Thread: Re: [Alephmodular-devel] Display Abstraction Landed?
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From: Br'fin <br...@ma...> - 2003-10-07 14:02:53
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I haven't gotten to look at things yet. My machine is suddenly choking/churning on cvs and I may need to reboot to do that. I won't get to that until later. If you do have the latest checkout properly then you should have files like alpehModular/marathon2/Display/Carbon/CDisplay_Carbon.cpp alpehModular/marathon2/Display/CFontSpec.h -Jeremy Parsons |
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From: Br'fin <br...@ma...> - 2003-10-07 14:13:33
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On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 10:10 AM, Timothy Collett wrote: >> I haven't gotten to look at things yet. My machine is suddenly >> choking/churning on cvs and I may need to reboot to do that. I won't >> get to that until later. >> > > Huh. Mine's been doing that, too, lately. Whenever PB is open with > the AM project, there's a cvs process taking as much CPU time as it > can steal, and lately when I've tried to do fink selfupdate cvs, it > just sits there for ages with cvs clogging the CPU, and eventually > spits out a weird error message, something like couldn't malloc() some > large number. > > Is this anything like what you're seeing? Yes, and I think it's a sf.net network problem at issue. Just trying to do a traceroute on the public CVS server started to breakdown like that too. Unable to find a connection out that way. I must say I'm surprised at the local churning that causes. -Jeremy Parsons |
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From: Timothy C. <da...@ma...> - 2003-10-07 20:20:07
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=20 On Tuesday, October 07, 2003, at 02:52PM, Br'fin <br...@ma...> wrote: > >On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 09:13 AM, Timothy Collett wrote: > >>> Mmm, I better go check saved games to see if I can find anything. In=20 >>> the meantime... do you know which version/date created the saved=20 >>> game? And could you email (directly to me at br...@ma...) the=20 >>> saved > game? >> >> It was saved with this version; however, I'm no longer entirely sure=20 >> that I've got the pertinent changes. Running cvs update -AdP should=20 >> bring my copy of the code fully up-to-date, yes? Only when I ran it,=20 >> it didn't seem to do much, and Project Builder seemed to think there=20 >> weren't any changes when I built the thing. >> >> I'll email you the save in a separate email. > >I still don't know what's up with the public CVS servers, certainly I=20 >can't manage to check anything out that way currently :/ Yeah, I got an email from sf.net Saturday detailing their CVS woes. I supp= ose this is just more of that. They said that it should be fixed soon.... = *crosses fingers* > >My own up-to-date version of AM seemed to have no problems loading your=20 >save game though. Hmm...that wasn't exactly the problem, I'm afraid. I think I can load a ga= me from the main menu. The sequence of events here was the following: start new game save die attempt to resurrect AM quits itself But this suggests that at least the savefile was good. >Yes, Networking is currently disabled. It was easier to stub it out=20 >then to grok everything and rewrite it in OpenTransport. The most=20 >likely thing to occur here is that we graft in A1's networking ;) Star protocol & all? :-) >With respect to replays, I don't know if there is a better way to do=20 >things. There are improvements we can make ... like eliminating the=20 >need for the Vidmaster's dance. But beyond that, it's hard storing all=20 >of the world state umpty times a whatever. On the other hand, even in=20 >modern games, I don't recall seeing that many replays in FPS ( and=20 >usually they work in a similar fashion when they do... reset simulation=20 >to x point in time, let run :) ) Yeah, I know. But...couldn't there be some more robustness in the format? = One thing that comes to mind is making the RNG a little more solid in sync= hronization, if this is possible/sensible (this would help net games, too).= Another thing is to put information about the environment used into the f= ilm. Ideally, each Shapes/Sounds/Map/Physics file would have some sort of = checksum that the films (and savefiles) could reference, and if it's not th= ere, there should be some sort of warning. =20 However, I'd say don't make it fatal: just tell them that it's not right, t= hen let them watch the poor marine running into walls if they want (it can = be a lot of fun, sometimes!). >Networking could probably receive a lot more help in this department=20 >and mostly I'm just clueless and don't quite understand it currently. :) Hmm...I'm afraid I'm not much help here. I know next to nothing about netw= orking. Woody, any thoughts? >We have to deal with resources as long as the file system does and we=20 >can run old M2 maps. This should cover a nice long while. It would be=20 >nice to mix things up to have a scenario bundle. However, even then=20 >this might be resource routines now working with an expanded format=20 >(that is hidden from the rest of the code.) I didn't say that quite right, did I? What I really mean is that we should= n't have any current file formats=97the ones