amforth-devel — Development discussion and user support

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Africa FIFA 2010 final.

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: an...@ki...
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 22:31:45

> Sorry for being a bit stupid
> 
> What is being celebrated 11.7 ??????
> 
> Apologies in advance...
> 
> 
> 
> On 04/07/10 14:51, pito wrote:
> > Yes, I've got it Andy, therefore I started this new
> > post to be more precise.
> > > However, I still think it is easy to implement in
> > the amforth compiler
> > > itself:
> > 1. check whether the new word is not defined already
> > in wordlist
> > > 2. add a new word which "replaces" the old one
> > 3. change references to the new defined word in the
> > all calls in the
> > > all words in wordlist.
> > 
> > It will be a big improvement, Matthias can do that
> > easily, and he will
> > > be definately ready with this nice feature for the
> > big celebration on
> > > 11.7. (:-). Pito.
> > 
> > ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> > Od: "Andy Kirby" <an...@ki...>
> > Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>,
> > > > > "pito" <pi...@vo...>
> > Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton
> > and references
> > > Datum: 4.7.2010 - 15:51:07
> > 
> >> I apologise i was'nt very clear the other explanations
> >> >> have been much better.
> >>
> >> Compilation uses the newest definition in the list.
> >> >> As previously compiled words have the pointers stored
> >> >> at compile time they will always refer to what ever
> >> >> was current in the wordlist at compilation.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> andy kirby
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Like a rolling stone
> >> ----- Original message -----
> >>> So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine
> >>> >>> sinus I have to
> >>>> upload a new word:
> >>>
> >>> : sinus_redefine
> >>> / which defines a new word "sinus" for future compilations
> >>> >>>> ..
> >>> / which iteratively looks up wordlist and changes
> >>> >>> sinus references in
> >>>> the all other words in the system so they all
> >>>> will
> >>>> >>> use the new sinus
> >>>> ...
> >>> ;
> >>>
> >>> than I will get:
> >>>
> >>> sinus5 sinus_redefine sinus4 navigate distance
> >>> sinus3
> >>> >>> position sinus2
> >>>> speed height sinus1 ....
> >>>
> >>> where sinus5 will be used by all existing words.
> >>> >>> (?)
> >>> Pito.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> >>> Od: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
> >>> Komu: amf...@li...
> >>> Předmět: Words redefiniton and references
> >>> Datum: 4.7.2010 - 14:38:27
> >>>
> >>>> Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which
> >>>> >>>> redefines
> >>>>>> the old definitions
> >>>> of the same word and references to it as well
> >>>> is
> >>>> >>>> for
> >>>>>> me important to
> >>>> understand let me start this thread. Imagine my
> >>>> >>>> satellite
> >>>>>> flying - I
> >>>> need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with
> >>>> >>>> a higher
> >>>>>> precision.
> >>>> I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus
> >>>> >>>> as
> >>>>>> the newest word in
> >>>> the list and any word which uses sinus will reference
> >>>> >>>>>> to this new sinus.
> >>>> Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard
> >>>> >>>>>> guidance computer:
> >>>>> words
> >>>> sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2
> >>>> >>>> speed
> >>>>>> height sinus1 ....
> >>>>
> >>>> The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index
> >>>> >>>> for
> >>>>>> clarity only so
> >>>> all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality.
> >>>> >>>> Sinus4
> >>>>>> is the newest
> >>>> upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.
> >>>> >>>>>>
> >>>> The navigate word uses the words heigh and position.
> >>>> >>>>>> Which sinus will
> >>>> be used in height and position words?
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Pito
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > >>> >>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >>> >>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> Amforth-devel mailing list
> >>> Amf...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> >>> >>>
> > 
> > 
> > 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[<an...@ki...>]

Sorry for being a bit stupid

What is being celebrated 11.7 ??????

Apologies in advance...



On 04/07/10 14:51, pito wrote:
> Yes, I've got it Andy, therefore I started this new post to be more precise.
> However, I still think it is easy to implement in the amforth compiler
> itself:
> 1. check whether the new word is not defined already in wordlist
> 2. add a new word which "replaces" the old one
> 3. change references to the new defined word in the all calls in the
> all words in wordlist.
> 
> It will be a big improvement, Matthias can do that easily, and he will
> be definately ready with this nice feature for the big celebration on
> 11.7. (:-). Pito.
> 
> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> Od: "Andy Kirby" <an...@ki...>
> Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>,
> "pito" <pi...@vo...>
> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references
> Datum: 4.7.2010 - 15:51:07
> 
>> I apologise i was'nt very clear the other explanations
>> have been much better.
>>
>> Compilation uses the newest definition in the list.
>> As previously compiled words have the pointers stored
>> at compile time they will always refer to what ever
>> was current in the wordlist at compilation.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> andy kirby
>>
>> -- 
>> Like a rolling stone
>> ----- Original message -----
>>> So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine
>>> sinus I have to
>>>> upload a new word:
>>>
>>> : sinus_redefine
>>> / which defines a new word "sinus" for future compilations
>>>> ..
>>> / which iteratively looks up wordlist and changes
>>> sinus references in
>>>> the all other words in the system so they all will
>>> use the new sinus
>>>> ...
>>> ;
>>>
>>> than I will get:
>>>
>>> sinus5 sinus_redefine sinus4 navigate distance sinus3
>>> position sinus2
>>>> speed height sinus1 ....
>>>
>>> where sinus5 will be used by all existing words.
>>> (?)
>>> Pito.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
>>> Od: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
>>> Komu: amf...@li...
>>> Předmět: Words redefiniton and references
>>> Datum: 4.7.2010 - 14:38:27
>>>
>>>> Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which
>>>> redefines
>>>>>> the old definitions
>>>> of the same word and references to it as well is
>>>> for
>>>>>> me important to
>>>> understand let me start this thread. Imagine my
>>>> satellite
>>>>>> flying - I
>>>> need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with
>>>> a higher
>>>>>> precision.
>>>> I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus
>>>> as
>>>>>> the newest word in
>>>> the list and any word which uses sinus will reference
>>>>>> to this new sinus.
>>>> Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard
>>>>>> guidance computer:
>>>>> words
>>>> sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2
>>>> speed
>>>>>> height sinus1 ....
>>>>
>>>> The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index
>>>> for
>>>>>> clarity only so
>>>> all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality.
>>>> Sinus4
>>>>>> is the newest
>>>> upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.
>>>>>>
>>>> The navigate word uses the words heigh and position.
>>>>>> Which sinus will
>>>> be used in height and position words?
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Pito
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>>> Amf...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>>>
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Amforth on Arduino Nano V3.0, Notes, Hexfile

[avr f. <avr...@gm...>]

Thanks again to Andy Kirby and Erich Waelde.

