From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2001-04-20 08:03:49
Attachments:
ST.tar.gz
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I added DTML support to this as well. Not quite sure why -- because I can, I suppose. Not sure if DTML is so great to imitate, but hey. The biggest missing feature is evaluation of Python expressions, like <dtml-if expr="value > 100">, but that is somewhat seperate. I'm not sure how to do that the Right Way. Should it be secure (restricted)? What would the local bindings be? Maybe DTML isn't really so useful anyway -- you can't port DTML without also porting the entire Zope environment (which would be rather pointless), and DTML isn't otherwise so powerful or so well known to be that useful. But I do want to encorporate other external syntaxes. Like Dreamweaver uses: <!--#BeginEditable "editableName"--><!--#EndEditable--> It's kind of crude, but it's vaguely workable. You could even take a page and use body, meta description, meta keywords, and title tags to define a simple, structured document that could be inserted elsewhere. These are the sorts of things I'm trying to move towards. Kind of content-management from the bottom up. Anyway, I need to refactor everything a bunch soon, but I figured I'd send this out anyway, for arguments sake, or because I just finished it and I feel like sharing. It's not as documented as the HTML/ZPT-like templates, but it more or less mirrors it. It's attached. I'll refactor and Kit-ize it soon, I suppose. Probably implement the brace-syntax (which is probably the easiest) to get a better feel for how things should be factored. Still need a better name. -- Ian Bicking Colorstudy Web Design ia...@co... http://www.colorstudy.com homepage: http://www.colorstudy.com/ianb 4769 N Talman Ave, Chicago, IL 60625 / (773) 275-7241 |
From: Irene B. <ib...@as...> - 2001-04-20 14:16:36
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Ian, I'll apologize up front for saying this, but DTML is why I stopped using Zope! Why would you want to implement the one thing that was Zope's achilles heel? Sequence-items in the "dtml-in" statement drove me nuts (and my husband would say "that's a short trip"). Webware should stay away of anything that smacks of Zope. Sorry. --irene Ian Bicking wrote: > > I added DTML support to this as well. Not quite sure why -- because I > can, I suppose. Not sure if DTML is so great to imitate, but hey. > The biggest missing feature is evaluation of Python expressions, like > <dtml-if expr="value > 100">, but that is somewhat seperate. I'm not > sure how to do that the Right Way. Should it be secure (restricted)? > What would the local bindings be? > > Maybe DTML isn't really so useful anyway -- you can't port DTML > without also porting the entire Zope environment (which would be > rather pointless), and DTML isn't otherwise so powerful or so well > known to be that useful. > > But I do want to encorporate other external syntaxes. Like > Dreamweaver uses: > <!--#BeginEditable "editableName"--><!--#EndEditable--> > It's kind of crude, but it's vaguely workable. You could even take > a page and use body, meta description, meta keywords, and title tags > to define a simple, structured document that could be inserted > elsewhere. These are the sorts of things I'm trying to move towards. > Kind of content-management from the bottom up. > > Anyway, I need to refactor everything a bunch soon, but I figured I'd > send this out anyway, for arguments sake, or because I just finished > it and I feel like sharing. It's not as documented as the > HTML/ZPT-like templates, but it more or less mirrors it. > > It's attached. I'll refactor and Kit-ize it soon, I suppose. > Probably implement the brace-syntax (which is probably the easiest) to > get a better feel for how things should be factored. Still need a > better name. > > -- > Ian Bicking Colorstudy Web Design > ia...@co... http://www.colorstudy.com > homepage: http://www.colorstudy.com/ianb > 4769 N Talman Ave, Chicago, IL 60625 / (773) 275-7241 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: ST.tar.gz > ST.tar.gz Type: Unix Tape Archive (application/x-tar) > Encoding: base64 -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Irene Barg Email: ib...@as... Steward Observatory Phone: 520-621-2602 933 N. Cherry Ave. University of Arizona FAX: 520-621-1891 Tucson, AZ 85721 http://nickel.as.arizona.edu/~barg ---------------------------------------------------------------- |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2001-04-20 14:38:45
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At 07:16 AM 4/20/2001 -0700, Irene Barg wrote: >Ian, > >I'll apologize up front for saying this, but DTML is why >I stopped using Zope! Why would you want to implement >the one thing that was Zope's achilles heel? Sequence-items >in the "dtml-in" statement drove me nuts (and my husband >would say "that's a short trip"). Webware should stay >away of anything that smacks of Zope. Sorry. > >--irene Well I proposed an earlier templating language called DTML(*)lite. The (*) means that it's different, the lite means that there's less to it. The idea was to give a simple, clean templating language to HTML designers who know nothing of Python. Ian's work could be the vehicle for realizing "DTML(*)lite". -Chuck |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2001-04-20 17:42:21
