From: Todd G. <to...@sl...> - 2004-03-29 21:51:04
|
This was discussed in regards to a logo for Python overall, to the point that heads exploded, but I'll mention it anyway: You generally need to decide whom your logo is meant to appeal to, and what values it should relay. [Here I would cut and paste 987906 emails from the marketing list] In short - if the goal is to be taken more seriously, and "professional", I'd vote against cartoon-ish approaches. Yes, even to the point of "boring", though hopefully not. If the point is just a catchy logo other Python programmers will appreciate, then it's less vital - though if their usage is dependent on departmental approval, it still matters. Just thought I'd shortcut things here so we don't repeat that long long thread. -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*to...@sl... |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2004-03-29 22:06:58
|
Todd Grimason wrote: > This was discussed in regards to a logo for Python overall, to the > point that heads exploded, but I'll mention it anyway: > > You generally need to decide whom your logo is meant to appeal to, and > what values it should relay. > > [Here I would cut and paste 987906 emails from the marketing list] > > In short - if the goal is to be taken more seriously, and > "professional", I'd vote against cartoon-ish approaches. Yes, even to > the point of "boring", though hopefully not. Realistically, Webware isn't going to appeal to the people that a corporate logo would appeal to. Webware has the potential to bring in developers who are enthusiastic about Python. Those developers may, in turn, convince boring corporate types. But the boring corporate types just don't hang out in the same circles as Webware. They probably don't even appreciate where Webware sits in the stack of tools a developer would use. > If the point is just a catchy logo other Python programmers will > appreciate, then it's less vital - though if their usage is dependent > on departmental approval, it still matters. We don't have any corporate backing or much of that appeal, but we can still appeal to management types that have an appreciation for open source software and the environment that entails. That's my evaluation of Webware's appeal strictly on a technical level. In that light, Webware needs not to show that it is corporate, but that it is alive and actively supported. And even if there's not a huge amount of active development of the Webware core, it *is* consistently supported by the community on this list. And an enlightened manager *will* still be concerned about the viability of the project. From that perspective an irreverent logo doesn't really hurt -- what you really need to show is that there's some care and effort. A quite valid criticism is that currently the Webware site doesn't show that. So I think it's more important to do *something* rather than the "right" thing. Personally, this logo is the one I like best so far. But I wouldn't veto another logo. > Just thought I'd shortcut things here so we don't repeat that long > long thread. |
From: Chuck E. <Chu...@ya...> - 2004-03-29 22:14:35
|
I agree with everything Ian said here. -Chuck -- http://ChuckEsterbrook.com/ On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:06:29 -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > Todd Grimason wrote: >> This was discussed in regards to a logo for Python overall, to >> the point that heads exploded, but I'll mention it anyway: >> >> You generally need to decide whom your logo is meant to appeal >> to, and what values it should relay. >> >> [Here I would cut and paste 987906 emails from the marketing list] >> >> >> In short - if the goal is to be taken more seriously, and >> "professional", I'd vote against cartoon-ish approaches. Yes, >> even to the point of "boring", though hopefully not. >> > > Realistically, Webware isn't going to appeal to the people that a > corporate logo would appeal to. Webware has the potential to bring > in developers who are enthusiastic about Python. Those developers > may, in turn, convince boring corporate types. But the boring > corporate types just don't hang out in the same circles as Webware. > They probably don't even appreciate where Webware sits in the > stack of tools a developer would use. > >> If the point is just a catchy logo other Python programmers will >> appreciate, then it's less vital - though if their usage is >> dependent on departmental approval, it still matters. >> > > We don't have any corporate backing or much of that appeal, but we > can still appeal to management types that have an appreciation for > open source software and the environment that entails. That's my > evaluation of Webware's appeal strictly on a technical level. > > In that light, Webware needs not to show that it is corporate, but > that it is alive and actively supported. And even if there's not a > huge amount of active development of the Webware core, it *is* > consistently supported by the community on this list. And an > enlightened manager *will* still be concerned about the viability > of the project. > > From that perspective an irreverent logo doesn't really hurt -- > what you really need to show is that there's some care and effort. > A quite valid criticism is that currently the Webware site doesn't > show that. So I think it's more important to do *something* rather > than the "right" thing. Personally, this logo is the one I like > best so far. But I wouldn't veto another logo. > > >> Just thought I'd shortcut things here so we don't repeat that >> long long thread. |
From: Jacob H. <ja...@ja...> - 2004-03-29 23:38:48
|
Hello everyone, I've received quite a bit of feedback today and I'm happy to say that it's generally been quite positive. A few of you have felt that the feel should lean a little bit more towards corporate and I agree. So, I made a couple of adjustments that add some of that without giving up the overall jovial nature. And I made some little 'powered by' images. www.alphamotion.com/jacob_hanson-logo_03.gif www.alphamotion.com/jacob_hanson-powered_01.gif www.alphamotion.com/jacob_hanson-powered_02.gif I wasn't aware that there have been other attempts made at this before, (thanks for the link Jose), but it looks like we've been deciding for almost a year. :] Barring any objections to the current version, it looks like we're pretty close to a *gasp* general consensus. I'm not real picky--I'm mostly interested in seeing a decision made soon. Jacob ... _/ _/ _/ Jacob Hanson _/ _/_/_/ mailto:ja...@ja... _/_/_/ _/ _/ http://www.jacobhanson.com Monday, March 29, 2004, 3:14:38 PM, you wrote: > I agree with everything Ian said here. > -Chuck > -- > http://ChuckEsterbrook.com/ *snip* |
From: Douglas B. <douglas.burchard@DouglasBurchard.com> - 2004-03-30 00:56:47
|