1. I got it working with:
avrdude -V -c stk500v2 -p atmega328p -P usb -b 115200 -e -u -U
lock:w:0x3f:m -U efuse:w:0xFD:m -U hfuse:w:0xDB:m -U lfuse:w:0xFF:m
avrdude -c stk500v2 -p atmega328p -P usb -b 115200 -U
flash:w:duemilanove.hex  -U eeprom:w:duemilanove.eep  -U lock:w:0x0f:m

2. Added "-V" to skip the fuse check.
3. I'm using screen to connect:  screen /dev/tty.usbserial-A9007Rkn 9600

The colon word is not working as expected.
Do I have to compile words in the hex file or can I do it in the
prompt?  I just tried to write ": hello 1 ;". This will freeze my
system and after that I have to upload the hex again. The colon word
appears when I type "words" so it is in the hex file.

/mat


On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:13 PM, an...@ki...
<an...@ki...> wrote:
> If the files you are renaming are the ones I emailed over. I think it
> may be problematic as they were for the 168 and you state below you have
> a 328.
>
> I will email over the 328 files named duemilanove.
>
> Use the fuse settings for Duemilanove from the readme as well.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy Kirby
>
>
>
> On 01/07/10 20:51, avr feedback wrote:
>> Thanks! Great, this is exiting!
>>
>> What I have is a ATMega 328 and I'm using a ATAVR mkII in-system programmer.
>>
>> To restore the bootloader I use these two lines(from Arduino IDE
>> 0018.) It's not as easy as just renaming the hex file.
>> That did not work. :) (I can se that i'm transmitting characters but
>> nothing is coming back. Tried 9600,19200,38400 with screen and
>> minicom.)
>>
>> avrdude -c stk500v2 -p atmega328p -P usb -b 115200 -e -u -U
>> lock:w:0x3f:m -U efuse:w:0x05:m -U hfuse:w:0xDA:m -U lfuse:w:0xFF:m
>> avrdude -c stk500v2 -p atmega328p -P usb -b 115200 -U
>> flash:w:ATmegaBOOT_168_atmega328.hex -U lock:w:0x0f:m
>>
>> I can't figure out what to do with the eep-file. I feel lost. I guess
>> I have to start from the beginning..
>>
>> /mat
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:19 PM, an...@ki...
>> <an...@ki...> wrote:
>>> It looks like a compressed Diecimila (atmega168) so the Diecimila build
>>> should work OK.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30/06/10 19:18, avr feedback wrote:
>>>> Someone with a hexfile or installation notes for Arduino Nano V3.0?
>>>> Will it work?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardNano
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>>>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>>>> Amf...@li...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>>> Amf...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>> Amf...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

What about this approach:
1. you compile and add a new word e.g. sinus4
2. you check whether the same name does exist already (e.g. sinus3)
3. you replace the header of the older word (sinus3) with a simple jump
to the new one (sinus4).

It will be built into compiler. So every call to an older definition
of the sinus from whathever word previously defined will actually call
the new one. Thus upload of new sinus will affect all previously defined
words.
Of course you must not use marker, otherwise you may loose the track.
However you may redefine marker so it reconstruct jumps to the older
versions of the sinus4.
Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 17:51:49

> Hi Pito,
> 
> > imagine the real situation - I am flying a satellite.
> > 
> I do so all day ;=)
> 
> > based o the new sinus. I want to have a possibility
> > to change ANY word
> > > in the BC in such a way. I do not have problem with
> > growing the flash
> > > volume, so I am not going to use marker. I do not
> > want to use RAM as
> > > RAM is prone to change the content when irradiated
> > by Higgs bosone.
> > > It is doable?
> 
> Sure it is. You can make precaution to minimize the
> utilization
> of your communication window as well. 
> 
> What you need is a search-replace word that changes
> the
> flash content within a specified address range. fairly
> easy
> to implement, but i doubt a general benefit. 
> 
> Matthias

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Pito,

> imagine the real situation - I am flying a satellite.

I do so all day ;=)

> based o the new sinus. I want to have a possibility to change ANY word
> in the BC in such a way. I do not have problem with growing the flash
> volume, so I am not going to use marker. I do not want to use RAM as
> RAM is prone to change the content when irradiated by Higgs bosone.
> It is doable?

Sure it is. You can make precaution to minimize the utilization
of your communication window as well. 

What you need is a search-replace word that changes the
flash content within a specified address range. fairly easy
to implement, but i doubt a general benefit. 

Matthias

[Amforth-devel] [Fwd: Re: Starting with amforth v4]

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

My second try to forward my message. Sorry.

-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
Von: Matthias Trute <mt...@we...>
An: pito <pi...@vo...>
Betreff: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:57:30 +0200

Am Samstag, den 03.07.2010, 20:53 +0200 schrieb pito: 
> Matthias,
> I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you mark the set of words
> with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area (as you may have X words
> defined)? Is that the next new marker position? It means (wordlist):
> 
> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->  the area of marker
> 
> -foo2
> 
> bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
> <-----------> <--------------->
> 
> or
> 
> bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1 ??
> <----------->                   <--------------->
> 
> My understanding is it works like a "file system" so a deleted -foo will
> create a free space for new words - am I right?

calling -foo1 will erase everything left to it: all happy's, the -foo2,
the hello's and the bla's and -foo3. You association with a file system
and (perhaps) directories (for wordlists) is misleading somehow. marker
resets the whole dictionary to the state when the marker-word is
defined. That frees all allocated ressources as well for re-use (RAM,
EEPROM, Flash).

