Thread: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case insensitive

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Hi friends,
is there any trick how to make him Case insensitive? There is a lot
of examples with uppercase words, however amforth rejects such
sources..Thanks, Pito.

Hi,

> Hi friends,
> is there any trick how to make him Case insensitive?

amforth is case sensitive, I may change that sometimes,
but now. A quick fix is a simple case converter,
like perl or tr, but I do not know about such tools
for Windows ;=)

PS: the python scripts could do the job as well,
there are python build-in functions to convert
case, but see above not for Windows...

maybe VBS or javascript could be used as well...

Matthias

Matthias,
when you do insist on case sensitivness than do make the forth words
uppercase... There are tons of sw and libraries on the web you
cannot run easily as they are uppercase... Who actually needs case
sensitive forth?? PS: It is interesting how the creators of such
nice sw implementations do insist on something, which an average
user does not understand.. I've tried FlashForth recently (have a
look on it - a lot of ineresting features you may utilise), however
the creator does insist on FOR NEXT instead of DO LOOP. Frankly, I
do not understand that..Pito
----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "Everything around amforth"
<amf...@li...>Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case
Datum: 28.7.2010 - 20:26:22

> Hi,
> 
> > Hi friends,
> > is there any trick how to make him Case
> > insensitive?
> amforth is case sensitive, I may change that
> sometimes,but now. A quick fix is a simple case converter,
> like perl or tr, but I do not know about such
> toolsfor Windows ;=)
> 
> PS: the python scripts could do the job as well,
> there are python build-in functions to convert
> case, but see above not for Windows...
> 
> maybe VBS or javascript could be used as well...
> 
> Matthias
> 

Pito,

> when you do insist on case sensitivness than do make the forth words
> uppercase...

Why do you think I insist on case sensitivness? Case sensitivness
is simpler to implement (take it as an axiom if you do not believe
it). Its very easy do write a converter in any language on the PC 
side, even windows VBS can do that:

Dim upper as String = "converted from lowercase" 
Console.WriteLine(upper.ToUpper())
    Console.WriteLine(UCase(upper))
    Console.WriteLine(StrConv(upper,VbStrConv.UpperCase))

not to mention the many unix tools like tr...

> Who actually needs case sensitive forth?? 

I do and will do so for the next few months, at least.

> PS: It is interesting how the creators of such
> nice sw implementations do insist on something, which an average
> user does not understand.. I've tried FlashForth recently (have a
> look on it - a lot of ineresting features you may utilise), however
> the creator does insist on FOR NEXT instead of DO LOOP. Frankly, I
> do not understand that..

Thats life. And FF is interesting, indeed.

Matthias

PS: If _you_ insist on case insensitivness, feel free to send a 
patch, that I can consider to include into amforth. Thats the way Open
Source Software works and thats the reason why I share amforth with 
other people

Umm I prefer languages and OS's to be case sensitive.

(I guess being a unix/linux type of guy)

In forths case the case sensitivity gives you more scope to create words
that are named meaningfuly.

If you are operating case insensitive you have less combinations
available to you when making words and are more likely to end up naming
your forth functions and subroutines with soemthing that is meaningless.
just because you are running out of options (particularly when trying to
think of a new word name on the fly, without digging out a dictionary).

It's arithmetic really, this is why passwords that use upper and lower
case on case sensitive systems are far more secure. (combinatorial
explosion)

However....

There is perhaps an argument for adopting a case styling convention for
word names that differs from say variable names to help code readability.

What that stylistic convention could be I am not going to get into. It
is a very easy way to promote a mass brawl as firmly held preferences
vary so widely. Casing though is one of many options.

Thoughts for what they are worth...

