ADempiere ERP Business Suite

Hi community - the "fork posterita" discussion has raised so many issues that I think is very important to call for a council meeting.

When I mean council meeting is:
- Is very important that council has QUORUM there - at least half+1 of council members must be there

When I mean OPEN is:
- Everybody can assist to meeting and everybody has equal voice

______________________________

Date and Time: to schedule - please propose

Agenda:

- EXTENSION POLICY:
* Must Adempiere be "extension friendly" or "extension predator"?
* What are the conditions for extension developers?
* What are the conditions to consider integration to Adempiere (fork) of an extension?

I think this is VERY IMPORTANT as in some way is defining the future of the project - how people will reach Adempiere - what type of businesses we welcome here, and what type of businesses we dislike here.

At this moment it's very unclear - and I think extension developers need (and deserve) a stable and clear definition of this.

Currently we have some extensions:
- Posterita
- Localization Brazil
- Localization Colombia
- other Localizations ....

Do we want this project to have an extension ecosystem? Or do we want this project to have a centralized management of all extensions (ala compiere)?


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

Hi,

so if am right this thread is just to fix a date for meeting and maybe add some points to the list what will be discussed ?

Kind Regards,

Dominik

Carlos,
May modify the agenda abit so as to make it 'maintanable' discussion or meeting?

The statement that POSterita is an extension will be controversial and will engross alot of energy on tiny details. Why not you draft out the policies in our charter page http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Project_Charter here which i ended up doing alone (sorry Colin, but you help in the proof reading! :> )?

Can i suggest a more important and far reaching agenda that more people will prefer to follow?

AGENDA:
Dialog with Posterita about joining back as one big fish.

red1

Goodness Carlos you do not read! Mama Mia!

You accused me last nite that we have no policy and demanded proofs but when i click on http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Project_Charter i notice there are alot on contributors rights and so on, lots of proofs that policy was there long time before written by some old stupid tutorial writer who cannot even lock up his PDFs properly.

Its ok, perhaps you were too busy watching whales :-)

red1

Dominik - yes, to set a date and maybe add some points.

Redhuan - this is not a matter of Posterita or Trifon.

I said you today in IRC - this is not personal - this is not about Trifon - this is not personal - this is not about Posterita.

This is thinking further - this is about clear extension policies of the project.

Extension policies will affect many stakeholders.

IMHO, if we're going to be extension friendly then we can think in a future where we can have 5 POS's for different industries - where we can have 3 warehouse management - where we can have 5 BI solutions. etc. This is a potential ecosystem. We just need time and good policies to make this happen.

We have the power that we're not for profit - we don't have investors asking us to return them the US$6M (like Compiere) or the €18M (like OpenBravo) - so we're in a better position to empower extension developers and create a proper ecosystem for them. My guess is with more extension developers - Adempiere can be installed in more industries of different types - Adempiere will have more options to choose - etc.


Now, if we're going to be extension predators (that's the term I coined to mean that we don't like extensions - we want everything in core, and we don't allow extension developers to keep trademarks, etc):
In this case the future I can foresee is that there won't be companies developing extensions. Every good extension is going to be integrated in trunk and then we'll have a different ecosystem.

Please the discussion Posterita / Trifon is a different thing - it doesn't deserve a council meeting.
What I'm calling here is something that I consider really important for the project.

And yes - I read the charter - where are the policies for extension developers in the charter? I can't see them. Sorry - I don't read where in the charter is mentioned that commercial companies are not allowed, where in the charter is mentioned that extensions are not allowed, and they'll be integrated into trunk if successful.

What I said you on IRC (or at least what I was trying to say) is that this project construct the policies through flames. If a policy about extensions were CLEARLY ESTABLISHED then the posterita/trifon issue wouldn't have raised.
But that's ok - this is the way we have chosen to conduct this project - so, let's do it properly. I see a potential problem, I call for a meeting and want to hear opinions from everywhere - no dictators here, community wisdom welcome.

Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

Carlos,
Answer these questions:
* Where is a rejected request for anyone's postings in Project Charter?
* Did we not publish our ModelValidator and Extension practice and rules in our forums and wiki?
** Did i personally reject them? Did not i personally request Trifon/Victor to follow such rules?

Why IRC... it gets hot there with such discussion. And there is no emergency on such issue. Mostly accepted. Just that in practice it takes bazaar.

What Trifon did was half way. He admited it. "No time, pls give me time or pay me". "Do anyone wants to do them? Please ask or readme".

We then wait for bazaar, and often community comes in to help finish them.

Release Early, Update Often < -- Now that is a rule. Should we debate that?

Its best you proceed to publish your suggestions and bazaar accept or debate them. I see no issue for Council meeting which should only convene for more important issue. Such as is Posterita a fork or not?

red1

Ok, since my request for change of agenda has been overruled, i rephrase my request:

Can we discuss on what conventions to govern our behaviour in the bazaar? Such as:

1) Expressing commercial interests and tying in with codes. I.e. Asking for money to finish code. Should we just ignore his request and examine the code and take it at its merit?

2) Should we ask for permission for taking someone else code? I think we should. But if that taker is not available (he drops by, left the code and disappear) do we act like a govt dept and throw his form in the trash and say"NEXT!!!" Or we try to ask on behalf of his work or request for maintainers.
For example the fyracle port case. Our friend from Poland drops us the port and we accepted it. But when there are no maintainers we drop it out. I think that is ok. Input and output of bazaar.