> As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments and the word list
> is now very long so the way how the list is maintained seems to be a
> challenge..

word lists are simple linear lists, that are searched item by item.
There is no index or whatever comes to mind. Simple and slow. But easy
to implement and IMHO good enough: 

worst case szenario: The whole dictionary is limited in
size (64KWords), each dictionary entry is at least 4 words in size.
If you add another 4 words for the real code, you will have some 8000
entries in the list. I did not yet benchmark this situation, but
I'd guess, it is still usable. If you do have concerns with the
interactive speed, you can organize the interactive words in a separate
wordlist that is searched first by the interpreter. Once the words are
compiled, the word list length is no longer relevant.

Matthias

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Hi Matthias,
imagine the real situation - I am flying a satellite. The board computer
BC is radhard atmega32. All i/outputs are set properly, the satellite
provides automatically some measurement from time to time, or perform
a taks per link request (to run a word). I communicate via an uplink/downlink
19k2, 8n1. The link is very noisy. I need CRC check. From time to time
I need to CRC whole BC memory. If failed I need to reload BC from external
EEPROM. The HW reset of the BC is not allowed. We run Amforth 4.0 as
we were told amforth is good for space applications. Now I need to change
a word - sinus. My communication window is 10sec. I can send few hundred
bytes maximum. After the succesful upload I require the BC will guide
based o the new sinus. I want to have a possibility to change ANY word
in the BC in such a way. I do not have problem with growing the flash
volume, so I am not going to use marker. I do not want to use RAM as
RAM is prone to change the content when irradiated by Higgs bosone.
It is doable?
Cheers,
Pito


----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 15:36:38

> Hi Pito,
> 
> > So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine
> > sinus I have to
> > > upload a new word:
> 
> just start as follows
> 
> \ Rdefer uses the RAM, so it needs to be initialized
> \ every time the controller starts
> 
> Rdefer sinus
> 
> \ define a word that uses sinus. note that there is
> still
> \ no code for calculating sinus !
> : height ... sinus ... ;
> 
> \ now comes the first version of the sinus code
> : sinus1 ...... ;
> ' sinus1 is sinus
> 
> calling height will indirectly call sinus1 as sinus
> 
> \ define another sinus, probably better
> : sinus2 ..... ;
> \ and make it active
> ' sinus2 is sinus
> 
> calling height _now_ will execute sinus2, sinus1 is
> no longer
> used. heigth itself is not changed at all.
> 
> 
> wrt to the initialization: you will have to extend
> turnkey
> to include the proper ' sinus_x is sinus otherwise
> heigth uses some uninitializes pointer that will cause
> a crash.
> 
> if you use Edefer instead of Rdefer the settings will
> be stored
> in the EEPROM. all other code above can remain (esp.
> the is )
> 
> HTH
> Matthias

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[Andy K. <an...@ki...>]

I apologise i was'nt very clear the other explanations have been much better.

Compilation uses the newest definition in the list. As previously compiled words have the pointers stored at compile time they will always refer to what ever was current in the wordlist at compilation.

Cheers

andy kirby

-- 
Like a rolling stone
----- Original message -----
> So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine sinus I have to
> upload a new word:
> 
> : sinus_redefine
> / which defines a new word "sinus" for future compilations
> ..
> / which iteratively looks up wordlist and changes sinus references in
> the all other words in the system so they all will use the new sinus
> ...
> ;
> 
> than I will get:
> 
> sinus5 sinus_redefine sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2
> speed height sinus1 ....
> 
> where sinus5 will be used by all existing words.
> (?)
> Pito.
> 
> 
> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> Od: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
> Komu: amf...@li...
> Předmět: Words redefiniton and references
> Datum: 4.7.2010 - 14:38:27
> 
> > Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which redefines
> > the old definitions
> > of the same word and references to it as well is for
> > me important to
> > understand let me start this thread. Imagine my satellite
> > flying - I
> > need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with a higher
> > precision.
> > I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus as
> > the newest word in
> > the list and any word which uses sinus will reference
> > to this new sinus.
> > Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard
> > guidance computer:
> > > words
> > sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2 speed
> > height sinus1 ....
> > 
> > The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index for
> > clarity only so
> > all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality. Sinus4
> > is the newest
> > upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.
> > 
> > The navigate word uses the words heigh and position.
> > Which sinus will
> > be used in height and position words?
> > Cheers,
> > Pito
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Yes, I've got it Andy, therefore I started this new post to be more precise.
However, I still think it is easy to implement in the amforth compiler
itself:
1. check whether the new word is not defined already in wordlist
2. add a new word which "replaces" the old one
3. change references to the new defined word in the all calls in the
all words in wordlist.

It will be a big improvement, Matthias can do that easily, and he will
be definately ready with this nice feature for the big celebration on
11.7. (:-). Pito.

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Andy Kirby" <an...@ki...>
Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>,
"pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 15:51:07

> I apologise i was'nt very clear the other explanations
> have been much better.
> 
> Compilation uses the newest definition in the list.
> As previously compiled words have the pointers stored
> at compile time they will always refer to what ever
> was current in the wordlist at compilation.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> andy kirby
> 
> -- 
> Like a rolling stone
> ----- Original message -----
> > So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine
> > sinus I have to
> > > upload a new word:
> > 
> > : sinus_redefine
> > / which defines a new word "sinus" for future compilations
> > > ..
> > / which iteratively looks up wordlist and changes
> > sinus references in
> > > the all other words in the system so they all will
> > use the new sinus
> > > ...
> > ;
> > 
> > than I will get:
> > 
> > sinus5 sinus_redefine sinus4 navigate distance sinus3
> > position sinus2
> > > speed height sinus1 ....
> > 
> > where sinus5 will be used by all existing words.
> > (?)
> > Pito.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> > Od: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
> > Komu: amf...@li...
> > Předmět: Words redefiniton and references
> > Datum: 4.7.2010 - 14:38:27
> > 
> > > Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which
> > > redefines
> > > > > the old definitions
> > > of the same word and references to it as well is
> > > for
> > > > > me important to
> > > understand let me start this thread. Imagine my
> > > satellite
> > > > > flying - I
> > > need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with
> > > a higher
> > > > > precision.
> > > I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus
> > > as
> > > > > the newest word in
> > > the list and any word which uses sinus will reference
> > > > > to this new sinus.
> > > Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard
> > > > > guidance computer:
> > > > words
> > > sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2
> > > speed
> > > > > height sinus1 ....
> > > 
> > > The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index
> > > for
> > > > > clarity only so
> > > all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality.
> > > Sinus4
> > > > > is the newest
> > > upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.
> > > > > 
> > > The navigate word uses the words heigh and position.
> > > > > Which sinus will
> > > be used in height and position words?
> > > Cheers,
> > > Pito
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> > What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> > > Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> > > _______________________________________________
> > Amforth-devel mailing list
> > Amf...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> > 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Pito,

