[quote]
- Magic System -
Arianne magic system is really great, also there is a big list of spells. You should take a look to it.
Anyway a feature that I have not seen in anygame is how magic is managed on Akelarre. On Akelarre, you
have a value that is magic believing(MB), that represent how strong you believe in magic. So to be able to
cast spells you need a big value on MB, but if you have a big MB others can also throw spells to you, so the
lower your MB is, the less chance is that you are affected by the spell. It can result in really enjoyable
situations. :)
Anyway one thing that I ask to a magic system is to make magic not a common thing, also to make it
powerful enough to be able to fight just with magic.
IMO it is very, very important to have a classless magic system, and of course there is the need to develop
better magic system that AD&D, just repeating, but Arianne has done a great work here.
[/quote]
That magic system does sound very interesting. One design goal is of mine is to offer multiple systems for the game creator to have available to them. This way they pick the system for their game, or use them all, having different races have different systems available to them.
I do believe static spells should be created by the words system I have developed so that the game creator can create their own spells. Some examples will of course be in the final product, but having them create their own spells will lead to diversity among the games created using the system. I am sure those of us from the MUD communtiy know the problems of thousands of clones existing. The problem was they all used the same game design, the same spells, etc etc. By forcing the game creator to make their own spells, and giving them multiple systems to choose from, clones while still possible, should not be as much of a problem.
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Sound good.
Also I think that user should be allowed to create new spells. Just perhaps mixing two known spells. It can result in a big improvement in the number and way of casting the spells.
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.......As far as i know there will be some special times/events when gods are willing to cooperate (eclipses, etc). Some spells of course will be hard to cast (meteor: Earth + Air) but powerfull and POSSIBLE.
Dante
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The best of the magic system in my opinion is:
- The possibility of Ritual Magic, that allow several magicians to join their power.
- The possibility of cast whatever spell, only that if you fail to cast an spell, because of lack of level, you may be hurt by the effect...
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The one thing about user created spells is balance. All kinda of rules will have to be created. The reason I went words is that a few words put togeter in many ways could result in many spells. This way I have a small table of words to make rules with rather than a large selection of spells.
Fire and Ice do not mix in a spell is an example. 'These words do not combine in to a castable spell'.
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I have written 2 complete spell systems that stand separate from any particular fantasy game. You could take the system and plug it in.
In this thread i've seen a couple references to "words" which sounds very much like my system "key magics"
in a nutshell, "key magics" are based off of magical tokens that the character has. By combining up to X 'keys' (3 in my system, but you could expand it) you can cast a spell. Each key has it's own hp, and it will be drained a little each time it's used (regenerates over time, but don't tap them completely!). More so if used in grand combinations.
Releasing a key magic spell would be based on your Key skill, the number of keys in the combination, and a random roll. if you're not very skilled, and you try to do some massive 4 key combo, you'll likely fail. You may be skilled enuf for auto-success with one, and be fairly successful with 2, but 4. . . forget it.
Some keys are very common... the elements, heal, pain, etc. Anyone could start with these keys or even buy them at a magic shop. Other keys, more powerful ones, would occur more rarely, or might even be unique.
There were also modifier keys... so lets say you keyed together Ball + Cold. . . you could basically throw a single snowball. But with one of the modifier keys -- Small, Minor, Large, Major, Many or Gods -- you could drastically increase the effect. Many + Gods + Cold + Ball... again, your skill determines how well it goes off, how many there are, and how hard they hit.
best thing about Key Magics is that it can be completely independent of your race or class. A 15th lvl fighter could decide to start pumping skill points into his Key Skill.
As a DM it was a bit of a nightmare to play... It gives a shit-ton of flexibility to the players, and they wound up trading keys just so they could do something specific and screw me in the head. In a situation where the rules are much more solid, it could work.
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oh uh... "keys" are typically physical representations of the magic they posess... so "strength" might be something very solid and strong, like an iron bar. Fire might be starfire ruby. Pain could be a small hatpin or ball of spikes. Air, an empty glass sphere. Whatever the case, most objects could fit comfortabley in the palm of the characters hand.