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I wasn't defending DTML. It was just an exercise, to see if it was doable. It's one of the few template systems I am familiar with... if there's other systems that seem better and more worthy of copying, I'd be interested. I'm trying to work out the underlying interfaces more, at this point, so the more novel the template language the better. Maybe I'll try Zebra with lazy evaluation (i.e., compilation). The actual merits of the template language are less important in some ways. Irene Barg <ib...@as...> wrote: > Ian, > > I'll apologize up front for saying this, but DTML is why > I stopped using Zope! Why would you want to implement > the one thing that was Zope's achilles heel? Sequence-items > in the "dtml-in" statement drove me nuts (and my husband > would say "that's a short trip"). Webware should stay > away of anything that smacks of Zope. Sorry. > > --irene > > Ian Bicking wrote: > > > > I added DTML support to this as well. Not quite sure why -- because I > > can, I suppose. Not sure if DTML is so great to imitate, but hey. > > The biggest missing feature is evaluation of Python expressions, like > > <dtml-if expr="value > 100">, but that is somewhat seperate. I'm not > > sure how to do that the Right Way. Should it be secure (restricted)? > > What would the local bindings be? > > > > Maybe DTML isn't really so useful anyway -- you can't port DTML > > without also porting the entire Zope environment (which would be > > rather pointless), and DTML isn't otherwise so powerful or so well > > known to be that useful. > > > > But I do want to encorporate other external syntaxes. Like > > Dreamweaver uses: > > <!--#BeginEditable "editableName"--><!--#EndEditable--> > > It's kind of crude, but it's vaguely workable. You could even take > > a page and use body, meta description, meta keywords, and title tags > > to define a simple, structured document that could be inserted > > elsewhere. These are the sorts of things I'm trying to move towards. > > Kind of content-management from the bottom up. > > > > Anyway, I need to refactor everything a bunch soon, but I figured I'd > > send this out anyway, for arguments sake, or because I just finished > > it and I feel like sharing. It's not as documented as the > > HTML/ZPT-like templates, but it more or less mirrors it. > > > > It's attached. I'll refactor and Kit-ize it soon, I suppose. > > Probably implement the brace-syntax (which is probably the easiest) to > > get a better feel for how things should be factored. Still need a > > better name. > > > > -- > > Ian Bicking Colorstudy Web Design > > ia...@co... http://www.colorstudy.com > > homepage: http://www.colorstudy.com/ianb > > 4769 N Talman Ave, Chicago, IL 60625 / (773) 275-7241 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Name: ST.tar.gz > > ST.tar.gz Type: Unix Tape Archive (application/x-tar) > > Encoding: base64 > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Irene Barg Email: ib...@as... > Steward Observatory Phone: 520-621-2602 > 933 N. Cherry Ave. > University of Arizona FAX: 520-621-1891 > Tucson, AZ 85721 http://nickel.as.arizona.edu/~barg > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > |
From: Terrel S. <tsh...@ic...> - 2001-04-20 19:19:31
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Irene Barg wrote:Ian, > > I'll apologize up front for saying this, but DTML is why > I stopped using Zope! Why would you want to implement > the one thing that was Zope's achilles heel? Sequence-items > in the "dtml-in" statement drove me nuts (and my husband > would say "that's a short trip"). Webware should stay > away of anything that smacks of Zope. Sorry. A little short of DTML Zen? 8-) Transparency is not one of Zope's strong points. Fortunately, Webware is still small enough that it is still understandable. Hopefully, it will stay that way. Chuck's "standard is as standard does" motto is a good insurance policy against being forced to use a templating package that you don't understand. Figure out exactly what it is about Zope that you didn't like, and we may be able to avoid those pitfalls, without necessarily avoiding the things that Zope (or ASP or JSP or Cold Fusion or Tomcat or Enhydra) does right. |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2001-04-20 19:45:19
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Terrel Shumway <tsh...@ic...> wrote: > A little short of DTML Zen? 8-) Transparency is not one of Zope's > strong points. > > Fortunately, Webware is still small enough that it is still > understandable. Hopefully, it will stay that way. Chuck's > "standard is as standard does" motto is a good insurance policy > against being forced to use a templating package that you don't > understand. Figure out exactly what it is about Zope that you > didn't like, and we may be able to avoid those pitfalls, without > necessarily avoiding the things that Zope (or ASP or JSP or Cold > Fusion or Tomcat or Enhydra) does right. I think the problem I had with Zope wasn't its complexity, but the complexity of understanding it. I felt I was always muddling through, because I could never understand any one part completely. If I had continued with Zope and come to understand all of it completely (uh... sure), then I suppose I wouldn't have that problem anymore. If Webware does well in contrast to this, it isn't necessarily because it remains simpler than Zope (though that's good too), but because you can understand the various parts completely in isolation. I think the template systems could be of whatever internal complexity -- the Best Template System will make the Best Compromises this way. Or