I'm relatively new to p2p filesharing, although I did use Napster at work a lot and NEVER EVER ran into angry people, so I assume I was obeying the unwritten rules.
But how things are supposed to work on openNap is baffling me. Some servers specify maximum shared files and others minimum I know that most (all) clients have the ability to filter 'suspected' leechers (a very subjective thing if ever).
Recently I had someone tell me simply to "go away please" (wouldn't say why, just immediately ignored my chat. very friendly!!!), somone else considered me a leecher, cos i'm only sharing 300 files (that's approx 20% of my entire drive... OSX + s/w takes up 50% and I think it's reasonable to want the remaining 3Gb to do some work?!!), and I've now reason to suspect (other) users are denying me download access for reasons quite unbeknown to me. At least one of them I've already succesfully dl'd from.
Now there may be technical reasons for this which I've already asked about (see my post "0 users but user IS online") but regardless of this I can't help but think of netiquette and ask myself "what am I doing to offend?". Admittedly I haven't really actively looked, but in all the fshare related documentation and forums I've read so far I've read nothing about it.
Is there a good resource for this somewhere? A simple list of filesharing do's and don't is all I'd like so I can avoid treading on people toes in future. or at least, be aware that am!.
Cheers.
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Anonymous
-
2003-05-01
I can't give you a list or where to find one.. but i've discovered on my own, that in some cultures, if you dont ask, or thank them once your download starts, they'll cut you off after like 10 minutes.
I understand your dilema, I'll tell you what i've been told, and what I do sometimes. If your going to d/l a large (lets say 600mb) file from someone, and your not sharing anything similar, or anything in that genere (esp movies).. some people will not allow you to download. There are some that share 300 html files.. or copies of the same file to circumvent the "leech" filters. Sometimes, ill do random checks, and find a few of these.. and I usually ban those.
Some times, all you need to do is ask first.
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thanks for the tip, but what's that all about then?!!
If I've designated a file to share (whether its 1Kb or 1Tb large... in fact the bigger the file, the more this applies I'd say, cos if you haven't got the bw to share large files you shouldn't share em!), then I've implicitly stated my agreement for someone to dl it!!! if i expected people to *ask* before they download I might just as well share 1 file (an index) and send em the file by icq on request!
but furthermore, asking first isn't that easy, cos people aren't always at their machine and I for my part can't monitor my dl queues 24/7.
hmmm, thnaks for the advice though anyway :)
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Most servers specify minimum -- 5..50 is the usual range, but minshares of 500 is not unheard of. The maximum, if specified is usually 10,000, more than enough for well over 90% of the users.
Many clients do not have the ability to filter leeches; furthermore, leeches getting smarter. Yesterday I canceled a user who had 3000+ shares. The "only" problem was that all but five were .gif files in the range of 150 .. 30,000 bytes. The five were two larger gifs (100k+) and three 0 byte .tmp files!!!
I have seen people queuing more than they share, and also taking up all my bandwidth. I have 3 download slots open with one DL/user, and often see the same people log in from 3 different systems. I use the same name everywhere, so they should know that they are DL-ing from the same person. Depending on how much they share and how much they queued, they might get booted. (a warning against doing this is displayed at the very beginning of my file list)
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but "leeching" is a very subjective term... i share about 300 files (mostly mp3, but also a couple of larger images), not because I want to avoid uploads, but cos thats all I've got room for on my 10Gb drive which has to support an osx installation and often 2 projects-in-progress any any one time. so i wouldn't call myself a leecher, just a normal user not trying to make any claims...
if someone wants to refuse me access to their 500Mb image because I'm not sharing any myself, then I guess that's their perogative. I can sort of see the point, but I cant help but find it a bit childish. i can use hotline if i want to quibble about every dl i make.
maybe i'm missing the point? but wouldn't it all run a bit smoother if people thought more about the quality of what they share, rather than the quantity and less about whether someone is leeching? well, like i say, still relatively new to this, after a 2 year post napster absence, so maybe i'm just still very naive. but napster WAS more a friendlier place, I know that! i've tried on various occasions now asking people for help or advice (even following above advice once, to ask if i could dl a big file) and rarely do i get an answer. when i have done it's been someone just taking the piss, refusing to give a straight answer...
hmm, ok... guess i've answered my own question. i suppose it's therefore logical that most people are cynical!!!
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Ill tell you all straight out. There are alot of Japanese users who will cancel your download if you dont ask, leave them a message.