3) If someone or project says that we are no longer a bazaar, should we entertain that party's points or issues or even arguments?

The main convention about bazaar is what has been known long ago and all this while. This is the age of Always Under Construction. You start, others finish. If it aint broken dont fix it. If someone fix it halfway dont criticise him, help him or abstain. If someone point u to something important, dont kill the messenger. Thank him.

I will go for any discussion in food faith, but i feel that conventions and spirit are more important than rules. RULES belong to the Cathedral.

red1

Redhuan, I opened a different thread trying to keep THIS THREAD not polluted with Posterita/Trifon case.

This is beyond this little problem. I'll try to keep this thread unpolluted to focus on the important thing - EXTENSION POLICIES OF ADEMPIERE.

Look - in some way our alignment in Posterita case is showing how we think about extensions. But Posterita is not my focus here - it's about ALL EXTENSIONS.

Are we going to allow extensions? Are we going to ENCOURAGE extensions?

Or are we going to close the project for extensions?

That's what the posterita case showed - that we don't have such policies - that we apply some unwritten "rules" inconsistently - etc.

So - I'm calling (peacefully here) for an open council meeting trying to discuss the issue. Yes - probably defining the policies will change Posterita's decision, or Trifon's decision. But that's not the point here - the point is to clarify the future.


I don't understand your fear for a council meeting - this is not a "coup d'etat" - and I trust (well - maybe I must not trust seeing what have happened in all IRC meetings) that community can behave and discuss around some important discussion.
But that must be a matter of moderation - maybe we can name a moderator and respect his decisions.


I don't want your call for discussing "is posterita a fork" - you're changing the focus of some important thing by a minor problem that can be solved differently.
I already answered you in the other thread if you consider changing 11 classes from 4118 (0,267%) is a fork - then we're lost.

Please don't pollute this thread with Posterita or Trifon statements - that's the meaning of the other heated thread - I'm trying to keep a more important and strategic discussion here.


> RULES belong to the Cathedral.

Now what? You sent the link to charter saying that I don't read - that we have rules and policies. And now you're denying about rules?
So, we must keep this project unruled and without policies - and solve everything through flames?


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

Hi Redhuan, let me add answers to two points I didn't notice:

> I see no issue for Council meeting which should only convene for more important issue.

So, you don't consider EXTENSION POLICIES an important issue.

> Its best you proceed to publish your suggestions and bazaar accept or debate them.

I can't publish my suggestions as I still don't have enough clarity on this matter.

I believe in openness (you taught me that) - that includes openness for extensions.

But I'm (still) not sure what's the best for the project. I see others have fears about extensions - and it's ok to hear such points. I have faith in extensions - but I can be wrong.

But maybe there are subtle definitions we haven't seen - maybe it's not a matter of being extension friendly or not. Maybe is about which type of extensions do we like, what type of companies we like here, what type of open-source behavior we expect here.

Look - I'm still not defending any position - I'm biased about extension friendly, but I have my doubts.
And I have even more doubts about being extension predator.
Do you think this is an easy decision that somebody simply propose for votation?


This is not easy, and have many edges, just trademark is a big issue.
Trifon added today a link in his wiki user page:
* Hostile takeover of Open Source Project TWiki
http://blog.wikiring.com/Blog/BlogEntry28

This is adding a new concern about being extension friendly - and a new term that we can coin to show the differences.
What about TRADEMARKED open source?
Reading what happened to twiki I understand now that trademarked open source is something dangerous - and maybe if we want to be extension friendly we need to put some conditions about trademarks on extensions.


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

Hi Carlos

I do not understand what is the issue with the extension, ADempiere is based in GPL License, so all the extensions are government for GPL, So this case all the extensions are automatically released under GPL.

If I understand when you use some code GPL you need give your copyright the original software.

The RULES are wrote in GPL licenses and this community is government for this licenses.

Kind regards
Victor Perez
http://www.e-evolution.com

Hmmm - I'm not sure if I'm making a storm in a glass, or if I'm failing trying to explain me clearly :-(

There are things beyond GPL - GPL doesn't cover the trademark issue raised in Twiki.

Compiere is GPL - but it's not true open source.


The project must behave different if we want to encourage extension developers - that if we want to stop them. What do we want?

Anyways, given the low traffic of this thread maybe people is not interested at all on thinking adempiere future and this philosophical issues :-(


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

Dear Community!

I think that the confusion is in Trademark, the case of the Posterita only they are owner the your Trandemark the same way that e-Evolution is owner the e-Evolution.

So I think that we need remove any Posterita Trademark . but the product as software can are use for any

In the case the Compiere is author the original software, So Compiere can create dual licenses as now they have GPL for Open Source Edition and other License to Enterprise Edition

Here a good article that try explain this:

http://www.law.washington.edu/lct/swp/Law/trademark.html

But with this subject we should think more in get respect for ADempiere Trademark, avoid that any implementer or company use this as name your Company because is the name is of community and Bazaar.

ADempiere trademark is an adjective and must not be used as a verb or noun or in the possessive or plural forms

Any people that use the ADempiere name the way differ to adjective is not being honorable and have not respect to this community.


Kind regards
Victor Perez
http://www.e-evolution.com

Good link Victor - thanks a lot for sharing!

I suspected this "trademark" issue was not so easy to think.

So - maybe the problem is not about extensions, but about "trademarked" extensions.
Well - more food for thought.

