## Re: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells

 Re: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells From: petit raphael - 2002-05-23 23:01:33 ```hi ToF told me to come and see. i try to understand arianne: What, How and the last but not the least Why first of all it's great i'm not totally agree with a couple of your point of view but you have made a lot of work and you must have seen the issue so you're probably right i have read peter's mail and i'm worried about the following point how do you handle the computation on slot? at first i think that the slot can have dynamically new properties but after peter's mail i do not understand anymore because it seems to be a new idea what is your previous idea? here mine, a short story as example: << a man plan to travel ==> obj1 : human 80 kg (static and dynamic) he prepares sword armor food ==> obj 2 3 4 : 19Kg (static and dynamic) there's a bag ==> obj 5 : 1 kg (static and dynamic) he put it in a bag ==>obj 5 : 1 kg (static) 20 kg (dynamic) fill slot with obj 2 3 4 he takes the bag ==> obj 1: 80 kg (static) 100 kg (dynamic) fill slot with obj 5 he goes away==> .... there's a bridge==> obj 6 : resist 90 he walk on ==> ai process obj1.size compare to obj6.resist and plouf ==> 90 < 100 >> what is needed for this story 1-slot can handle new property which came from "sloted" item. all properties are agregate (computation depend on type) to provide slot properties 2-all property can be "duplicate" (i don't like this word because it's not exactly what i mean (i need english teacher!!!)) in order to have a static part => this is what truly be a dynamic part => this is what seems to be another simple example to show that all can be managed by this way (hope so) human (static) (dyn) STR 12 12 CON 12 12 DEX 12 12 resist X X human holds sword(DEX+3) and armor(CON+2) and ring of hercule(STR+5) and amulet of spider(resit venon 20%) (static) (dyn) STR 12 17 CON 12 14 DEX 12 15 resist X 20% human fight a flyer who can spit corrosive vomit (hehehe) standard attack AI process could be compare dex(dyn) of attacker and target if success update target life with attacker STR(dyn) and target CON(dyn) special attack AI process could be target.getProperty("resist") // return 0 if not available update target life with venon attack*randomize on resist now imagine there many human and many flyer =>you save computation of course you lose memory but what have you choose more memory and faster or less memory and slower? another point : EVOLUTION you design sword vs shield fight and magic fight, your world is ok and one day you plan to define magic shield ... previous process can handle this, the only thing to do is to allow adding in the slot a entity (spell) which have +20% CON property Evolution is important for the future and i'm afraid about limitation of slot Peter 's limitation can be handle by another way Int or Sag should be use for power/count spell well , sorry to be so long some other point will come later if you want bye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gantner" To: Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells > > Hello! > > I had this idea, I am not sure if it is not planned exactly like this > anyway, as it is very obvious IMO. > > As always, ignore or improve. > > > ###Outline for for a slot-based spells system > > #Abstract: > As Arianne is going to develop a system using slots for various > tasks, mainly placing objects on other objects, uses actions > "bound" to objects to modify the environment, and will use a > skills-based system for role-play. > > Perhaps these can be used for the magic system also. This means > spells are handled practically the same way other objects are. > > This would have the advantage of having just one system, code-wise as > RP-rules-wise, for all tasks of Arianne role-play. > > > #Basic System: > > Just like active objects have slots like hands, magically active > character have slots ("in their mind") where they can hold spells. > > readying a spell for casting is done like readying a weapon for > combat: > you put it in the according slot. > > characters with higher skill levels in the magical categories have > more slots in their "mind" they can put spells in. > > spells themselves are very simple Objects, with the spell-effect > handled with Actions. (Just the way it is done now) > > The spell-book (or pouch-of-rune-stones or whatever) is like the > inventory for spells, it can hold any number of spells, and of any > level, but to use a spell, it must be placed in a "mind slot" > > NOTE: that this has nothing to do with _how_ new spells are created > or learnt in-game, which was subject to discussion earlier. > > > #Advanced System: > > more powerful spells might take up two or more slots. > > The number of slots used for a powerful spell