amforth-devel

[Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi all,

there seems to go something wrong with the mailing list,
so I forward a message to it. Can someone help Carl?

Matthias

     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
     From: Carl Baxter <car...@gm... <mailto:car...@gm...>>
     To: amf...@li...
     <mailto:amf...@li...>
     Cc:
     Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:50:20 -0700
     Subject: Native Forth for Arduino Uno
       I am developing a project using an Arduino Uno board and
       their c/c++ language.  It would be more productive for
       me to be doing this in Forth but the project deadline keeps
       me from stopping work, getting the necessary tools and
       learning how to put amForth on the board.

       Is there some source of a programmed Forth chip that I could
       just install and be up and running.  I would think
       there would be a market for such an item.  It seems to me that when
     someone has already programmed one chip for the Arduino Uno he has
     solved the
     problem for everybody.

     If no one is making a market in programmed Forth chips, I would be
     willing to buy 50 if I had to and try to promote them.  The way it is
     being done now is very off-putting to people who would just like to
     try Forth,

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

Hi Carl, hi all,

On 07/20/2013 03:30 PM, Matthias Trute wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> there seems to go something wrong with the mailing list,
> so I forward a message to it. Can someone help Carl?
> 
> Matthias
> 
>      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>      From: Carl Baxter <car...@gm... <mailto:car...@gm...>>
>      To: amf...@li...
>      <mailto:amf...@li...>
>      Cc:
>      Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:50:20 -0700
>      Subject: Native Forth for Arduino Uno
>        I am developing a project using an Arduino Uno board and
>        their c/c++ language.  It would be more productive for
>        me to be doing this in Forth but the project deadline keeps
>        me from stopping work, getting the necessary tools and
>        learning how to put amForth on the board.
> 
>        Is there some source of a programmed Forth chip that I could
>        just install and be up and running.

Not that I know of.

>  I would think
>        there would be a market for such an item.  It seems to me that when
>      someone has already programmed one chip for the Arduino Uno he has
>      solved the
>      problem for everybody.


Sounds easy, but isn't. I (or Matthias or *someone*) could provide
.hex files and the problem seems solved. Someone else could preprogramm
arduino to forthuinos and ship them, at hopefully modest cost.
However, it isn't easy.

a. How to flash the arduino?

   amForth and the arduino bootloader programm are mutually exclusive.
   
   + could the bootloader be fixed to export an API to (i!) (the function
     to write a word to flash)? Probably so, however, this code is under
     someone elses control. This someone else has no incentive to do and
     maintain these changes, so this is a dead end imho.

   + could amForth be changed into a "sketch" such that it loads with said
     bootloader? Probably so, however, its less clear that the result is
     something you can or want to use "standalone" without the arduino
     bootloader.

   The "obvious" solution to this problem is knowing how to assemble the
   relevant .hex files and having a usable programmer to flash the arduino.
   This is imho a bigger hurdle to a beginner (of Forth *and* microcontrollers
   at the same time).

b. How to recover a bricked arduino?

   amForth puts little in the way between the programmer and the controller.
   In other words you are entirely able to change some important byte in
   flash or eeprom, and then your controller may be dead. Dead as in "it
   is not talking to me any more".

   To recover this situation, you are back to solving point a.

   You can try to make amForth unbrickable. Again, whether these changes are
   desirable is not clear.

c. Trying out amForth

   A colleage of mine and I have given several workshops to interested folks
   in the past:
   + up to 20 people, 1 board for 2 people
   + approx. 3 hours time (which is short) up to 8 hours.
   + we hand out preflashed arduinos with danger shields (they have LEDS
     and a buzzer among other stuff)
   + never underestimate the time it takes until everyone has a working
     serial connection!
   + The preloaded system has already loaded bitnames.frt and a handful
     of other libs.
   + we then guide the folks through making a morse code emitter.
   This is great fun. But we always need to reprogram one or more boards
   due to "bricking is easy"

   So this opens another route: can amForth be made "always recoverable".
   Probably yes, but again: it is not clear, whether the result pleases
   me or anyone else not using arduinos. Several pieces to make amForth
   recoverable have been discussed in the mailing list or presented as
   Examples in (Vierte Dimension, german only, found at www.forth-ev.de).
   It doesn't make amForth any simpler internally.

