PCGen :: An RPG Character Generator

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how would i go about putting together the formula, one of the things im
trying to do is for example at lvl 1-5 they have a, b, c , and d for
special
abilitys, but at 6-8 they lose a, and c, but gain e, f, and g. sorry its
so
vague im at a public comp right now so i dont have my files handy


TheLoonie
p.s. will repost this comment from home after getting a better example
out of my files

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exactly; the problem is that they want to be able to have a
template apply at each CL or HD increase. It seems to me
that simply adding a BONUS equation to the template
should do what they want, as long as the formula is
correct. Reread the whole thread if you feel lost; it can
certainly be a bit confusing!

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Isn't HD in a formula a reference to monsterclass HD? I
know TL doesn't count TYPE:Monster class levels. If so, just
use HD+TL in the formulas....

Tir Gwaith

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I'm with you, Tir; the question is whether my idea below
would work in place of creating another tag...

"Possibility: Create a variable in the template that uses the
HD. I think this would work correctly for the desired
behavior."

i.e. the variable (or bonus) uses the HD to modify some
other property such as resistances, etc.

--Sage Sam

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So ANOTHER tag for level dependant items besides HD and
LEVEL? Is taht what I'm hearing?

I am not seeing the need for this.

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Tir comments?

K
TM SB

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OK, I guess we have an official answer, then. (BTW, for
anyone who thinks "The Sage" refers to sage_sam, kingpaul
was referring to WotC's official info source, who writes the
FAQs etc.)

So, this means that this should be converted to a FREQ for
theloonie's request for a tag that refers to all HD. Except
that I think there is a tag that does that: HD. It just
doesn't do it in Templates, which as it turns out is correct.

Possibility: Create a variable in the template that uses the
HD. I think this would work correctly for the desired
behavior.

K: Would you check with Tir or some other LST monkey to
let us know if this would work correctly, plz...?

--Sage Sam

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Well, I submitted this question to the Sage (in part
because of this discussion, and in part because of
discussions during my gaming sessions):

"I've had numerous arguments with friends over this
issue, and no one seems to be able to agree. Let's
assume that you have a celestial centaur with 4 levels of
ranger. Now, does the celestial abilities that are tied to
HD go off of the creature's HD only, or do you combine
the creature HD with the class HD. In the above
example, would the celestial centaur/ranger 4 gain
which set of celestial abilities: 1) acid, cold, electricity
resistance 10 and DR 5/+1 (as a 4 HD centaur) or 2)
acid, cold, electricity resistance 15 and DR 5/+2 (as a 4
HD centaur/4 HD ranger)?"

His response:

"Class levels won't improve such abilities."

Guess I was wrong.

Paul W. King
OGL/PL SB and BoD

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Well, I submitted this question to the Sage (in part
because of this discussion, and in part because of
discussions during my gaming sessions):

"I've had numerous arguments with friends over this
issue, and no one seems to be able to agree. Let's
assume that you have a celestial centaur with 4 levels of
ranger. Now, does the celestial abilities that are tied to
HD go off of the creature's HD only, or do you combine
the creature HD with the class HD. In the above
example, would the celestial centaur/ranger 4 gain
which set of celestial abilities: 1) acid, cold, electricity
resistance 10 and DR 5/+1 (as a 4 HD centaur) or 2)
acid, cold, electricity resistance 15 and DR 5/+2 (as a 4
HD centaur/4 HD ranger)?"

His response:

"Class levels won't improve such abilities."

Guess I was wrong.

Paul W. King
OGL/PL SB and BoD

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ok so its apparently not SRD to have that tag do that, can another tag
be added that would take all "hit dice"(including char lvls) and
function
in the same manner? otherwise ill have to make 20 templates and
switch each lvl... (i just used the celestial as an example... not as what

im trying to make work)

2nd option: can a house rule feature be added that would make HD
include all "hit dice"? in our campain we count a players class
hit dice
as part of his total hit dice

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But templates don't pertain to classes when multi-classing,
they just had the ECL.

As for the improvement in creatures, the celestial template
deals with HD, not monster levels or class levels, which is
why I say you add them together to determine what the
overall bonus would be.

Paul W. King
OGL/PL SB and BoD

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That's true, the SRD says those things. However, the SRD
also explicitly states the following for celestials...

"Celestial" is a template that can be added to any corporeal
creature of nonevil alignment (referred to hereafter as
the "base creature").

Note that you add the template to the "base creature". The
template is applied prior to adding character levels. Things
like Challenge ratings are based on race, then adding the
number of character levels.