On Mar 29, 2004, at 3:40 PM, Jacob Hanson wrote: > I wasn't aware that there have been other attempts made at this before, > (thanks for the link Jose), but it looks like we've been deciding for > almost a year. :] Barring any objections to the current version, it > looks like we're pretty close to a *gasp* general consensus. I'm not > real picky--I'm mostly interested in seeing a decision made soon. Very new to Webware (or Python for that matter) so a little hesitant to offer suggestions as yet... But while I like the design, I wonder if it really says anything about what Webware for Python does. I mean the suggestion could apply to any Python framework for any purpose. Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... As for the concern that a 'mascot' is too cartoonish, there are plenty of examples to refute this. For example: Linux's Tux, BSD's Deamon, Darwin's Hexly, etc. Personally, as a consultant I'd have no problems selling Webware to a client because of a cartoonish logo, as long as it's professionally presented (which Jason's design is I believe). -- Douglas Burchard, President DouglasBurchard.com, Web Applications 15024 NE 66th Street Redmond, WA 98052, USA direct: (206) 227-8161 solutions@DouglasBurchard.com http://www.DouglasBurchard.com |
From: Chris B. <Chr...@no...> - 2004-03-30 17:49:58
|
Douglas Burchard wrote: > Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: I like the wrench a lot, I think "tools" when I think of Webware. > <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> the feather ties it to Apache too much. while most of us probably use it with Apache, it is NOT an Apache extension. > I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but > perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... Maybe a way to use the wrench, and something that says: "web". A globe, perhaps a wrench adjusting the globe? I'm NOT a designer, so I'm not going ot even try to make an image out of that idea! More than a good website, more than a logo, what Webware needs to get some real exposure and use is a Book. I had a colleague who had worked with me on a Python based project, then set out to build a web app. After looking through the books on developing for the web with Python, and buying "Web Programming in Python", he was thoroughly confused about what combinations of tools to use (CGI, mod_python, mod_snake, jonpy, quiote, webware, etc.). If there was a book: "Building web applications with Python and Webware", that told you what tools to use, and how to use them, he probably would have used it. Instead, he was faced with Zope, which he didn't really like. So, he bought a book that told him how to use PHP and MySQL to do what he wanted. He didn't like PHP better, what he liked was that there weren't so many options he had to choose from for every part of the project. A self contained book about Webware would really make the difference! That being said, I have neither the talent nor the time to write such a book, but I think someone who did might even be able to earn a decent profit from it. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chr...@no... |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-03-30 18:19:32
|
Hmm. A book. I'm wondering if I should/could put my hands up on that one. Being that I'm a journo by trade, I'm thinking I might be able to pull it off. Now that said, I'd need some serious ears when I had a question to bounce off. That said, I'm a reasonable enough programmer, or I'd like to think I am :) Perhaps the trick is I write a sample chapter and throw it at a few publishers (orielly etc) and see if theres any interest. If theres not, I doubt I could justify the expenditure of time, but if there is interest It'd be a damn great way to spend this currently-between-jobs period I'm in. Whats the vibes here? -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Chris Barker wrote: > > > Douglas Burchard wrote: > > > Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: > > I like the wrench a lot, I think "tools" when I think of Webware. > > > <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> > > the feather ties it to Apache too much. while most of us probably use it > with Apache, it is NOT an Apache extension. > > > I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but > > perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... > > Maybe a way to use the wrench, and something that says: "web". A globe, > perhaps a wrench adjusting the globe? I'm NOT a designer, so I'm not > going ot even try to make an image out of that idea! > > More than a good website, more than a logo, what Webware needs to get > some real exposure and use is a Book. I had a colleague who had worked > with me on a Python based project, then set out to build a web app. > After looking through the books on developing for the web with Python, > and buying "Web Programming in Python", he was thoroughly confused about > what combinations of tools to use (CGI, mod_python, mod_snake, jonpy, > quiote, webware, etc.). If there was a book: "Building web applications > with Python and Webware", that told you what tools to use, and how to > use them, he probably would have used it. Instead, he was faced with > Zope, which he didn't really like. So, he bought a book that told him > how to use PHP and MySQL to do what he wanted. He didn't like PHP > better, what he liked was that there weren't so many options he had to > choose from for every part of the project. A self contained book about > Webware would really make the difference! > > That being said, I have neither the talent nor the time to write such a > book, but I think someone who did might even be able to earn a decent > profit from it. > > -Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > > NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice > 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > Chr...@no... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > |
From: Todd G. <to...@sl...> - 2004-03-30 18:36:53
|
* Shayne ONeill <sh...@pe...> [2004-03-30 13:25]: > > > Perhaps the trick is I write a sample chapter and throw it at a few > publishers (orielly etc) and see if theres any interest. If theres not, I > doubt I could justify the expenditure of time, but if there is interest > It'd be a damn great way to spend this currently-between-jobs period I'm > in. > > Whats the vibes here? My 2 cents would be that any publisher would be a bit hesitant until the project's [Webware's] site and docs was more fleshed out and organized. A useful comparison might be Mason, a perl toolkit (generally) built on top of mod_perl. http://masonhq.com (specifically: http://masonhq.com/docs/manual/ ) They had pretty decent documentation and guides before their book was published by O'Reilly. (http://masonbook.com) But I'm certainly not a publisher and wouldn't stop ya! -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*to...@sl... |