   I should mention that we had lengthy discussions about which
   board to use. I personally prefer other boards over the arduino. However,
   they are so well known and easy to get that we eventually went with them.


d. What exactly should the preprogrammed arduino have?

   I *always* need to add my favourite stuff to the plain vanilla
   amForth build. For example: I *HATE* case insensitivity. FOO is
   not Foo is not foo, imho. Therefore I will always set
     .set WANT_IGNORECASE = 0
   whereas the default is 1. We haven't programmed a single line yet,
   but we already have to make a decision. Along the same line of
   argument, which of these should be included by default?

   .include "dict_wl.inc"
   .include "words/fill.asm"
   .include "words/1ms.asm"
   .include "words/notequalzero.asm"
   .include "words/uzerodotr.asm"
   .include "words/udotr.asm"
   ;.include "words/no-jtag.asm"
   .include "words/spirw.asm"
   .include "words/2spirw.asm"

   Now, what exactly should be on a preprogrammed board? And does one size
   fit them all? Probably not.

   I firmly believe that teaching people to use amForth includes the toolchain
   to recover a bricked board. If I send them home without that, they will hate
   me very soon, and very understandably so.


   I'm not saying that solving the original problem is impossible, but I'm
   probably not much help in doing so. Writing more libraries may help. That's
   why some of my code can be found in
   svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/amforth/code/applications/ewlib
   Use at your own risk.


>      If no one is making a market in programmed Forth chips, I would be
>      willing to buy 50 if I had to and try to promote them.  The way it is
>      being done now is very off-putting to people who would just like to
>      try Forth,

And then there is always the option to use gforth on your PC. Forth is not
limited to microcontrollers. But trying out microcontrollers for the first
or second time together with trying out Forth may be a fairly big pile.


Cheers,
Erich, not being of much help this time.

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[<car...@sp...>]

Erich,

Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to admit
that we have different goals or that I don't understand
the problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand, but
I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution
which uses the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to
recover its original operation.

I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed from
the board and replaced with another 328P
already programed for AmForth.  Nothing has been done to the original 328P
and the user could install it again anytime he desired.

As far as options, I would be glad to have any system that in general
followed Leo Brodie's "Starting Forth" as much as AmForth
would allow.  I used to use Forth quite extensively to modify the operation
of photocopiers to control individual subsystems for special testing.
 I would much rather be using Forth in developing my current device than
using "c".

I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed Forth
chip.
I would think bootloader considerations would go away under these
circumstances.

Regards,

Carl






On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Erich Waelde <ew....@na...> wrote:

> * Replies will be sent through Spamex to
> amf...@li...
> * For additional info click -> http://www.spamex.com/i/?v=79288160
>
> Hi Carl, hi all,
>
> On 07/20/2013 03:30 PM, Matthias Trute wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > there seems to go something wrong with the mailing list,
> > so I forward a message to it. Can someone help Carl?
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> >      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >      From: Carl Baxter <car...@sp... <mailto:car...@sp...>>
> >      To: amf...@li...
> >      <mailto:amf...@li...>
> >      Cc:
> >      Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:50:20 -0700
> >      Subject: Native Forth for Arduino Uno
> >        I am developing a project using an Arduino Uno board and
> >        their c/c++ language.  It would be more productive for
> >        me to be doing this in Forth but the project deadline keeps
> >        me from stopping work, getting the necessary tools and
> >        learning how to put amForth on the board.
> >
> >        Is there some source of a programmed Forth chip that I could
> >        just install and be up and running.
>
> Not that I know of.
>
> >  I would think
> >        there would be a market for such an item.  It seems to me that
> when
> >      someone has already programmed one chip for the Arduino Uno he has
> >      solved the
> >      problem for everybody.
>
>
> Sounds easy, but isn't. I (or Matthias or *someone*) could provide
> .hex files and the problem seems solved. Someone else could preprogramm
> arduino to forthuinos and ship them, at hopefully modest cost.
> However, it isn't easy.
>
> a. How to flash the arduino?
>
>    amForth and the arduino bootloader programm are mutually exclusive.
>
>    + could the bootloader be fixed to export an API to (i!) (the function
>      to write a word to flash)? Probably so, however, this code is under
>      someone elses control. This someone else has no incentive to do and
>      maintain these changes, so this is a dead end imho.
>
>    + could amForth be changed into a "sketch" such that it loads with said
>      bootloader? Probably so, however, its less clear that the result is
>      something you can or want to use "standalone" without the arduino
>      bootloader.
>
>    The "obvious" solution to this problem is knowing how to assemble the
>    relevant .hex files and having a usable programmer to flash the arduino.
>    This is imho a bigger hurdle to a beginner (of Forth *and*
> microcontrollers
>    at the same time).
>
> b. How to recover a bricked arduino?
>
>    amForth puts little in the way between the programmer and the
> controller.
>    In other words you are entirely able to change some important byte in
>    flash or eeprom, and then your controller may be dead. Dead as in "it
>    is not talking to me any more".
>
>    To recover this situation, you are back to solving point a.
>
>    You can try to make amForth unbrickable. Again, whether these changes
> are
>    desirable is not clear.
>
> c. Trying out amForth
>
>    A colleage of mine and I have given several workshops to interested
> folks
>    in the past:
>    + up to 20 people, 1 board for 2 people
>    + approx. 3 hours time (which is short) up to 8 hours.
>    + we hand out preflashed arduinos with danger shields (they have LEDS
>      and a buzzer among other stuff)
>    + never underestimate the time it takes until everyone has a working
>      serial connection!
>    + The preloaded system has already loaded bitnames.frt and a handful
>      of other libs.
>    + we then guide the folks through making a morse code emitter.
>    This is great fun. But we always need to reprogram one or more boards
>    due to "bricking is easy"
>
>    So this opens another route: can amForth be made "always recoverable".
>    Probably yes, but again: it is not clear, whether the result pleases
>    me or anyone else not using arduinos. Several pieces to make amForth
>    recoverable have been discussed in the mailing list or presented as
>    Examples in (Vierte Dimension, german only, found at www.forth-ev.de).
>    It doesn't make amForth any simpler internally.
>
>    I should mention that we had lengthy discussions about which
>    board to use. I personally prefer other boards over the arduino.
> However,
>    they are so well known and easy to get that we eventually went with
> them.
>
>
> d. What exactly should the preprogrammed arduino have?
>
>    I *always* need to add my favourite stuff to the plain vanilla
>    amForth build. For example: I *HATE* case insensitivity. FOO is
>    not Foo is not foo, imho. Therefore I will always set
>      .set WANT_IGNORECASE = 0
>    whereas the default is 1. We haven't programmed a single line yet,
>    but we already have to make a decision. Along the same line of
>    argument, which of these should be included by default?
>
>    .include "dict_wl.inc"
>    .include "words/fill.asm"
>    .include "words/1ms.asm"
>    .include "words/notequalzero.asm"
>    .include "words/uzerodotr.asm"
>    .include "words/udotr.asm"
>    ;.include "words/no-jtag.asm"
>    .include "words/spirw.asm"
>    .include "words/2spirw.asm"
>
>    Now, what exactly should be on a preprogrammed board? And does one size
>    fit them all? Probably not.
>
>    I firmly believe that teaching people to use amForth includes the
> toolchain
>    to recover a bricked board. If I send them home without that, they will
> hate
>    me very soon, and very understandably so.
>
>
>    I'm not saying that solving the original problem is impossible, but I'm
>    probably not much help in doing so. Writing more libraries may help.
> That's
>    why some of my code can be found in
>    svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/amforth/code/applications/ewlib
>    Use at your own risk.
>
>
> >      If no one is making a market in programmed Forth chips, I would be
> >      willing to buy 50 if I had to and try to promote them.  The way it
> is
> >      being done now is very off-putting to people who would just like to
> >      try Forth,
>
> And then there is always the option to use gforth on your PC. Forth is not
> limited to microcontrollers. But trying out microcontrollers for the first
> or second time together with trying out Forth may be a fairly big pile.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Erich, not being of much help this time.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
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> _______________________________________________
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> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

Hello Carl,

the mailing list is working :-)
Thanks for your reply.