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One rule about magic on an on-line game, especially if its real time: never, Never, NEVER make magic system complicated. Why? Because complicated magic system would mean longer cast time, that would mean casters would not be able to compete with pure fighters where all they need to do is click-click-click till target die.
A concrete example would be anarchy on-line. Their "magic" system is too complicated that it is hard to cast magic in combat compared to say, squeezing a laser rifle trigger.
Some of you might argue that this is how reality works, but mind you that games that strive to enforce reality would not be a fun game. Hell, if I want reality, all I need to do is go outside of my house. The important issue is balance. Like it or not, combat WILL happen. If combat happens, you can't penalize a caster just because he's a caster by making it complicated for him to cast a spell.
I know its cool to have a complicated magic system, but please also consider the playability of the system. This will be linked heavily toward the GUI. For example, its OK to have word based magic if users can create macros to each spells. Its not OK to have word based magic if I need to pull each rune from a bag and arrange it every time I need to cast magic (realistic but stupid).
My 2 cents,
-Greg-
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it wouldn't HAVE to be complicated tho... yeah if you have to build the spell everytime you want to cast, well that would suck.
a casting interface is liketly to be built anyway, something separate from inventory and character, so this would be no different. with several slots to build prefab-combinations, then assign the combo to a key.
you most certainly wouldn't want to change a combination in combat, but doing so at another time when you could take your time.
I hear ya tho... nothin like a screwed up magic system to ruin any game.
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I must disagree here, the anarchy-online magic system works very well, you have your direct attack spells on your quick bar and hit with them ever as fast as an enforcer with a hammer.
If you have summoned your pets you send them into battle and enhance them with spells, again as fast as any melee or ranged fighter class.
To make a key based magic system work fast you do however need some way for the magic user to save favorite combos like major+fire+ball at the press of one button so that he can make up new spells when he has time but the ones he uses often, in battle or in pressed situations are ready in his spellbook
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a key is a physical representation of the magic it carries. the one thing they all had in common was that a key could easily fit in the palm of the average hand.
This was the most confounding part for my players. when they'd find keys, i would hand them something... a 3inch steel bar = strength. superball laced with rivulets of red and yellow = fire. no telling what it is until you either 1) identify it or 2) try to use it.
In an iconic video game (supported by text description) this could prove to be a real challenge for the player (=
"do i use it and risk blowing up? or do i drop the 100 coin to get it identified?"
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Anonymous
Anonymous
-
2003-01-05
A problem with magic is that you (we, me, us) have to figure out all possible combinations of 'words' (which seems to be what a few of you are talking about). This really isnt a problem, but would take some time to do. The problem with this is the combination of a certian series of words could make an overpowered, and hugely desirable spell, which when employed against a mob, or player, it would do serious harm (Im saying instant kills, or somthing so damn close it doesn't matter). Of course to remedy this, we make the spells underpowered enough for this not to happen. But this leads to melee characters having the edge in PvP (Player vs Player) as they will be able to dish out more damage in the time of the battle, eliminating the caster before they get their spells off, and give them a chance to win the battle. I've played a few MMORPGS in the past (and the current present) ;) , and have discovered that over time magic and melee becomes unbalanced. One is much much more powerful then the other, leading to players crying out for a change that this class or that is now somwhere permantly in the god levels due to this sword, or that spell....i have no idea where im going with this, but i think theres a jist in there somwhere....lemme think about it, im outa here.
Aaiden.
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How about a "Magic Points" system. i.e. 35/35 magic points -> cast spell costing 14 magic points -> 21/35 and slowly regenerates. then have 5 elements (fire, water, earth, electric, and something else [doesnt matter]). Of those 5 elements have 5 base spells, each requiring the previous as a prerequisite and each increase in power (maybe single target spells evolve to multi-target spells). then you could have "keywords" that cast new spells and create more powerful ones.
... I can't really think of any more elements but I think you get the idea.
To the casting speed problem, make it possible to macro spells. then just hit F1 and click a monster to hit it with Flames. And i dont think you should make it the type of thing where u click each time to hit it, make it attack til you click something else or the monster dies.
I hope these ideas help.
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Anonymous
Anonymous
-
2003-03-13
Hello, and yes it has been a long time...
I don't think you will find a wrong answer in anything you can say here. Perhaps the issue when dealing with the system is not to determine what spells we want but what questions to ask.