From: Aaron H. <aaron@MetroNY.com> - 2004-04-22 18:03:13
|
I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few less then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. Something like Enterprise Integration in Python would be interesing - focus on webware but do python things like NT Service integration, Manage MS Exchange, XMLRPC, long running threads etc... There are lots of things Python can do easily that are hard in Java, and there are more things that Webware can do well that PHP can't. (I like to position it as the elegance of J2EE w/ the development speed of PHP) I think that a webware book should focus on tasks done well in Python and webware. (Otherwise it seen as a less capable Java server or overly complex PHP clone). Thanks, -Aaron Held Shayne ONeill wrote: >Hmm. A book. > >I'm wondering if I should/could put my hands up on that one. > >Being that I'm a journo by trade, I'm thinking I might be able to pull it >off. Now that said, I'd need some serious ears when I had a question to >bounce off. That said, I'm a reasonable enough programmer, or I'd like to >think I am :) > >Perhaps the trick is I write a sample chapter and throw it at a few >publishers (orielly etc) and see if theres any interest. If theres not, I >doubt I could justify the expenditure of time, but if there is interest >It'd be a damn great way to spend this currently-between-jobs period I'm >in. > >Whats the vibes here? > >-- >Shayne O'Neill >http://perth.indymedia.org >I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > ----George W. Bush > >On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Chris Barker wrote: > > > >>Douglas Burchard wrote: >> >> >> >>>Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: >>> >>> >>I like the wrench a lot, I think "tools" when I think of Webware. >> >> >> >>> <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> >>> >>> >>the feather ties it to Apache too much. while most of us probably use it >>with Apache, it is NOT an Apache extension. >> >> >> >>>I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but >>>perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... >>> >>> >>Maybe a way to use the wrench, and something that says: "web". A globe, >>perhaps a wrench adjusting the globe? I'm NOT a designer, so I'm not >>going ot even try to make an image out of that idea! >> >>More than a good website, more than a logo, what Webware needs to get >>some real exposure and use is a Book. I had a colleague who had worked >>with me on a Python based project, then set out to build a web app. >>After looking through the books on developing for the web with Python, >>and buying "Web Programming in Python", he was thoroughly confused about >>what combinations of tools to use (CGI, mod_python, mod_snake, jonpy, >>quiote, webware, etc.). If there was a book: "Building web applications >>with Python and Webware", that told you what tools to use, and how to >>use them, he probably would have used it. Instead, he was faced with >>Zope, which he didn't really like. So, he bought a book that told him >>how to use PHP and MySQL to do what he wanted. He didn't like PHP >>better, what he liked was that there weren't so many options he had to >>choose from for every part of the project. A self contained book about >>Webware would really make the difference! >> >>That being said, I have neither the talent nor the time to write such a >>book, but I think someone who did might even be able to earn a decent >>profit from it. >> >>-Chris >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Christopher Barker, Ph.D. >>Oceanographer >> >>NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice >>7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax >>Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception >> >>Chr...@no... >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------- >>This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials >>Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of >>GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system >>administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click >>_______________________________________________ >>Webware-discuss mailing list >>Web...@li... >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss >> >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click >_______________________________________________ >Webware-discuss mailing list >Web...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > > -- -Aaron http://www.MetroNY.com/ If the car industry behaved like the computer industry over the last 30 years, a Rolls-Royce would cost $5, get 300 miles per gallon, and blow up once a year killing all passengers inside. |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-23 02:41:49
|
Again. Its one of those things I could probably do well. I guess the problem for me personally is I'd have to find a publisher for me to justify the rather large time investment book writing takes. I'd probably also have to get someone else to lookysee in on the NT stuff as I'm usually a linux guy these days. That said, I do have a reasonable degree in experience on Com type programming, alas not thru python. -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Aaron Held wrote: > I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some > tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. > > I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few less > then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. > > Something like Enterprise Integration in Python would be interesing - > focus on webware but do python things like NT Service integration, > Manage MS Exchange, XMLRPC, long running threads etc... > > There are lots of things Python can do easily that are hard in Java, and > there are more things that Webware can do well that PHP can't. (I like > to position it as the elegance of J2EE w/ the development speed of PHP) > > I think that a webware book should focus on tasks done well in Python > and webware. (Otherwise it seen as a less capable Java server or > overly complex PHP clone). > > Thanks, > -Aaron Held > > Shayne ONeill wrote: > > >Hmm. A book. > > > >I'm wondering if I should/could put my hands up on that one. > > > >Being that I'm a journo by trade, I'm thinking I might be able to pull it > >off. Now that said, I'd need some serious ears when I had a question to > >bounce off. That said, I'm a reasonable enough programmer, or I'd like to > >think I am :) > > > >Perhaps the trick is I write a sample chapter and throw it at a few > >publishers (orielly etc) and see if theres any interest. If theres not, I > >doubt I could justify the expenditure of time, but if there is interest > >It'd be a damn great way to spend this currently-between-jobs period I'm > >in. > > > >Whats the vibes here? > > > >-- > >Shayne O'Neill > >http://perth.indymedia.org > >I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > > ----George