#337 Add idno to person (maybe also place)

GREEN
closed-accepted
5
2012-06-20
2011-11-22
Laurent Romary
No

I suggest to add idno to the content model of person (and place) in order to be able to refer to authority identifiers associated with a given person. Such identifiers must be necessarily typed, so that they can be filtered out, and a @ref on person would not suffice. An simple example is provided below.

<person xml:id="p0042">
<persName>
<forename>Friedrich Heinrich</forename>
<nameLink>von der</nameLink>
<surname>Hagen</surname>
</persName>
<birth>
<date when="1780-02-19">19. Februar 1780</date>
<placeName>Schmiedeberg (Uckermark)</placeName>
</birth>
<death>
<date when="1856-06-11">11. Juni 1856</date>
<placeName>Berlin</placeName>
</death>
<sex value="1" />
<occupation>Deutscher Philologe</occupation>
<idno type="PND">118829130</idno>
</person>

http://www.literatur.hu-berlin.de/berliner-intellektuelle-1800-1830/
http://www.zde.uni-wuerzburg.de/tei_mm_2011/abstracts/abstracts_posters/#c255793

Discussion

  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2011-11-22

    The implementation would consist in adding idno to model.personPart. If council is OK, I oculd make a try at implementing this.

     
  • Lou Burnard
    Lou Burnard
    2012-03-18

    Seems appropriate, though I suppose some might argue that this kind of identifier is just another kind of name. (cf debate on msIdentifier part).

     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2012-03-20

    A very hearty +1 to adding idno to both person and place.

    This sort of identifier would be especially useful when it could be expressed as some kind of URI, such as a reference to the LGPN or Pleiades, rather than merely an analogue reference number that can be looked up in a print prosoography or gazzetteer, but the principle is the same. The identifier is a statement of the identity (more than just an appellation) of this person/place in a standard work in the discipline.

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2012-04-15

    I agree this also seems like a good idea (that idno should be added and be repeatable). If added to person it should also be added to place, org, and event. (As all of those can have idnos)

    -j

     
  • Peter Stadler
    Peter Stadler
    2012-04-17

    As I stated on TEI-L I wonder if idno shouldn't be child of nym and (the new) object as well. Admittedly I can't provide an use case but I guess there are established id systems out there for things like that ...

     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2012-05-14

    Yes, object too. Not so sure about nym, but I imagine there are onomastica out there with canonical identifiers? In which case yes.

    BTW, this ticket was accepted by the TEI Council at the last face-to-face meeting in April. I'm assigning this to Laurent as agreed. (Hopefully we can get it implemented before the next schema release at the end of May.)

     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2012-05-14

    • assigned_to: nobody --> romary
    • status: open --> open-accepted
     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2012-05-14

    Now that I think about it, LGPN and Pleiades both have name identifiers as well as person and place (respectively) don't they? In which case idno in <nym> is absolutely appropriate.

     
  • Lou Burnard
    Lou Burnard
    2012-05-15

    Do identifiers of this kind never change over time? Surely it's possible for something to be referred to by one canonical identifier at one time and by another much later? In which case, either <idno> needs to be made a member of att.datable (which will cause confusion amongst bibliographers) or maybe <xxxName> is a better choice after all (as suggested below)?

     
  • BODARD Gabriel
    BODARD Gabriel
    2012-05-15

    If you are claiming that this is a unique and permanent identifier for the person or place to which you are referring, then no, it should never change (any more than the unique and permanent identifier for, say, a manuscript should ever change). Pretty sure LGPN commits to keeping this id stable. The whole Linked Data concept would collapse without this.

    I'm not saying that in the real world they never do (albeit rarely), but if so that's the sad failing of the real world, not the case that this is any less an <idno> in exactly the same sense we use it in msIdentifier, bibliography, etc. I suppose a person's DNB number might change between one edition of the Dictionary an another, but in that case you'd still use the old DNB number, perhaps with @type="DNB-1st-ed" or something. Likewise a Bodleian MS id might change if the manuscript is acquired by the BL, but you could still cite its Bod id alongside it's BL id in future.

    In short, I don't see the need for the element holding this identifier to be datable. (Typeable and repeatable, yes, but it already is most other places it's used.)

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2012-06-14

    Ann Arbor Face 2 Face meeting agreed that <idno> should be added to person, place, org, and be repeatable in all of these.

    We wondered if Laurent would be willing to implement this?

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2012-06-14

    • milestone: 871209 --> GREEN
     
  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2012-06-19

    The content models for place and org already look quite complex. Would it not be good to have something more homogeneous (model.org/placePart)

     
  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2012-06-19

    idno added to model.personPart at rev 10560
    can someone check?

     
  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2012-06-20

    Changes to person, org and place made per revision 10573

     
  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2012-06-20

    • status: open-accepted --> closed-accepted