Do we want to be open for extensions?
Do we want to be closed for trademarked extensions?


BTW - note aside: Adempiere is a trademark registered on the USA - I remember I read somewhere that in USA if you don't take actions to protect your trademark (i.e. if you don't pursue violators) then you can lose the trademark rights.

Regards,

Carlos Ruiz

I agree that Victor directed to such an issue that seems more important, but it is not relevent (IMHO) to the issue raised by Carlos Ruiz at hand.

What Carlos raised started some reaction on my side. If i may rephrase:

1) QUESTIONS - What is the issue? Is it about rules not been spelt out or followed? What are those rules? Are they technical or political? Does the issue warrant Council or Community or just PMC or Commit Comittee deliberation and judgement?

2) COMMENTS - To me the Extension issue suggested by Carlos is technical. They concern how one should create an extension and submit it for acceptance before it becomes part of ADempiere.
a) Were such rules evident or published well before hand? Answer - Yes, but perhaps they were not stated as part of the Charter or some other document surmountable to LAW. If so, just say so. But how do you say something into law in a bazaar? Simple! How has it been done before? Just write it out and request for comments (RFC). After some conversations, a vote may be taken and it is then published somewhere easy to access and read. Perhaps as part of Charter or By-Laws it does not matter, as long as the community agrees. Point is this process does not warrant any special meeting as if it is an emergency.

b) What then (again) is the issue? There are a few, and they seem to eminate from one act of Trifon in starting a conversation about upgrading Posterita POS back to ADempiere since its not udpated to 352a and he wants to do a review on the codes and submit such review to the community for acceptance.

First of all let me say that such an act by Trifon is very bazaar like (anarchic and chaotic but bazaar like not cathedral-like where you go to the priest and the emperor's wife). He did not and need not seek for permission from anyone but expose this to the community for opinions. And community opinion is somewhat fluidllike - i.e. commits can be reversed, decisions can be reversed. But most important everyone has a say and heard.

Instead an issue was raised on whether he pursue proper ethics with regard to the owner of the source he took from. One party hold that this is very unethical and may endanger the future of the project. I am concerned of such an assumption and of course we must act responsibly. But at the same time we cannot vote against that original act of giving. We can accept it with conditions or admissions that something else is missing, such as a statement from the owner that permission is granted. We do not throw back out anything for been incomplete. That goes against many other conventions or unwritten rules which are more paramount in the bazaar. Such as "release early, update often', 'u start, others finish'. 'mob wisdom', 'bazaar rules' etc.

Thus to me the issue is that - either ethics or permission seeking, not extensions. Even if it is, it is then merely technical and not even policy or political in nature.

Then there were misunderstanding of the status of Posterita project vis a vis the ADempiere project. Is it an extension, or a fork or a distro? That again need no council decision but community wisdom. By that i mean, just discuss in the forums and appreciate comments all round and avoid losing focus on the direction and intent of the ADempiere project.

Posterita issue is not to be seen by merely glancing at their codes. It has to be seen by the actions and words of its owners. Thus for Victor to point to the trademark issue seems expedient and apt. But to me that is jumping the gun and expand the topic too far, when the initial issues aren't solved.

To me there is a standing child at the gate (i am modifying the cow story here). That child is not clean and hungry for knowledge. We have to let him in and clean him and teach him. Ours is a bazaar classroom. Without certificates or recognition by the govt but a barefoot classroom alternative to the expensive and close school system.

We most return focus to that child i.e. Posterita commit to 352a. A vote is running. We must either count the votes and arrive at a decision to accept or reject it or request for supplementary actions while accepting it in principle.

Yours and my opinion have been given. As a single vote, i ask that it be accepted with advice due to your comment about maintainer issue that:
1) Maintainer be sought - Trifon already volunteered and thus this does not arise

2) (About permission issue) That we also accept the works but submit in Posterita sub forum so that someone from Posterita can note and act on it. Now Alex did comment back thus confirming that Posterita has been taken note, but instead of giving permission or not, he chose to continue attacking the project which he has done from day one they decided to become a separate project outside ADempiere. I take aside such an attack that we are not a bazaar. I have repeatedly told him the scenario of a 'Mecca' where a bazaar is only a watering hole, and no one condemns a watering hole. Ppl merely go to the watering hole to quench their thirst and socialising and trade that becomes a City.

Such a Mecca does not stop anyone from coming near. It is others who chose not to go there and condemn those there as been uncommunity like and having lost the original duty of been servant to the community around it.

Clearly their concerns are commercial (as raising branding of a 3rd party entity has become) and thus i cannot side them too long on that. I seek community wisdom and they have voted wisely. I sadly accepted that i cannot help brand a friend the way he wanted it, but there are alternatives which we feel are better and more sustainable by the community. But instead they beg to differ and thus went their way.

We bade them good luck, but i as leader cannot accept an attack on my integrity nor the bazaar's.

Thus there are many different issues here. I came across content about Poision in a Bazaar and the guideline taught there is to define Poison as something that diverts your focus and energy from your main course and cause.

Our main cause and course is written out in the Charter - accepts unabatedly any contributions from anyone without discrimination. If there are problems with the contributions, find ways to get it fit for admission. Any other dicussions or activity wont be welcome by the community. They have things to do and do not give a damn further.

red1

Hmmm, it looks like I can't call for a council meeting without going first to the priest.