Aurgathor's example of a leech is probably the easiest to agree with, I doubt anyone will argue with that example. I often find people not sharing at all. I only am allocated 20k for up stream and usually reserve 5-8k for my own work. I will turn it up when im out of the house or asleep, but I dont think that it is bad for me to limit uploads to 1 per person, and 3-4 slots at one time. I have found that this is the best balance between sharing, and completely uploads as soon as possible. Also, those that are trying to acquire a 100kb file or some small music file usually will get started first. Its silly to wait 3 hours for a 300kb file.
Similarly, I used to be an avid user of Hotline, but when all the porn website password thing started, i left. Currently Xnap is the best option, especially when trading files with my WinMX user friends. There are many things that we as a community can do collectively to make things work better, but as with most things, not everyone agrees or believes in the same ettiquette.
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I've been sharing for a long time (and running a server, too) and had more than enough time to know the various types of people.
Leeching is not subjective at all when someone is sharing 0, or share crap deliberately. But there are some cases when it is subjective -- is someone with 5 shares a leech?!? That depends on what they share, what is their speed, and how many concurrent downloads they have. There are people who download a lot, and put out only some token share, usually under, or well under 100 files.
Anyhow, when my queue gets long, it's usually people whom I downloaded, or those with 1000+ shares that get the priority. But there are lots of other factors -- 500 nicely organized, mp3s (complete albums) worth more than 2000 messy shares. If I'm at my computer, I usually browse everyone in my queue (partly to see if they have anything I want). If I go to sleep I disconnect from the networks that allow people with 0 shares. ;-)
Anyway, I guess I shut up now -- enough is enough. ;-)
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Who the heck is going to stay in front of the computer all night long waiting to say thanks when the file starts downloading? Files could be queued for hours. I don't think the Japanese are any different from other downloaders or uploaders. They must upload plenty of my Japanese mp3 song files and don't say thanks. Like I really care. I want them or anyone else to have those files or I wouldn't put them online. I'm not happy when someone trying to upload from my machine isn't successful or gets some sort of socket error. I think I've tried to say thanks a few times but either the user wasn't at the machine or maybe didn't even have chat turned on.
It seems that I do get pushed down in queues for some reason but I still have more good experiences than bad ones.
I share about 2800 mp3's and I don't allow leeching. I'm asking they share 10 lousy files. I don't have any malice towards leechers, I'd just like them to start sharing files for the sake of the community. They can easily share files if only by ripping one CD or vinyl album of their own.
I don't care for servers that tell me I must go to their site, but I don't really seem to get blacklisted. They probably have a reason for asking (maybe to subsidize their servers or something) but I can't be bothered to find out.
I can't stand the server message of "We don't like your client, get this one". That sux, big time.
I see an awful lot of server messages "Connection refused". I suppose I don't share enough files, the right files or have the wrong client. Jeez.
I'm only downloading a few songs a week at most nowadays, so I don't care one way or another. My nearby central libraries have at least 6,000 CDs (English, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, etc.) to borrow if I wanted to rip music that badly.
I leave my XNap on all night long with a cable connection and no throttling (only two uploads per user at a time but six in total). I'm happy if the people get what they can and enjoy it. What's the need for all the Catch 22's of downloading.
CO
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Hey man... thank you!!! At last... your post is like a breath of fresh air.... there really IS someone else out there sharing (pun not intended :) my philosophy on filesharing!!!
And let me test a theory... do you use linux or mac?
at this very moment i am FUMING cos I have just caught redhanded "my definition" of a leecher:
I've been queueing for over 1 week with this guy and another one (equally to blame i think) trying to complete a 550Mb download. This is all I've had going. Cos that's all I want. And in the meantime I've probably had about 10Gb ul'd from me. But just now I saw myself go from #1 to #34 (sth i've suspected all along), so I politely asked why and after the usual piss taking pretending he didn't understand me, he explained: he wasn't interested in my files!!!
In other words, his files are only there so he can simaltaneously dl (ie leech!) from other people. Well sorry but that's bullshit!!!
ALL of my files are there cos I want to SHARE them. For free!!! I expect NOTHING in return other than the simple request that other people do the same!!! I too have a minimal anti-leecher setting of 10 files (a token effort), cos the real leechers are those who never let you dl unless theyre getting something from you.
But that's it isn't it... I thought this was all about "Sharing", but no, it seems that for the majority of users (who all seem too use one and the same particular os... and until now my theory is 100% watertight) it's about "Trading"... "here I've got this, this and this but what are you going to give to ME?!!"
