anygui-devel Mailing List for anygui - Generic GUI Module for Python (Page 3)
Brought to you by:
mlh
You can subscribe to this list here.
2001 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
(8) |
Jul
(286) |
Aug
(438) |
Sep
(326) |
Oct
(392) |
Nov
(494) |
Dec
(591) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
2002 |
Jan
(247) |
Feb
(228) |
Mar
(85) |
Apr
(41) |
May
(82) |
Jun
(28) |
Jul
(117) |
Aug
(114) |
Sep
(119) |
Oct
(34) |
Nov
(85) |
Dec
(5) |
2003 |
Jan
(17) |
Feb
(27) |
Mar
(30) |
Apr
(19) |
May
(20) |
Jun
(4) |
Jul
(6) |
Aug
(11) |
Sep
(6) |
Oct
(2) |
Nov
(6) |
Dec
(5) |
2004 |
Jan
|
Feb
(57) |
Mar
(5) |
Apr
(30) |
May
|
Jun
(2) |
Jul
(3) |
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
(2) |
Nov
(1) |
Dec
(3) |
2005 |
Jan
|
Feb
|
Mar
(3) |
Apr
(3) |
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
(20) |
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
|
Dec
|
2008 |
Jan
(2) |
Feb
|
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
|
Dec
|
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 18:59:26
|
Terry Hancock <ha...@an...>: > [snip] Thanks for a thorough and interesting analysis. I think you describe how things are, and it seems like a very healthy state of affairs, in my opinion. > Hoping this is encouraging, Absolutely. > Terry -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 18:58:11
|
Sascha Silbe <sas...@si...>: [snip] > PS: It's very nice to see there are other people out there thinking like > I do. Not feeling quite so lonely and lost now. :) Well, every cloud ... Silver linings and all that. :) > CU Sascha -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Terry H. <ha...@an...> - 2004-04-10 15:10:42
|
On Friday 09 April 2004 06:51 pm, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote: > Laura Creighton <la...@st...>: > > MLH, what you have demonstrated, at worst-best is the courage to > > fail. > > Or just youthful exuberance and enthusiasm... or something ;) > > > You think that this is a still live project, and I think that it has > > failed, > > Well... I think it deserves the necessary work to get a 0.2 release > out the door -- all the work that went into the new architecture ought > to be able to crawl out of CVS. > > On the other hand: The project does not seem as "live" as it did to me > originally. I guess one of the reasons I'm still motivated to work on > it is guilt about the sort of issues raised by our complaining > would-be user here. Not sure whether getting a release will really > help anyone there, though. Hmm. "Failure" of an open-source project is not a clear-cut process, almost by definition. Consider: Joseph Strout wrote "Python Universe Builder" (PUB) (in about 1996), then he got a job, got interested in MUDs instead of interactive fiction, and lost interest. No one had contributed significantly to his project, and it "died". Failed or Not? Then I started "The Light Princess" at SF, because somebody had told me that open-source games had crappy graphics and stories because *creative types WOULD NOT OPEN-SOURCE their work*. I took that as a challenge, and I was, in a matter of months able to locate four character artists, 3-D environment artists, a good public-domain story, and even someone who had previously written a stage-adaptation of the same story. I two musicians, and even a few voice actors willing to give the project a try. But we had no game engine, and not enough PROGRAMMERS intersted in the project. So, in my attempt to salvage this situation, I created a separate game engine project "Automanga" and discovered Strout's PUB. After finding out its status, I adopted it and made it into the Py-Universe SF project in 2000. That wasn't enough, I didn't really have the skill to write a game engine all by myself, there weren't enough people interested in finishing the engine, *I* got a job, and I had to announce that, basically, "The Light Princess" and "Automanga" were dead projects. Naturally, I stopped working on Py-Universe too, since I no longer needed it. Failed or Not? Py-Universe stayed dead for about 2-years. The only thing on the mailing list was spam, and I had accidentally bumped myself off of it. But I didn't notice because there was so little traffic. In 2003, someone new got interested in Py-Universe and spent about 6 months trying to get hold of me because of my SNAFU with the mail. I only found out about it because they were having a discussion about forking the project, and someone thought to CC me! Anyway, this guy sent me some very heated emails and I apologized profusely and fixed him up as a developer on the site, created a Wiki and some other stuff so they could keep working, even IF I fell out of the loop again, which I thought was a useful guarantee. Now, the Py-Universe project is alive again in 2004 -- with about SEVEN developers and a new modularized, component architecture rewrite underway. I'm not doing very much of the work (just making sure the website keeps working), but I have been really impressed with this. I'm waffling over whether to become more active, or just ask this new guy to be the maintainer. This project is EIGHT years old. And it's only been active for about 2 or 3 of those. Yet, at present, it's basically a healthy project. All I'm saying is, you never know. Maybe the time hasn't come yet, or the critical developer interest isn't there. Or you just have too many other commitments, but all of that is subject to change. And stuff can sit dead for ages and then revive in days. This isn't really because it's *open-source*, but because it's being done by *amateurs* (even if