL-inject functions, first few apps/modules etc.
=20
One other point to consider is that the faster we arrive at visuals the
quicker we will garner support.
=20
-Matt
=20

	-----Original Message-----
	From: David San Filippo [mailto:ds...@cr...]=20
	Sent: 21 February 2005 14:12
	To: asp...@li...
	Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
=09
=09
	Hi,
	=20
	In my opinion the next steps is to really discuss the class
subsystems that will support the core functionality for each module.
	=20
	But before we get into that, I was hoping to get a handle on the
background/strengths weaknesses of the other developers working on this
project.
	=20
	I am an application developer who has been working full time as
a programmer for about 5 years. I live in New York City, am looking to
work on projects like this in my spare time, when my wife isn't around.
I am a Microsoft certified Application Developer (MCAD). My strengths
are in VB, VB.NET, classic asp, ASP.NET, C#, SQL, TSQL, etc   =20
	=20
	Anyway, I also wanted to add some preface to the proof of
concept. As Matt indicated, there are no "dancing elephants." This is
proving that page rendering can be accomplished by dynamically
initiating objects based on database settings. It's really rough, but by
extending this concept we can create a fully functionally object
management system in asp. The end result is to package one base vbscript
class with asp html like forms to create a module. We can have the
framework auto wire to the class methods based on form settings. This
provides a consistent method for extending the core functionality any
which way we want.
	=20
	These are the kind of class subsystems that we will need to work
on, just off the top of my head.
	=20
	A Data Access layer.
	An authentication/Security layer.
	An Object Persistence Layer
	A Module Rendering Object
	A Page Rendering Object
	A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
	A Metadata Object
	A Configuration Layer (For Global Variables as demonstrated in
the POC)
	A Debug Object (As demonstrated in the POC)
	A File IO Object
	A XML IO Object
	A File Upload Object
=09
	I haven't fully explored these ideas, I'm just throwing them out
there.
	=20
	Please let me know what you think.
	=20
	-Dave
	=20
  _____ =20

	From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
	Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:26 AM
	To: asp...@li...
	Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
=09
=09
	Hi all,
	=20
	I have added the proof of concept to the releases on
sourceforge.
	=20
	I would like to consider the PoC as a starting point to build
our framework from.  However there are a number of issues to address
which I will outline below for feedback.
	=20
	Theme and UI: The core will need to allow for a seperate set of
files that in some way handle the look and feel seperate from the data
and logic layers.  The technique in the early trails centered arround a
module of functions and rendering subs.  This has some limits but has
the advantage of being tested and reasonably easy to document.  However
there are other options and these include a templating system of which
there exists one for ASP under the GNU.
	=20
	Data Systems and Boot Strapping: In an ideal world the set up of
the system should be "upload files, naviagte to xyz.asp, follow on
screen promts." so the ideal of creating the connection to the database
from a file that the config creates is best.  This would mean that we
would be working DSN-less connection which has the advantage of slightly
lower server strain and given the nature of our object oriented design I
can see no benifit to using DSN. =20
	=20
	Where next: This is the key issue that we must address.
Although the above issues will have a bering on this issue it is vital
that we address it directly at least in terms of planning and general
direction.
	=20
	I have drafted a short list but am open to alternatives.
	=20
	Discussion of Proof of concept and surrounding ideas
	Documentation of best practice and options for UI-Layer and the
advantages and disadvantages of each technique
	Drafting of a list of requirements for the core functions (and
eventually creation thereof).  This would also include the use of the
authentication class with the core.
	Development of PoC into a core system
	First testing and feedback
	=20
	-Matt

RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[Adullam <Se...@ad...>]

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005

RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[David S. F. <ds...@cr...>]

Hi,
=20
I looked through the code of the project. It seems interesting and we
might be able to reuse some of the code, but I have a couple of
problems.
=20
Each page has to know and have hard coded way to much about its contents
to render.
Plus the components of the page are generated from template html/asp
like files, not objects.
There would be no easy way to customize the layout, you basically have
to put together each page from scratch.
=20
I do think the rendering object might be reusable if we were able to put
in object calls as opposed to file io operations.
And instead of passing file parameters, we can pass other parameters
that allows us to retrieve settings from a database.
=20
I'm actually pretty eager to start rolling with this project.
=20
Lets think from the perspective of an object on a page.
=20
=20
What does it need? (From a framework)

*=09
	Access to Authentication State
*=09
	Access to Debugging Methods
*=09
	The Ability to Retrieve Settings
*=09
	The Ability to Respond to Events (User Submits a Form, Clicks a
link, etc)

What does it have?