decreases with > experience in casting and overall magical skill. > > Thus, and inexperienced mage _may_ ready a powerful spell, but he > can hold less or no other spells at the same time (in role-play: he > must use all his magical resources to hold that powerful spell under > control) > For a more experienced mage, this spell is a minor task, he may > concentrate on his more powerful spells in parallel easily. > > Refilling empty slots or exchanging spells held in them takes > some amount of time. > > > #Example: > > Twig the Wonderkid is a young mage. With his current skill in magic, > he has five "mind slots". in his spellbook he has a fireball spell > (five slots), a "make light" (one slot), and a "magic missile" (two > slots). > As he starts exploring a dungeon, he calls a magic missile and three > light spells to his mind. > Later he learns that behind the next door is a powerful Goblin horde, > well asleep. To ready for combat, he sits down to meditate, removes > the spells from his mind and readies his fireball. > > Years later, he has learnt a lot more. > He has now 15 mind slots, and now his one-slot light spell holds for > much longer, so he only needs two of them to explore a dungeon. Also, > fireball and missile are well-known to him, missile takes also one > slot, and fileball two. > His most powerful spell is thunderstorm (12 slots), and he has some > medium spells at 5-8 slots. > So his advanced skills him much more flexibility on one hand, and > the possibility to perform _really_ powerful magic if he wants to. > > > #Analogies(?) > > spell =~ object > spell effect =~ object action > action "cast spell" =~ action "use object spell" > > > #To Do > > action XML files for spell effects > generic "spell" object + XML file > "mind slots" for player objects, linked to magic skill > > for the engine-code: nothing as I can tell everything is there(?) > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Backup: The duplicate copy of crucial data that no one bothered to make; > used only in the abstract. > ----------------------------------------------------=*nephros*=--------- > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > _______________________________________________ > Arianne-general mailing list > Arianne-general@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/arianne-general > ```

 [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells From: Peter Gantner - 2002-05-23 15:01:51 ```Hello! I had this idea, I am not sure if it is not planned exactly like this anyway, as it is very obvious IMO. As always, ignore or improve. ###Outline for for a slot-based spells system #Abstract: As Arianne is going to develop a system using slots for various tasks, mainly placing objects on other objects, uses actions "bound" to objects to modify the environment, and will use a skills-based system for role-play. Perhaps these can be used for the magic system also. This means spells are handled practically the same way other objects are. This would have the advantage of having just one system, code-wise as RP-rules-wise, for all tasks of Arianne role-play. #Basic System: Just like active objects have slots like hands, magically active character have slots ("in their mind") where they can hold spells. readying a spell for casting is done like readying a weapon for combat: you put it in the according slot. characters with higher skill levels in the magical categories have more slots in their "mind" they can put spells in. spells themselves are very simple Objects, with the spell-effect handled with Actions. (Just the way it is done now) The spell-book (or pouch-of-rune-stones or whatever) is like the inventory for spells, it can hold any number of spells, and of any level, but to use a spell, it must be placed in a "mind slot" NOTE: that this has nothing to do with _how_ new spells are created or learnt in-game, which was subject to discussion earlier. #Advanced System: more powerful spells might take up two or more slots. The number of slots used for a powerful spell decreases with experience in casting and overall magical skill. Thus, and inexperienced mage _may_ ready a powerful spell, but he can hold less or no other spells at the same time (in role-play: he must use all his magical resources to hold that powerful spell under control) For a more experienced mage, this spell is a minor task, he may concentrate on his more powerful spells in parallel easily. Refilling empty slots or exchanging spells held in them takes some amount of time. #Example: Twig the Wonderkid is a young mage. With his current skill in magic, he has five "mind slots". in his spellbook he has a fireball spell (five slots), a "make light" (one slot), and a "magic missile" (two slots). As he starts exploring a dungeon, he calls a magic missile and three light spells to his