we output=97using resources. = I think that having support for *loading* resource-based formats is great, = and should remain forever (at least where it makes sense to do so, like Map= and Images). But if any current formats (ie, savefiles & films) use resou= rces, the use of them should be abstracted away from the core, so it's easy= to plug in a new function to save them on Windows or Linux systems. Another issue I've been thinking about is the real modularization part...yo= u know, being able to just take the network bits for a pure game server, an= d the rendering code for Visual Mode of an editor, that kind of thing. How= much is that inherent in what you've been doing, and how much must be done= separately? More to the point, how much remains to be done? Anyway, once again, keep up the good work! Timothy Collett "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." -Teddy Roosevelt |
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From: Br'fin <br...@ma...> - 2003-10-07 21:02:03
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On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 04:16 PM, Timothy Collett wrote: >> My own up-to-date version of AM seemed to have no problems loading =20= >> your >> save game though. > > Hmm...that wasn't exactly the problem, I'm afraid. I think I can load = =20 > a game from the main menu. The sequence of events here was the =20 > following: > start new game > save > die > attempt to resurrect > AM quits itself > > But this suggests that at least the savefile was good. Ah, hmmmm, you know, I can't think if I ever tried that or not, hmm. >> Yes, Networking is currently disabled. It was easier to stub it out >> then to grok everything and rewrite it in OpenTransport. The most >> likely thing to occur here is that we graft in A1's networking ;) > > Star protocol & all? :-) Heh ;) >> With respect to replays, I don't know if there is a better way to do >> things. There are improvements we can make ... like eliminating the >> need for the Vidmaster's dance. But beyond that, it's hard storing = all >> of the world state umpty times a whatever. On the other hand, even in >> modern games, I don't recall seeing that many replays in FPS ( and >> usually they work in a similar fashion when they do... reset =20 >> simulation >> to x point in time, let run :) ) > > Yeah, I know. But...couldn't there be some more robustness in the =20 > format? One thing that comes to mind is making the RNG a little more =20= > solid in synchronization, if this is possible/sensible (this would =20 > help net games, too). Another thing is to put information about the =20= > environment used into the film. Ideally, each =20 > Shapes/Sounds/Map/Physics file would have some sort of checksum that =20= > the films (and savefiles) could reference, and if it's not there, =20 > there should be some sort of warning. Well, the replays are solid in terms of sync. But if something changes =20= then the replay is off. And classic OOS errors seem to come from =20 someone's emulation getting off for some unclear reason. As I recall, the wadfile based files (physics, map) do have this =20 checksum (hence how a replay or, I believe, even a saved game syncs up =20= with the right map.) The other two files, shapes and images do not and =20= the game tries to sync up with them (from the preferences) due to =20 modification date :/ Though any sort of checking on the files would help over the existing =20= code with respect to replays :) >> We have to deal with resources as long as the file system does and we >> can run old M2 maps. This should cover a nice long while. It would be >> nice to mix things up to have a scenario bundle. However, even then >> this might be resource routines now working with an expanded format >> (that is hidden from the rest of the code.) > > I didn't say that quite right, did I? What I really mean is that we =20= > shouldn't have any current file formats=97the ones we output=97using =20= > resources. I think that having support for *loading* resource-based =20= > formats is great, and should remain forever (at least where it makes =20= > sense to do so, like Map and Images). But if any current formats (ie, = =20 > savefiles & films) use resources, the use of them should be abstracted = =20 > away from the core, so it's easy to plug in a new function to save =20 > them on Windows or Linux systems. The only resource we save into files currently is a map preview in the =20= saved game that is supposed to show up in Open/Save dialogs and the =20 finder. What's annoying is this worked fine in OS X 1.0, but under 1.1, =20= Nav Services still created the preview, but the finder ignored it for =20= me :/ That preview is currently stored in a very platform specific way, =20 supposedly so that that platform can and should show it elsewhere :/ > Another issue I've been thinking about is the real modularization =20 > part...you know, being able to just take the network bits for a pure =20= > game server, and the rendering code for Visual Mode of an editor, that = =20 > kind of thing. How much is that inherent in what you've been doing, =20= > and how much must be done separately? More to the point, how much =20 > remains to be done? The Real modularization part is yet to come... I should dig up one of =20= the roadmaps and probably check into into the documentation directory. Here's probably the closest thing we have ;) http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/=20 forum.php?thread_id=3D1453618&forum_id=3D17900 I'm still trying to erase direct knowledge of Mac-isms from these main =20= game loops and so forth. It seems to be a step towards both modularity =20= and going cross-platform. Heh, going by those lists the next to work on would be sound =20 abstraction. > A rough order might be > Modularizing basic file capabilities > Modularizing basic display capabilities > Modularizing sound handling > Modularizing preferences > Modularizing gui > Modularizing game elements > Modularizing networking -Jeremy Parsons |