*=09
	Content

	*=09
		This could be one or more asp/html files that depend on
Authentication, Event State, Settings, etc

*=09
	Business Logic

	*=09
		This should control the flow of the application,
connecting Data to Content, Respond to Events, Retrieve Settings from
the Framework, etc
	*=09
		This should be contained within one class

*=09
	Data

	*=09
		This should simple abstract the backend data source so
that no db specific code is in the business logic layer
	*=09
		This should be contained within one class.=20

What am I missing.
=20
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
=20
-Dave


  _____ =20

From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 4:14 PM
To: asp...@li...
Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


> layer one - Presentation Layer (If needed) - This would be inc or asp
files that have the actual HTML
What is the feeling on useing this?
=20
http://asptemplate.sourceforge.net/
=20
ASP Template is an ASP/ASPX templating engine whose main concern is to
separate actual code from HTML or any other presentation layer.

ASP Template currently sports lots of features:

*	Customizable markers for template objects=20
*	Nested templates=20
*	Common cycles like "for" blocks=20
*	Variables substitution with strings whose value comes from code
or from external files (includes)=20
*	Support for RegExp based substitution and home-made substitution
(for old IIS servers with scripting support prior to 5.5)

=20

	-----Original Message-----
	From: David San Filippo [mailto:ds...@cr...]=20
	Sent: 24 February 2005 16:34
	To: asp...@li...
	Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
=09
=09
	Hi,
	=20
	The framework should handle initiating a couple of singleton
like classes.
	The Authentication Class should be one of them. It should have
methods to check for things like "IsInGroup", "IsLoggedIn", IsAdmin, etc
	=20
	I think we should by design attempt to split each module, or
subsystem into three or four layers.
	=20
	layer one - Presentation Layer (If needed) - This would be inc
or asp files that have the actual HTML
	layer two - Business Logic Layer - The Actual Class File where
all the Business logic is stored
	layer three - DB Abstraction Layer - This is where the Data
Access is Abstracted, ( No Actual DB Connections in this) Uses layer
four differently depending on configuration options.
	layer four - Database Connectivity Layer - Where there is
actually DB Specific Code. This gives us flexibility in DB
implementation.
	=20
	Because VB Script doesn't support Inheritance I think some
classes will have to be implemented as subclasses.
	For instance we can have a low level ADO Wrapper that would be
implemented as a subclass in all data access classes.
	=20
	The idea is to isolate object calls into a limited set of files
as possible.
	=20
	What I would like to see, is a standard template/coding
conventions for building classes.
	This way they could all have the same look and field, comment
header, etc.
	=20
	Then perhaps we should list the responsibilities of each class
and agree on them before actually implementing them
	=20
	-Dave=20
	=20
  _____ =20