On 29/07/10 18:16, Matthias Trute wrote:
> Pito,
> 
> 
>> when you do insist on case sensitivness than do make the forth words
>> uppercase...
> 
> Why do you think I insist on case sensitivness? Case sensitivness
> is simpler to implement (take it as an axiom if you do not believe
> it). Its very easy do write a converter in any language on the PC 
> side, even windows VBS can do that:
> 
> Dim upper as String = "converted from lowercase" 
> Console.WriteLine(upper.ToUpper())
>     Console.WriteLine(UCase(upper))
>     Console.WriteLine(StrConv(upper,VbStrConv.UpperCase))
> 
> not to mention the many unix tools like tr...
> 
>> Who actually needs case sensitive forth?? 
> 
> I do and will do so for the next few months, at least.
> 
>> PS: It is interesting how the creators of such
>> nice sw implementations do insist on something, which an average
>> user does not understand.. I've tried FlashForth recently (have a
>> look on it - a lot of ineresting features you may utilise), however
>> the creator does insist on FOR NEXT instead of DO LOOP. Frankly, I
>> do not understand that..
> 
> Thats life. And FF is interesting, indeed.
> 
> 
> Matthias
> 
> PS: If _you_ insist on case insensitivness, feel free to send a 
> patch, that I can consider to include into amforth. Thats the way Open
> Source Software works and thats the reason why I share amforth with 
> other people
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Matthias,
the beauty of the forth implementations like amforth or FF on AVR or
PIC is that you do not need other suits of various supporting tools,
just an editor (e.g. teletype or Palm Treo..). The ucontroller shall
contain everything you need in order to operate it.. This is what
most younger fans may attract to. 
So a switch between case sensitivness and case insensitivness woud
be a great feature, as I wrote thre are tons of various source codes
available. 
I am not an avr asm freak so I am not going to dig into your code.
Moreover you might know the code by heart. There must be a simple
point you handle single char from input stream - when the char c is:

((c >= 65) and (c <= 90)) then c = c + 32 ; 
or something like that..

Pito.

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case
Datum: 29.7.2010 - 19:16:48

> Pito,
> 
> 
> > when you do insist on case sensitivness than do
> > make the forth words
> > > uppercase...
> 
> Why do you think I insist on case sensitivness?
> Case sensitivness
> is simpler to implement (take it as an axiom if
> you do not believe
> it). Its very easy do write a converter in any
> language on the PC 
> side, even windows VBS can do that:
> 
> Dim upper as String = "converted from lowercase" 
> Console.WriteLine(upper.ToUpper())
> Console.WriteLine(UCase(upper))
> Console.WriteLine(StrConv(upper,VbStrConv.UpperCase))
> not to mention the many unix tools like tr...
> 
> > Who actually needs case sensitive forth?? 
> 
> I do and will do so for the next few months, at
> least.
> 
> > PS: It is interesting how the creators of such
> > nice sw implementations do insist on something,
> > which an average
> > > user does not understand.. I've tried FlashForth
> > recently (have a
> > > look on it - a lot of ineresting features you
> > may utilise), however
> > > the creator does insist on FOR NEXT instead of
> > DO LOOP. Frankly, I
> > > do not understand that..
> 
> Thats life. And FF is interesting, indeed.
> 
> 
> Matthias
> 
> PS: If _you_ insist on case insensitivness, feel
> free to send a 
> patch, that I can consider to include into
> amforth. Thats the way Open
> Source Software works and thats the reason why I
> share amforth with 
> other people
> 

The simplest solutiom might be to translate all uppercase letters
(A-Z) into lowercase when input or exercised or compiled. That's it.
So everything will be lowercase internally. You may use uppercase or
lowercase words and it will work. No decisions or flags needed. You
then may use sources with Uppercase or lowercase words and it will
work. The only "issue" will be the visual representation via WORDS -
you will see all lowercase. The formula for the translation is as I
wrote - or someting like that.. (:-))). Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case
Datum: 8.8.2010 - 20:16:59

> Hi Pito,
> 
> > the beauty of the forth implementations like
> > amforth or FF on AVR or
> > > PIC is that you do not need other suits of
> > various supporting tools,
> > > just an editor (e.g. teletype or Palm Treo..).
> > The ucontroller shall
> > > contain everything you need in order to operate
> > it.. This is what
> > > most younger fans may attract to. 
> 
> ACK
> 
> > So a switch between case sensitivness and case
> > insensitivness woud
> > > be a great feature, as I wrote thre are tons of
> > various source codes
> > > available. 
> 
> And you are typing tons of source code with your
> pre treo? Sorry,
> that gives you no points. Tons of source code can
> be pre-processed
> esp. when typing by hand.
> 
> > I am not an avr asm freak so I am not going to
> > dig into your code.
> > > Moreover you might know the code by heart. There
> > must be a simple
> > > point you handle single char from input stream -
> > when the char c is:
> > > 
> > ((c >= 65) and (c <= 90)) then c = c + 32 ; 
> > or something like that..
> 
> you name it: something like that, but not that
> one. Technically the 
> compare words uses two characters  at the same
> time. I still think about
> possible solutions. (maybe a flag for every word
> to signal: compare me 
> case insensitivly?). And which code page(s)? 7bit
> ASCII only probably...
> 
> Matthias
> 
> 

Üito,

> The simplest solutiom might be to translate all uppercase letters
> (A-Z) into lowercase when input or exercised or compiled.