the amateurs also program on their day-jobs). Some of the participants may be supported by their employers to work on open-source projects -- but those are the lucky ones. Most of us are just involved because we love working on it. And those interests and priorities will naturally change. Even the "Light Princess" project *might* wake up again in some form -- since I left it for dead, others have written game engines like Cog (Py-Game), that might work or be adapted to work for it, and the Py-Universe's new design directions might help, too. But I've got way too much on my plate to deal with it now. So don't beat yourself up over it. If you get a "0.2 release" that would be awesome -- any time you can close things up to a point where the code can be installed and runs, you greatly increase the chance that some passerby will pick it up and try it out. But some people will pick it up anyway. Sometimes a project will be obsolete (for awhile I thought that Automanga was redundant with Animatronik (http://www.animatronik.org), the only reason it's not is because the latter was never released either ;-) ). I think about 80-90% of the projects at SF are in this kind of state of inactivity. Things may be worse (at least for American programmers), because lately they're all scrambling for employment (me too), but things will pick up again. It's just a matter of time. Hoping this is encouraging, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com |
From: Prabhu R. <pr...@ae...> - 2004-04-10 11:35:17
|
>>>>> "MLH" == Magnus Lie Hetland <ma...@he...> writes: MLH> Prabhu Ramachandran <pr...@ae...>: MLH> [snip] >> So, here is a person who is evidently in anger (and therefore >> behaves like a complete jackass), can't spell, is incompetent >> to help with the project and is stupid enough to hurt the >> person who tried to the make the world a better place. Do you >> really value the opinion of such a person? MLH> No, you're perfectly right. I guess the problem is that it's MLH> so easy to assume that other people agree with him -- so it's MLH> very nice to hear such encouraging words. Thanks! (To all of MLH> you.) I completely understand your point. I also find it hard to digest when someone says something that is completely asinine. I often assume that it is me who is wrong. Sometimes one tends to think, maybe everyone I know is nice to me. Perhaps the reality is that I have failed (or some such depressing thing). But there comes a time when you *have* to *judge* the statement and not accept it as truth. Its hard (atleast it is for me) but I guess just requires a lot of training. It is also true that sane people sometimes make asinine remarks. Life is complex! So, I'll repeat what Laura has said so well. You do a terrific job, even if you fail, even if projects are never completed, you generate great ideas and do spend heck of a lot of time on the project. It can't be helped if things don't turn out well. Its life. If some angry person can't see that he/she had better grow up. >> p.s. I was surprised by the small print in the Atox >> announcement. I now understand the reason. MLH> Yeah. A bit paranoid, I suppose. I actually added that after Also completely understandable! So please don't be so hard on yourself. :) MLH> a previous posting on comp.lang.python, where the reaction to MLH> my first Atox announcement was: "Oh, great, another project MLH> for MLH to abandon." Some people ought to have the sentences "OSS developers usually do this in their spare time" and "if I can't help the project the least I can do is shut my trap" burnt into their heads. ;-) MLH> Oh, well. I recently took a test to determine my "strengths", MLH> and was surprised that several of the things I had thought MLH> about as weaknesses came up. For example, my ability to be MLH> fascinated by new things -- as opposed to my inability to MLH> finish things... It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose MLH> :) True. Everything is relative and ephemeral, indeed. Perhaps we take ourselves (and the random statements of others) too seriously sometimes. :) cheers, prabhu |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 11:11:29
|
Prabhu Ramachandran <pr...@ae...>: > > Dear Magnus, > [snip] > So, here is a person who is evidently in anger (and therefore behaves > like a complete jackass), can't spell, is incompetent to help with the > project and is stupid enough to hurt the person who tried to the make > the world a better place. Do you really value the opinion of such a > person? No, you're perfectly right. I guess the problem is that it's so easy to assume that other people agree with him -- so it's very nice to hear such encouraging words. Thanks! (To all of you.) > cheers, > prabhu > > p.s. I was surprised by the small print in the Atox announcement. I > now understand the reason. Yeah. A bit paranoid, I suppose. I actually added that after a previous posting on comp.lang.python, where the reaction to my first Atox announcement was: "Oh, great, another project for MLH to abandon." Oh, well. I recently took a test to determine my "strengths", and was surprised that several of the things I had thought about as weaknesses came up. For example, my ability to be fascinated by new things -- as opposed to my inability to finish things... It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose :) -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Laura C. <la...@st...> - 2004-04-10 11:00:02
|