	From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
	Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:12 AM
	To: asp...@li...
	Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
=09
=09
	Hi
	=20
	I start the ball rolling on history and skills background. =20
	=20
	I am the managing director of an IT start-up, I have been
involved with computers on and off for my entire life but it has only
been the last four or five years that have seen the intensive study and
development.  My skills centre strongly around ASP / VBscript and
advanced ideas of data-relationships for which I have a nerdish
fascination.  I have also flirted with PHP and java and therefore am not
completely unaware of them although my skills stop as soon as there are
any major syntax differences from the languages I have used before. =20
	=20
	Many years ago I was quite the Turbo Pascal enthusiast.
	=20
	I have been hacking endlessly in ASP (and some PHP) over the
past years and see no real reason to stop working in ASP just yet.
Projects have tended to centre around information management and/or web
portals.  I have already created a basic system over the course of the
last two years but it is neither extensible nor portable.  I hope that
this project will one day replace the system I created/hacked-up.  This
was a substantial part of the final HNC year (HNC is Level 4 i.e. under
grad).
	=20
	It seems that so far we are in a broad agreement as to where we
are going next so if you do not mind I will cover a few points of jargon
that could cause difficulty if left unaddressed.
	=20
	+ First we have a core (PoC)=20
	+ Then we have the modular components of the core these modules
seem generally to be referred to as class subsystems but occasionally I
have found myself thing of them as core modules...
	+ Then we have Modules or Applications (Apps) which are the
things that will use the core to add functionality to the individual web
sites.
	=20
	I mention this now only so we can agree as to how to name them
as technically in a modular system most things can be called modules.
	=20
	I would also like to address quite quickly
	=20
=09
	=20
	User
	- An authentication/Security layer - It seems to me that the
"Authentication class" from before the PoC would handle this well with a
little further modification.
	- User data
	=20
	Technique
	- An Object Persistence Layer
	- A Data Access layer - how much this controls access to the DB
and how much this facilitates free access to the DB.  The fastest method
would be to allow direct SQL but this might not be the most secure.
Other issues are the idea of providing a simplification of access tot he
database so that the Applications can be DB blind and not worry about
platform.  Many sections might be entirely separated from the DB using
the preset "API" to access information that ultimately does come from
the DB.
	- etc - I am sure that a number of the items listed by Dave will
find there way here smartish as we start to plan.
	=20
	UI and display issues
	- A Module Rendering Object=20
	- A Page Rendering Object
	- A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
	=20
	I feel it is important to not be so pre-occupied with technical
perfection that we lose sight of the aims of the project.  I say this
mainly to myself as it is a personal bad habit of mine.
	=20
	In all I feel there are three issues that need to be addressed
and those are first "Technique" and then "Users" and "Output".  I feel
it would be a shocking miss-spending of our time if we went too far in
re-inventing the wheel and I'd like to know if anyone knows of any GNU
GPL/LGPL projects that could provide a source for us to use in meeting
certain aims (I'm thinking particularly of the Rendering portion of
Output).
	=20
	I feel that once these issues have been addressed matters of
finesse can be addressed such as XML usage, module/app installation and
uninstallation, upload management object, Smilie processor, standardised
anti-SQL-inject functions, first few apps/modules etc.
	=20
	One other point to consider is that the faster we arrive at
visuals the quicker we will garner support.
	=20
	-Matt
	=20

		-----Original Message-----
		From: David San Filippo [mailto:ds...@cr...]=20
		Sent: 21 February 2005 14:12
		To: asp...@li...
		Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
	=09
	=09
		Hi,
		=20
		In my opinion the next steps is to really discuss the
class subsystems that will support the core functionality for each
module.
		=20
		But before we get into that, I was hoping to get a
handle on the background/strengths weaknesses of the other developers
working on this project.
		=20
		I am an application developer who has been working full
time as a programmer for about 5 years. I live in New York City, am
looking to work on projects like this in my spare time, when my wife
isn't around. I am a Microsoft certified Application Developer (MCAD).
My strengths are in VB, VB.NET, classic asp, ASP.NET, C#, SQL, TSQL, etc

		=20
		Anyway, I also wanted to add some preface to the proof
of concept. As Matt indicated, there are no "dancing elephants." This is
proving that page rendering can be accomplished by dynamically
initiating objects based on database settings. It's really rough, but by
extending this concept we can create a fully functionally object
management system in asp. The end result is to package one base vbscript
class with asp html like forms to create a module. We can have the
framework auto wire to the class methods based on form settings. This
provides a consistent method for extending the core functionality any
which way we want.
		=20
		These are the kind of class subsystems that we will need
to work on, just off the top of my head.
		=20
		A Data Access layer.
		An authentication/Security layer.
		An Object Persistence Layer
		A Module Rendering Object
		A Page Rendering Object
		A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
		A Metadata Object
		A Configuration Layer (For Global Variables as
demonstrated in the POC)
		A Debug Object (As demonstrated in the POC)
		A File IO Object
		A XML IO Object
		A File Upload Object
	=09
		I haven't fully explored these ideas, I'm just throwing
them out there.
		=20
		Please let me know what you think.
		=20
		-Dave
		=20
  _____ =20