And what do I do with strings like ." hello world " ?
Turn it into HELLO WORLD? No way.

and again: _I_ like the case sensitive feature very much.

Matthias

You won't hear me argue against this view point because I like it too.

For the very good technical reasons already outlined.

I guess ultimately if the case sensitivity is too much to live with,
there is always the option of taking a fork and maintaining it yourself.
Such is the Open Nature of Open Source.

Alternatively there are many text preprocessing tools (Unix/Linux) that
will pre-process text into what ever case you want. Before squirting it
at the Amforth laden micro-controller.

Case sensitivity is good, leave it be, move on, their is so much more
that is important to do, this argument is trivial and unworthy of such
capable individuals.

Sorry if this posting is offensive, enough already, vote with your feet.

On 09/08/10 19:18, Matthias Trute wrote:
> Üito,
> 
>> The simplest solutiom might be to translate all uppercase letters
>> (A-Z) into lowercase when input or exercised or compiled.
> 
> And what do I do with strings like ." hello world " ?
> Turn it into HELLO WORLD? No way.
> 
> and again: _I_ like the case sensitive feature very much.
> 
> Matthias
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Andy,
yes, you are right - there is a lot other things to do with amforth
development. Of course I am not pushing you or the broad amforth
community into any action regarding amforth, it is just a normal
discusion.. I am not biased with any forth - as my forth skills are
minimal, so my perception what would be nice to have is just a point
of view of Mr. XY.

I do understand you like it as it is, however I do understand you
might be happy to have more than ~few users of it in the future. So
as a normal user (who has other options as well) when I take the
amforth (or any other forth), firstly I flash the stuff into the
chip and then I start tackling the promt, the first thing one does
is he/she starts to google and upload ready words into it (examples,
libraries, tests, benchmarks, etc.) which are from 99.978% a happy
mixture of lowercase and uppercase words. So based on your
recommendation one has to start to write his own filters, conversion
tools, analysers, transcoders.. with help of VB or python, at best
under linux (to fit the amforth lowercase ideology), BTW with the
similar issues like Matthias is indicating to me: - what to do with
." HeLLo woRlD" (of course nothing, this shall not be transformed to
xxx_case, it is obvious, we talk words only)? 

My point is the amforth (or pForth, PFForth, FlashForth,....) will
not be considered (by 99% of people) from a very moment as the tool
for programming a microcontroller today, but as a nice little gadget
for playing, learning, evaluating, thinking about forth and related
concepts as a representative of stack based machines. Therefore for
me, as a guy who was also quite technical long time ago, but now
much more customer centric, it means I shall offer (when not
performing a l'art pour l'art exercise only) something one may
practically use (in the way I described above) from scratch - and to
simply google, upload and run a SIEVE WRITTEN IN UPPERCASE ... as
normally nobody is able to write (I mean to program) the SIEVE in
amforth even in lowercase just to test weather the amforth even
works..
This is just my point guys, your mileage may vary... P.

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: an...@ki...
Komu: amf...@li...
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case
Datum: 9.8.2010 - 23:35:43

> You won't hear me argue against this view point
> because I like it too.
> 
> For the very good technical reasons already
> outlined.
> 
> I guess ultimately if the case sensitivity is too
> much to live with,
> there is always the option of taking a fork and
> maintaining it yourself.
> Such is the Open Nature of Open Source.
> 
> Alternatively there are many text preprocessing
> tools (Unix/Linux) that
> will pre-process text into what ever case you
> want. Before squirting it
> at the Amforth laden micro-controller.
> 
> Case sensitivity is good, leave it be, move on,
> their is so much more
> that is important to do, this argument is trivial
> and unworthy of such
> capable individuals.
> 
> Sorry if this posting is offensive, enough
> already, vote with your feet.
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/08/10 19:18, Matthias Trute wrote:
> > Üito,
> > 
> >> The simplest solutiom might be to translate all
> >> uppercase letters
> >> >> (A-Z) into lowercase when input or exercised or
> >> compiled.
> >> > 
> > And what do I do with strings like ." hello
> > world " ?
> > > Turn it into HELLO WORLD? No way.
> > 
> > and again: _I_ like the case sensitive feature
> > very much.
> > > 
> > Matthias
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by 
> > > > 
> > Make an app they can't live without
> > Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amforth-devel mailing list
> > Amf...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------This
> SF.net email is sponsored by 
> > 
> Make an app they can't live without
> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev 
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Thread: [Amforth-devel] amforth - how to make him case insensitive

amforth is an extendible interpreter on microcontrollers

amforth-devel