mind. Later he learns that behind the next door is a powerful Goblin horde, well asleep. To ready for combat, he sits down to meditate, removes the spells from his mind and readies his fireball. Years later, he has learnt a lot more. He has now 15 mind slots, and now his one-slot light spell holds for much longer, so he only needs two of them to explore a dungeon. Also, fireball and missile are well-known to him, missile takes also one slot, and fileball two. His most powerful spell is thunderstorm (12 slots), and he has some medium spells at 5-8 slots. So his advanced skills him much more flexibility on one hand, and the possibility to perform _really_ powerful magic if he wants to. #Analogies(?) spell =~ object spell effect =~ object action action "cast spell" =~ action "use object spell" #To Do action XML files for spell effects generic "spell" object + XML file "mind slots" for player objects, linked to magic skill for the engine-code: nothing as I can tell everything is there(?) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Backup: The duplicate copy of crucial data that no one bothered to make; used only in the abstract. ----------------------------------------------------=*nephros*=--------- ```
 Re: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells From: petit raphael - 2002-05-23 23:01:33 ```hi ToF told me to come and see. i try to understand arianne: What, How and the last but not the least Why first of all it's great i'm not totally agree with a couple of your point of view but you have made a lot of work and you must have seen the issue so you're probably right i have read peter's mail and i'm worried about the following point how do you handle the computation on slot? at first i think that the slot can have dynamically new properties but after peter's mail i do not understand anymore because it seems to be a new idea what is your previous idea? here mine, a short story as example: << a man plan to travel ==> obj1 : human 80 kg (static and dynamic) he prepares sword armor food ==> obj 2 3 4 : 19Kg (static and dynamic) there's a bag ==> obj 5 : 1 kg (static and dynamic) he put it in a bag ==>obj 5 : 1 kg (static) 20 kg (dynamic) fill slot with obj 2 3 4 he takes the bag ==> obj 1: 80 kg (static) 100 kg (dynamic) fill slot with obj 5 he goes away==> .... there's a bridge==> obj 6 : resist 90 he walk on ==> ai process obj1.size compare to obj6.resist and plouf ==> 90 < 100 >> what is needed for this story 1-slot can handle new property which came from "sloted" item. all properties are agregate (computation depend on type) to provide slot properties 2-all property can be "duplicate" (i don't like this word because it's not exactly what i mean (i need english teacher!!!)) in order to have a static part => this is what truly be a dynamic part => this is what seems to be another simple example to show that all can be managed by this way (hope so) human (static) (dyn) STR 12 12 CON 12 12 DEX 12 12 resist X X human holds sword(DEX+3) and armor(CON+2) and ring of hercule(STR+5) and amulet of spider(resit venon 20%) (static) (dyn) STR 12 17 CON 12 14 DEX 12 15 resist X 20% human fight a flyer who can spit corrosive vomit (hehehe) standard attack AI process could be compare dex(dyn) of attacker and target if success update target life with attacker STR(dyn) and target CON(dyn) special attack AI process could be target.getProperty("resist") // return 0 if not available update target life with venon attack*randomize on resist now imagine there many human and many flyer =>you save computation of course you lose memory but what have you choose more memory and faster or less memory and slower? another point : EVOLUTION you design sword vs shield fight and magic fight, your world is ok and one day you plan to define magic shield ... previous process can handle this, the only thing to do is to allow adding in the slot a entity (spell) which have +20% CON property Evolution is important for the future and i'm afraid about limitation of slot Peter 's limitation can be handle by another way Int or Sag should be use for power/count spell well , sorry to be so long some other point will come later if you want bye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gantner" To: Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells > > Hello! > > I had this idea, I am not sure if it is not planned exactly like this > anyway, as it is very obvious IMO. > > As always, ignore or improve. > > > ###Outline for for a slot-based spells system > > #Abstract: > As Arianne is going to develop a system using slots for various > tasks, mainly placing objects on other objects, uses actions > "bound" to objects to modify the environment, and will use a > skills-based system for role-play. > > Perhaps these can be used for the magic system also. This means > spells are handled