		From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
		Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:26 AM
		To: asp...@li...
		Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)
	=09
	=09
		Hi all,
		=20
		I have added the proof of concept to the releases on
sourceforge.
		=20
		I would like to consider the PoC as a starting point to
build our framework from.  However there are a number of issues to
address which I will outline below for feedback.
		=20
		Theme and UI: The core will need to allow for a seperate
set of files that in some way handle the look and feel seperate from the
data and logic layers.  The technique in the early trails centered
arround a module of functions and rendering subs.  This has some limits
but has the advantage of being tested and reasonably easy to document.
However there are other options and these include a templating system of
which there exists one for ASP under the GNU.
		=20
		Data Systems and Boot Strapping: In an ideal world the
set up of the system should be "upload files, naviagte to xyz.asp,
follow on screen promts." so the ideal of creating the connection to the
database from a file that the config creates is best.  This would mean
that we would be working DSN-less connection which has the advantage of
slightly lower server strain and given the nature of our object oriented
design I can see no benifit to using DSN. =20
		=20
		Where next: This is the key issue that we must address.
Although the above issues will have a bering on this issue it is vital
that we address it directly at least in terms of planning and general
direction.
		=20
		I have drafted a short list but am open to alternatives.
		=20
		Discussion of Proof of concept and surrounding ideas
		Documentation of best practice and options for UI-Layer
and the advantages and disadvantages of each technique
		Drafting of a list of requirements for the core
functions (and eventually creation thereof).  This would also include
the use of the authentication class with the core.
		Development of PoC into a core system
		First testing and feedback
		=20
		-Matt


	--
	No virus found in this incoming message.
	Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
	Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date:
22/02/2005
=09


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005

RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[David S. F. <ds...@cr...>]

Good Article. I didn't know vbscript classes supported properties
(http://juicystudio.com/tutorial/asp/oaccess.asp)

I actually want to create a simple module so you can see how I think
things should be put together, and what the framework needs to be able
to do.

I was thinking a "List of Links" Module.=20

It would have several modes
View Mode which retrieves a list from a db and lists them.=20
When granted Admin rights to the module, this mode would have edit links
next to each link.
Add Mode would be the interface for Adding Links.
Edit Mode would have the interface for Editing/Deleting Links.

Very Simple and show display the elegance of our approach. We will also
start to see the things that will be the responsibility of the
framework, and what will be left to the module in terms of
responsibilities.

-Ill let you know how it goes.

-Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Matt
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:28 PM
To: ASP INFINITY MAILER
Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

While searching through the great and mighty WWW for an example of OOD
for any members not total familiar with the idea I came across two
rather yummy articles.

First the tutorial/intro:
http://juicystudio.com/tutorial/asp/classes.asp

Now for those articles.  They deal with uploading and calendar two
things which may well need to become first level functions /apps that
are available to developers from the beginning.  This means creating API
effectively to interact with the class level of things.

I would like to challenge some people to create draft proposals of the
examples given and work them into applications for the ASP infinity
project despite the fact that infinity does not technically do anything
yet.
Where-ever a call is outside the scope of the app a note should be made
of the requirement so that we create a form of road map towards a proper
RC for Asp Infinity.

This rises a few questions.  If Calendar is an application then it must
use the Database-Class however if it core tech exposing API for
developers then should it interface directly with the DB?  Where does
pure Object design give way to speed and so forth.

Further questions are raised which should be addressed and these include
what is core and what is application?  Where, if at all, do we draw the
line?  What data structure should an intrinsic calendar system use?
should upload be a core function and what should it do (if anything)
with it's data?  What should the designated default folder be for such
things and how does that effect the whole design?  How should defaults
be handled anyway?

Now I've opened a can of debate up here are the two articles begging to
become part of our project:

http://www.asp101.com/articles/jacob/calendar/default.asp
http://www.asp101.com/articles/jacob/scriptupload.asp

-Matt

A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.

PS.  It seems that my system has refused to send this mail (I did wonder
what had happened).  I'm sending again now.
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RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[Matt <mat...@ya...>]

Hi,

Nice idea, that sounds good

[Claps]

Talk more later (unwell).

-Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: David San Filippo [mailto:ds...@cr...]
Sent: 17 March 2005 22:08
To: Matt; ASP INFINITY MAILER
Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


Good Article. I didn't know vbscript classes supported properties
(http://juicystudio.com/tutorial/asp/oaccess.asp)

I actually want to create a simple module so you can see how I think
things should be put together, and what the framework needs to be able
to do.

I was thinking a "List of Links" Module. 