> So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine sinus I have to
> upload a new word:

just start as follows

\ Rdefer uses the RAM, so it needs to be initialized
\ every time the controller starts

Rdefer sinus

\ define a word that uses sinus. note that there is still
\ no code for calculating sinus !
: height ... sinus ... ;

\ now comes the first version of the sinus code
: sinus1 ...... ;
' sinus1 is sinus

calling height will indirectly call sinus1 as sinus

\ define another sinus, probably better
: sinus2 ..... ;
\ and make it active
' sinus2 is sinus

calling height _now_ will execute sinus2, sinus1 is no longer
used. heigth itself is not changed at all.


wrt to the initialization: you will have to extend turnkey
to include the proper ' sinus_x is sinus otherwise
heigth uses some uninitializes pointer that will cause a crash.

if you use Edefer instead of Rdefer the settings will be stored
in the EEPROM. all other code above can remain (esp. the is )

HTH
Matthias

Re: [Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

So from all the previous posts - in order to redefine sinus I have to
upload a new word:

: sinus_redefine
/ which defines a new word "sinus" for future compilations
..
/ which iteratively looks up wordlist and changes sinus references in
the all other words in the system so they all will use the new sinus
...
;

than I will get:

sinus5 sinus_redefine sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2
speed height sinus1 ....

where sinus5 will be used by all existing words.
(?)
Pito.


----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Komu: amf...@li...
Předmět: Words redefiniton and references
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 14:38:27

> Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which redefines
> the old definitions
> of the same word and references to it as well is for
> me important to
> understand let me start this thread. Imagine my satellite
> flying - I
> need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with a higher
> precision.
> I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus as
> the newest word in
> the list and any word which uses sinus will reference
> to this new sinus.
> Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard
> guidance computer:
> > words
> sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2 speed
> height sinus1 ....
> 
> The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index for
> clarity only so
> all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality. Sinus4
> is the newest
> upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.
> 
> The navigate word uses the words heigh and position.
> Which sinus will
> be used in height and position words?
> Cheers,
> Pito
> 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi,

> Erich, this is a bad news. It contradicts to what Andy indicated - the
> height will use THE NEWEST defined sinus. If the height would have used
> the newest defined sinus I would call it a big plus for forth.

What you want to achieve can be done by using deferred words. They are
designed to resolve the code to be executed at runtime.
Normal forth code is resolved at compile time. Erichs explaination is
absolutly correct.

amforth supports deferred words in a few different ways: Edefer
uses EEPROM cells, Rdefer ordinary RAM cells and Udefer uses
task specific User Variables. Details of how deferred words
in general are at the forth200x website
(http://www.forth200x.org/deferred.html

> There must be I guess a simple mechanism where the newest defined sinus will
> change all the references in all the other words which call the sinus.

You can iterate over the whole dictionary and replace all occurances of
the old sinus with your new one. But no marker/forget will undo that.


> If I uplaod a new sinus word to my satellite I would be very happy that
> all the words will use the new sinus. Pito

see above: If you plan to replace the sinus any time later on, make it
deferred. amforth has a few deferred words, the most important ones are
probably turnkey and pause.

Matthias

[Amforth-devel] Words redefiniton and references

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Hi, as the concept of uploading a new word which redefines the old definitions
of the same word and references to it as well is for me important to
understand let me start this thread. Imagine my satellite flying - I
need to upload a more precise word "sinus" with a higher precision.
I do assume that amforth will put the new sinus as the newest word in
the list and any word which uses sinus will reference to this new sinus.
Let assume following wordlist coming from my onboard guidance computer:
> words
sinus4 navigate distance sinus3 position sinus2 speed height sinus1 ....

The suffix in sinus indicates redefinition index for clarity only so
all the sinuses are word "sinus" in the reality. Sinus4 is the newest
upladed word. The left hand side words are newer.

The navigate word uses the words heigh and position. Which sinus will
be used in height and position words?
Cheers,
Pito

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[Kalus M. <mic...@on...>]

Hi.


Am 04.07.2010 um 13:09 schrieb pito:

> Andy,
> No, the wordlist is as printed out with "words". So lefthandside are
> the newest defined.
> Pito
>
..
>>>> words
>>> navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
>>> sinus ....
>>>

navigate is last defined word.
If position, distance and navigate use sinus, they use the 3rd  
(latest) sinus defined. If speed and height use sinus, they use the  
first sinus. Second sinus is not uses at all.

If you want speed and height and position and distance and navigate  
all use the same sinus do it like this:

defere sinus
: sinus1 <some.code> ;
' sinus1 is sinus
And later my be you have a
: sinus2 <some.other.code> ;
Now you can say
' sinus2 is sinus

So this way they all use the same sinus.

Michael

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Erich, this is a bad news. It contradicts to what Andy indicated - the
height will use THE NEWEST defined sinus. If the height would have used
the newest defined sinus I would call it a big plus for forth. There
must be I guess a simple mechanism where the newest defined sinus will
change all the references in all the other words which call the sinus.
If I uplaod a new sinus word to my satellite I would be very happy that
all the words will use the new sinus. Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Erich Waelde" <ew....@na...>
Komu: amf...@li...
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 13:31:23

> Hello,
> 
> On 07/04/2010 12:46 PM, pito wrote:
> > Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with
> > my dev system. Frankly
> > > the way how it works is changing my understanding
> > for "interactivity".
> > > Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space
> > occupied will grow.
> > > Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space
> > and I am tweaking
> > > the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have
> > at least a chance
> > > activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen
> > the forth manual the
> > > last definition of a word is valid. So you may have
> > many words with
> > > same name, however the last one will be used (am
> > I right?) for "following"
> > > usage. Imagine wordlist:
> >> words
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > >
> > The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and
> > height calculations?
> > 
> Assuming height calls sinus. When height is compiled,
> it searches
> for sinus in the current wordlist. So it finds
> 
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > ------------------------------------------------------^^^^
> this one.
> 
> HOWEVER, sinus is redefined twice. When position is
> compiled,
> it will find
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > -----------------------------^^^^^
> this one. Same when you call it interactively in this
> state
> of definitions.
> 
> And redefining sinus will *NOT* change the reference
> to
> the older version of sinus in height.
> 
> 
> I'm sure you have consulted
> http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html
> Chapter 9 (under the hood) gives a brief outline, how
> dictionary entries are organized.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Erich
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