On 07/21/2013 12:02 AM, car...@sp... wrote:
> Erich,
> 
> Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to admit
> that we have different goals or that I don't understand
> the problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand, but
> I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution
> which uses the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to
> recover its original operation.
Correct.

> I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed from
> the board and replaced with another 328P
> already programed for AmForth.  Nothing has been done to the original 328P
> and the user could install it again anytime he desired.

Ah, I see.
There are socketed versions of the duemilanove board, I have one of those.
But smd chips seem to be much more common, as fas as I can tell.

> As far as options, I would be glad to have any system that in general
> followed Leo Brodie's "Starting Forth" as much as AmForth
> would allow.  I used to use Forth quite extensively to modify the operation
> of photocopiers to control individual subsystems for special testing.
>  I would much rather be using Forth in developing my current device than
> using "c".
> 
> I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
> removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed Forth
> chip.

Ok, so you have a socketed chip, fine. You have say 5 more chips with
amForth preprogrammed. So you can work happily and errors will brick
them. If you send them back to the person who programmed them in the first
place, fine. However: After two rounds or so, you have almost paid for
the programmer that I recommend anyway (40 Eur for a good one).

The Arduino project has put a lot of work into making the whole system
nearly unbrickable. Yet they cater for reprogramming the bootloader,
because it will be needed rather sooner than later.

Apart from "get yourself a programmer" there are other options:

? Is there a hacker space or similar near you? If so, try to get in contact
  and visit them. They can teach you how to reprogramm the arduino, I'm sure.
  They might have one to lend or a do-it-yourself type for a nice tip.

? Do you have colleages/friends who play with microcontrollers? One will
  have such a programmer. And he/she may teach you how to use it.

? Are you involved in some other "social group" (sports, some hobby ...)?
  Did you ask there?

I'm probably just reminding you of the obvious: There are people out there
playing with AVR microcontrollers, and there might be just one around the
corner ...  you could even ask on this list "is someone near $location" :-)


> I would think bootloader considerations would go away under these
> circumstances.
As Matthias said, if you have a programmer, everything is under control.

Cheers,
Erich

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Carl,

> Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to
> admit that we have different goals or that I don't understand the
> problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand,
> but I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution which uses
> the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to recover
> its original operation.

All of my arduino's have SMD chips. I could not replace them, not even
if I would need to.

> I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed
> from the board and replaced with another 328P already programed for
> AmForth.

Since the arduino provide the ISP pins for in place programming (a 2x3
pin header), I see no need to physically replace the chips. All that
differs is software and it can be changed any time. You need
a ISP capable programming device (e.g. another arduino with an
ISP-MK2 sketch or a real programmer like the AVR ISP MK2 from Atmel).

There's no rocket science involved.

> I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
>  removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed
> Forth chip. I would think bootloader considerations would go away
> under these circumstances.

The bootloader can easily re-programmed with the Arduino IDE (there's a
menu option for it). All you need (again) is a programming device. And
after that, your arduino works as nothing has happened at all.

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[<car...@sp...>]

Matthias,

Another post indicated that it was possible (likely) that a 328P with
AmForth might be bricked
during developing a program.  With you 328P being surface mount it sounds
as if that is a
show stopper, depending on how dead the 328P was.

My understanding is that surface mount 328P's were only used when  the DIP
versions were not available.
 I only have one Arduino Uno and it is the DIP version.

I have a project with a deadline and my scarcest resource is time.  Even if
it isn't rocket science I can't
let myself get sidetracked with peripheral activities.