W. Bush > > > >On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Chris Barker wrote: > > > > > > > >>Douglas Burchard wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: > >>> > >>> > >>I like the wrench a lot, I think "tools" when I think of Webware. > >> > >> > >> > >>> <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> > >>> > >>> > >>the feather ties it to Apache too much. while most of us probably use it > >>with Apache, it is NOT an Apache extension. > >> > >> > >> > >>>I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but > >>>perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... > >>> > >>> > >>Maybe a way to use the wrench, and something that says: "web". A globe, > >>perhaps a wrench adjusting the globe? I'm NOT a designer, so I'm not > >>going ot even try to make an image out of that idea! > >> > >>More than a good website, more than a logo, what Webware needs to get > >>some real exposure and use is a Book. I had a colleague who had worked > >>with me on a Python based project, then set out to build a web app. > >>After looking through the books on developing for the web with Python, > >>and buying "Web Programming in Python", he was thoroughly confused about > >>what combinations of tools to use (CGI, mod_python, mod_snake, jonpy, > >>quiote, webware, etc.). If there was a book: "Building web applications > >>with Python and Webware", that told you what tools to use, and how to > >>use them, he probably would have used it. Instead, he was faced with > >>Zope, which he didn't really like. So, he bought a book that told him > >>how to use PHP and MySQL to do what he wanted. He didn't like PHP > >>better, what he liked was that there weren't so many options he had to > >>choose from for every part of the project. A self contained book about > >>Webware would really make the difference! > >> > >>That being said, I have neither the talent nor the time to write such a > >>book, but I think someone who did might even be able to earn a decent > >>profit from it. > >> > >>-Chris > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > >>Oceanographer > >> > >>NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice > >>7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > >>Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > >> > >>Chr...@no... > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------- > >>This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > >>Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > >>GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > >>administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Webware-discuss mailing list > >>Web...@li... > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > >_______________________________________________ > >Webware-discuss mailing list > >Web...@li... > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > > > > > > > -- > -Aaron > http://www.MetroNY.com/ > If the car industry behaved like the computer industry over the last 30 years, > a Rolls-Royce would cost $5, get 300 miles per gallon, and blow up once a year > killing all passengers inside. > > |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-23 03:05:21
|
Perhaps I could however whack together a short tutorial on the basics of getting a simple cgi-like servlet happening and then a few ideas how to use the more stateful/servlet-y properties of webware. Erm. Should I use one of the wiki's to do this? Is the new one stable enuff to trust it with a bunch of work? -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Shayne ONeill wrote: > > Again. Its one of those things I could probably do well. I guess the > problem for me personally is I'd have to find a publisher for me to > justify the rather large time investment book writing takes. > > I'd probably also have to get someone else to lookysee in on the NT stuff > as I'm usually a linux guy these days. That said, I do have a reasonable > degree in experience on Com type programming, alas not thru python. > > -- > Shayne O'Neill > http://perth.indymedia.org > I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > ----George W. Bush > > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Aaron Held wrote: > > > I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some > > tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. > > > > I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few less > > then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. > > > > Something like Enterprise Integration in Python would be interesing - > > focus on webware but do python things like NT Service integration, > > Manage MS Exchange, XMLRPC, long running threads etc... > > > > There are lots of things Python can do easily that are hard in Java, and > > there are more things that Webware can do well that PHP can't. (I like > > to position it as the elegance of J2EE w/ the development speed of PHP) > > > > I think that a webware book should focus on tasks done well in Python > > and webware. (Otherwise it seen as a less capable Java server or > > overly complex PHP clone). > > > > Thanks, > > -Aaron Held > > > > Shayne ONeill wrote: > > > > >Hmm. A book. > > > > > >I'm wondering if I should/could put my hands up on that one. > > > > > >Being that I'm a journo by trade, I'm thinking I might be able to pull it > > >off. Now that said, I'd need some serious ears when I had a question to > > >bounce off. That said, I'm a reasonable enough programmer, or I'd like to > > >think I am :) > > > > > >Perhaps the trick is I write a sample chapter and throw it at a few > > >publishers (orielly etc) and see if theres any interest. If theres not, I > > >doubt I could justify the expenditure of time, but if there is interest > > >It'd be a damn great way to spend this currently-between-jobs period I'm > > >in. > > > > > >Whats the vibes here? > > > > > >-- > > >Shayne O'Neill > > >http://perth.indymedia.org > > >I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > > > ----George W. Bush > > > > > >On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Chris Barker wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>Douglas Burchard wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>Would something other than a wrench fit better? For example: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>I like the wrench a lot, I think "tools" when I think of Webware. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> <http://www.douglasburchard.com/demo-logo_01.jpg> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>the feather ties it to Apache too much. while most of us probably use it > > >>with Apache, it is NOT an Apache extension. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>I know, there are several problems with this specific example, but > > >>>perhaps someone could offer a better metaphor... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>Maybe a way to use the wrench, and something that says: "web". A globe, > > >>perhaps a wrench adjusting the globe? I'm NOT a designer, so I'm not > > >>going ot even try to make an image out of that idea! > > >> > > >>More than a good website, more than a logo, what Webware needs to get > > >>some real exposure and use is a Book. I had a colleague who had worked > > >>with me on a Python based project, then set out to build a web app. > > >>After looking through the books on developing for the web with Python, > > >>and buying "Web Programming in Python", he was thoroughly confused about > > >>what combinations of tools to use (CGI, mod_python, mod_snake, jonpy, > > >>quiote, webware, etc.). If there was a book: "Building web applications > > >>with Python and Webware", that told you what tools to use, and how to > > >>use them, he probably would have used it. Instead, he was faced with > > >>Zope, which he didn't really like. So, he bought a book that told him > > >>how to use PHP and MySQL to do what he wanted. He didn't like PHP > > >>better, what he liked was that there weren't so many options he had to > > >>choose from for every part of the project. A self contained book about > > >>Webware would really make the difference! > > >> > > >>That being said, I have neither the talent nor the time to write such a > > >>book, but I think someone who did might even be able to earn a decent > > >>profit from it. > > >> > > >>-Chris > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > > >>Oceanographer > > >> > > >>NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice > > >>7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > > >>Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > >> > > >>Chr...@no... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------- > > >>This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > > >>Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > > >>GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > > >>administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Webware-discuss mailing list > > >>Web...@li... > > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > > >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > > >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > > >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Webware-discuss mailing list > > >Web...@li... > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -Aaron > > http://www.MetroNY.com/ > > If the car industry behaved like the computer industry over the last 30 years, > > a Rolls-Royce would cost $5, get 300 miles per gallon, and blow up once a year > > killing all passengers inside. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: The Robotic Monkeys at ThinkGeek > For a limited time only, get FREE Ground shipping on all orders of $35 > or more. Hurry up and shop folks, this offer expires April 30th! > http://www.thinkgeek.com/freeshipping/?cpg=12297 > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2004-04-23 05:13:02
|
On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:50 PM, Shayne ONeill wrote: > Erm. Should I use one of the wiki's to do this? Is the new one stable > enuff to trust it with a bunch of work? Sure -- it saves everything right away to plain text files, and the only exceptions I've seen lately are from bots making invalid requests (dumb bots). I'd advise using external editor -- it's a better writing experience, and it's pretty careful to avoid losing work (e.g., if you save a file and quite the editor, and zopeedit.py gets an exception when you try to save the file, then it'll ask you if you want to reopen the file with your changes). -- Ian Bicking | ia...@co... | http://blog.ianbicking.org |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-23 05:19:57
|
Have you guys seen 'epoz' (now renamed to 'kupu')? I've been trying to integrate it with the code i'm doing. Its quite an astonishing html editor thats all javascript and looks and works great. Caveat: ie5.5 + or moz. and not ie5.5 on mac. However it really is the same user experience as working within word or its ilk. Infact I've been told you can copy from word and paste into kupu and it retains formatting via some sort of wierd deep magic. I've integrated into my little tinpot wiki, tho I'm having awful problems getting the ie layout right. Partly cos I dont have ie to play with! But it makes things sure nice. -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Ian Bicking wrote: > On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:50 PM, Shayne ONeill wrote: > > Erm. Should I use one of the wiki's to do this? Is the new one stable > > enuff to trust it with a bunch of work? > > Sure -- it saves everything right away to plain text files, and the > only exceptions I've seen lately are from bots making invalid requests > (dumb bots). I'd advise using external editor -- it's a better writing > experience, and it's pretty careful to avoid losing work (e.g., if you > save a file and quite the editor, and zopeedit.py gets an exception > when you try to save the file, then it'll ask you if you want to reopen > the file with your changes). > > -- > Ian Bicking | ia...@co... | http://blog.ianbicking.org > > |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2004-04-23 05:46:35
|
Also of interest is htmlarea: http://www.interactivetools.com/products/htmlarea/ I think if I was going to do WYSIWYG on a new project, I'd use that. On Apr 23, 2004, at 12:05 AM, Shayne ONeill wrote: > Have you guys seen 'epoz' (now renamed to 'kupu')? I've been trying to > integrate it with the code i'm doing. Its quite an astonishing html > editor > thats all javascript and looks and works great. > > Caveat: ie5.5 + or moz. and not ie5.5 on mac. > > However it really is the same user experience as working within word or > its ilk. Infact I've been told you can copy from word and paste into > kupu > and it retains formatting via some sort of wierd deep magic. > > I've integrated into my little tinpot wiki, tho I'm having awful > problems > getting the ie layout right. Partly cos I dont have ie to play with! > But > it makes things sure nice. > > -- > Shayne O'Neill > http://perth.indymedia.org > I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > ----George W. Bush > > On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Ian Bicking wrote: > >> On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:50 PM, Shayne ONeill wrote: >>> Erm. Should I use one of the wiki's to do this? Is the new one stable >>> enuff to trust it with a bunch of work? >> >> Sure -- it saves everything right away to plain text files, and the >> only exceptions I've seen lately are from bots making invalid requests >> (dumb bots). I'd advise using external editor -- it's a better >> writing >> experience, and it's pretty careful to avoid losing work (e.g., if you >> save a file and quite the editor, and zopeedit.py gets an exception >> when you try to save the file, then it'll ask you if you want to >> reopen >> the file with your changes). |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2004-04-23 03:15:17