Hello,

On 07/04/2010 12:46 PM, pito wrote:
> Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with my dev system. Frankly
> the way how it works is changing my understanding for "interactivity".
> Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space occupied will grow.
> Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space and I am tweaking
> the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have at least a chance
> activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen the forth manual the
> last definition of a word is valid. So you may have many words with
> same name, however the last one will be used (am I right?) for "following"
> usage. Imagine wordlist:
>> words
> navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....
>
> The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and height calculations?

Assuming height calls sinus. When height is compiled, it searches
for sinus in the current wordlist. So it finds

 > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....
------------------------------------------------------^^^^
this one.

HOWEVER, sinus is redefined twice. When position is compiled,
it will find
 > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....
-----------------------------^^^^^
this one. Same when you call it interactively in this state
of definitions.

And redefining sinus will *NOT* change the reference to
the older version of sinus in height.


I'm sure you have consulted
http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html
Chapter 9 (under the hood) gives a brief outline, how
dictionary entries are organized.


Cheers,
Erich

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Andy, so the forth when parsing any word in wordlist is using always
the newest word defined(from lefthanside or newest defined in the wordlist)
so the word height will use the word sinus next right to the word position..?
Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: an...@ki...
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 13:02:32

> The last definition you wrote is the one that gets
> run when you invoke
> the word.
> 
> So for :-
> 
> >> words
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > 
> ........................................................*
> 
> Assuming left hand side is the start or oldest end
> of the wordlist and
> right is the end or newest end of the wordlist. The
> asterisk is marking
> the one that would be used. The others are waste.
> 
> For the purposes of Space Technology this is actually
> a good feature.
> 
> Imagine that a stray bit of cosmic radiation zaps through
> your
> controllers memory and screws up the last sinus word
> in the list.
> 
> You dont want to try and recovery all the memory that
> the defintion
> occupied becasue there is no way for you to tell which
> bit has been zapped.
> 
> You just define sinus again. the new definition coming
> closer to the end
> of the list is used in preference to the screwed one
> and your satellite
> is returned to full service.
> 
> If you were developing code in situ as a development
> thing you would
> marker before you started. Develop and when happy invoke
> the marker and
> reload just the good code bits. Eliminating all the
> trial and error
> along the way.
> 
> FORTH has apparently been used in several space programs
> because of
> these types of features. ie your mission is remotely
> repairable and
> therefore less likely to fail.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy Kirby
> 
> 
> 
> On 04/07/10 11:46, pito wrote:
> > Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with
> > my dev system. Frankly
> > > the way how it works is changing my understanding
> > for "interactivity".
> > > Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space
> > occupied will grow.
> > > Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space
> > and I am tweaking
> > > the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have
> > at least a chance
> > > activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen
> > the forth manual the
> > > last definition of a word is valid. So you may have
> > many words with
> > > same name, however the last one will be used (am
> > I right?) for "following"
> > > usage. Imagine wordlist:
> >> words
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > > 
> > The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and
> > height calculations?
> > > 
> > Sorry for this elementar Q, however I think one has
> > to understand the
> > > concepts...
> > Pito
> > 
> > 
> > ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> > Od: an...@ki...
> > Komu: amf...@li...
> > Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth
> > v4
> > > Datum: 4.7.2010 - 12:02:46
> > 
> >> Interesting question.
> >>
> >> I am afraid my understanding is that when you marker
> >> >> you delete
> >> everything back to the marker. Other markers as
> >> well.
> >> >>
> >> Managing linked lists etc on microcontrolers with
> >> limited
> >> >> space can be
> >> problematic. You dont have the memory to reorganize
> >> >> the memory space to
> >> free up bits of space in the middle of lumps of
> >> good
> >> >> code. Who is to say
> >> that the next bit of code would fit that space ???
> >> >>
> >> The technique then is to purge from the end of the
> >> >> list wherever that
> >> may be back to the marker.
> >>
> >> So for
> >>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>>
> >> doing -foo2 would give you.....
> >>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello
> >>
> >> Doing -foo1 would be pointless.
> >>
> >> Doing -foo3 would give........
> >>
> >>> bla bla
> >>
> >> Happy to be told I have got the wrong end of the
> >> stick
> >> >> though.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Andy Kirby
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 03/07/10 19:53, pito wrote:
> >>> Matthias,
> >>> I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you
> >>> >>> mark the set of words
> >>>> with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area
> >>>> (as
> >>>> >>> you may have X words
> >>>> defined)? Is that the next new marker position?
> >>>> It
> >>>> >>> means (wordlist):
> >>>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>>> <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->
> >>>> >>> the area of marker
> >>>>
> >>> -foo2
> >>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
> >>> <-----------> <--------------->
> >>>
> >>> or
> >>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>> ??
> >>>> <----------->                   <--------------->
> >>>> >>>>
> >>> My understanding is it works like a "file system"
> >>> >>> so a deleted -foo will
> >>>> create a free space for new words - am I right?
> >>>> >>> As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments
> >>> >>> and the word list
> >>>> is now very long so the way how the list is maintained
> >>>> >>> seems to be a
> >>>> challenge..
> >>> Pito
> >>>
> >>> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> >>> Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
> >>> Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
> >>> > >>> >>>>>> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with
> >>>>>> amforth
> >>>>>> >>> v4
> >>>> Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Pito,
> >>>>
> >>>>> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
> >>>>> >>>>>>>> is you may delete
> >>>>>> words from flash w/o burning new image.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just do a 
> >>>>
> >>>> marker -foo 
> >>>> : bar ;
> >>>> : baz bar ;
> >>>> ... use bar and baz and...
> >>>>
> >>>> now get rid of bar
> >>>>
> >>>> -foo
> >>>>
> >>>> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real
> >>>> >>>> difference
> >>>>>> from a
> >>>> users point of view is some planning with the
> >>>> -foo
> >>>> >>>>>> thing. Most of my
> >>>> source files define such markes...
> >>>>
> >>>>> However let us mind the atmel
> >>>>> flash and eeprom endurance..
> >>>>
> >>>> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
> >>>> >>>>>> they have seen
> >>>> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing
> >>>> a
> >>>> >>>> DIP
> >>>>>> package is
> >>>> easy...
> >>>>
> >>>> Matthias
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > >>> >>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >>> >>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> Amforth-devel mailing list
> >>> Amf...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> >>> >>>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >> >> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Amforth-devel mailing list
> >> Amf...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> >> > 
> > 
> > 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Andy,
No, the wordlist is as printed out with "words". So lefthandside are
the newest defined.
Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: an...@ki...
Komu: "pito" <pi...@vo...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 13:02:32