Sorry - I'm dropping now the invitation for a council meeting. Environment is too polluted at this moment - and this meeting is promising to become a farce.

Sorry to bother council - council and community must meet just for higher things - BTW - when was the last higher thing discussed on an IRC meeting?

Ah, I see now - extension policies are not considered higher enough - sorry again :-(

I asked to avoid mixing posterita/trifon issue here - but Redhuan prefer this way. Sorry again for opening a higher thread without going first to priest. I must request permission to open a thread about extension policies - next time I'll do - I promise.


It's sad - since day 1 I'm pushing for extensibility. You can take a look to my contributions - most of my work is towards this goal. Extensibility - extensibility - extensibility.

But when I asked for libero being an extension - then many people complained - even knowing that libero was going to unstabilize the core so much (point proven now).

And now that we have a good extension - and maybe we can work towards extensibility with this extension - we took it violently - decision that I don't applaud but Redhuan does - and I don't applaud this decision specially because the WAY was done - disrespecting some big values on open source - communication and collaboration.

That's ok - I must go to the priest before asking for proper process for a friendly extension.
I must align with priest before asking for proper behavior.
I must follow priest guidelines about considering 11 classes a fork from >4k classes.


Saddest thing is that now extensibility is a minor thing for this project.
Extensibility and extension policies don't deserve a council meeting - or calling community - that's a minor matter that can be solved by PMC or CC.

Hmmm - now I'm in doubt about keep working on extensibility - what for? (loosing the faith here)
Maybe we simply stop all extensibility work - and compel everyone to work in kernel. That will make life simpler for voters - and will keep us busy.
And it will be simpler also as this will avoid us to think on policies. Simple policy - extension developers not allowed, different thinking not allowed here, different business model not allowed here - you must go to priest and ask for permission to think different - and permission will be denied.


Cordially,

Carlos Ruiz


PD: I keep thinking Trifon acted bad - and it's a mistake that Adempiere leader is defending such wrong behavior - and trying to construct a case against posterita from nothing (inventing fork stories, of justifying wrong decision because they're unfriendly).
Oooops - words not consulted with priest or emperor's wife, sorry.

Hmm, we jumped to no 4 most active project today. I wonder why :>

Back to this discussion, i want to touch on what and when the council last met. It was (if i remember correctly), for the issue of another council member at that time levelling an accusation of commercial conflict of interests against another council member.

That was serious as the accused does alot of commit work and if that accusation is not cleared .. er.. u know, it just have to be cleared. Either the accuser shows proof or apologise. That episode was messy and i was crticised for taking a hard line defending the accused. But i stand for truth.

In this case, i or trifon is seen as bad character but i take no action other than carry on the conversation to ascertain how we can improve things. I am encouraged that thru the years some bad characters turn better after many many hours of exchange of ideas, besides harsh mud slinging among each other.

All i am asking is to take the middle or lower road, not the My Way or the Highway approach. We should notice that not many like to join into such high strung meetings where we can see that certain ideas are split in the middle. In the accusation case i stated above i have to personally emailed each and every council member that didnt show up to vote. I dont think they like it, cos it seems that they are 'forced' to decide rather left to the community to decide.

So was it with the discussion about Council's role which was criticised so heavily that i asked that the Council be relagated to a museum piece with a founding fathers' status and not be looked upon as active or managerial. In its place we propse and went thru the election of PMC and CC. And that again involve my personal intervention to garner enough votes. As u can see in the vote count it is pathethic and lacking. That is not reflective of a popular community.

However not all hope is lost. The trunk continues to be busy and 'unwritten rules or best practice' kept getting out and the software grew and grew. Many things were achieved peacefully. That is, until now.

What happened? Someone took another project that extends ADempiere and upgrade to our latest 352a or branches/stable and all hell broke loose. The cow got so scared that it finds its own maintaner.

We must be aware by now that we are all not in the same room. None of us is expert of all. None of us reports to each other. Somehow we have to work together and the best way is to have peer to peer respect and mutual discussion. And minimal rules to lower the barrier of entry.

Of course there will be idiots who come to drop us junk and and painful words. I remember how Trifon jumped everytime someone says, "Help me now!!! I need to finish this project so i get paid!!!" and of course Trifon also need money and criticise those words angrily. After that he will skype me and asked if he was too harsh. I said yes and no. No because i understand his feelings. And then we make jokes with lots of !!! and ??? so that he felt better and no one took offense. Then we notice he changed and took my advice that Karma shall look after the priceless contributors.

To me Trifon is not perfect and i still have issues with him (thanks to Carlos who educated me on what an ideal contribution is - complete with migration script and tested with some documentation). I always try to educate rather than to judge. I admit i am a lesser coder than many here. My Cobol days are gone, and my interests lie elsewhere mainly reading and teaching, and that also on broad range of subjects but not hard-coding.

Thus i cannot comment on what i do not know and have to ask around, and mostly Carlos gave me alot of ideas till i am at a lost who to visit first for my overseas holiday - Romania, Bulgaria, Mexico or Colombia.

To end this note, though i noticed that Carlos alluded to my Priest or Emperor's Wife in a reverse context, i will let it pass, cos what is more important is been respectful, and not reactive. For that, as we often do in Malaysian custom i say "Memohon ribuan maaf", i beg a thousand apologies. And Salam Hormat, - Peace with Respect.

red1

Well I was waiting for a date & time ... I found the Invitation somewhat loaded (i.e. it leaned one way) but I was interested because to be honest I not I understand fully what a extension developer is in a FOSS sense. There is a world of difference between you Columbian which is part of our repository but obviously is unique to one country and the POS which is probably of interest to more people (smaller setups) than Mfg.