practically the same way other objects are. > > This would have the advantage of having just one system, code-wise as > RP-rules-wise, for all tasks of Arianne role-play. > > > #Basic System: > > Just like active objects have slots like hands, magically active > character have slots ("in their mind") where they can hold spells. > > readying a spell for casting is done like readying a weapon for > combat: > you put it in the according slot. > > characters with higher skill levels in the magical categories have > more slots in their "mind" they can put spells in. > > spells themselves are very simple Objects, with the spell-effect > handled with Actions. (Just the way it is done now) > > The spell-book (or pouch-of-rune-stones or whatever) is like the > inventory for spells, it can hold any number of spells, and of any > level, but to use a spell, it must be placed in a "mind slot" > > NOTE: that this has nothing to do with _how_ new spells are created > or learnt in-game, which was subject to discussion earlier. > > > #Advanced System: > > more powerful spells might take up two or more slots. > > The number of slots used for a powerful spell decreases with > experience in casting and overall magical skill. > > Thus, and inexperienced mage _may_ ready a powerful spell, but he > can hold less or no other spells at the same time (in role-play: he > must use all his magical resources to hold that powerful spell under > control) > For a more experienced mage, this spell is a minor task, he may > concentrate on his more powerful spells in parallel easily. > > Refilling empty slots or exchanging spells held in them takes > some amount of time. > > > #Example: > > Twig the Wonderkid is a young mage. With his current skill in magic, > he has five "mind slots". in his spellbook he has a fireball spell > (five slots), a "make light" (one slot), and a "magic missile" (two > slots). > As he starts exploring a dungeon, he calls a magic missile and three > light spells to his mind. > Later he learns that behind the next door is a powerful Goblin horde, > well asleep. To ready for combat, he sits down to meditate, removes > the spells from his mind and readies his fireball. > > Years later, he has learnt a lot more. > He has now 15 mind slots, and now his one-slot light spell holds for > much longer, so he only needs two of them to explore a dungeon. Also, > fireball and missile are well-known to him, missile takes also one > slot, and fileball two. > His most powerful spell is thunderstorm (12 slots), and he has some > medium spells at 5-8 slots. > So his advanced skills him much more flexibility on one hand, and > the possibility to perform _really_ powerful magic if he wants to. > > > #Analogies(?) > > spell =~ object > spell effect =~ object action > action "cast spell" =~ action "use object spell" > > > #To Do > > action XML files for spell effects > generic "spell" object + XML file > "mind slots" for player objects, linked to magic skill > > for the engine-code: nothing as I can tell everything is there(?) > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Backup: The duplicate copy of crucial data that no one bothered to make; > used only in the abstract. > ----------------------------------------------------=*nephros*=--------- > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > _______________________________________________ > Arianne-general mailing list > Arianne-general@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/arianne-general > ```
 Re: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells From: Ulrich Eckhardt - 2002-05-25 09:17:19 ```Hello Peter! This is surely an interesting way of handling things, especially since the code to handle it is probably already present. One question though: Is this way similar to the 'memorize' thing of AD&D games ? > > more powerful spells might take up two or more slots. > > The number of slots used for a powerful spell decreases with > experience in casting and overall magical skill. > This is the one thing which I am strictly against: one Spell using more than a single slot. I would rather handle the spellcaster's mind like a container with a limited capacity. Spells then get a value how much of that capacity they need. That way, you don't limit your spells to integral values of difficulty. Another thing is that on the one hand, the capacity (# of slots) of your spellcaster increases with experience, on the other hand, the capacity (slots) required is decreased or the efficiency is increased. At least the capacity-related stuff could be combined, no ? uli ```