> The last definition you wrote is the one that gets
> run when you invoke
> the word.
> 
> So for :-
> 
> >> words
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > 
> ........................................................*
> 
> Assuming left hand side is the start or oldest end
> of the wordlist and
> right is the end or newest end of the wordlist. The
> asterisk is marking
> the one that would be used. The others are waste.
> 
> For the purposes of Space Technology this is actually
> a good feature.
> 
> Imagine that a stray bit of cosmic radiation zaps through
> your
> controllers memory and screws up the last sinus word
> in the list.
> 
> You dont want to try and recovery all the memory that
> the defintion
> occupied becasue there is no way for you to tell which
> bit has been zapped.
> 
> You just define sinus again. the new definition coming
> closer to the end
> of the list is used in preference to the screwed one
> and your satellite
> is returned to full service.
> 
> If you were developing code in situ as a development
> thing you would
> marker before you started. Develop and when happy invoke
> the marker and
> reload just the good code bits. Eliminating all the
> trial and error
> along the way.
> 
> FORTH has apparently been used in several space programs
> because of
> these types of features. ie your mission is remotely
> repairable and
> therefore less likely to fail.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy Kirby
> 
> 
> 
> On 04/07/10 11:46, pito wrote:
> > Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with
> > my dev system. Frankly
> > > the way how it works is changing my understanding
> > for "interactivity".
> > > Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space
> > occupied will grow.
> > > Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space
> > and I am tweaking
> > > the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have
> > at least a chance
> > > activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen
> > the forth manual the
> > > last definition of a word is valid. So you may have
> > many words with
> > > same name, however the last one will be used (am
> > I right?) for "following"
> > > usage. Imagine wordlist:
> >> words
> > navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height
> > sinus ....
> > > 
> > The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and
> > height calculations?
> > > 
> > Sorry for this elementar Q, however I think one has
> > to understand the
> > > concepts...
> > Pito
> > 
> > 
> > ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> > Od: an...@ki...
> > Komu: amf...@li...
> > Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth
> > v4
> > > Datum: 4.7.2010 - 12:02:46
> > 
> >> Interesting question.
> >>
> >> I am afraid my understanding is that when you marker
> >> >> you delete
> >> everything back to the marker. Other markers as
> >> well.
> >> >>
> >> Managing linked lists etc on microcontrolers with
> >> limited
> >> >> space can be
> >> problematic. You dont have the memory to reorganize
> >> >> the memory space to
> >> free up bits of space in the middle of lumps of
> >> good
> >> >> code. Who is to say
> >> that the next bit of code would fit that space ???
> >> >>
> >> The technique then is to purge from the end of the
> >> >> list wherever that
> >> may be back to the marker.
> >>
> >> So for
> >>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>>
> >> doing -foo2 would give you.....
> >>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello
> >>
> >> Doing -foo1 would be pointless.
> >>
> >> Doing -foo3 would give........
> >>
> >>> bla bla
> >>
> >> Happy to be told I have got the wrong end of the
> >> stick
> >> >> though.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Andy Kirby
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 03/07/10 19:53, pito wrote:
> >>> Matthias,
> >>> I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you
> >>> >>> mark the set of words
> >>>> with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area
> >>>> (as
> >>>> >>> you may have X words
> >>>> defined)? Is that the next new marker position?
> >>>> It
> >>>> >>> means (wordlist):
> >>>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>>> <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->
> >>>> >>> the area of marker
> >>>>
> >>> -foo2
> >>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
> >>> <-----------> <--------------->
> >>>
> >>> or
> >>>
> >>> bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1
> >>> >>> ??
> >>>> <----------->                   <--------------->
> >>>> >>>>
> >>> My understanding is it works like a "file system"
> >>> >>> so a deleted -foo will
> >>>> create a free space for new words - am I right?
> >>>> >>> As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments
> >>> >>> and the word list
> >>>> is now very long so the way how the list is maintained
> >>>> >>> seems to be a
> >>>> challenge..
> >>> Pito
> >>>
> >>> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> >>> Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
> >>> Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
> >>> > >>> >>>>>> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with
> >>>>>> amforth
> >>>>>> >>> v4
> >>>> Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Pito,
> >>>>
> >>>>> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
> >>>>> >>>>>>>> is you may delete
> >>>>>> words from flash w/o burning new image.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just do a 
> >>>>
> >>>> marker -foo 
> >>>> : bar ;
> >>>> : baz bar ;
> >>>> ... use bar and baz and...
> >>>>
> >>>> now get rid of bar
> >>>>
> >>>> -foo
> >>>>
> >>>> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real
> >>>> >>>> difference
> >>>>>> from a
> >>>> users point of view is some planning with the
> >>>> -foo
> >>>> >>>>>> thing. Most of my
> >>>> source files define such markes...
> >>>>
> >>>>> However let us mind the atmel
> >>>>> flash and eeprom endurance..
> >>>>
> >>>> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
> >>>> >>>>>> they have seen
> >>>> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing
> >>>> a
> >>>> >>>> DIP
> >>>>>> package is
> >>>> easy...
> >>>>
> >>>> Matthias
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > >>> >>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >>> >>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> Amforth-devel mailing list
> >>> Amf...@li...
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> >>> >>>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >> >> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
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> >> Amforth-devel mailing list
> >> Amf...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> >> > 
> > 
> > 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[<an...@ki...>]

The last definition you wrote is the one that gets run when you invoke
the word.