>I guess this is basically the same as Laura has been saying, but I >have a similar philosophy about why academia is (and should be) the >way it is, with lots of people getting payed to play around with their >ideas, and with little control over what they're actually working >with. IMO, it has to be this way, because you must cast the net wide >to get at the gold nuggets (to mix some metaphors). I think it's more basic as a problem. in FAQ format, for your amusement:-) Why is the world still so broken? Because creative people still havn't solved the 'how do we ensure that we all get decent, reasonable lives' problem. Slackers! Why haven't they (we)? :-) :-) Well, in part because they fear failure, and getting mail like you just got. Constructive critisism is always nice. But that man just vented his disappointment and angst on you. Pity him. and then bravely go out and do it again! Laura |
From: Prabhu R. <pr...@ae...> - 2004-04-10 10:59:55
|
Dear Magnus, As someone who has followed this project, I feel for you. Its always nice receiving a pleasant email thanking you for your work on an OSS project. Its terrible receiving something as lousy as this. Most of us never receive a post thats this mean and downright stupid. I think you are taking this character a little too seriously. Is this persons opinion of any importance to you? Everyone on the face of this planet has an opinion. Only few of them really matter to you. Everyone in this community appreciates your work and the goals you seek to achieve with this project. Then again if someone's opinion does matter to you, they would never say things the way this person did. This character is a troll, quite out of his/her mind and really has nothing sensible to say. If the person was worth his/her salt he/she have chosen to help with the project. You are not obliged to anyone. Its evident that the person understands little of the "Linux community" and how it works. You did not claim to create something in a year that something substantial would result. You certainly did not intrude on anyone, you (along with many others) tried to do something really cool. So you can't be "condemmend and ostrisized" (the moron can't spell!). Hmm, perhaps he really means "commended". The person also does not know what ostracized means. Unless of course you are to be ostracized from the person's community, which would be a blessing. So, here is a person who is evidently in anger (and therefore behaves like a complete jackass), can't spell, is incompetent to help with the project and is stupid enough to hurt the person who tried to the make the world a better place. Do you really value the opinion of such a person? The post is best ignored. Its simply not worth it. Essentially, don't worry about trolls, you (and we) know you have done the best you can for a community. So as Laura best put it "to hell with this moron." Keep up the cool ideas and great work. cheers, prabhu p.s. I was surprised by the small print in the Atox announcement. I now understand the reason. >>>>> "MLH" == Magnus Lie Hetland <ma...@he...> writes: MLH> Laura Creighton <la...@st...>: >> MLH> [snip] >> MLH, what you have demonstrated, at worst-best is the courage >> to fail. MLH> Or just youthful exuberance and enthusiasm... or something ;) >> You think that this is a still live project, and I think that >> it has failed, MLH> Well... I think it deserves the necessary work to get a 0.2 MLH> release out the door -- all the work that went into the new MLH> architecture ought to be able to crawl out of CVS. MLH> On the other hand: The project does not seem as "live" as it MLH> did to me originally. I guess one of the reasons I'm still MLH> motivated to work on it is guilt about the sort of issues MLH> raised by our complaining would-be user here. Not sure MLH> whether getting a release will really help anyone there, MLH> though. >> and you all got my reasons as to why I think it has, as to why >> it has none of my current attention. MLH> Right. >> What you did not get was what a pleasure and an honour it was >> to participate with you all on the bits that did work. I >> learned a ton! I now know exactly why weakrefs work, and use >> them in my work all the time. MLH> Thanks! I've learned a lot too. (Among other things, I've MLH> used a very explicit disclaimer about future support in MLH> describing my Atox project, in the hope that I won't get into MLH> a situation like this again.) >> to hell with this moron. MLH> BTW, I wonderd a bit about what position this Sheltchin MLH> person had in the Open Source community, and all I could find MLH> was this: MLH> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9768868~mode=flat MLH> Basically a complaint about some changes made by his ISP. The MLH> last sentence was quite enlightening: MLH> So after loosing a day of work notifying my customers that MLH> there may be a problem, wasting time with them on the phone MLH> as they routed me through all of the people who didn't MLH> understand, and opening other email accounts with another MLH> ISP - I am reduced to writing hate mail since they don't MLH> give a darn. MLH> So writing hate mail seems to be a legitimate course of MLH> action to him. Oh, well. >> creativity is best fostered in environments where it can take >> the risk of failing. MLH> Indeed. >> being pleasurable to the peanut gallery, and being admired, is >> of secondary importance. MLH> I guess soo. But some of us (i.e. me) are, perhaps, a bit too MLH> hung up on being liked -- or at least not being strongly MLH> disliked. But this is all a learning experience, I suppose. >> Laura MLH> -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small MLH> price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the MLH> free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 10:39:15