I like IRC for debate but I don't think it's a place you can make a long reasoned statement or a place for voting because it's not always possible or all to be there.

But I will meet to chat, no problem.

colin

Dear Adempiere community,

I stumbled upon this story and I find it rather entertaining:

" The story itself is perfectly realised and resonant. After the animals overthrow their human master Mr Jones, they look
forward to a more just and egalitarian future. They start by changing the name of Manor Farm to Animal Farm.

The pigs, considered the most intelligent of the lot, had taught themselves to read and write, and so they set down The
Seven Commandments for the animal community. These Commandments include "Whoever goes upon two legs is an
enemy", "No animal shall kill another animal" and "All animals are equal."

The animals devote themselves to work, thinking that all the spoils of the land will be distributed equally as planned. But
slowly the pigs start to take much more than their fair share. The new post-merdeka system doesn't look like it's going
to be very equitable after all.

When some animals choose to complain, the pigs would use Jones as a bogey to scare them into submission: "Day and
night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. Do you know
what would happen if we pigs failed in our duty? Yes, Jones would come back!"

We can already see distinct behavioral traits emerging among the animals. The pigs are bossy and unscrupulous, the
horses are hard-working and selfless, the dogs are vicious, and the dim-witted sheep can do nothing but bodek all day
long as they repeat the mantra "Four legs good, two legs bad."

It doesn't take long for a leadership contest to emerge between two pigs: Napoleon, who has a way of getting whatever
he wants, and Snowball, an excellent orator who shines with idealism (modelled after Trotsky, naturally). The crunch
comes when the two pigs have different plans for the economic development of the farm.

All the animals gather so that they can listen to and vote on the pig they want to lead. Napoleon's speech pales in
comparison to Snowball's passionate exhortations. It looks like Snowball will win. But wait:


"Napoleon stood up and, casting a peculiar sidelong look at Snowball, uttered a high-pitched whimper of a kind no one had ever heard utter before. At this there was a terribly baying sound outside, and nine enormous dogs wearing brass-studded collars came bounding into the farm. They dashed straight for Snowball, who only sprang from his place just in time to escape their snapping jaws. In a moment he was out of the door and they were after him."


This extract shows that Napoleon is ruthless enough to use dirty tactics in getting rid of his opponent. But his campaign
doesn't end there. He bans all public debates and states that, from now, all decisions will be made by committees
headed by himself.

He goes out of his way to discredit Snowball as a "dangerous character and a bad influence" who harboured
neo-imperialistic tendencies by acting in league with their erstwhile human masters. It becomes a running joke:
Whenever some catastrophe befalls the farm, from the collapse of a windmill to a below-par crop, the animals would be
trained to blame Snowball.

A climate of hysteria reigns as animals are compelled to 'confess' that they cooperated with Snowball. These animals are
killed. But wait a minute! Isn't there a Commandment that forbids this?

Ah, Napoleon is so efficient that he alters the laws by having extra words painted on them. The Commandment now
reads: "No animal shall kill another animal without reason." And the change to the last Commandment becomes the
novel's single most famous line: "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

Napoleon meanwhile makes all sorts of blunders but the animals continue to praise him because they have been trained
to do so. Cows at the river would exclaim, "Thanks to the leadership of Comrade Napoleon, how excellent this water
tastes!"

Animal Farm is not just a simple denunciation of communism. The novel still paints capitalism (personified by the
neighbouring human farmers) as evil, but Orwell did not want British socialism to fall into the same trap of Stalinist
tyranny and sycophancy. His ability to see both sides of the story, while still holding on to his principles, gives his work
an extra charge.

A year after the book's publication he wrote a letter which explained: "I meant the moral to be that revolutions only
affect a radical improvement when the masses are alert and know how to chuck out their leaders as soon as the latter
have done their job ... What I was trying to say was, "You can't have a revolution unless you make it for yourself; there
is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship."

The beasts of Animal Farm made the mistake of keeping silent when the smallest liberties were taken away from them.
By the time Napoleon shows his true self by walking on two legs, everyone is too powerless to say anything, since they
had allowed too many decisions to be made on their behalf. Those poor things! " -- Summary of Animal Farm


We care a lot of what happens to Adempiere. We are awaiting for the next distribution to readjust our current code.

I think the issue has escalated to even greater proportion, I am appalled that a single community member has the power to prevent a debate taking place.

You can not make the same mistake as in Animal Farm, do not let the smallest liberties to be taken away from you.

Carlos although we do not consider ourselves part of Adempiere community anymore. I will attend to your request. Whether it is called 'Council meeting' or just 'Carlos meeting'. I don't care. Whether I will be the only one to attend. I will show up.
Community put your weight behind Carlos, and do not stay silent. This guy deserves to be heard.

Please fix a date.

Regards

Frederick Tsang

> -- Summary of Animal Farm

Thanks for the summary; although you could have posted the link to it instead!

> We care a lot of what happens to Adempiere.

I love this phrase! I wonder how you might care of what happens to ADempiere while you don't monitor its forums or don't ask in forums what to do with ADempiere code. Specially I love the "a lot" part!