So for :-

>> words
> navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....

........................................................*

Assuming left hand side is the start or oldest end of the wordlist and
right is the end or newest end of the wordlist. The asterisk is marking
the one that would be used. The others are waste.

For the purposes of Space Technology this is actually a good feature.

Imagine that a stray bit of cosmic radiation zaps through your
controllers memory and screws up the last sinus word in the list.

You dont want to try and recovery all the memory that the defintion
occupied becasue there is no way for you to tell which bit has been zapped.

You just define sinus again. the new definition coming closer to the end
of the list is used in preference to the screwed one and your satellite
is returned to full service.

If you were developing code in situ as a development thing you would
marker before you started. Develop and when happy invoke the marker and
reload just the good code bits. Eliminating all the trial and error
along the way.

FORTH has apparently been used in several space programs because of
these types of features. ie your mission is remotely repairable and
therefore less likely to fail.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Andy Kirby



On 04/07/10 11:46, pito wrote:
> Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with my dev system. Frankly
> the way how it works is changing my understanding for "interactivity".
> Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space occupied will grow.
> Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space and I am tweaking
> the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have at least a chance
> activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen the forth manual the
> last definition of a word is valid. So you may have many words with
> same name, however the last one will be used (am I right?) for "following"
> usage. Imagine wordlist:
>> words
> navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....
> 
> The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and height calculations?
> 
> Sorry for this elementar Q, however I think one has to understand the
> concepts...
> Pito
> 
> 
> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> Od: an...@ki...
> Komu: amf...@li...
> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
> Datum: 4.7.2010 - 12:02:46
> 
>> Interesting question.
>>
>> I am afraid my understanding is that when you marker
>> you delete
>> everything back to the marker. Other markers as well.
>>
>> Managing linked lists etc on microcontrolers with limited
>> space can be
>> problematic. You dont have the memory to reorganize
>> the memory space to
>> free up bits of space in the middle of lumps of good
>> code. Who is to say
>> that the next bit of code would fit that space ???
>>
>> The technique then is to purge from the end of the
>> list wherever that
>> may be back to the marker.
>>
>> So for
>>
>>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
>>>
>> doing -foo2 would give you.....
>>
>>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello
>>
>> Doing -foo1 would be pointless.
>>
>> Doing -foo3 would give........
>>
>>> bla bla
>>
>> Happy to be told I have got the wrong end of the stick
>> though.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy Kirby
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/07/10 19:53, pito wrote:
>>> Matthias,
>>> I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you
>>> mark the set of words
>>>> with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area (as
>>> you may have X words
>>>> defined)? Is that the next new marker position? It
>>> means (wordlist):
>>>>
>>> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
>>>> <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->
>>> the area of marker
>>>>
>>> -foo2
>>>
>>> bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
>>> <-----------> <--------------->
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1
>>> ??
>>>> <----------->                   <--------------->
>>>>
>>> My understanding is it works like a "file system"
>>> so a deleted -foo will
>>>> create a free space for new words - am I right?
>>> As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments
>>> and the word list
>>>> is now very long so the way how the list is maintained
>>> seems to be a
>>>> challenge..
>>> Pito
>>>
>>> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
>>> Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
>>> Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
>>>>>> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth
>>> v4
>>>> Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30
>>>
>>>> Hi Pito,
>>>>
>>>>> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
>>>>>>>> is you may delete
>>>>>> words from flash w/o burning new image.
>>>>
>>>> Just do a 
>>>>
>>>> marker -foo 
>>>> : bar ;
>>>> : baz bar ;
>>>> ... use bar and baz and...
>>>>
>>>> now get rid of bar
>>>>
>>>> -foo
>>>>
>>>> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real
>>>> difference
>>>>>> from a
>>>> users point of view is some planning with the -foo
>>>>>> thing. Most of my
>>>> source files define such markes...
>>>>
>>>>> However let us mind the atmel
>>>>> flash and eeprom endurance..
>>>>
>>>> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
>>>>>> they have seen
>>>> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing a
>>>> DIP
>>>>>> package is
>>>> easy...
>>>>
>>>> Matthias
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>>>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>>> Amf...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
>> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amforth-devel mailing list
>> Amf...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Andy, after I rised the Q I did it directly with my dev system. Frankly
the way how it works is changing my understanding for "interactivity".
Basically you cannot delete wrong words so the space occupied will grow.
Imagine my apollo picosatellite flying in the space and I am tweaking
the sw in its guidance computer. So I have to have at least a chance
activate/deactivate specific words. As I've seen the forth manual the
last definition of a word is valid. So you may have many words with
same name, however the last one will be used (am I right?) for "following"
usage. Imagine wordlist:
> words
navigate distance position sinus sinus speed height sinus ....

The Q: which sinus word will be used in speed and height calculations?

Sorry for this elementar Q, however I think one has to understand the
concepts...
Pito


----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: an...@ki...
Komu: amf...@li...
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: 4.7.2010 - 12:02:46