I'm very concious of using this technical forum for venting my rants, but I have still not found a suitable forum for discussing this. Can anyone please recommend somewhere cos I really want to air my views on this. I hate the mentality that seems to govern this whole fileshare thing.
cheers, r. (who does post meaningfull technical post here too. honest! :-)
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I totally agree with you that some "sharers" simply aren't... Some should rather be labelled as "file capitalists" : they are only there to exploit you and give back as little as possible.
Personally, I share my CD collection and other MP3 files (amounting to 3000 mp3s, 10 GB worth of stuff encoded in VBR (160 minimum), organized by artist and album). I wouldn't say these are worthless baits, even though some might not like my musical tastes. Despite this, I often see my queue number bumped upwards... and I can't do nothing about this. Especially since I'm not sitting beside this server of mine all day long to check what is going on.
This behaviour is infuriating... and it probably is the preamble to the end of the file sharing era.
FWIW, I use xNap on Mac OS X (latest versions of each).
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"But just now I saw myself go from #1 to #34 (sth i've suspected all along), "
Technical question : how do you see your position in queue with xnap ? I know winmx shows you, but I wasn't aware this was possible with xnap !
P.S. : about the netiquette argument, it seems so obvious to me that the only way this thing can work is if everybody shares with no filtering except for leechers. Any other kind of censorship only destroys the spirit of the P2P philosophy. I let anybody dl my stuff, but when I have the time to monitor i do privilege those I am dl-ing from because it seems right to me to do so. I'm not closing on the others, just making them wait a little more, and after all ,that's why you have a hotlist feature on xnap, though i wouldn't be too sure about it's effectiveness, at least it works as a reminder for me, as a sort of VIP list ....
I don0t limit anyhting else...if a guy wants to dl 10 files from me, i don't really see why I should manage his dls so that he only does one at a time. I let the xnap "random" management of my queuing deal with that. About bandwidth, i have noticed that sometimes i can give 25kbs for uploads, and still keep a very satisfactory dl bandwidth...other times i will have to bring down the upload bandwitdth because it jeopardises my dls too much. I don't really know the prameters that make these differences, but they do seem to vary quite often.
My best bet to keep a 30kps dl rate is to fix the upload rate at a maximum of 10/15kbs, but i know of paranoid xnap users who keep theri upload rate at 1 kbs because they may just miss half a kb of theri download rate if they crank it up.....in my mind that sucks !
Zap.
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I'm relatively new to p2p filesharing, although I did use Napster at work a lot and NEVER EVER ran into angry people, so I assume I was obeying the unwritten rules.
But how things are supposed to work on openNap is baffling me. Some servers specify maximum shared files and others minimum I know that most (all) clients have the ability to filter 'suspected' leechers (a very subjective thing if ever).
Recently I had someone tell me simply to "go away please" (wouldn't say why, just immediately ignored my chat. very friendly!!!), somone else considered me a leecher, cos i'm only sharing 300 files (that's approx 20% of my entire drive... OSX + s/w takes up 50% and I think it's reasonable to want the remaining 3Gb to do some work?!!), and I've now reason to suspect (other) users are denying me download access for reasons quite unbeknown to me. At least one of them I've already succesfully dl'd from.
Now there may be technical reasons for this which I've already asked about (see my post "0 users but user IS online") but regardless of this I can't help but think of netiquette and ask myself "what am I doing to offend?". Admittedly I haven't really actively looked, but in all the fshare related documentation and forums I've read so far I've read nothing about it.
Is there a good resource for this somewhere? A simple list of filesharing do's and don't is all I'd like so I can avoid treading on people toes in future. or at least, be aware that am!.
Cheers.
I can't give you a list or where to find one.. but i've discovered on my own, that in some cultures, if you dont ask, or thank them once your download starts, they'll cut you off after like 10 minutes.
I understand your dilema, I'll tell you what i've been told, and what I do sometimes. If your going to d/l a large (lets say 600mb) file from someone, and your not sharing anything similar, or anything in that genere (esp movies).. some people will not allow you to download. There are some that share 300 html files.. or copies of the same file to circumvent the "leech" filters. Sometimes, ill do random checks, and find a few of these.. and I usually ban those.
Some times, all you need to do is ask first.
thanks for the tip, but what's that all about then?!!
If I've designated a file to share (whether its 1Kb or 1Tb large... in fact the bigger the file, the more this applies I'd say, cos if you haven't got the bw to share large files you shouldn't share em!), then I've implicitly stated my agreement for someone to dl it!!! if i expected people to *ask* before they download I might just as well share 1 file (an index) and send em the file by icq on request!
but furthermore, asking first isn't that easy, cos people aren't always at their machine and I for my part can't monitor my dl queues 24/7.
hmmm, thnaks for the advice though anyway :)
Most servers specify minimum -- 5..50 is the usual range, but minshares of 500 is not unheard of. The maximum, if specified is usually 10,000, more than enough for well over 90% of the users.