So let me throw some out and perhaps we can get further answering them(perhaps not). Start Big > work to small.
Magic could require..
1) A source
2) A host
3) A key and/or focus(or multiple)
4) An action/or non-action
5) A phrase(or multiple)
6) An environment
7) A target
8) Training
and more....
So let's work this into a few examples using monsto's keys.
Let's start with a concept of variables. Every requirement is a variable that manipulates the spells outcome. If you create 5-10 variables for each requirement, you gain...well over a billion spells, well since no one wants to create a billion spells, let's do it with variables...
Source - Mana
Host - Wizard
Training - level 2 sorcery
Focus - Wand of the initiate(lvl 1)
Key - Onyx Powder
Action - movement required, interruptible
Phrase - Menos Fuera
Environment - No special environment
Target - Other
Spell = Minor Flamebolt
Damage = 2 * focus lvl * training * host effect(100% in this case) * 80-120%(rand)
------
Change a variable
Focus - Wand of flame (lvl 2, lvl3 for fire basedt spells)
Change a variable
host - Hell Hound (Fire effect 150%)
Change a variable
Phrase - majos fuera (3 * instead of 2)
- menos froza (ice instead of fire)
---
So let's try another example
Source - Health
Host - Necromancer
Training - level 5 necromancy
Focus - Bone Staff (lvl 7)
Key - Mercury
Action - movement required, interruptible
Phrase - Tofa Enos Grata
Environment - No special environment
Target - Other
Spell = Transfer Life
Change a variable
Key - Blood of Troll (50% mana cost)
----
So you get the idea.
So what variables are there?
How do you get people to make or learn the spells?
How do they quickslot them?
Is there spell failure?
Will spells take from health if mana is not sufficient? or stamina then health...
Oh my goodness I could have a field day here.
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Anonymous
Anonymous
-
2003-03-13
Now personally I loved ACs magic system, but They limited themselves, companies alweays do.
Create the variables, let the game make the spells.
Sources
1) Mana
2) Stamina
3) Health
4) Experience!
5) None (Cantrip)
Hosts
1) Every player class in the game with any magic training or every trainable casting skill type
2) All the mobs
3) Objects
4) Area effects
Keys
1) Unlimited
2) None (Cantrip)
Focuses
1) Wands
2) Staffs
3) None
Action
1) Movement(Somatic), interruptible
2) Still, not interruptible
3) While flying
4) While running
Phrase
1) Silent
2) Power word
3) Element word
4) Source word
Environment
1) Darkness
2) Mezzed, Stunned, Rooted, Held, Bound
3) In Element (water for example)
Target
Self
Other
Group
Corpse
Item
Personal Area
Ground Area
Remote Area
Training
Spell School Training(sorcery, necromancy)
Spell Training
Stat Training(ability scores)
Cross Training
oh boy...
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Well i think about this: Ye should have the elements(Fire,Water,Air,Earth,(Good,Evil,Psi))then ye would have like Fire skill 5 or something then ye select the spell and hold the button and the spell comes more powerfuller and the more powerfuller it comes more harder its to control it, so there would be a change of backfire(target self). When ya use the spells of the element ye get better in the skill. And there should be more magic caster classes than just "Mage" or "Wizard" it would be cool to have like Necromancer, Cleric, Firemage, Watermage, Airmage, Psicionist and so on. That would make the game like that necromancer can summon undeads, cleric can do more dama on undead, psi is good against weak minded foes and so on...
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Well a good idead, but I want to highlight that magic shouldn't be a too common thing. It is truly a pity that some RPGs' magic is just selecting a spell and selecting the target to throw the spell on and that kind of things just takes all the intrest of becoming a magic user.
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[quote]
- Magic System -
Arianne magic system is really great, also there is a big list of spells. You should take a look to it.
Anyway a feature that I have not seen in anygame is how magic is managed on Akelarre. On Akelarre, you
have a value that is magic believing(MB), that represent how strong you believe in magic. So to be able to
cast spells you need a big value on MB, but if you have a big MB others can also throw spells to you, so the
lower your MB is, the less chance is that you are affected by the spell. It can result in really enjoyable
situations. :)
Anyway one thing that I ask to a magic system is to make magic not a common thing, also to make it
powerful enough to be able to fight just with magic.