You said,in an earlier post, that the Arduino Uno wouldn't be your first
choice for a SBC for AmForth.  I'm
not locked into the Arduino Uno,  It was available at an attractive price
for this project.  Can your recommend
another SBC that would come up in Forth and be in this general price range?
 I wouldn't mind pausing the
development of my existing Arduino Uno  "c" program and try another board
if it would get me up and running
 in Forth without delay.

I appreciate your input.

Carl










On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> wrote:

> * Replies will be sent through Spamex to
> amf...@li...
> * For additional info click -> http://www.spamex.com/i/?v=79288160
>
> Hi Carl,
>
> > Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to
> > admit that we have different goals or that I don't understand the
> > problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand,
> > but I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution which uses
> > the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to recover
> > its original operation.
>
> All of my arduino's have SMD chips. I could not replace them, not even
> if I would need to.
>
> > I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed
> > from the board and replaced with another 328P already programed for
> > AmForth.
>
> Since the arduino provide the ISP pins for in place programming (a 2x3
> pin header), I see no need to physically replace the chips. All that
> differs is software and it can be changed any time. You need
> a ISP capable programming device (e.g. another arduino with an
> ISP-MK2 sketch or a real programmer like the AVR ISP MK2 from Atmel).
>
> There's no rocket science involved.
>
> > I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
> >  removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed
> > Forth chip. I would think bootloader considerations would go away
> > under these circumstances.
>
> The bootloader can easily re-programmed with the Arduino IDE (there's a
> menu option for it). All you need (again) is a programming device. And
> after that, your arduino works as nothing has happened at all.
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
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> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>

Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[<car...@sp...>]

Erich,

I don't mind the 40 euro for the programmer, but I really don't have the
time to order, wait for delivery, and
get into the programming business.  Perhaps after this project is over that
will look attractive to me.

I do like your suggestion to ask about someone in my locality.  I'm in the
Phoenix, AZ area and would appreciate hearing from anyone near me.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Carl


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Carl Baxter <car...@sp...> wrote:

> Matthias,
>
> Another post indicated that it was possible (likely) that a 328P with
> AmForth might be bricked
> during developing a program.  With you 328P being surface mount it sounds
> as if that is a
> show stopper, depending on how dead the 328P was.
>
> My understanding is that surface mount 328P's were only used when  the DIP
> versions were not available.
>  I only have one Arduino Uno and it is the DIP version.
>
> I have a project with a deadline and my scarcest resource is time.  Even
> if it isn't rocket science I can't
> let myself get sidetracked with peripheral activities.
>
> You said,in an earlier post, that the Arduino Uno wouldn't be your first
> choice for a SBC for AmForth.  I'm
> not locked into the Arduino Uno,  It was available at an attractive price
> for this project.  Can your recommend
> another SBC that would come up in Forth and be in this general price
> range?  I wouldn't mind pausing the
> development of my existing Arduino Uno  "c" program and try another board
> if it would get me up and running
>  in Forth without delay.
>
> I appreciate your input.
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> wrote:
>
>> * Replies will be sent through Spamex to
>> amf...@li...
>> * For additional info click -> http://www.spamex.com/i/?v=79288160
>>
>> Hi Carl,
>>
>> > Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to
>> > admit that we have different goals or that I don't understand the
>> > problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand,
>> > but I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution which uses
>> > the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to recover
>> > its original operation.
>>
>> All of my arduino's have SMD chips. I could not replace them, not even
>> if I would need to.
>>
>> > I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed
>> > from the board and replaced with another 328P already programed for
>> > AmForth.
>>
>> Since the arduino provide the ISP pins for in place programming (a 2x3
>> pin header), I see no need to physically replace the chips. All that
>> differs is software and it can be changed any time. You need
>> a ISP capable programming device (e.g. another arduino with an
>> ISP-MK2 sketch or a real programmer like the AVR ISP MK2 from Atmel).
>>
>> There's no rocket science involved.
>>
>> > I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
>> >  removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed
>> > Forth chip. I would think bootloader considerations would go away
>> > under these circumstances.
>>
>> The bootloader can easily re-programmed with the Arduino IDE (there's a
>> menu option for it). All you need (again) is a programming device. And
>> after that, your arduino works as nothing has happened at all.
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
>> Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
>> Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds.
>> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Mark M. <m.m...@gm...>]