Many clients do not have the ability to filter leeches; furthermore, leeches getting smarter. Yesterday I canceled a user who had 3000+ shares. The "only" problem was that all but five were .gif files in the range of 150 .. 30,000 bytes. The five were two larger gifs (100k+) and three 0 byte .tmp files!!!
I have seen people queuing more than they share, and also taking up all my bandwidth. I have 3 download slots open with one DL/user, and often see the same people log in from 3 different systems. I use the same name everywhere, so they should know that they are DL-ing from the same person. Depending on how much they share and how much they queued, they might get booted. (a warning against doing this is displayed at the very beginning of my file list)
but "leeching" is a very subjective term... i share about 300 files (mostly mp3, but also a couple of larger images), not because I want to avoid uploads, but cos thats all I've got room for on my 10Gb drive which has to support an osx installation and often 2 projects-in-progress any any one time. so i wouldn't call myself a leecher, just a normal user not trying to make any claims...
if someone wants to refuse me access to their 500Mb image because I'm not sharing any myself, then I guess that's their perogative. I can sort of see the point, but I cant help but find it a bit childish. i can use hotline if i want to quibble about every dl i make.
maybe i'm missing the point? but wouldn't it all run a bit smoother if people thought more about the quality of what they share, rather than the quantity and less about whether someone is leeching? well, like i say, still relatively new to this, after a 2 year post napster absence, so maybe i'm just still very naive. but napster WAS more a friendlier place, I know that! i've tried on various occasions now asking people for help or advice (even following above advice once, to ask if i could dl a big file) and rarely do i get an answer. when i have done it's been someone just taking the piss, refusing to give a straight answer...
hmm, ok... guess i've answered my own question. i suppose it's therefore logical that most people are cynical!!!
Ill tell you all straight out. There are alot of Japanese users who will cancel your download if you dont ask, leave them a message.
Aurgathor's example of a leech is probably the easiest to agree with, I doubt anyone will argue with that example. I often find people not sharing at all. I only am allocated 20k for up stream and usually reserve 5-8k for my own work. I will turn it up when im out of the house or asleep, but I dont think that it is bad for me to limit uploads to 1 per person, and 3-4 slots at one time. I have found that this is the best balance between sharing, and completely uploads as soon as possible. Also, those that are trying to acquire a 100kb file or some small music file usually will get started first. Its silly to wait 3 hours for a 300kb file.
Similarly, I used to be an avid user of Hotline, but when all the porn website password thing started, i left. Currently Xnap is the best option, especially when trading files with my WinMX user friends. There are many things that we as a community can do collectively to make things work better, but as with most things, not everyone agrees or believes in the same ettiquette.
I've been sharing for a long time (and running a server, too) and had more than enough time to know the various types of people.
Leeching is not subjective at all when someone is sharing 0, or share crap deliberately. But there are some cases when it is subjective -- is someone with 5 shares a leech?!? That depends on what they share, what is their speed, and how many concurrent downloads they have. There are people who download a lot, and put out only some token share, usually under, or well under 100 files.
Anyhow, when my queue gets long, it's usually people whom I downloaded, or those with 1000+ shares that get the priority. But there are lots of other factors -- 500 nicely organized, mp3s (complete albums) worth more than 2000 messy shares. If I'm at my computer, I usually browse everyone in my queue (partly to see if they have anything I want). If I go to sleep I disconnect from the networks that allow people with 0 shares. ;-)
Anyway, I guess I shut up now -- enough is enough. ;-)
Who the heck is going to stay in front of the computer all night long waiting to say thanks when the file starts downloading? Files could be queued for hours. I don't think the Japanese are any different from other downloaders or uploaders. They must upload plenty of my Japanese mp3 song files and don't say thanks. Like I really care. I want them or anyone else to have those files or I wouldn't put them online. I'm not happy when someone trying to upload from my machine isn't successful or gets some sort of socket error. I think I've tried to say thanks a few times but either the user wasn't at the machine or maybe didn't even have chat turned on.
It seems that I do get pushed down in queues for some reason but I still have more good experiences than bad ones.
I share about 2800 mp3's and I don't allow leeching. I'm asking they share 10 lousy files. I don't have any malice towards leechers, I'd just like them to start sharing files for the sake of the community. They can easily share files if only by ripping one CD or vinyl album of their own.
