Dungeon Crawl Reference

We are making troves more interesting. They will stay. Feedback was useful!

Lemuel: we are cutting branches without compensation. Yes, the many new
vaults may provide more loot in comparison, but it's not as if loot balance
was on a one-way road.

Sorear, that would be true if you were also increasing the cost to players
of not having gold, e.g. if you made some existing branches require a big
fee to enter. But as it is, the player gets everything they got before,
PLUS the additional option to spend a bunch of gold for a bunch of good
items.

Think of it this way. Imagine 100 games played in two versions of the
game, one with troves, one without. Would you expect the mean quality of
equipment in the two samples to be the same, or will it be higher in the
version with troves?

Lemuel

Troves don't increase the overall level of treasure in the game, though.
They provide an option to exchange a large amount of one kind of treasure
(gold) for a large amount of another kind of treasure (items). The days
when gold is irrelevant and can be ignored as a cost are over.

I don't win often, but that's because I am a sloppy player.

The point is that the overall level of treasure in the game should not be
increased unless the designers have made a conscious decision to increase
it. Assuming they haven't made such a decision, increased treasure from one
source should be balanced by reduced treasure somewhere else. If you don't
do this, you end up with the power creep that is a persistent problem in
many games.

Lemuel

Lemuel: It feels that the game has become too simple and full of treasure
so you win too often?

The "good item" fee could be interesting. It fits the principle I've
suggested in the past, that permanent item loss would be a good addition to
the game provided the player had some control over it.

The larger point is that you guys should think about the overall quantity
of loot. Regardless of the changes discussed here, the only way the
addition of troves can be balanced is by reduced treasure generation
elsewhere.

Lemuel

Troves loot has been changed in trunk. By the way, here is another idea
that I'd like to see: the trove might depend (instead of the fee or in
addition to it) that you deliver some good item which could be from
inventory or the stash list, including shops.

The decision that I'd like to see is this: you find troves early on (if at
all). At a point where you will lack the money. Now can either try to
collect the money (this includes doing Orc and not spending any money), or
you don't.

There is no decision. If you have the money, you pay.

If removing them is out of the question, it's out of the question. But
please do keep in mind that the addition of the various portal vaults has
resulted in a major upward shift in the treasure curve. If troves are going
to stay (along with ossuaries, ice caves and other vaults with significant
loot) then you really need to reduce all floor item generation by a third
or so.

Lemuel

Ziggurat fees are more "come back later, bro" than "haha fuck you, bro."

Thanks for the explanation! Doesn't sound nearly as interesting as
Ziggurats that also have an entry fee (though probably a higher one)...

What if:

-There is a minimum entry fee, "...but the true costs may be higher still"

-Sectioned into a few sub-rooms, which each have a sub-fee; you do not get
to know these sub-fees until after you pay to enter (and leaving closes the
trove forever)

-Entering one of the sub-rooms costs money; if you elect not to pay, there
is an OOD threat of some kind that will attempt to evict you.

-Ero

1) You find them.
2) If you have the fee, you go in and get a bunch of items acquired for
you.
3) If you don't, it slowly disappears.

Wait, so what are troves about if not nasty monsters guarding treasure? I'm
completely out of the loop... *sighs*

jpeg

The interesting decision is whether or not you spend all your money for the
chance that you might get something nice. If the acquirement weight is too
heavy, then it can always be tweaked down again; that's not an issue. I'd
personally be against putting OOD monsters in them.

They can add interesting decisions: if you see an early trove, you will
lack the money. This could prompt you to do Orc. And not to spend money in
shops. And there is also gold acquirement.

However, I have to agree that the lack of a threat puzzled me, too.
Removing the troves is out of the question, however. For even if we think
they are not okay, they can be changed. For example, I would like it if you
faced a definite single OOD monster, e,g, a dragon, a hell knight, a
draconian etc. Fee could be lowered -- the point is that
(a) you may be able to kill that thing, if you use all your resources, and
(b) if you don't, you still paid some gold.

dpeg

I sort of agree.