IMO it is very, very important to have a classless magic system, and of course there is the need to develop
better magic system that AD&D, just repeating, but Arianne has done a great work here.
[/quote]
That magic system does sound very interesting. One design goal is of mine is to offer multiple systems for the game creator to have available to them. This way they pick the system for their game, or use them all, having different races have different systems available to them.
I do believe static spells should be created by the words system I have developed so that the game creator can create their own spells. Some examples will of course be in the final product, but having them create their own spells will lead to diversity among the games created using the system. I am sure those of us from the MUD communtiy know the problems of thousands of clones existing. The problem was they all used the same game design, the same spells, etc etc. By forcing the game creator to make their own spells, and giving them multiple systems to choose from, clones while still possible, should not be as much of a problem.
Sound good.
Also I think that user should be allowed to create new spells. Just perhaps mixing two known spells. It can result in a big improvement in the number and way of casting the spells.
.......As far as i know there will be some special times/events when gods are willing to cooperate (eclipses, etc). Some spells of course will be hard to cast (meteor: Earth + Air) but powerfull and POSSIBLE.
Dante
The best of the magic system in my opinion is:
- The possibility of Ritual Magic, that allow several magicians to join their power.
- The possibility of cast whatever spell, only that if you fail to cast an spell, because of lack of level, you may be hurt by the effect...
The one thing about user created spells is balance. All kinda of rules will have to be created. The reason I went words is that a few words put togeter in many ways could result in many spells. This way I have a small table of words to make rules with rather than a large selection of spells.
Fire and Ice do not mix in a spell is an example. 'These words do not combine in to a castable spell'.
There should be at least one exception: Armageddon.
Fire destructive side + Water destructive side + Air destructive side + Earth destructive side.
y0h monsto here. . . monsto AT comcast DOT net
I have written 2 complete spell systems that stand separate from any particular fantasy game. You could take the system and plug it in.
In this thread i've seen a couple references to "words" which sounds very much like my system "key magics"
in a nutshell, "key magics" are based off of magical tokens that the character has. By combining up to X 'keys' (3 in my system, but you could expand it) you can cast a spell. Each key has it's own hp, and it will be drained a little each time it's used (regenerates over time, but don't tap them completely!). More so if used in grand combinations.
Releasing a key magic spell would be based on your Key skill, the number of keys in the combination, and a random roll. if you're not very skilled, and you try to do some massive 4 key combo, you'll likely fail. You may be skilled enuf for auto-success with one, and be fairly successful with 2, but 4. . . forget it.
Some keys are very common... the elements, heal, pain, etc. Anyone could start with these keys or even buy them at a magic shop. Other keys, more powerful ones, would occur more rarely, or might even be unique.
There were also modifier keys... so lets say you keyed together Ball + Cold. . . you could basically throw a single snowball. But with one of the modifier keys -- Small, Minor, Large, Major, Many or Gods -- you could drastically increase the effect. Many + Gods + Cold + Ball... again, your skill determines how well it goes off, how many there are, and how hard they hit.
best thing about Key Magics is that it can be completely independent of your race or class. A 15th lvl fighter could decide to start pumping skill points into his Key Skill.
As a DM it was a bit of a nightmare to play... It gives a shit-ton of flexibility to the players, and they wound up trading keys just so they could do something specific and screw me in the head. In a situation where the rules are much more solid, it could work.
Monsto again.
oh uh... "keys" are typically physical representations of the magic they posess... so "strength" might be something very solid and strong, like an iron bar. Fire might be starfire ruby. Pain could be a small hatpin or ball of spikes. Air, an empty glass sphere. Whatever the case, most objects could fit comfortabley in the palm of the characters hand.
One rule about magic on an on-line game, especially if its real time: never, Never, NEVER make magic system complicated. Why? Because complicated magic system would mean longer cast time, that would mean casters would not be able to compete with pure fighters where all they need to do is click-click-click till target die.
A concrete example would be anarchy on-line. Their "magic" system is too complicated that it is hard to cast magic in combat compared to say, squeezing a laser rifle trigger.