It would have several modes
View Mode which retrieves a list from a db and lists them. 
When granted Admin rights to the module, this mode would have edit links
next to each link.
Add Mode would be the interface for Adding Links.
Edit Mode would have the interface for Editing/Deleting Links.

Very Simple and show display the elegance of our approach. We will also
start to see the things that will be the responsibility of the
framework, and what will be left to the module in terms of
responsibilities.

-Ill let you know how it goes.

-Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Matt
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:28 PM
To: ASP INFINITY MAILER
Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

While searching through the great and mighty WWW for an example of OOD
for any members not total familiar with the idea I came across two
rather yummy articles.

First the tutorial/intro:
http://juicystudio.com/tutorial/asp/classes.asp

Now for those articles.  They deal with uploading and calendar two
things which may well need to become first level functions /apps that
are available to developers from the beginning.  This means creating API
effectively to interact with the class level of things.

I would like to challenge some people to create draft proposals of the
examples given and work them into applications for the ASP infinity
project despite the fact that infinity does not technically do anything
yet.
Where-ever a call is outside the scope of the app a note should be made
of the requirement so that we create a form of road map towards a proper
RC for Asp Infinity.

This rises a few questions.  If Calendar is an application then it must
use the Database-Class however if it core tech exposing API for
developers then should it interface directly with the DB?  Where does
pure Object design give way to speed and so forth.

Further questions are raised which should be addressed and these include
what is core and what is application?  Where, if at all, do we draw the
line?  What data structure should an intrinsic calendar system use?
should upload be a core function and what should it do (if anything)
with it's data?  What should the designated default folder be for such
things and how does that effect the whole design?  How should defaults
be handled anyway?

Now I've opened a can of debate up here are the two articles begging to
become part of our project:

http://www.asp101.com/articles/jacob/calendar/default.asp
http://www.asp101.com/articles/jacob/scriptupload.asp

-Matt

A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.

PS.  It seems that my system has refused to send this mail (I did wonder
what had happened).  I'm sending again now.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005





-------------------------------------------------------
SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid
reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[Adullam <Se...@ad...>]

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)

[Adullam <Se...@ad...>]

Hi
 
I start the ball rolling on history and skills background.  
 
I am the managing director of an IT start-up, I have been involved with
computers on and off for my entire life but it has only been the last
four or five years that have seen the intensive study and development.
My skills centre strongly around ASP / VBscript and advanced ideas of
data-relationships for which I have a nerdish fascination.  I have also
flirted with PHP and java and therefore am not completely unaware of
them although my skills stop as soon as there are any major syntax
differences from the languages I have used before.  
 
Many years ago I was quite the Turbo Pascal enthusiast.
 
I have been hacking endlessly in ASP (and some PHP) over the past years
and see no real reason to stop working in ASP just yet.  Projects have
tended to centre around information management and/or web portals.  I
have already created a basic system over the course of the last two
years but it is neither extensible nor portable.  I hope that this
project will one day replace the system I created/hacked-up.  This was a
substantial part of the final HNC year (HNC is Level 4 i.e. under grad).
 
It seems that so far we are in a broad agreement as to where we are
going next so if you do not mind I will cover a few points of jargon
that could cause difficulty if left unaddressed.
 
+ First we have a core (PoC) 
+ Then we have the modular components of the core these modules seem
generally to be referred to as class subsystems but occasionally I have
found myself thing of them as core modules...
+ Then we have Modules or Applications (Apps) which are the things that
will use the core to add functionality to the individual web sites.
 
I mention this now only so we can agree as to how to name them as
technically in a modular system most things can be called modules.
 
I would also like to address quite quickly
 
 
User
- An authentication/Security layer - It seems to me that the
"Authentication class" from before the PoC would handle this well with a
little further modification.
- User data
 
Technique
- An Object Persistence Layer
- A Data Access layer - how much this controls access to the DB and how
much this facilitates free access to the DB.  The fastest method would
be to allow direct SQL but this might not be the most secure.  Other
issues are the idea of providing a simplification of access tot he
database so that the Applications can be DB blind and not worry about
platform.  Many sections might be entirely separated from the DB using
the preset "API" to access information that ultimately does come from
the DB.
- etc - I am sure that a number of the items listed by Dave will find
there way here smartish as we start to plan.
 