> We are awaiting for the next distribution to readjust our current code.

You're on the wrong track! We don't have distributions. However in case we had, there'd have been no changes to the lines that you modified -with all the care for ADempiere you have in your heart- so this or next release doesn't change anything.

> I think the issue has escalated to even greater proportion, I am appalled
> that a single community member has the power to prevent a debate taking
> place.

Oh! Thanks god Marcus Antonius is back and he will save us from the conspirators! I guess you've been reading too much novels -specially heroic/epic genre- recently.

> You can not make the same mistake as in Animal Farm, do not let the
> smallest liberties to be taken away from you.

Viva Zapata!

> Carlos although we do not consider ourselves part of Adempiere community
> anymore.

Lovely! I can't imagine how much one might love ADempiere; although he doesn't consider himself part of its community "cares a lot" about it.

> I will attend to your request. Whether it is called 'Council
> meeting' or just 'Carlos meeting'. I don't care. Whether I will be the only
> one to attend. I will show up.

(Crowd clapping and cheering)

> Community put your weight behind Carlos, and do not stay silent.

Again, such a non-breakable relationship with community! Although not considering yourself part of it, encouraging the members to follow you. I admire your self-confidence "Sir Knight"!

> This guy deserves to be heard.

This guy? Frederick Tsang or Carlos? Don't put your weight behind Carlos Frederick Tsang. I believe you are the one who dies to be heard. So come out of the shadows "Sir Brave Knight"!

Bahman

Hmmmm - interesting discoveries we're making here (thanks Trifon because opening this pandora box):

I just realized some facts:

Redhuan wrote:
> So was it with the discussion about Council's role which was criticised so heavily that i
> asked that the Council be relagated to a museum piece with a founding fathers' status
> and not be looked upon as active or managerial. In its place we propse and went thru the
> election of PMC and CC. And that again involve my personal intervention to garner
> enough votes. As u can see in the vote count it is pathethic and lacking. That is not
> reflective of a popular community.

According to Red1 post we have:

- a decorative COUNCIL (piece of museum)

- a PMC elected with 5 pathethic votes - not representative of community

- a CC elected with another 5 pathethic votes - neither representative

So, what do we have here? What IS Adempiere?
Ah, I see, Adempiere is a benevolent dictator. That don't like rules and mostly stop any intent of ruling project, and mostly lock any intent of policies. The commonest example is "england doesn't have a constitution" - we don't need rules - we need flames to improve sf stats.
Maybe is just obvious - is easier to be dictator when we have no rules at all - I now see clearer the "Animal Farm" comparison.
Using community as a shield - we always keep postponing to organize the project.

As I remember democracy is different (well - this doesn't seem like a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship).
In my country people (community) vote and elect some members (congress) to THINK on policies, rules, etc. And delegate to judges the application of such rules. And people (community) elect a temporary president to administer.
I suppose that's normal - as it's almost impossible to call "community" to think on many higher things - community in some way (right or wrong) delegate that in some temporary representative heads. Community is called to vote after some heads propose something.

Dictatorship is something different - dictators love to not have rules - this way they can invent and reinvent rules properly - and use community as shield.


BTW - I noticed something even more scandalous :-(

Adempiere Leader was elected with 3 votes (Ramiro proposed it as temporary leader, Colin and I seconded the idea).
"As u can see in the vote count it is pathethic and lacking. That is not reflective of a popular community."

Wow - this is a very sad day - we realized that we don't council, and PMC, CC, Leader where elected with unrepresentative votes.
Or maybe this is not a sad day - is a good day to correct these mistakes - and make this a representative democracy - having representative "congress" (PMC & CC) - president (leader), etc.

I'm sure I would vote again for Redhuan as community leader - but this time we can have enough votes to make the election representative.
And I will vote for leader, JUST IF we also vote for a REPRESENTATIVE BODY to think on policies/rules, not a decorative body - but a real one - and the rules and policies thought by this body (possibly consulted with community) are discussed, encouraged and respected (not stopped as it happened to the bylaws intent - and many other intents)


I just changed council definition in wiki - and dropped myself from PMC and CC symbolic bodies (without real work in a project without rules or policies).


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz


PD:
> To end this note, though i noticed that Carlos alluded to my Priest or Emperor's Wife
> in a reverse context, i will let it pass
I understand clearly the context - I just think your context is not coherent with what's happening here - and used the same terms to show the real context.

Confessions of a pathetic leader with only 3 votes <--- McCain would laugh and die.

Fred,
Thanks for the Animal Farm story. I admit, you do paint a nice depiction of me. You should have taken over Prince Albert Hall. So what happened to the new more equal than the rest dictator in the next life? Is there hope for Karma's smile again?

Carlos,
You win, i lose. Should i quit also? <--- honest!

red1

p/s can someone suggest a good time to talk in the chat room? <-- quick before i declare martial law!!!

Can i suggest (oops.. better not) ok can someone else suggest a good facilitator that is willing to withstand the worst debate without pay. :D

red1

Hello Carlos, hello Fred,

first I would like to say something to that st*** nons***** that red1 acts as a dictator. Where is he preventing any discussion? How is he suppressing free voices to be heard? Was he deleting post? Was he killing public IRC sessions? Or was his army in front of your door? He was there from minute one to discuss with everyone. And he was the one who wants to keep it as public as possible. The only thing he doesn't want was a council meeting. But hey, if the rest of the council wants it and if a time it set, I am sure red1 will be there (even it is in the middle of his night). But will the rest of the council be there? Oh yes, perhaps they are arrested by his army or secret service...