> Interesting question.
> 
> I am afraid my understanding is that when you marker
> you delete
> everything back to the marker. Other markers as well.
> 
> Managing linked lists etc on microcontrolers with limited
> space can be
> problematic. You dont have the memory to reorganize
> the memory space to
> free up bits of space in the middle of lumps of good
> code. Who is to say
> that the next bit of code would fit that space ???
> 
> The technique then is to purge from the end of the
> list wherever that
> may be back to the marker.
> 
> So for
> 
> > bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> > 
> doing -foo2 would give you.....
> 
> > bla bla -foo3 hello hello
> 
> Doing -foo1 would be pointless.
> 
> Doing -foo3 would give........
> 
> > bla bla
> 
> Happy to be told I have got the wrong end of the stick
> though.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy Kirby
> 
> 
> 
> On 03/07/10 19:53, pito wrote:
> > Matthias,
> > I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you
> > mark the set of words
> > > with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area (as
> > you may have X words
> > > defined)? Is that the next new marker position? It
> > means (wordlist):
> > > 
> > bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> > > <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->
> > the area of marker
> > > 
> > -foo2
> > 
> > bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
> > <-----------> <--------------->
> > 
> > or
> > 
> > bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1
> > ??
> > > <----------->                   <--------------->
> > > 
> > My understanding is it works like a "file system"
> > so a deleted -foo will
> > > create a free space for new words - am I right?
> > As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments
> > and the word list
> > > is now very long so the way how the list is maintained
> > seems to be a
> > > challenge..
> > Pito
> > 
> > ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> > Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
> > Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
> > > > > Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth
> > v4
> > > Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30
> > 
> >> Hi Pito,
> >>
> >>> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
> >>> >>> is you may delete
> >>>> words from flash w/o burning new image.
> >>
> >> Just do a 
> >>
> >> marker -foo 
> >> : bar ;
> >> : baz bar ;
> >> ... use bar and baz and...
> >>
> >> now get rid of bar
> >>
> >> -foo
> >>
> >> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real
> >> difference
> >> >> from a
> >> users point of view is some planning with the -foo
> >> >> thing. Most of my
> >> source files define such markes...
> >>
> >>> However let us mind the atmel
> >>> flash and eeprom endurance..
> >>
> >> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
> >> >> they have seen
> >> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing a
> >> DIP
> >> >> package is
> >> easy...
> >>
> >> Matthias
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> > What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> > > Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> > > _______________________________________________
> > Amforth-devel mailing list
> > Amf...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> > > 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

Hello,

On 07/04/2010 12:02 PM, an...@ki... wrote:

> The technique then is to purge from the end of the list wherever that
> may be back to the marker.

Correct.

Whereever the end of the currently used space, calling a marker word will
free everything from the end to (and including) the marker word.

When defineing

   marker -foo1

calling "-foo1"  does reset the relevant pointers to the positions
known when defining the marker. Reusing the "free" space then just
overwrites, what was there before.


Cheers,
Erich

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[<an...@ki...>]

Interesting question.

I am afraid my understanding is that when you marker you delete
everything back to the marker. Other markers as well.

Managing linked lists etc on microcontrolers with limited space can be
problematic. You dont have the memory to reorganize the memory space to
free up bits of space in the middle of lumps of good code. Who is to say
that the next bit of code would fit that space ???

The technique then is to purge from the end of the list wherever that
may be back to the marker.

So for

> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1

doing -foo2 would give you.....

> bla bla -foo3 hello hello

Doing -foo1 would be pointless.

Doing -foo3 would give........

> bla bla

Happy to be told I have got the wrong end of the stick though.

Cheers

Andy Kirby



On 03/07/10 19:53, pito wrote:
> Matthias,
> I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you mark the set of words
> with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area (as you may have X words
> defined)? Is that the next new marker position? It means (wordlist):
> 
> bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
> <-----------> <---------------> <--------------->  the area of marker
> 
> -foo2
> 
> bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
> <-----------> <--------------->
> 
> or
> 
> bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1 ??
> <----------->                   <--------------->
> 
> My understanding is it works like a "file system" so a deleted -foo will
> create a free space for new words - am I right?
> As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments and the word list
> is now very long so the way how the list is maintained seems to be a
> challenge..
> Pito
> 
> ----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
> Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
> Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
> Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
> Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30
> 
>> Hi Pito,
>>
>>> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
>>> is you may delete
>>>> words from flash w/o burning new image.
>>
>> Just do a 
>>
>> marker -foo 
>> : bar ;
>> : baz bar ;
>> ... use bar and baz and...
>>
>> now get rid of bar
>>
>> -foo
>>
>> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real difference
>> from a
>> users point of view is some planning with the -foo
>> thing. Most of my
>> source files define such markes...
>>
>>> However let us mind the atmel
>>> flash and eeprom endurance..
>>
>> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
>> they have seen
>> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing a DIP
>> package is
>> easy...
>>
>> Matthias
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> _______________________________________________
> Amforth-devel mailing list
> Amf...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amforth-devel
> 

[Amforth-devel] Marker or forget

[Andy K. <an...@ki...>]

Given the importance of using either marker or forget during development. There is almost a case for making one of them part of core.

If marker is the prefered word then marker plus sjpporting words.
--
Like a rolling stone

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[pito <pi...@vo...>]

Matthias,
I see the marker usage with sieve example. If you mark the set of words
with -foo2 where is the end of the marked area (as you may have X words
defined)? Is that the next new marker position? It means (wordlist):

bla bla -foo3 hello hello -foo2 happy happy -foo1
<-----------> <---------------> <--------------->  the area of marker

-foo2

bla bla -foo3 happy happy -foo1 
<-----------> <--------------->

or

bla bla -foo3 ...................happy happy -foo1 ??
<----------->                   <--------------->

My understanding is it works like a "file system" so a deleted -foo will
create a free space for new words - am I right?
As I uploaded lot of stuff for my naive experiments and the word list
is now very long so the way how the list is maintained seems to be a
challenge..
Pito

----- PŮVODNÍ ZPRÁVA -----
Od: "Matthias Trute" <mt...@we...>
Komu: "Everything around amforth" <amf...@li...>
Předmět: Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4
Datum: 3.7.2010 - 13:55:30

> Hi Pito,
> 
> > My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding
> > is you may delete
> > > words from flash w/o burning new image.
> 
> Just do a 
> 
> marker -foo 
> : bar ;
> : baz bar ;
> ... use bar and baz and...
> 
> now get rid of bar
> 
> -foo
> 
> and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real difference
> from a
> users point of view is some planning with the -foo
> thing. Most of my
> source files define such markes...
> 
> > However let us mind the atmel
> > flash and eeprom endurance..
> 
> I still use the very first atmegas for developing,
> they have seen
> versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing a DIP
> package is
> easy...
> 
> Matthias

Re: [Amforth-devel] Starting with amforth v4

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Pito,

> My previous Q to the interactivity - so my understanding is you may delete
> words from flash w/o burning new image.

Just do a 

marker -foo 
: bar ;
: baz bar ;
... use bar and baz and...

now get rid of bar

-foo

and both bar/baz and -foo are gone. The only real difference from a
users point of view is some planning with the -foo thing. Most of my
source files define such markes...

> However let us mind the atmel
> flash and eeprom endurance..

I still use the very first atmegas for developing, they have seen
versions pre-0.1 and still work. And replacing a DIP package is
easy...

Matthias