|
On Apr 22, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Aaron Held wrote: > I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some > tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. > > I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few > less then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. I agree -- I don't think a Webware book would work. In fact, I don't think Python is ready for any web programming books (except Zope -- but even those suck tremendously, so maybe Zope isn't ready either ;). The books that have existed seem to be scattered and incomplete, or just cover one framework under the guise of being general. There was one that covered Slither, I think... ever heard of Slither? I hadn't. There's another book with a chapter on Webware/PSP -- I haven't had the heart to even read the final version. I reviewed it, and the structure was horrible, with none of the depth where it was necessary, and pedantic coverage of useless details elsewhere -- when they returned a second draft with none of the changes I suggested, I gave up on them. The reality is that Python web programming is a fucking mess. It's pathetic. There's no way to write a book, because there's no material that's appropriate book material. I like Webware, but it's not going to take over the world, not even the modest Python world. Neither will Zope, not even Zope 3... and if I thought it would, maybe I'd switch over happily. Well, to Zope 3, Zope 2 is a fucking mess, and fixing it only makes it worse, and I know I'll never be happy there. All the other frameworks are in the same shape as Webware -- they have some users, occasional spurts of activity. Some have solid enough communities to have a viable future, but many do not. None of them is compellingly great. Yes, even Webware. BTW, if anyone wants to talk about these larger issues, Web-SIG is probably an appropriate venue: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig -- feel free to post anything that comes to your mind, it's too damn quiet there. -- Ian Bicking | ia...@co... | http://blog.ianbicking.org |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-23 03:40:59
|
Actually the webware chapter in dietel was probably the only part of the book that really failed imho. Only because it missed the good stuff and concentrated on the psp. That said, theres probably rhyme and reason there in that it was intending to show that such a beast does exist, although I'm inclined to thing webwares psp support is less important now that mod_python does the same thing (I think). The Dietel book was fantastic otherwise. Lots and lots and lots of good stuff. On general python it was well written, pretty much everything I've needed to find on python is in there. And the examples are great. Essentially I use it as a reference. I wonder if its worth writing a "good" chapter on webware, and hawking it out to the book venders for inclusion in whatever python tome they come out with next? -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Ian Bicking wrote: > On Apr 22, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Aaron Held wrote: > > I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some > > tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. > > > > I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few > > less then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. > > I agree -- I don't think a Webware book would work. In fact, I don't > think Python is ready for any web programming books (except Zope -- but > even those suck tremendously, so maybe Zope isn't ready either ;). > > The books that have existed seem to be scattered and incomplete, or > just cover one framework under the guise of being general. There was > one that covered Slither, I think... ever heard of Slither? I hadn't. > There's another book with a chapter on Webware/PSP -- I haven't had the > heart to even read the final version. I reviewed it, and the structure > was horrible, with none of the depth where it was necessary, and > pedantic coverage of useless details elsewhere -- when they returned a > second draft with none of the changes I suggested, I gave up on them. > > The reality is that Python web programming is a fucking mess. It's > pathetic. There's no way to write a book, because there's no material > that's appropriate book material. I like Webware, but it's not going > to take over the world, not even the modest Python world. Neither will > Zope, not even Zope 3... and if I thought it would, maybe I'd switch > over happily. Well, to Zope 3, Zope 2 is a fucking mess, and fixing it > only makes it worse, and I know I'll never be happy there. All the > other frameworks are in the same shape as Webware -- they have some > users, occasional spurts of activity. Some have solid enough > communities to have a viable future, but many do not. None of them is > compellingly great. Yes, even Webware. > > BTW, if anyone wants to talk about these larger issues, Web-SIG is > probably an appropriate venue: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig -- > feel free to post anything that comes to your mind, it's too damn quiet > there. > > -- > Ian Bicking | ia...@co... | http://blog.ianbicking.org > > |
From: Chris B. <Chr...@no...> - 2004-04-23 16:17:47
|
Ian Bicking wrote: > I agree -- I don't think a Webware book would work. In fact, I don't > think Python is ready for any web programming books It's very ready..but what should that book look like? Personally, I really like Steve Holden's book, but it's at a low level. It has the stuff I need to understand to be able to someday work with the internals of a package like Webware, but if you want to just put a site together, the publishing world makes it look like ZOPE or straight CGI is your only answer. > or just > cover one framework under the guise of being general. There was one > that covered Slither, I think... ever heard of Slither? I think Slither was pretty much written for the book, as was Holden's AWeFUL, although Holden was quite clear that AWeFUL was meant to be a teaching example, not a robust framework. > The reality is that Python web programming is a fucking mess. It's > pathetic. There's no way to write a book, because there's no material > that's appropriate book material. I think this is a chicken-egg thing. Books are used by the general public as a way to gage the viability of something. The fact that there are a lot of Python books helps a lot of folks see it as viable. Also, I don't think one could just write a Webware book with Webware as it stands. Writing the book would help highlight a LOT of places that Webware needs to be