Some of you might argue that this is how reality works, but mind you that games that strive to enforce reality would not be a fun game. Hell, if I want reality, all I need to do is go outside of my house. The important issue is balance. Like it or not, combat WILL happen. If combat happens, you can't penalize a caster just because he's a caster by making it complicated for him to cast a spell.
I know its cool to have a complicated magic system, but please also consider the playability of the system. This will be linked heavily toward the GUI. For example, its OK to have word based magic if users can create macros to each spells. Its not OK to have word based magic if I need to pull each rune from a bag and arrange it every time I need to cast magic (realistic but stupid).
My 2 cents,
-Greg-
it wouldn't HAVE to be complicated tho... yeah if you have to build the spell everytime you want to cast, well that would suck.
a casting interface is liketly to be built anyway, something separate from inventory and character, so this would be no different. with several slots to build prefab-combinations, then assign the combo to a key.
you most certainly wouldn't want to change a combination in combat, but doing so at another time when you could take your time.
I hear ya tho... nothin like a screwed up magic system to ruin any game.
I must disagree here, the anarchy-online magic system works very well, you have your direct attack spells on your quick bar and hit with them ever as fast as an enforcer with a hammer.
If you have summoned your pets you send them into battle and enhance them with spells, again as fast as any melee or ranged fighter class.
To make a key based magic system work fast you do however need some way for the magic user to save favorite combos like major+fire+ball at the press of one button so that he can make up new spells when he has time but the ones he uses often, in battle or in pressed situations are ready in his spellbook
monsto again...
a key is a physical representation of the magic it carries. the one thing they all had in common was that a key could easily fit in the palm of the average hand.
This was the most confounding part for my players. when they'd find keys, i would hand them something... a 3inch steel bar = strength. superball laced with rivulets of red and yellow = fire. no telling what it is until you either 1) identify it or 2) try to use it.
In an iconic video game (supported by text description) this could prove to be a real challenge for the player (=
"do i use it and risk blowing up? or do i drop the 100 coin to get it identified?"
A problem with magic is that you (we, me, us) have to figure out all possible combinations of 'words' (which seems to be what a few of you are talking about). This really isnt a problem, but would take some time to do. The problem with this is the combination of a certian series of words could make an overpowered, and hugely desirable spell, which when employed against a mob, or player, it would do serious harm (Im saying instant kills, or somthing so damn close it doesn't matter). Of course to remedy this, we make the spells underpowered enough for this not to happen. But this leads to melee characters having the edge in PvP (Player vs Player) as they will be able to dish out more damage in the time of the battle, eliminating the caster before they get their spells off, and give them a chance to win the battle. I've played a few MMORPGS in the past (and the current present) ;) , and have discovered that over time magic and melee becomes unbalanced. One is much much more powerful then the other, leading to players crying out for a change that this class or that is now somwhere permantly in the god levels due to this sword, or that spell....i have no idea where im going with this, but i think theres a jist in there somwhere....lemme think about it, im outa here.
Aaiden.
How about a "Magic Points" system. i.e. 35/35 magic points -> cast spell costing 14 magic points -> 21/35 and slowly regenerates. then have 5 elements (fire, water, earth, electric, and something else [doesnt matter]). Of those 5 elements have 5 base spells, each requiring the previous as a prerequisite and each increase in power (maybe single target spells evolve to multi-target spells). then you could have "keywords" that cast new spells and create more powerful ones.
Possible Setup:
Fire
-- Fireball (5 MP, 10 Damage, No Reqs)
-- Flames (8 MP, 14 Damage, Req: Fireball)
-- Inferno (14 MP, 20 Damage, Req: Flames)
-- Firestorm (20 MP, 38 Damage, Req: Inferno)
-- Armeggedon (30 MP, 50 Damage, Req: Firestorm, Glacier, Earthquake, )
Ice
-- Icicle Blast (4 MP, 9 Damage)
-- Iceball (7 MP, 12 Damage)
-- Freeze (15 MP, 18 Damage)
-- Glacier (20 MP, 23 Damage)
-- Armeggedon (30 MP, 50 Damage)
Earth
-- Dust Cloud (2 MP, 5 Damage)
-- Dirtball (5 MP, 8 Damage)
-- SandStorm (20 MP, 20 Damage)
-- Earthquake (25 MP, 25 Damage)
-- Armeggedon (30 MP, 50 Damage)
... I can't really think of any more elements but I think you get the idea.