|
Robin Becker <ro...@re...>: > > I suppose we could always send the disgruntled user off to > comp.lang.perl for a good roasting. > > The python lists are generally pretty well behaved and polite. Yeah, that's one of the things I've liked about the Python community from the beginning. [snip] > As for anygui, I guess it hasn't been a success, but of the n 000 > open source projects how many are? Not that many, I suppose (percentage-wise). I guess this is basically the same as Laura has been saying, but I have a similar philosophy about why academia is (and should be) the way it is, with lots of people getting payed to play around with their ideas, and with little control over what they're actually working with. IMO, it has to be this way, because you must cast the net wide to get at the gold nuggets (to mix some metaphors). And, of course, it is possible for people to build on the unfinished ideas of others, too. (For example, even though we never really got Piddle off the ground, it did, IIRC, serve as some sort of a starting-point for ReportLab?) > Certainly trying to do an abstract gui framework is much harder than > a specific one. Then add on all the back ends. Probably most > pythoneers are too nice to be good project leaders. I don't > begrudge any of the effort nor would I in future. Keep trying :) :) -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Robin B. <ro...@re...> - 2004-04-10 09:35:00
|
I suppose we could always send the disgruntled user off to comp.lang.perl for a good roasting. The python lists are generally pretty well behaved and polite. A sly dig here and there is all I can usually manage or get. The recent kerfuffle over top posting seems quite bizarre to me. Any sign of weakness on comp.lang.javascript gets a snobby read the faq etc etc. I theorize that having a completely ill specified and pretty hopeless development target makes javascripters angry all the time. As for anygui, I guess it hasn't been a success, but of the n 000 open source projects how many are? Certainly trying to do an abstract gui framework is much harder than a specific one. Then add on all the back ends. Probably most pythoneers are too nice to be good project leaders. I don't begrudge any of the effort nor would I in future. Keep trying :) -- Robin Becker |
From: Laura C. <la...@st...> - 2004-04-10 01:43:16
|
In a message of Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:51:18 +0200, Magnus Lie Hetland writes: >Laura Creighton <la...@st...>: >> >Thanks! I've learned a lot too. (Among other things, I've used a very >explicit disclaimer about future support in describing my Atox >project, in the hope that I won't get into a situation like this >again.) > >> to hell with this moron. > >BTW, I wonderd a bit about what position this Sheltchin person had in >the Open Source community, and all I could find was this: > > http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9768868~mode=flat > >Basically a complaint about some changes made by his ISP. The last >sentence was quite enlightening: > > So after loosing a day of work notifying my customers that there may > be a problem, wasting time with them on the phone as they routed me > through all of the people who didn't understand, and opening other > email accounts with another ISP - I am reduced to writing hate mail > since they don't give a darn. > >So writing hate mail seems to be a legitimate course of action to him. >Oh, well. > >> creativity is best fostered in environments where it can take the risk >> of failing. > >Indeed. > >> being pleasurable to the peanut gallery, and being admired, is of >> secondary importance. > >I guess soo. But some of us (i.e. me) are, perhaps, a bit too hung up >on being liked -- or at least not being strongly disliked. But this is >all a learning experience, I suppose. > >> Laura > >-- >Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay >http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns > > Magnus, I think, like the majority, you like to be liked. But you are creative. and creativity _is_ change. and most people dislike change, or thrash in a love-hate relationship to change. you will never get the liking you desire, because just by being alive you change people's lives more than they are comfortable with. and you raise expections, double damn you, because you have cool dreams. I have a similar problem. but i fixed mine by not actually giving a damn about the opinions of non-creative people. I mean, they are human beings, and I care about them, but they might as well be small yappy dogs for all that their opinions matter to me. but the opinions of anybody who has created a thing, or better, tried to, failed, and rebuilt out of the ashes of the past failure? those people I care about, a ton. I live my life in part with the goal of making life easier for such people. I badly want a world where you do not feel guilty for trying, where only success counts. Laura, about to go play the flute now, to no professional standard, but just for fun. and why not. why must programming be always professional and never fun? for me, creating programs is fun, and if your expectations were too wide, well, then go learn patentice or Python and go code something. |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 00:08:22
|
Terry Hancock <ha...@an...>: > [snip] > Wow, that was pretty toxic. Yeah, wasn't it? > I do hope no one confuses that "terry" with me. ;-) Not at all -- not me, at least :) > Cheers, > Terry -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-10 00:05:17