Let's assume we would have this meeting? What should they decide? To drop Trifon's work? They can't we have a clear community voting for it. Ah right, it's about extensibility. OK, here Carlos, you would have my vote (oh sorry, I am not a council member). But then start to work on it. No one would prevent us for doing so. What would a council decision change? Nothing, with this we don't get any interfaces or documentation. So why is it so urgent? Or is it to set some rules, that it's possible to drop Trifon's work because of them? So is it all about Trifon's contribution? But would it be democratic if the council outvotes a community decision?

Fred, I read two messages from you guys. Lot about leadership and communities - including a abstract of animal farm. But nothing about the facts. Have you look to Trifon's work? What do say to it, is it good? Could it be helpful for you? Have you ever considered that it's good for you and your brand?

I know this was the discussion yesterday. No we are further. Now everything is questioned. The council, PMC and red1 as the leader. The bad thing is: It's correct. Every structure here has a questionable legitimation. But it's all we have and I don't know if it is wise to destroy it, before we created something new. It might be. Sometimes old things must die before something new could grow. And yes, I always voted for a global society, for some rules and a structure. But one note to our concrete case. There we actually have one rule: the community votes. And this rule would be holy for me.

So Carlos, everything is down now, well done. What's the next step? Do you have any suggestions? What I find very sad is, that I always heard your voice clear and loud and I always read you post very accurate. And you know what: I mostly agree with you (even if I don't say it). But right now, I don't know what I should think. OK, we disagree regarding Trifon's contribution (that why I said mostly :-) ). But as I said I agree with you regarding the extensibility. But what I really don't understand, why it is necessary to create such a scandal out of it. We have know a big storm in our ADempiere glass. Was it really worth it? What are you afraid of? Is it just the signal we send out to potential extension writers? It's hard for me to believe that this is the only reason. BTW: For me as a potential extension writer the signal is good.

I really hope we find a way back together
Kai

Redhuan,

> Carlos,
> You win, i lose. Should i quit also? <--- honest!

This is not winner/loser game.
In the end what we must try is that Adempiere must be the winner.
You pointed to a big flaw in adempiere council.
You dismantled PMC and CC because of unrepresentative votes (and you're right).
I JUST pointed to show the same flaw is in the votation for leader.

Moral: be careful when you call for a vote counting.
___________________________________

Kai,

> The only thing he doesn't want was a council meeting.

Well - my reading was different - at first I thought he doesn't want a council meeting - but later realized that we don't have council, neither PMC, neither CC.

> Let's assume we would have this meeting?
> What should they decide? To drop Trifon's work?

Kai, I tried to be clear - please don't change my words here.

I said specifically that Posterita/Trifon issue is minor and that I would like to discuss here extension policies without mentioning Posterita neither Trifon - and proposed a moderator to achieve such hard thing.

> Ah right, it's about extensibility. OK, here Carlos,
> you would have my vote (oh sorry, I am not a council member).

This is another tricky statement ignoring all my words - please read carefully what I wrote in the initial post.

I wrote council meeting (when I believe there was a council with some role) meaning that I would like to see council quorum there - not about votation.

And I also wrote OPEN - because anyone can go there with voice.
And as you have noticed before - most of decisions are taken here with community votation. Preferrably AFTER some previous discussion.

> There we actually have one rule: the community votes.
> And this rule would be holy for me.

For me too - community must vote - but what must vote community?
Let's try it:
Please community: vote about this: Must we be:
a) extension friendly
b) extension predator
Please vote!!!!

Community: +1 here ... -1 here ... +1 here ... ++++1 here ... etc
Suddenly one brilliant community member states: Well - wait a minute? what's being extension friendly? what implication does it have? are we going to be extension friendly for proprietary or just for open source? for trademarked?
And what does it mean being predators? that we allow established extensions be taken violently without any communication or collaboration?
Please be clear before asking vote.

Voting caller: sorry - can community discuss in an IRC meeting?

Community appears on IRC meeting (four members appeared - two of them very biased because they were part of one of the violent took) ..... etc ... etc


No Kai, I think this project has very big flaws - we can't rule anything - we can't establish policies on anything.
We discussed longly some bylaws to end in nothing - the only successful intent to organize I have seen is German Foundation - and I suspect you could organize it so well because you didn't consult community or decorative council - you consulted and organized a local community (easier) and then acted and communicated the decision to global community - I congratulate you.

> So is it all about Trifon's contribution?
> But would it be democratic if the council outvotes a community decision?

Please try to keep Posterita/Trifon issue out of this. This WAS about extensions - and the intention was not council imposing something - the intention was to clarify the policies about extensions - maybe those policies would have shown that Trifon act was good (maybe harsh, but ok) and that would simply be solved with some apologies to Posterita team. Or maybe those policies would have shown that we must not take extensions this way - and then maybe (just maybe) a different way of collaboration would be asked.

But at this moment we don't know what could be happened - discussion was so polluted. The meeting was practically vetoed.

And then Redhuan decided to dismantle council, PMC and CC.

> So Carlos, everything is down now, well done.

Please don't blame me, I didn't count the votes, I have always think that Adempiere needs some kind of organization, some kind of rules, some kind of policies.
If this keeps this way (totally unruled, without any committee to think in future of the project, without council, without PMC, without CC) - I think I'm sit at the wrong project.