I don't care for servers that tell me I must go to their site, but I don't really seem to get blacklisted. They probably have a reason for asking (maybe to subsidize their servers or something) but I can't be bothered to find out.
I can't stand the server message of "We don't like your client, get this one". That sux, big time.
I see an awful lot of server messages "Connection refused". I suppose I don't share enough files, the right files or have the wrong client. Jeez.
I'm only downloading a few songs a week at most nowadays, so I don't care one way or another. My nearby central libraries have at least 6,000 CDs (English, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, etc.) to borrow if I wanted to rip music that badly.
I leave my XNap on all night long with a cable connection and no throttling (only two uploads per user at a time but six in total). I'm happy if the people get what they can and enjoy it. What's the need for all the Catch 22's of downloading.
CO
Hey man... thank you!!! At last... your post is like a breath of fresh air.... there really IS someone else out there sharing (pun not intended :) my philosophy on filesharing!!!
And let me test a theory... do you use linux or mac?
at this very moment i am FUMING cos I have just caught redhanded "my definition" of a leecher:
I've been queueing for over 1 week with this guy and another one (equally to blame i think) trying to complete a 550Mb download. This is all I've had going. Cos that's all I want. And in the meantime I've probably had about 10Gb ul'd from me. But just now I saw myself go from #1 to #34 (sth i've suspected all along), so I politely asked why and after the usual piss taking pretending he didn't understand me, he explained: he wasn't interested in my files!!!
In other words, his files are only there so he can simaltaneously dl (ie leech!) from other people. Well sorry but that's bullshit!!!
ALL of my files are there cos I want to SHARE them. For free!!! I expect NOTHING in return other than the simple request that other people do the same!!! I too have a minimal anti-leecher setting of 10 files (a token effort), cos the real leechers are those who never let you dl unless theyre getting something from you.
But that's it isn't it... I thought this was all about "Sharing", but no, it seems that for the majority of users (who all seem too use one and the same particular os... and until now my theory is 100% watertight) it's about "Trading"... "here I've got this, this and this but what are you going to give to ME?!!"
I'm very concious of using this technical forum for venting my rants, but I have still not found a suitable forum for discussing this. Can anyone please recommend somewhere cos I really want to air my views on this. I hate the mentality that seems to govern this whole fileshare thing.
cheers, r. (who does post meaningfull technical post here too. honest! :-)
I totally agree with you that some "sharers" simply aren't... Some should rather be labelled as "file capitalists" : they are only there to exploit you and give back as little as possible.
Personally, I share my CD collection and other MP3 files (amounting to 3000 mp3s, 10 GB worth of stuff encoded in VBR (160 minimum), organized by artist and album). I wouldn't say these are worthless baits, even though some might not like my musical tastes. Despite this, I often see my queue number bumped upwards... and I can't do nothing about this. Especially since I'm not sitting beside this server of mine all day long to check what is going on.
This behaviour is infuriating... and it probably is the preamble to the end of the file sharing era.
FWIW, I use xNap on Mac OS X (latest versions of each).
"I see an awful lot of server messages "Connection refused". I suppose I don't share enough files"
That message has not much to do with file sharing -- you can get it either when the server is very busy, or if it's not running at all, etc.
"But just now I saw myself go from #1 to #34 (sth i've suspected all along), "
Technical question : how do you see your position in queue with xnap ? I know winmx shows you, but I wasn't aware this was possible with xnap !
P.S. : about the netiquette argument, it seems so obvious to me that the only way this thing can work is if everybody shares with no filtering except for leechers. Any other kind of censorship only destroys the spirit of the P2P philosophy. I let anybody dl my stuff, but when I have the time to monitor i do privilege those I am dl-ing from because it seems right to me to do so. I'm not closing on the others, just making them wait a little more, and after all ,that's why you have a hotlist feature on xnap, though i wouldn't be too sure about it's effectiveness, at least it works as a reminder for me, as a sort of VIP list ....
I don0t limit anyhting else...if a guy wants to dl 10 files from me, i don't really see why I should manage his dls so that he only does one at a time. I let the xnap "random" management of my queuing deal with that. About bandwidth, i have noticed that sometimes i can give 25kbs for uploads, and still keep a very satisfactory dl bandwidth...other times i will have to bring down the upload bandwitdth because it jeopardises my dls too much. I don't really know the prameters that make these differences, but they do seem to vary quite often.
My best bet to keep a 30kps dl rate is to fix the upload rate at a maximum of 10/15kbs, but i know of paranoid xnap users who keep theri upload rate at 1 kbs because they may just miss half a kb of theri download rate if they crank it up.....in my mind that sucks !
Zap.