UI and display issues
- A Module Rendering Object 
- A Page Rendering Object
- A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
 
I feel it is important to not be so pre-occupied with technical
perfection that we lose sight of the aims of the project.  I say this
mainly to myself as it is a personal bad habit of mine.
 
In all I feel there are three issues that need to be addressed and those
are first "Technique" and then "Users" and "Output".  I feel it would be
a shocking miss-spending of our time if we went too far in re-inventing
the wheel and I'd like to know if anyone knows of any GNU GPL/LGPL
projects that could provide a source for us to use in meeting certain
aims (I'm thinking particularly of the Rendering portion of Output).
 
I feel that once these issues have been addressed matters of finesse can
be addressed such as XML usage, module/app installation and
uninstallation, upload management object, Smilie processor, standardised
anti-SQL-inject functions, first few apps/modules etc.
 
One other point to consider is that the faster we arrive at visuals the
quicker we will garner support.
 
-Matt
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David San Filippo [mailto:ds...@cr...] 
Sent: 21 February 2005 14:12
To: asp...@li...
Subject: RE: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


Hi,
 
In my opinion the next steps is to really discuss the class subsystems
that will support the core functionality for each module.
 
But before we get into that, I was hoping to get a handle on the
background/strengths weaknesses of the other developers working on this
project.
 
I am an application developer who has been working full time as a
programmer for about 5 years. I live in New York City, am looking to
work on projects like this in my spare time, when my wife isn't around.
I am a Microsoft certified Application Developer (MCAD). My strengths
are in VB, VB.NET, classic asp, ASP.NET, C#, SQL, TSQL, etc    
 
Anyway, I also wanted to add some preface to the proof of concept. As
Matt indicated, there are no "dancing elephants." This is proving that
page rendering can be accomplished by dynamically initiating objects
based on database settings. It's really rough, but by extending this
concept we can create a fully functionally object management system in
asp. The end result is to package one base vbscript class with asp html
like forms to create a module. We can have the framework auto wire to
the class methods based on form settings. This provides a consistent
method for extending the core functionality any which way we want.
 
These are the kind of class subsystems that we will need to work on,
just off the top of my head.
 
A Data Access layer.
An authentication/Security layer.
An Object Persistence Layer
A Module Rendering Object
A Page Rendering Object
A Skin Object for Skinning Pages
A Metadata Object
A Configuration Layer (For Global Variables as demonstrated in the POC)
A Debug Object (As demonstrated in the POC)
A File IO Object
A XML IO Object
A File Upload Object

I haven't fully explored these ideas, I'm just throwing them out there.
 
Please let me know what you think.
 
-Dave
 
  _____  

From: asp...@li...
[mailto:asp...@li...] On Behalf Of
Adullam
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:26 AM
To: asp...@li...
Subject: [Aspinfinity-developer] (no subject)


Hi all,
 
I have added the proof of concept to the releases on sourceforge.
 
I would like to consider the PoC as a starting point to build our
framework from.  However there are a number of issues to address which I
will outline below for feedback.
 
Theme and UI: The core will need to allow for a seperate set of files
that in some way handle the look and feel seperate from the data and
logic layers.  The technique in the early trails centered arround a
module of functions and rendering subs.  This has some limits but has
the advantage of being tested and reasonably easy to document.  However
there are other options and these include a templating system of which
there exists one for ASP under the GNU.
 
Data Systems and Boot Strapping: In an ideal world the set up of the
system should be "upload files, naviagte to xyz.asp, follow on screen
promts." so the ideal of creating the connection to the database from a
file that the config creates is best.  This would mean that we would be
working DSN-less connection which has the advantage of slightly lower
server strain and given the nature of our object oriented design I can
see no benifit to using DSN.  
 
Where next: This is the key issue that we must address.  Although the
above issues will have a bering on this issue it is vital that we
address it directly at least in terms of planning and general direction.
 
I have drafted a short list but am open to alternatives.
 
Discussion of Proof of concept and surrounding ideas
Documentation of best practice and options for UI-Layer and the
advantages and disadvantages of each technique
Drafting of a list of requirements for the core functions (and
eventually creation thereof).  This would also include the use of the
authentication class with the core.
Development of PoC into a core system
First testing and feedback
 
-Matt