> Do you have any suggestions?

I repeat - I didn't dismantle council, PMC and CC. Redhuan did - maybe his suggestions are better than mine. He considered council decorative and PMC/CC unrepresentative. So maybe he has a clear mind about how to organize the project.

> And you know what: I mostly agree with you (even if I don't say it).
> But right now, I don't know what I should think.

OK - let me clarifiy - I'm not looking for Redhuan's chair. I said before. I would vote AGAIN for Redhuan as leader. I consider he did a big job giving initial vision to the project, and I don't see any other with his skills. BUT I won't vote for him as benevolent dictator, but more as administrator (like a president). And maybe it's time to return to the initial proposal from Ramiro about the leader being temporal - and votation called from time to time - reelection allowed.

And I said it also: I just would vote for president if I can vote for a temporary congress at the same time. I mean, I won't vote for a leader, if at the same time we can't organize some sort of body to organize the project - to think and propose rules and policies.
And I would vote to allow this body to carry meetings like a congress - community allowed with some rules about voice. And community votation asked for some higher or decisive things.

What I realized is this project can't take any decisive decision - we don't have bodies, and the leader hates taking decisions, or ruling, or establishing policies.

I'm looking for a better project.
I'm looking for organizing the project in a better way - Redhuan pointed that we're not representative - that's right - then let's make it representative. Let's organize ourselves in a better and representative way.


> But what I really don't understand, why it is necessary to create such
> a scandal out of it. We have know a big storm in our ADempiere glass.

Kai, I started looking for community wisdom, calling for a council meeting. The meeting was vetoed saying that such decision can be taken by PMC - and then the PMC was dismantled because unrepresentative, and council figured as decorative.

So, the little rain in our Adempiere glass became a storm just because we don't have anything here. We don't have council, neither PMC, neither CC - so, who can I call for discussing extension policies? Ah, I know the answer, I must call community. Honestly I think these things don't evolve this way.


Regards,

Carlos Ruiz


NOTE ASIDE: My caps lock are ok - uppercasing words is the way to BOLD when we can't format.

Everyone,

I've been monitoring this thread for a while and I humbly request to speak out my opinion - as just a fans of ADempiere.
My first encounter with ADempiere was around a year ago. I was surfing the net to find an open source ERP. I ended up at a ADempiere website (should be http://www.adempiere.org but I'm not sure now). The layout was a mess and I can't find enough information. All were so technical (I was working as functional staff and I knew nothing bout Java programming). I passed and find next.
I surfed and found Openbravo, tiny ERP (tiny? so not convincing, I passed without have another look :p ). ADempiere was the only true open source ERP with option to use open source database. But still it was too technical for me, not functional documentation. I passed, maybe only large corporates can make good ERP.
At March 2008, somehow I had a glimpse look at ADempiere. Jees, release 3.4 already. So fast. I started to pay more attention and in short I decided to jump in.
I started from http://www.adempiere.org, peeked into the wiki. Then found tutorials written by a guy who called himself red1. He's the leader and he's Malaysian. Darn, why not Indonesian? (don't start a flame from it, just a joke! :p ). I learnt more and hit the wall more. Then I knew about the sourceforge forums. I read the threads for information.
It was then I was very much stucked with my lessons that I started my threads asking for help. I was not hoping for much since these guys were experts and my question was a very simple question. I got my reply a few hours later. Hey, these guys are nice! I'll ask more then :D
I was owing a lot to the guy named Trifon. He's very straight, not very friendly though. But he's answering a lot of help request.
Along the way, I got familiar with more names:
- Karsten Thiemann, who wrote the article about GenerateModel
- Mario Calderon, provided the very very helpful Developer Guide
- Carlos Ruiz, who's writing great wiki pages about constructing development and customization pages. Later i found out that he's globalqss who's name is all over the code.
- Victor Perez and the manufacturing extension, Libero
- Low Hengsin, whose name is all over the codes too.
- My fellow Indonesian! hahaha.. Armen Rizal, Frans Thamura, and now Bayu Cahyo

and lots of other names: Bahman, Colin, Angelo, Ivan Ceras, phib, and everyone

These people build ADempiere. I don't see the lousy website that I see last year. I see better guides on the wikis. Just yesterday I looked again at Carlos' Technical Training guide and it was much better than the last time I drilled into it.

I can read from this thread that everyone were actually proposing something for the good of the project. Please have another look without prejudice. Ok, some guys lost control a bit and said some not very nice words. Please just don't focus on it. Focus on the idea that he's presenting. Have a beer or soda. Cool down. Harsh words won't bring us anywhere good.

My regards to all the great contributors of the ADempiere project,

Edwin Ang

Hi Carlos,

I have to admit that it's possible that I misunderstand you. But right now it's not so easy. :-) I know you said, that this meeting it's not about the Trifon/POSterita case. But it came out of it and this case was always somehow shown up in this discussion (also from your side). Example?

>that we allow established extensions be taken violently without any communication or collaboration?

See, somehow the Trifon case again (now in general). (And you know that I think you see this too strict? IMHO it's not black/white). But OK, I believe you. So does it mean you don't like the decision that Trifons work is taken but you accept it?

So the council meeting you wanted should be about extensibility. But could you please explain why it was or is so urgent for you? What could the council decided regarding this? Please, I really want to understand it.

-Kai