Advancing as characters does not increase monster
abilities. This is explicitly stated in the monster overview
under "Improvement" (For reference,
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/srdcreatureoverview.rtf) :

"Note that if the creature acquires a character class, it
improves according to its class, not its type. "

Further, under "Creatures With Character Classes" :

If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules
for multiclassing. The creature’s character level equals the
number of class levels it has, plus the total Hit Dice for
such beings.
A creature’s monster class is always its favored class, and
the creature never suffers XP penalties for having it.
Additional Hit Dice from a character class never affect a
creature’s size.

If it is not affecting the size, it also should not affect any
other monstrous characteristics. Just like multiclassing.

--Sage Sam

PS: my apologies for not checking the srd earlier, but it
wasn't convenient until I got my RoadRunner....! =)

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OK, I've done some thinking about this (probably took too
much time, and for that I apologize). Let's take the celestial
template example given us. Per the table in that section
(http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/srdmonsterstemplates.rtf)
of the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd),
it shows that celestials get abilities at: 1-3, 4-7, 8-11 and 12+
HD. Now, when creatures take classes, they get one HD per
level taken, just like when monsters advance their monster
abilities, they get additional HD.

Therefore, for argument's sake, let's take a celestial ogre that
has 4 levels in barbarian. An ogre's HD is 4d8+8 (the +8
coming from Con bonus). 4 levels of barbarian give it 4d12.
This ogre would then be an 8 HD creature, getting acid, cold
and electricity resistance of 15 and DR of 5/+2.

Does that help?

Paul W. King
OGL/PL SB and BoD

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before this gets closed, do we have a tag that would
function like the HD tag, but work for all hit dice, not
just monster dice? that was the point of my origional
question...

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Contacted Paul King off boards about this.

K
TM SB

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Per the monster FAQ (first item on the list), monster HD
count only for items dependent on total hd such as feats
and stat increases. (There was another bug along these
lines some time ago that I fixed.)

Adding character levels is exactly that--adding a character
level. It's like taking your base race and all its bonuses
and then advancing as a character.

Another way of looking at it is multiclassing. You don't get
the bonuses for being a level 4 rogue when you advance
from rog3/wiz3 to rog3/wiz4. =)

This is the first item in the monster FAQ and also fits with
the DMG section on monsters as characters. So even
though I'm sure the FAQ is outside the SRD (and of course
much of the DMG is), I'm quite confident that PCGen is
actually handling this correctly.

I recommend that this item be closed as invalid.

--Sage Sam

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sort of, in that example it was putting a (2) after
things... when i tried it all it gave me was the things
granted at lvl1 anything with a "HD:?-? type tage didnt
work for class lvls... just for monster hd... now im not
entirely up to date on what you are allowed to add from
the material yet, but basicly what im looking for is a tag
that would behave like "HD" does but apply to all lvls
wether they are monster lvls or not. if you would like a
better explanation of what im trying to accomplish then
e-mail me directly at theloonie@netzero.net and ill send
a detailed explanation

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Is this pretty similar to the bug 588777?

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ok.. looking at this another way, can a tag be added that would act
just like the "HD" tag but act on total lvl (there is a
"LEVEL" tag but its
a bit different in behavior) that way templates that are based on
monster hit dice behave normaly, and templates based on total hit
dice behave the way they should. this way people who make custom
templates can have things show up at the level they are supposed to.

thanks again for all the hard work
and please excuse my spelling problems.. typing with a newborn
on your lap is not the easyest thing in the world :-)

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Well, leveling in general is therotically forbidden by the
d20 stl so I'm not sure how you got approved for d20 in the
first place. This is murky ground. Could somebody in the
know (metron_monk?) please elaborate here?

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does the fact that you had to look outside the allowed material for
clarifacation make this an item we cant have implemented or is there
enough explanation within the allowed stuff to make it work for class lvls

too? I havent kept up on what we're allowed to use and what we're not.
also.. if i wanted to coustomize the templates to get around this for
player char's could I switch the "HD"(hit dice) for total lvl...
and what is
the code abbrevation of total lvl(I assume "TL")

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From the PHB 2nd printing:
Hit Die (HD): A die rolled to generate a creature's hit
point total. The term Hit Dice is synonymous with character
level for spells, magic items, and magical effects that
affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures.

I choose to interpret this to mean levels = hd for special
abilities as well because of the fact that at levelup,
players get a new hit die of the type specified by their
character class.

I back this up as follows (warning: non srd/d20sdl allowable
content)
PHB Chapter 9, Level Advancement:
"6. Hit Points: Roll a Hit Die, ... and add the total roll
to his or her total hit points"

Given that I had to leave the bounds of the d20 stl to
backup my point, I'm not sure where this can go.

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I don't think they do, hmm, can someone with a rulebook
check on this please?

K
TM

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I would assume so.
PC levels are considered to be hit dice as well.

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If I add monster levels this adds/modifies the abilities. It
appears that PC levels do not. Should they?