|
Terry Hancock <ha...@an...>: > > On Friday 09 April 2004 04:33 pm, Laura Creighton wrote: > > From: terry <she...@ci...> > > >To: mag...@he... > > >Subject: Anygui > > >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 > > > > > >So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it > > >simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? > > > How most 'american' is this whining. > > Hey! Does this have to get nationalist? *I* don't think either > behavior would be particularly "American". :-/ I'm sure Laura was just showing how meaningless the original characterization was -- or something...? (But then again, who knows ;) Related stereotypes, and all that... > I know my country hasn't exactly been "winning friends and > influencing people" lately, but really. Sure. BTW, my new (and probably temporary ;) signature has nothing to do with this -- I just heard Burns say this on The Simpsons, and found the quote priceless :-] > I'm sorry you get mail like that, Magnus -- I hope it doesn't > discourage you. Sadly, it does. Very much. But hopefully, only temporarily. (As some of you may have noticed, I've actually managed to get out another release of Atox today, so...) > It's really stupid that people think they have a right to benefit > from others' free labor -- so much that they can insult and abuse > people if they don't see the end result. Yeah. But on the other hand, I think it's useful to be aware of the dangers of being too overconfident when starting a project too -- that is, the danger of misleading people. Giving the impression that a project is more solid or mature than it really is. Taking it slow and whatnot. On the other hand: I remember that when I got a Unix (and -- indirectly -- Internet) account at my university, I actually had to read some netiquette documents and signt a paper to the effect that I had read them (such as the Shapiro paper mentioned on my Netiquette page [1] -- I wish more people would at least glance at this sort of thing). IIRC there were some admonitions in there (or maybe I picked that up later, somewhere) to not assume that anyone owed you anything. I guess believing this (the "freerider spirit") is quite an easy trap. > And if anigui hasn't come together fast enough, it's as much because > of those of us who are being lame-assed slow about doing our bit. Heh. I think there are several reasons. Here are two I think have been quite important: 1. The Second System Illness. Pretty standard, I guess. Being too ambitious after learning ones lessons from the first incarnation. If we had been less ambitious, or somehow been able to do the rewrite/refactoring stepwise, keeping a working system all the way, we might have had a working second release before enthusiasm petered out. Then it would have been easier to maintain the system (and maybe the enthusiasm?) 2. The lack of easy/automated testing. This would have let each one of us do much more work, and, more importantly, to do more work on our own. For example, the main reason I haven't just hunted down all the bugs I could find and released 0.2 is that testing all back-ends on multiple platforms is more than a handful for a single person. Both useful lessons. Not sure exactly how we could have gotten around the testing bit, though. > For which I apologize, BTW. :blush: :) If you're anything like me, deadlines and nagging may be necessary, at least for the more boring parts (that also have to be done). Because of my focus on my Ph.D thesis, I haven't been able to do that (*or* do any serious development of my own). > Did you actually know this guy? Or was this just a random troll? Just a random troll, out of the blue. > Also -- I always assumed Magnus was European. *Is* he American? I'm Norwegian, actually. (And I don't drink -- so the stuff about enjoying my brew by the canals didn't really fit too well either... Oh, well. We do have a river near where I live, and I'm sure there are non-alcoholic brews I can enjoy. :) > Cheers, > Terry [1] http://hetland.org/netiquette -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Laura C. <la...@st...> - 2004-04-09 23:53:49
|
In a message of Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:54:18 CDT, Terry Hancock writes: >On Friday 09 April 2004 04:33 pm, Laura Creighton wrote: >> From: terry <she...@ci...> >> >To: mag...@he... >> >Subject: Anygui >> >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 >> > >> >So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it >> >simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? > >> How most 'american' is this whining. > >Hey! Does this have to get nationalist? *I* don't think either >behavior would be particularly "American". :-/ sorry Terry. 'he started it' seems a poor excuse .... > >I know my country hasn't exactly been "winning friends and >influencing people" lately, but really. I think you guys are still influencing people to the max .... (wave at terryu wearing a silly hat) > >I'm sorry you get mail like that, Magnus -- I hope it doesn't >discourage you. It's really stupid that people think they have >a right to benefit from others' free labor -- so much that they >can insult and abuse people if they don't see the end result. > >And if anigui hasn't come together fast enough, it's as much >because of those of us who are being lame-assed slow about >doing our bit. For which I apologize, BTW. :blush: > >Did you actually know this guy? Or was this just a random troll? > >Also -- I always assumed Magnus was European. *Is* he American? Norway. where 'apppearing american' is a major insult, like here in Sweden. We