To the casting speed problem, make it possible to macro spells. then just hit F1 and click a monster to hit it with Flames. And i dont think you should make it the type of thing where u click each time to hit it, make it attack til you click something else or the monster dies.
I hope these ideas help.
Hello, and yes it has been a long time...
I don't think you will find a wrong answer in anything you can say here. Perhaps the issue when dealing with the system is not to determine what spells we want but what questions to ask.
So let me throw some out and perhaps we can get further answering them(perhaps not). Start Big > work to small.
Magic could require..
1) A source
2) A host
3) A key and/or focus(or multiple)
4) An action/or non-action
5) A phrase(or multiple)
6) An environment
7) A target
8) Training
and more....
So let's work this into a few examples using monsto's keys.
Let's start with a concept of variables. Every requirement is a variable that manipulates the spells outcome. If you create 5-10 variables for each requirement, you gain...well over a billion spells, well since no one wants to create a billion spells, let's do it with variables...
Source - Mana
Host - Wizard
Training - level 2 sorcery
Focus - Wand of the initiate(lvl 1)
Key - Onyx Powder
Action - movement required, interruptible
Phrase - Menos Fuera
Environment - No special environment
Target - Other
Spell = Minor Flamebolt
Damage = 2 * focus lvl * training * host effect(100% in this case) * 80-120%(rand)
------
Change a variable
Focus - Wand of flame (lvl 2, lvl3 for fire basedt spells)
Change a variable
host - Hell Hound (Fire effect 150%)
Change a variable
Phrase - majos fuera (3 * instead of 2)
- menos froza (ice instead of fire)
---
So let's try another example
Source - Health
Host - Necromancer
Training - level 5 necromancy
Focus - Bone Staff (lvl 7)
Key - Mercury
Action - movement required, interruptible
Phrase - Tofa Enos Grata
Environment - No special environment
Target - Other
Spell = Transfer Life
Change a variable
Key - Blood of Troll (50% mana cost)
----
So you get the idea.
So what variables are there?
How do you get people to make or learn the spells?
How do they quickslot them?
Is there spell failure?
Will spells take from health if mana is not sufficient? or stamina then health...
Oh my goodness I could have a field day here.
Now personally I loved ACs magic system, but They limited themselves, companies alweays do.
Create the variables, let the game make the spells.
Sources
1) Mana
2) Stamina
3) Health
4) Experience!
5) None (Cantrip)
Hosts
1) Every player class in the game with any magic training or every trainable casting skill type
2) All the mobs
3) Objects
4) Area effects
Keys
1) Unlimited
2) None (Cantrip)
Focuses
1) Wands
2) Staffs
3) None
Action
1) Movement(Somatic), interruptible
2) Still, not interruptible
3) While flying
4) While running
Phrase
1) Silent
2) Power word
3) Element word
4) Source word
Environment
1) Darkness
2) Mezzed, Stunned, Rooted, Held, Bound
3) In Element (water for example)
Target
Self
Other
Group
Corpse
Item
Personal Area
Ground Area
Remote Area
Training
Spell School Training(sorcery, necromancy)
Spell Training
Stat Training(ability scores)
Cross Training
oh boy...
Well i think about this: Ye should have the elements(Fire,Water,Air,Earth,(Good,Evil,Psi))then ye would have like Fire skill 5 or something then ye select the spell and hold the button and the spell comes more powerfuller and the more powerfuller it comes more harder its to control it, so there would be a change of backfire(target self). When ya use the spells of the element ye get better in the skill. And there should be more magic caster classes than just "Mage" or "Wizard" it would be cool to have like Necromancer, Cleric, Firemage, Watermage, Airmage, Psicionist and so on. That would make the game like that necromancer can summon undeads, cleric can do more dama on undead, psi is good against weak minded foes and so on...
Well a good idead, but I want to highlight that magic shouldn't be a too common thing. It is truly a pity that some RPGs' magic is just selecting a spell and selecting the target to throw the spell on and that kind of things just takes all the intrest of becoming a magic user.