 Re: [Arianne-general] magic system - slots for spells From: Peter Gantner - 2002-05-25 20:29:10 ```Quoting Ulrich Eckhardt from May 25 > Hello Peter! > This is surely an interesting way of handling things, especially since the > code to handle it is probably already present. One question though: Is this > way similar to the 'memorize' thing of AD&D games ? yes and no. IIRC, at least in "classic" D&D (gosh, I am old), magicians can memorize spells, and not change them from sunrise to sundawn, _plus_ this spell could not be used again. I have always found this in-f#*&ing-credibly stupid. Why does casting a spell let me forget it at the same time? Whats so great about sundown that it magically (!) clears my mind everytime? BUT it adds a tactical flavour to magic, and I like this very much. My system would allow switching anytime, but "forcing" a spell out of a slot IMO must have some sort of penalty, or else the whole slot-limitation thing is useless. say, if you do this, all previoulsy used slots are unusable, but return 1 slot per gameturn. Magicians could then have a "spell preperation" skill which speeds this up. I am not sure wether _casting_ a spell should erase it from the slot, and wether this should also render slots unusable. (Perhaps both, with "one-shot" and "rechargeable" spells) > > more powerful spells might take up two or more slots. > > > > The number of slots used for a powerful spell decreases with > > experience in casting and overall magical skill. > > > This is the one thing which I am strictly against: one Spell using more than > a single slot. I would rather handle the spellcaster's mind like a container > with a limited capacity. Spells then get a value how much of that capacity > they need. That way, you don't limit your spells to integral values of > difficulty. Not sure if I understand you right, or if perhaps we are talking of the same thing already. Is it this what you mean: * one slot for each magic type (fire, earth, wood...) * each slot having different capacity depending on magic skill(s) * each spell taking up more or less of that capacity * but you can place several spells in the same slot until the slot is full. (if it is, I call it the "bag approach", you have differently sized bags where you can put in what you want until it is full) My idea is the "battleship" approach. the mind is represented as a field of squares, and differently sized "spell blocks" can be put on that square, until there are no squares left, just like you place your ships in the battleship game. (you could even make it a "tetris" approach if the spells have different shapes) > Another thing is that on the one hand, the capacity (# of slots) of your > spellcaster increases with experience, on the other hand, the capacity > (slots) required is decreased or the efficiency is increased. At least the > capacity-related stuff could be combined, no ? you are right. I see that only one of the things should be modified, IMO only the capacity should increase, with the spells staying the same "size". Unfortunately, this means that with the "battleship" approach more experienced mages would end up with vast inventory fields. This is a drawback of my design which your one does not have, and I do not like this fact. ;) ---= LAZY READERS STOP HERE. ALL DESIGN THINGIES SAID =--- '--------------------------------------------------------' That said, I add my "Philosophy of Arianne Metaphysics With Regard to ye ole Wizardes Minde", being what I think happens in the brain of a mage. Perhaps design can be derived from that, although the following does not really describe design. Magic does not come from "mana" or "the force". Instead, magical energy is created by channeling all kinds of metaphsical energies through the magicians body and/or spirit. To do this, complex patterns are created in the magicians mind, and the energies travel along these patterns. Consequently, Power is a combination of ability to channel at all (innate magic), and the knowledge how to do it, the knowledge of the patterns. These two things cannot be seperated. When the magician memorizes a spell (this is the D&D part), he reads the patterns out of his spell book (or runes, or singing or dancing) into his mind. From the moment the pattern is present in his mind, the magical energies start to flow along the pattern, and the spell is ready to be released, cast. Immediately after a spell is cast, the pattern remains, but is now void of energy. THIS IS THE ONLY MOMENT WHERE IT CAN BE DISCARDED WITHOUT PENALTY! After that moment, the energies slowly return. (The spell "recharges") If a charged pattern is forced out of the magicians mind, the energies still remain, without control. This explains why memorizing a differnt pattern is difficult at that time. This concludes my opus for today, sorry again for the long mail, Peter -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Backup: The duplicate copy of crucial data that no one bothered to make; used only in the abstract. ----------------------------------------------------=*nephros*=--------- ```