don't mind so much when Americans act like Americans, 'tis your right and perogative. But when we catch ourselves doing it, it means that we lost our soul, and bought one from walt disney. which magnus, contrary to insult, has most definitely not. nor has anybody else who is building a practical, space colony now, build-the-bits-we-can-now, and define-the-problem-we-cannot, space effort. I mean, when people insult others by comparing them to Americans, you are not the American thety are thinking of. There is just the 'ugly american, buys his way to stature he not to earn, bully, all promise no substance' thing that you need to understand to understand europe. we've been bullied a long time, resentment is natural. but -- a working space colony? that's a cool idea that transcends nationalism, or economic block partitioning. > >Cheers, >Terry > >-- >Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) >Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-09 23:51:34
|
Laura Creighton <la...@st...>: > [snip] > MLH, what you have demonstrated, at worst-best is the courage to > fail. Or just youthful exuberance and enthusiasm... or something ;) > You think that this is a still live project, and I think that it has > failed, Well... I think it deserves the necessary work to get a 0.2 release out the door -- all the work that went into the new architecture ought to be able to crawl out of CVS. On the other hand: The project does not seem as "live" as it did to me originally. I guess one of the reasons I'm still motivated to work on it is guilt about the sort of issues raised by our complaining would-be user here. Not sure whether getting a release will really help anyone there, though. > and you all got my reasons as to why I think it has, as to why it > has none of my current attention. Right. > What you did not get was what a pleasure and an honour it was to > participate with you all on the bits that did work. I learned a ton! > I now know exactly why weakrefs work, and use them in my work all the > time. Thanks! I've learned a lot too. (Among other things, I've used a very explicit disclaimer about future support in describing my Atox project, in the hope that I won't get into a situation like this again.) > to hell with this moron. BTW, I wonderd a bit about what position this Sheltchin person had in the Open Source community, and all I could find was this: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9768868~mode=flat Basically a complaint about some changes made by his ISP. The last sentence was quite enlightening: So after loosing a day of work notifying my customers that there may be a problem, wasting time with them on the phone as they routed me through all of the people who didn't understand, and opening other email accounts with another ISP - I am reduced to writing hate mail since they don't give a darn. So writing hate mail seems to be a legitimate course of action to him. Oh, well. > creativity is best fostered in environments where it can take the risk > of failing. Indeed. > being pleasurable to the peanut gallery, and being admired, is of > secondary importance. I guess soo. But some of us (i.e. me) are, perhaps, a bit too hung up on being liked -- or at least not being strongly disliked. But this is all a learning experience, I suppose. > Laura -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Terry H. <ha...@an...> - 2004-04-09 22:40:27
|
On Friday 09 April 2004 04:33 pm, Laura Creighton wrote: > From: terry <she...@ci...> > >To: mag...@he... > >Subject: Anygui > >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 > > > >So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it > >simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? > How most 'american' is this whining. Hey! Does this have to get nationalist? *I* don't think either behavior would be particularly "American". :-/ I know my country hasn't exactly been "winning friends and influencing people" lately, but really. I'm sorry you get mail like that, Magnus -- I hope it doesn't discourage you. It's really stupid that people think they have a right to benefit from others' free labor -- so much that they can insult and abuse people if they don't see the end result. And if anigui hasn't come together fast enough, it's as much because of those of us who are being lame-assed slow about doing our bit. For which I apologize, BTW. :blush: Did you actually know this guy? Or was this just a random troll? Also -- I always assumed Magnus was European. *Is* he American? Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com |
From: Terry H. <ha...@an...> - 2004-04-09 22:30:37
|
On Friday 09 April 2004 04:03 pm, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote: > Thought this might interest some of you. I asked the sender to object > if he didn't want me to post his message here -- I haven't heard any > objections, so here you are. > > ----- Forwarded message from terry <she...@ci...> ----- > > From: terry <she...@ci...> > To: mag...@he... > Subject: Anygui > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 > > So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it > simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? [...] Wow, that was pretty toxic. I do hope no one confuses that "terry" with me. ;-) Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com |
From: Laura C. <la...@st...> - 2004-04-09 21:33:34
|