cleaned-up, improved, added-to, etc. It doesn't have to a be a whole book, any one chapter in the Wiki will help. > I like Webware, but it's not going to > take over the world, not even the modest Python world. It doesn't need to take over the world. Frankly, I had a very hard time choosing between Quixote, CherryPy, Albatross, Webware, etc, etc. If Any of these had really comprehensive documentation (i.e., a book), I'd have gone with it. > All the > other frameworks are in the same shape as Webware -- they have some > users, occasional spurts of activity. Some have solid enough > communities to have a viable future, but many do not. None of them is > compellingly great. Yes, even Webware. Right, it's like the GUI frameworks, only worse. And it hurts Python adoption a lot. Frankly, it seems to me that there are a Huge number of frameworks that were written with a "more lightweight than Zope" goal, and I didn't see a clear distinction. Unfortunately, I think there is too small a barrier to entry, so a lot of people decide to roll their own. > BTW, if anyone wants to talk about these larger issues, Web-SIG is > probably an appropriate venue: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig That is a good idea. Personally, I have far to little to offer. I just want something simple, complete and documented that works. I think I started this thread because I had a colleague who was considering using Python to build a web app. If I could have pointed him to a book (or a web site, I suppose, but a book gives added legitimacy) that he could read, and it would tell him how to do everything he needed to do, he would have used it. As it was, he found himself wading through all the various web app frameworks out there, and then looking at a PHP book, that told him just how do so what he needed (A fairly simple database-backed web app.) I have a level of commitment to Python that got me this far, but I'd really like that book too! Shayne ONeill wrote: > I wonder if its worth writing a "good" chapter on webware, and hawking it > out to the book venders for inclusion in whatever python tome they come > out with next? Well, that could help, but it might just contribute to the "There's more than one way to do it" state of web development with Python. Todd Grimason wrote: > Seems one group just > needs to make a kick-ass framework, push it hard, and build support, > Darwin (the guy not OS) style. Not an easy thing to do... but not > impossible! Exactly. It's hard without the profit motive...Open source projects tend to get to the point where they are useful to their developers easily...getting beyond that is tough. What's the motivation? Anyway, the recent work on updated the web site, and getting new stuff in a nice Wiki is a great move in the right direction. If we really keep building the wiki, it could turn into a good basis for a book some day. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chr...@no... |
From: Matt F. <ma...@da...> - 2004-03-30 04:09:44
|
I like the design, but the small versions don't read well. They'll probably need to be adapted so that the reversed text is either axed or legible. And maybe a crop-in on the snake's face for the small one, for the same reason. This is pretty SOP for folks who do identity design (as you probably know). Although sameness is very important, in reality, to *look the same* is more important than *being the same*. Adaptation is often required for small sizes on low-resolution media (like displays) ... to typography in particular. I like the concept, I'm comfortable with the "vibe" of it (am not concerned about corporate-ness) but I agree that the wrench isn't perhaps the most "web" thing. Of course, I don't have a better suggestion. :-) Kudos, though, this is nice! Jacob Hanson wrote: >I made a couple of adjustments that add some of that without giving >up the overall jovial nature. And I made some little 'powered by' images. > > > > |
From: Frank B. <fb...@fo...> - 2004-03-30 08:25:12
|
Hallo, Matt Feifarek hat gesagt: // Matt Feifarek wrote: > I like the concept, I'm comfortable with the "vibe" of it (am not > concerned about corporate-ness) but I agree that the wrench isn't > perhaps the most "web" thing. Of course, I don't have a better > suggestion. :-) Hammer and sickle? ;) ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__ |
From: Frank B. <fb...@fo...> - 2004-03-29 23:46:17
|
Hallo, Chuck Esterbrook hat gesagt: // Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > I agree with everything Ian said here. Me, too. ;) In my opinion a logo is not important at all, or at least a decision could be made much later. What *is* important, though, is a website relaunch. And this is *much* more important than what logo later on should be at the top of the page. But a website that has almost the same content as last year really doesn't give that good an impression for a project like Webware. Just my .05 cents. ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__ |
From: Paul M. <pf_...@ya...> - 2004-04-23 19:22:14
|
Thomas E Jenkins <mo...@ca...> writes: > For me it was incredibly painful trying to figure out the "proper" way > to deliver a Webware based site. A few nice examples of reasonably > complete sites would go a long way. Agreed. Oracle have recently incorporated a thing called HTML DB into their database - essentially it's a web-based development platform for producing web applications which do database display/update transactions. They are marketing it as a competitor to MS Access. I've used it to develop a simple web-based application, and it's very nice, but the developer UI is lousy, and minor cosmetic changes are far too hard. I'd love to redevelop in Python, but can't work out how to start. What I'd like is one or more sample applications with: * A decent look & feel to them (I'm lousy at design, and I much prefer to nick other people's :-) * Tabular displays based on a database query, including paging where there are a lot of rows * A "create record" page * An update page, accessible from the table display by clicking on a row * Some sort of search page * Support for multiple tables (either a tabbed display, with one table per tab, or a sidebar menu with entries for each table - something like that) * Username/password login In my experience, *lots* of applications have basically this database update structure. The success of MS Access and similar tools leads me to think that I'm not alone in this experience. Having a Python/ Webware sample application which offers this structure would be a big win. Given that a significant advantage of Python/Webware is the way that you can separate logic from look, and build apps up from components, maybe better would be having sample components - tab-based UI, sidebar-menu UI, database display, database update, login, etc, with examples of hooking them together. Actually, the look & feel side of things is probably the main point here. It's not really that hard to hack together a table display page, but it looks hacked together. The real selling point with HTML DB was that we hacked together an application, but the default look & feel *looked* slick. Paul. -- This signature intentionally left blank |