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From: Timothy C. <da...@ma...> - 2003-10-07 21:18:39
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>Well, the replays are solid in terms of sync. But if something changes >then the replay is off. And classic OOS errors seem to come from >someone's emulation getting off for some unclear reason. You know, I seem to remember something Woody was doing a while ago, while chasing down OOS problems in A1. Didn't he find some actual errors in the RNG code, that could, at least in theory, lead to OOS? Yeah, this past January 12 on marathon-devel, he said he thought it was a problem with Marathon's min() function. Maybe you should look into that? >The only resource we save into files currently is a map preview in the >saved game that is supposed to show up in Open/Save dialogs and the >finder. What's annoying is this worked fine in OS X 1.0, but under 1.1, >Nav Services still created the preview, but the finder ignored it for >me :/ Yeah, I remember that. I wonder why it did that? Very annoying. Maybe Panther will fix it? >That preview is currently stored in a very platform specific way, >supposedly so that that platform can and should show it elsewhere :/ In theory, that sounds good. >The Real modularization part is yet to come... I should dig up one of >the roadmaps and probably check into into the documentation directory. That's kind of what I thought. >> A rough order might be >> Modularizing basic file capabilities >> Modularizing basic display capabilities >> Modularizing sound handling >> Modularizing preferences >> Modularizing gui >> Modularizing game elements >> Modularizing networking Do you have any idea, at this point, what will be required a) as prerequisite for these, and b) to actually do them? Just curious. Timothy Collett He who asks is a fool for five minues. He who doesn't ask is a fool forever. |
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From: Br'fin <br...@ma...> - 2003-10-08 01:30:46
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On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 05:18 PM, Timothy Collett wrote: >> Well, the replays are solid in terms of sync. But if something changes >> then the replay is off. And classic OOS errors seem to come from >> someone's emulation getting off for some unclear reason. > > You know, I seem to remember something Woody was doing a while ago, > while chasing down OOS problems in A1. Didn't he find some actual > errors in the RNG code, that could, at least in theory, lead to OOS? > > Yeah, this past January 12 on marathon-devel, he said he thought it > was a problem with Marathon's min() function. Maybe you should look > into that? I have no idea. Currently AM plays back a batch of vidmaster films fine. However I have yet to get any M2 netfilms. The closest I have is an A1 netfilm on a M2 map, and that goes out of sync right towards the end. Possiblly due to differences in the two engines. >> The Real modularization part is yet to come... I should dig up one of >> the roadmaps and probably check into into the documentation directory. > > That's kind of what I thought. > >>> A rough order might be >>> Modularizing basic file capabilities >>> Modularizing basic display capabilities >>> Modularizing sound handling >>> Modularizing preferences >>> Modularizing gui >>> Modularizing game elements >>> Modularizing networking > > Do you have any idea, at this point, what will be required a) as > prerequisite for these, and b) to actually do them? Basic File handling and basic display are done. Resources falls into an advanced file handling and probably should be added to the list. Though I know not where. -Jeremy Parsons |
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From: Timothy C. <da...@ma...> - 2003-10-08 02:15:11
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> I have no idea. Currently AM plays back a batch of vidmaster films > fine. However I have yet to get any M2 netfilms. The closest I have is > an A1 netfilm on a M2 map, and that goes out of sync right towards the > end. Possiblly due to differences in the two engines. > Well, it shouldn't be too difficult for me to generate an M2 netfilm. I have a couple of computers here I should be able to do it on (of course, it won't be anything like a "real" netfilm, just one player running around, then the other). Would you like me to do this? If so, is there anything in particular you can think of that I should do? If you can't, I'll just try to do everything that comes to mind that might cause different situations. Timothy Collett Yesterday it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that. ~haiku~ |
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