In a message of Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:03:19 +0200, Magnus Lie Hetland writes: >Thought this might interest some of you. I asked the sender to object >if he didn't want me to post his message here -- I haven't heard any >objections, so here you are. > >----- Forwarded message from terry <she...@ci...> ----- > >From: terry <she...@ci...> >To: mag...@he... >Subject: Anygui >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 > >So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it >simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? > >I followed it for over a year hoping that someting substantive would >result - but all that happened was the typical intellectual exercise >that serve the originator and no one else. You should be condemmend and >ostrisized by the Linux world for your pathetic intrusion. You wasted a >lot of my time and those of others so that you could profit from it - >how typically American were you deeds. I hope you have a relaxing time >along the canals, sipping your brew knowing that you enlisted others in >your cause when you were totally incapable, nor desirous, of any follow >through. > >I hope you have no intensions of 'contributing' to the Linux community - >it will be better off without half-assed efforts such as yours! > >terry > >----- End forwarded message ----- > >-- >Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay >http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click How most 'american' is this whining. 'I didn't get the results I wanted, therefore, the learning that we all did was not valuable. you wasted my most sacred time on a result i did not profit by' 'success is all that matters' 'oh how i hope to shame you by saying you are worthless, because worthless to me, is the same thing as worthless to anybody' MLH, what you have demonstrated, at worst-best is the courage to fail. You think that this is a still live project, and I think that it has failed, and you all got my reasons as to why I think it has, as to why it has none of my current attention. What you did not get was what a pleasure and an honour it was to participate with you all on the bits that did work. I learned a ton! I now know exactly why weakrefs work, and use them in my work all the time. to hell with this moron. creativity is best fostered in environments where it can take the risk of failing. being pleasurable to the peanut gallery, and being admired, is of secondary importance. Laura |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-04-09 21:03:27
|
Thought this might interest some of you. I asked the sender to object if he didn't want me to post his message here -- I haven't heard any objections, so here you are. ----- Forwarded message from terry <she...@ci...> ----- From: terry <she...@ci...> To: mag...@he... Subject: Anygui Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:56:58 -0400 So Magnus, did Anygui serve the Linux community in any way or was it simply a self-serving effort to enhance your book/thesis? I followed it for over a year hoping that someting substantive would result - but all that happened was the typical intellectual exercise that serve the originator and no one else. You should be condemmend and ostrisized by the Linux world for your pathetic intrusion. You wasted a lot of my time and those of others so that you could profit from it - how typically American were you deeds. I hope you have a relaxing time along the canals, sipping your brew knowing that you enlisted others in your cause when you were totally incapable, nor desirous, of any follow through. I hope you have no intensions of 'contributing' to the Linux community - it will be better off without half-assed efforts such as yours! terry ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Magnus Lie Hetland "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay http://hetland.org to live in the land of the free." -- C. M. Burns |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-03-30 16:38:24
|
Joe Knapka <jk...@kn...>: > Hi, Joe! > Magnus Lie Hetland <ma...@he...> writes: [snip] > > so the remaining ones are cursesgui, textgui and > > gtkgui. (gtkgui actually sort of works.) > > Well, on my resume I claim to be the author and mainainer of cursesgui > and textgui, so I probably ought to actually do that. :) > I've no idea which direction the Anygui codebase has gone in the > past year or so Basically none. Not much has happened at all, sadly. One change, though: You have to subscribe to the list to post -- otherwise I have to manually accept your postings. (In other words, you have be subscribed with your sender-address.) > (by the way, "Hi again, everyone"), Hi :-) > so it might take me a little while to get current again. IIRC, I got > frustrated with some aspect of forward-porting the textgui/cursesgui > code to the "latest" (as of early 2003) Anygui architecture, but I > really have no idea what was happening back then. I'll let you know > when I've got a handle on it. I'll step up to whack bugs in Tkgui > as well, if no one else wants to. Excellent. > -- Joe -- Magnus Lie Hetland "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, http://hetland.org but a fire to be lighted." [Plutarch] |
From: Joe K. <jk...@kn...> - 2004-03-26 22:01:50
|
