#443 @resp should be a member of att.global

GREEN
closed-fixed
Martin Holmes
6
2014-12-10
2013-03-11
Martin Holmes
No

This suggestion was originally raised in 2005, and closed because the discussion stalled: http://purl.org/tei/fr/1173968. The idea came up again on the Council list here:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2013/017238.html

I think there are strong arguments for the use of @resp in a wide range of different contexts. As Gaby says, " I can't imagine any element that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so tagged comes."

Related

Feature Requests: #443
Feature Requests: #536

Discussion

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  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-06-27

    @Gaby: re your second question, I see that respons/@resp is only a single pointer, whereas att.responsibility/@resp is multiple pointers. In addition, the definitions are subtly different, although the similarity of the descs suggests this is accidental:

    respons/@resp:
    (responsible party) identifies the individual or agency responsible for the indicated aspect of the electronic text.

    a pointer to one of the identifiers typically but not necessarily declared in the current document header, associated with a person asserted as responsible for some aspect of the text's creation, transcription, editing, or encoding

    att.responsibility/@resp:
    responsible party) indicates the agency responsible for the intervention or interpretation, for example an editor or transcriber.

    A pointer to an element typically, but not necessarily, in the document header that is associated with a person asserted as responsible for some aspect of the text's creation, transcription, editing, or encoding.

    I think it would be useful to bring these into alignment anyway, allowing multiple values in respons/@resp, and one obvious way of doing that is to bring respons and space into the class.

     
    • BODARD Gabriel
      BODARD Gabriel
      2013-06-27

      Do you think we should break these off into three separate FRs then, to make it easier for us to enact one or two of them even while still debating the third?

      1. add <respons> and <space> to att.responsibility (perhaps with @cert deleted, if people care)
      2. add @source to att.responsibility
      3. make @resp and @source more globally available (i.e. this ticket)
       
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2013-07-09

    I'm of the opinion that we should resist with an iron will making anything that is not truly global att.global.*

    I have not been convinced that @resp and @source are truly global.

    I agree with suggestion 1 and 2 above by Gabby. I also think there are a large number of elements which may be suitable candidates for membership in att.responsibility.... But I don't want att.responsibility to be global.

    -James

     
  • Two use cases have come up for Syriaca.org's Syriac Gazetteer in which @source on <desc> and <note> would have been useful: I wanted to include (1) descriptions of a place taken verbatim from a print source, but a print source which is not in general being encoded in this TEI, and (2) notes about a place taken from a print source, etc. For case (1), I embedded the <desc> element within the <place> element, but since <desc> cannot take a @source attribute, I had to wrap the description text within a <quote> within the <desc>, putting @source on the <quote> element. For case (2), I could have wrapped a <quote> within a <note>, but instead I gave up and used <desc>/<quote> instead, since <note> cannot take a @source attribute.

    We would also like to use, parallel to our <desc> element taken from a print source, a <desc> element generated for our project by an editor. This would require adding @resp to <desc> or perhaps to <quote>, but I don't think having <desc>/<quote>/@resp makes sense for our project, since if the description is created de novo it is not quoting some other authority outside of the text.

    Thank you all for discussing these issues!

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-07-09

    From Sylvia N. Stoyanova:

    "I am encoding the transcription of a manuscript with thousands of internal references, some of which are specific, others less so and some have mistakes by the author. Working with various editors on identifying the most precise destination of links, I need to add the feature of "resp" to attribute proper responsibility for the suggested links, but "resp" cannot be currently contained within a "ref" element or any link describing element that I know of. I also need to add "resp" to marginal notes and other editorial markings (it has worked for dates so far)."

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-07-09

    @James: what is the basis of your objection? It sounds simply dogmatic to me. We have a bunch of global attributes already, some very useful, some not. @resp and @source are needed all over the place, and it's difficult to imagine an element where there is no use-case for one or other of them. Do you imagine simply expanding the att.responsibility class steadily over years until it eventually includes virtually all the elements in the schema?

     
  • On 9 Jul 2013, at 23:56, Martin Holmes martindholmes@users.sf.net wrote:

    @James: what is the basis of your objection? It sounds simply dogmatic to me. We have a bunch of global attributes already, some very useful, some not. @resp and @source are needed all over the place, and it's difficult to imagine an element where there is no use-case for one or other of them. Do you imagine simply expanding the att.responsibility class steadily over years until it eventually includes virtually all the elements in the schema?

    I'm with Martin. The global attributes already have loads of mad things in linking which get very little use. if @resp and @source were in a module,
    they'd be easy to turn on and off.
    --
    Sebastian Rahtz
    Director (Research) of Academic IT
    University of Oxford IT Services
    13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2013-07-10

    Sebastian: existing bad decisions are not an argument

    Martin: it is slightly dogmatic on principle because I think any global attribute additions should be strongly resisted and only implemented if truly necessary because making global attributes that aren't really needed globally is a bad idea.

    I feel that in some cases, say publicationStmt and various other metadata, we have ways to say the source or the resp (such as sourceDesc).

    I'm not saying that you can't come up with examples... just that doing it this way might not be what we want to recommend in all cases. And if I have this unease then I think devil's advocates should step forward... just in case we are making a mistake because global attributes are/should be hard to change!

     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2013-07-10

    I don't have very strong feeling about whether att.resposibility should become part of global or just be very prevalent, so long as it's available in all the places we need it.

    I do feel more strongly about the need for symmetry between @resp and @source (I'm already doing things that I couldn't do without @source on <lem> and <rdg>, for example). I'm going to create tickets for (1) and (2), above, and I'll link to them from here when I've done so.

     
    • BODARD Gabriel
      BODARD Gabriel
      2013-07-10

      Tickets added as Bug 589 and FR 465.

      (We can now focus in this ticket on arguing about how global or otherwise att.responsibility should be. ;-) )

       
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