AmForth Pi & Carl's dilemma

Carl's desire to develop in Forth rather than C/C++ (or whatever they do
with Arudino) is something I can identify with.  While I don't mind C,
Forth just works better for me in certain projects.  And I have some legacy
Forth that's nice to re-use. I've built out a hardware toolchain based on
the Raspberry Pi.  Having a linux distro on card makes this a handy IDE for
my Amforth & C microcontroller projects.  It's not much more expensive than
an USB ISP from Atmel.  There's a patch for avrdude to use the Pi's SPI
GPIO pins and there's a nice pair for connecting to the serial port.  I put
all my software on an SD card on my Pi.  I use a USB WiFi and ssh into the
Pi - but there are other options.
Of course - and this is a deal breaker for many  people - you need to know
linux.  But given how popular the Raspberry Pi has become - I'm sure that's
less of a problem.

I've wire wrapped ( not cool now I guess ) a number of boards for the
ATmega328p with female headers to plug onto the Pi's header. I use the 3.3
v supply, serial, SPI,  etc... very nice.

I was considering putting up a small Kickstarter project to design a few
different boards for developing Amforth based microcontroller projects
using the Raspberry Pi as the programmer and "IDE".  I backed one project
on Kickstarter (
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/annikaskywalker/microprocessor-about-the-cost-and-size-of-a-pack-o)
with the idea of plugging an AmForth 328P on it and find something
interesting to do with it. I'm still waiting for my copy of the board.

Unfortunately for Carl, you do need to  re-flash the chip if you find your
forth code does not get you back to the prompt.  It's not "bricked" of
course.  While developing with the Pi, I simply reload my current compiled
Amforth using avrdude and move on (scratching my head as to what I did
wrong!) (Note: I compile my amforth to suit my taste using Studio 4 under
wine.  I  tried using avra but there is a compiler directive syntax
inconsistency that needs to be fixed - haven't gotten to it yet...  my
install of Studio 4 won't compile my C programs (?) so I go with avr-gcc
toolchain)

I'm not sure how many people would be interested... and I would need to
learn a board layout program - but it appeals to me.  It would be nice to
have some ready made boards - wire wrapping gets old in a hurry.

Any thoughts on this idea?


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:39 PM, <car...@sp...> wrote:

> Erich,
>
> I don't mind the 40 euro for the programmer, but I really don't have the
> time to order, wait for delivery, and
> get into the programming business.  Perhaps after this project is over that
> will look attractive to me.
>
> I do like your suggestion to ask about someone in my locality.  I'm in the
> Phoenix, AZ area and would appreciate hearing from anyone near me.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Carl
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Carl Baxter <car...@sp...> wrote:
>
> > Matthias,
> >
> > Another post indicated that it was possible (likely) that a 328P with
> > AmForth might be bricked
> > during developing a program.  With you 328P being surface mount it sounds
> > as if that is a
> > show stopper, depending on how dead the 328P was.
> >
> > My understanding is that surface mount 328P's were only used when  the
> DIP
> > versions were not available.
> >  I only have one Arduino Uno and it is the DIP version.
> >
> > I have a project with a deadline and my scarcest resource is time.  Even
> > if it isn't rocket science I can't
> > let myself get sidetracked with peripheral activities.
> >
> > You said,in an earlier post, that the Arduino Uno wouldn't be your first
> > choice for a SBC for AmForth.  I'm
> > not locked into the Arduino Uno,  It was available at an attractive price
> > for this project.  Can your recommend
> > another SBC that would come up in Forth and be in this general price
> > range?  I wouldn't mind pausing the
> > development of my existing Arduino Uno  "c" program and try another board
> > if it would get me up and running
> >  in Forth without delay.
> >
> > I appreciate your input.
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> wrote:
> >
> >> * Replies will be sent through Spamex to
> >> amf...@li...
> >> * For additional info click -> http://www.spamex.com/i/?v=79288160
> >>
> >> Hi Carl,
> >>
> >> > Thank you for your detailed analysis of the situation.  I have to
> >> > admit that we have different goals or that I don't understand the
> >> > problem.  I'm willing to believe that it's that I don't understand,
> >> > but I get the flavor that you are shooting for a solution which uses
> >> > the actual chip in the Arduino Uno and want to be able to recover
> >> > its original operation.
> >>
> >> All of my arduino's have SMD chips. I could not replace them, not even
> >> if I would need to.
> >>
> >> > I had hoped for a solution where the original ATmega328P is removed
> >> > from the board and replaced with another 328P already programed for
> >> > AmForth.
> >>
> >> Since the arduino provide the ISP pins for in place programming (a 2x3
> >> pin header), I see no need to physically replace the chips. All that
> >> differs is software and it can be changed any time. You need
> >> a ISP capable programming device (e.g. another arduino with an
> >> ISP-MK2 sketch or a real programmer like the AVR ISP MK2 from Atmel).
> >>
> >> There's no rocket science involved.
> >>
> >> > I appreciate your interest and would be pleased to hear your take on
> >> >  removing the existing 328P and replacing it with a pre-programmed
> >> > Forth chip. I would think bootloader considerations would go away
> >> > under these circumstances.
> >>
> >> The bootloader can easily re-programmed with the Arduino IDE (there's a
> >> menu option for it). All you need (again) is a programming device. And
> >> after that, your arduino works as nothing has happened at all.
> >>
> >> Matthias
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno

[Hannu V. <vu...@ms...>]

Hi!

Can't help with this problem, however I've given some thought to Arduino lately
on _native_ forth for Arduino. I haven't had time for try to do it. Anyway I'd
like to share my ideas.

Propably most of AVRs which people have are arduinos. IMHO Amforth should
be more Arduino friendly. This would mean some development

1) Libraries. People are propably familiar with Arduino's libraries so AmForth
should have similar libraries. Even I love bitnames.frt people still want to do
1 12 digital-write etc.

Everyone knows that coming from C to forth is hard. Everything is upside
down and there are so many things to keep in mind. At least to make LED
blink shouldn't be non-understandable.

2) Ready to flash binaries. This is already done. However how many Arduino
users can flash the binaries with the IDE or is it even possible.

3) Arduino sketch for AmForth. Open scetch mystically generate binaries
and flash.

I'm not even sure myself what this means. Maybe my point is to open file
in ArduinoIDE and stuff happens magically.

4) Forth is not for everyone. Arduino bootlader in AmForth. Requires some
development and careful designing so that bootloader could prepare forth
rather minimalistic system or be supressed bootloader only and flash 
Arduino software

Is this even possible? How the non-writable areas go in flash?

Best regards,
Hannu Vuolasaho

> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:30:41 +0200
> From: mt...@we...
> To: amf...@li...
> Subject: [Amforth] Fwd: Native Forth for Arduino Uno
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> there seems to go something wrong with the mailing list,
> so I forward a message to it. Can someone help Carl?
> 
> Matthias
> 
>      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>      From: Carl Baxter <car...@gm... <mailto:car...@gm...>>
>      To: amf...@li...
>      <mailto:amf...@li...>
>      Cc:
>      Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:50:20 -0700
>      Subject: Native Forth for Arduino Uno
>        I am developing a project using an Arduino Uno board and
>        their c/c++ language.  It would be more productive for
>        me to be doing this in Forth but the project deadline keeps
>        me from stopping work, getting the necessary tools and
>        learning how to put amForth on the board.
> 
>        Is there some source of a programmed Forth chip that I could
>        just install and be up and running.  I would think
>        there would be a market for such an item.  It seems to me that when
>      someone has already programmed one chip for the Arduino Uno he has
>      solved the
>      problem for everybody.
> 
>      If no one is making a market in programmed Forth chips, I would be
>      willing to buy 50 if I had to and try to promote them.  The way it is
>      being done now is very off-putting to people who would just like to
>      try Forth,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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