From: Jason H. <ja...@pe...> - 2004-03-30 04:51:08
|
On Mon, 2004-03-29 at 16:06, Ian Bicking wrote: > In that light, Webware needs not to show that it is corporate, but > that > it is alive and actively supported. And even if there's not a huge > amount of active development of the Webware core, it *is* > consistently > supported by the community on this list. And an enlightened manager > *will* still be concerned about the viability of the project. I agree very much with this sentiment. Well-articulated, Ian. I really like the logo, too, and would be happy to go with it (good work, Jacob!), although I think Matt Feifarek makes some good suggestions for improving the small versions. -- Jason D. Hildebrand ja...@pe... |
From: Todd G. <to...@sl...> - 2004-04-23 03:56:17
|
* Ian Bicking <ia...@co...> [2004-04-22 23:26]: > On Apr 22, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Aaron Held wrote: > > I would love to see a book - I've taught webware and written some > > tutorials and guides - but nothing recent. > > > > I think a pure webware book would fail, and there have been a few > > less then interesting Web Development in Python books as well. > > I agree -- I don't think a Webware book would work. In fact, I don't > think Python is ready for any web programming books (except Zope -- but > even those suck tremendously, so maybe Zope isn't ready either ;). I'd agree and say just a decent [up to date with CVS or 0.8] tutorial would be the best balance and use of time. Perhaps implementing whatever the common example is for Java servlets these days - the Petstore? I think the petstore is actually the whole J2EE fruit salad. Anyways, I think the most alluring and useful tutorial would be targeted at servlet/jsp developers, as the servlet paradigm is similar, as is the ability to run an appserver on its own, which often the masses using PHP don't have. And with Jython, BSF, and noise around Groovy the javafolks are likely to come across Python. > The reality is that Python web programming is a fucking mess. It's > pathetic. There's no way to write a book, because there's no material It does seem so. Perhaps a chicken/egg situation. Or lack of a niche - those who can will run servlet (or full J2EE) containers, others mod_php. (And the whole MS world too.) How much middle ground is there? The most visible opportunities to ever get much of an improvement to me would be having it run near-transparently on top of java servlet containers (or .NET? I don't know anything about it) or have mod_python fork and grow the 'safe_mode' features mod_php does so that ISPs could deploy it as easily and widely as PHP. > BTW, if anyone wants to talk about these larger issues, Web-SIG is > probably an appropriate venue: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig -- > feel free to post anything that comes to your mind, it's too damn quiet > there. I think exasperation hit all the participants in web-sig. Hands thrown up. Without a top-down, BSD- or BDFL-like process driving this sort of project, people seem to talk for a bit then just go and choose the one of the 349870987 frameworks they like the best. Seems one group just needs to make a kick-ass framework, push it hard, and build support, Darwin (the guy not OS) style. Not an easy thing to do... but not impossible! -- ___________________________ toddgrimason*to...@sl... |
From: Thomas E J. <mo...@ca...> - 2004-04-23 06:06:13
|
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 23:56 -0400, Todd Grimason wrote: > * Ian Bicking <ia...@co...> [2004-04-22 23:26]: > I'd agree and say just a decent [up to date with CVS or 0.8] tutorial > would be the best balance and use of time. Perhaps implementing > whatever the common example is for Java servlets these days - the > Petstore? I think the petstore is actually the whole J2EE fruit salad. > > Anyways, I think the most alluring and useful tutorial would be > targeted at servlet/jsp developers, as the servlet paradigm is > similar, as is the ability to run an appserver on its own, which often > the masses using PHP don't have. And with Jython, BSF, and noise > around Groovy the javafolks are likely to come across Python. For me it was incredibly painful trying to figure out the "proper" way to deliver a Webware based site. A few nice examples of reasonably complete sites would go a long way. I remember trying to use the vorbis site as an example and quickly abandoning it. It almost seems because Webware caters to a crowd that appreciates a simple and reasonably low-level platform, everyone that uses it is content/capable of building everything they need from scratch. The only reason I stuck with it was I was trying to make a "write it in anything want" job more interesting. A glance at the Wiki gives you: * A high level description of a transaction. * General pointers on MVC style design. * Setting up Apache. * Tips on common setup errors. * Ideas for applications. Not terribly useful to uninitiated. At best there is tentative suggestions instead of best practices. Since the extent of my web-devel work was PHP and I was also new to Python, I would have killed for: * A complete example of a non template (pure servlets) site. * A complete example of a Cheetah and/or PSP and/or ZTPL site. * When/Where/How to use Actions. * Best practices for managing DB connections. * Easier to grok SecurePage (maybe that's just me). * Best practices for integrating FunFormKit or FormKit. Perhaps people have apprehensions about advocating their method as *the method*, but I think a forum where multiple examples are available could alleviate that. -- Thomas E Jenkins <mo...@ca...> |
From: David L. <dav...@bl...> - 2004-04-23 07:44:18
|
On Friday 23 Apr 2004 07:06, Thomas E Jenkins wrote: > Not terribly useful to uninitiated. At best there is tentative > suggestions instead of best practices. Since the extent of my web-devel > work was PHP and I was also new to Python, I would have killed for: > > * A complete example of a non template (pure servlets) site. > * A complete example of a Cheetah and/or PSP and/or ZTPL site. > * When/Where/How to use Actions. > * Best practices for managing DB connections. > * Easier to grok SecurePage (maybe that's just me). > * Best practices for integrating FunFormKit or FormKit. > > Perhaps people have apprehensions about advocating their method as *the > method*, but I think a forum where multiple examples are available could > alleviate that. Yes please. The w4py wiki code is really helpful in getting ideas & understanding how to do things. The more the better. David |