Magnus Lie Hetland <ma...@he...> writes: > My focus on the "big five" back-ends (I'm just assuming they're the > "biggest" -- no offense meant to the others) doesn't mean that I don't > want the others in Anygui, of course. I'm just trying to set realistic > goals. > > So: If there are people out there who want to work on other back-ends > (Kalle -- do you feel gtkgui beckoning? ;) then that would be nice. > The main point is that if we *don't* get the others done, that > shouldn't hold us back from releasing. > > beosgui is pretty much dead in the water now, as Matt doesn't have a > beos machine anymore, so the remaining ones are cursesgui, textgui and > gtkgui. (gtkgui actually sort of works.) Well, on my resume I claim to be the author and mainainer of cursesgui and textgui, so I probably ought to actually do that. I've no idea which direction the Anygui codebase has gone in the past year or so (by the way, "Hi again, everyone"), so it might take me a little while to get current again. IIRC, I got frustrated with some aspect of forward-porting the textgui/cursesgui code to the "latest" (as of early 2003) Anygui architecture, but I really have no idea what was happening back then. I'll let you know when I've got a handle on it. I'll step up to whack bugs in Tkgui as well, if no one else wants to. -- Joe -- Resist the feed. -- If you really want to get my attention, send mail to jknapka .at. kneuro .dot. net. |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-03-21 21:51:56
|
Just had a look at tkgui. The only problem with test_frame seemed to be the sunken border (which e.g. wxgui doesn't have), so I commented that out. (An optional feature, perhaps?) I also rechecked test_place, and couldn't find anything wrong. So, as far as I can see, tkgui and wxgui are basically good to go. Any progress on the the testing of the other back-ends? -- Magnus Lie Hetland "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, http://hetland.org but a fire to be lighted." [Plutarch] |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-03-01 00:17:30
|
Sascha Silbe <sas...@si...>: > > Hi! > > It seems like one of the biggest (largest bug count) and most annoying > problems currently is about text size. > Widgets containing text (like Buttons and Labels) are given fixed sizes. Right. > They are neither sized according to the size of the actual content upon > init nor upon change of content. Well, you may certainly view that as flawed behavior, but it is the way the current layout works. In other words, this is according to spec, and not a bug (if I understand you correctly). We have discussed adding such information as miminum size to components (which will be calculated from text) and to base some layout managers on that, but that should be considered a future feature rather than a bug fix right now. (I think it's a bit ambitious for that.) This is actually in the TODO.txt file (see "shrink-wrapping"), although I'm not sure the versioning there (0.2a3) will be correct. -- Magnus Lie Hetland "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, http://hetland.org but a fire to be lighted." [Plutarch] |
From: Greg E. <gr...@co...> - 2004-02-29 23:51:26
|
Matthew Schinckel <ma...@nu...>: > I don't like they way Apple use Deutschesprechen (combining words with > stuff, like kCGLineCapRound), it doesn't look pythonic to me... Apple are handicapped by having a single global namespace in C and Objective-C. The MacPython interfaces seem to have been generated mostly automatically from the C header files, and so have inherited all the naming conventions. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | gr...@co... +--------------------------------------+ |
From: Terry H. <ha...@an...> - 2004-02-25 19:58:00
|
On Thursday 19 February 2004 05:32 pm, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote: > Here is my suggested allocation (for this release): >=20 > wx: Magnus (already works -- just verification) > msw: Matt > qt: Alex, Fabio > tk: Magnus > java: Terry >=20 > I just boldly added Terry here, since he seemed to be interested in > the Python/Jython-crossover potential for Anygui. No promises about speed, but yes I am, and I will try to work in some time to install and test when I get a break in my current project. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com |
From: Magnus L. H. <ma...@he...> - 2004-02-25 14:59:46
|
Sascha Silbe <sas...@si...>: > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2004 at 07:33:00PM +0100, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote: > > >OK -- sorry to be unclear. As far as I can see, there are two > >different issues here: (1) testing that things look OK (and work OK) > >on different platforms, and (2) testing that things work at all (i.e. > >that the APIs, e.g. the wx API, are being used correctly). > (2) == works (at least) on a single platform > OK, now I do understand. > > I have discovered quite a pile of bugs for {'backends': [gtk, qt, tk, > wx], 'os': Linux, 'windowManagers': [ion, icewm]}. > Where and how should I report them? Until now we've just used a the mailing list and the know bugs file -- I think this is probably the time to start use something better. I suggest that you report them in the SourceForge bug tracker. There are actually a few bugs there already, since I never actually hid the tracker. > I'll probably fix some of them myself, but I think we should document > them somewhere first, so we can (sometime in the - not so near :) - > future) add regression tests for them. Indeed. I think the SourceForge bug tracker is probably a good way to go here. Do you agree? If you have any tips about categories that should be added (I guess version might be useful to have?) then just speak up. I guess the bugs that are still relevant in the known bugs file should be transferred too. As for regression tests: It would, of course, be very useful if you could add a snippet of code that would demonstrate the problem to the bug report. > CU Sascha -- Magnus Lie Hetland "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, http://hetland.org but a fire to be lighted." [Plutarch] |