something. But I would hope that all the template systems remain isolated from WebKit et. al. That is, you feed data into a template, you get a string back. That's the sort of thing you can understand without understanding anything else in Webware. Maybe you can get a procedure or maybe class back, but I think if, say, you get a servlet back from a template you are hitting a level of interdependance which makes things hard to understand. The fact is, to do everything that Zope does you have to be pretty complicated. Or: Greenspun's Tenth Rule of Programming: any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. The same probably goes for Zope. And Common Lisp never got praises for being pretty either. I'd take Smalltalk as an inspiration -- it contains most of what Common Lisp contains, but with a coherent elegance that Common Lisp lacks. Perhaps Webware could be to Zope what Smalltalk is to Common Lisp. ASP, PHP, and such are more like C -- beautifully(?) minimal, but only if you are writing Hello World programs. Ian |
From: Mike O. <ir...@ms...> - 2001-04-20 21:46:10
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On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:45:13PM -0500, Ian Bicking wrote: > If Webware does well in contrast to this, it isn't necessarily because > it remains simpler than Zope (though that's good too), but because you > can understand the various parts completely in isolation. Hear, hear! -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@ji...) http://mso.oz.net/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Irene B. <ib...@as...> - 2001-04-20 17:54:59
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Ian, Again, excuse my knee-jerk reaction. I don't hate Zope, I just don't like DTML. It's possible that other Webware 'users' might have the same reaction? Maybe just call it something else. I appreciate all Webware developers, because I'm a beneficiary of all of your hard work! Cheers, --irene Ian Bicking wrote: > > I wasn't defending DTML. It was just an exercise, to see if it was > doable. It's one of the few template systems I am familiar with... if > there's other systems that seem better and more worthy of copying, I'd > be interested. > > I'm trying to work out the underlying interfaces more, at this point, > so the more novel the template language the better. Maybe I'll try > Zebra with lazy evaluation (i.e., compilation). The actual merits of > the template language are less important in some ways. > > Irene Barg <ib...@as...> wrote: > > Ian, > > > > I'll apologize up front for saying this, but DTML is why > > I stopped using Zope! Why would you want to implement > > the one thing that was Zope's achilles heel? Sequence-items > > in the "dtml-in" statement drove me nuts (and my husband > > would say "that's a short trip"). Webware should stay > > away of anything that smacks of Zope. Sorry. > > > > --irene > > > > Ian Bicking wrote: > > > > > > I added DTML support to this as well. Not quite sure why -- because I > > > can, I suppose. Not sure if DTML is so great to imitate, but hey. > > > The biggest missing feature is evaluation of Python expressions, like > > > <dtml-if expr="value > 100">, but that is somewhat seperate. I'm not > > > sure how to do that the Right Way. Should it be secure (restricted)? > > > What would the local bindings be? > > > > > > Maybe DTML isn't really so useful anyway -- you can't port DTML > > > without also porting the entire Zope environment (which would be > > > rather pointless), and DTML isn't otherwise so powerful or so well > > > known to be that useful. > > > > > > But I do want to encorporate other external syntaxes. Like > > > Dreamweaver uses: > > > <!--#BeginEditable "editableName"--><!--#EndEditable--> > > > It's kind of crude, but it's vaguely workable. You could even take > > > a page and use body, meta description, meta keywords, and title tags > > > to define a simple, structured document that could be inserted > > > elsewhere. These are the sorts of things I'm trying to move towards. > > > Kind of content-management from the bottom up. > > > > > > Anyway, I need to refactor everything a bunch soon, but I figured I'd > > > send this out anyway, for arguments sake, or because I just finished > > > it and I feel like sharing. It's not as documented as the > > > HTML/ZPT-like templates, but it more or less mirrors it. > > > > > > It's attached. I'll refactor and Kit-ize it soon, I suppose. > > > Probably implement the brace-syntax (which is probably the easiest) to > > > get a better feel for how things should be factored. Still need a > > > better name. > > > > > > -- > > > Ian Bicking Colorstudy Web Design > > > ia...@co... http://www.colorstudy.com > > > homepage: http://www.colorstudy.com/ianb > > > 4769 N Talman Ave, Chicago, IL 60625 / (773) 275-7241 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Name: ST.tar.gz > > > ST.tar.gz Type: Unix Tape Archive (application/x-tar) > > > Encoding: base64 > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Irene Barg Email: ib...@as... > > Steward Observatory Phone: 520-621-2602 > > 933 N. Cherry Ave. > > University of Arizona FAX: 520-621-1891 > > Tucson, AZ 85721 http://nickel.as.arizona.edu/~barg > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Irene Barg Email: ib...@as... Steward Observatory Phone: 520-621-2602 933 N. Cherry Ave. University of Arizona FAX: 520-621-1891 Tucson, AZ 85721 http://nickel.as.arizona.edu/~barg ---------------------------------------------------------------- |