#260 <quote><floatingText>

GREEN
closed-accepted
Brett Barney
5
2011-12-02
2010-11-10
Kevin Hawkins
No

Section 4.3.2 (#DSFLT) discusses floating texts and gives an example of a frame story that contains stories within the frame story. This seems to me to be different from a situation where the frame story *quotes* a whole text. I bring this up because this section ends with the following: "The floatingText element should only be used for complete texts which form a part of the text being encoded. Where a character in one narrative quotes from some other text or narrative, fully or in part, the quote element discussed in 3.3.3 Quotation should be used instead." I read this as saying that, if you quote an entire text, you should not use <quote> with a nested <floatingText> element but use only <quote>. It seems to me that it would be ontologically correct to include both <quote> and the nested <floatingText>, even in the examples given -- after all, a character in one narrative quotes from some other text or narrative, no?

An additional reason to make it clear that you should use <quote><floatingText> even when quoting entire texts is that, if you use only <quote> (as above), you are limited by the content model of <quote> in what structure you can tag within the quoted passage.

Discussion

  • Lou Burnard
    Lou Burnard
    2011-03-20

    One way of looking at the difference is that <floatingText> is for intrusions into the structure, whereas <quote> is for passages which fit within the structure. They have different content models as a consequence. There's no reason why a floating text should not contain quotes of course, but the reverse does not make much sense to me, except for the rather special case where one is citing the Guidelines discussion of this point!

     
  • Lou Burnard
    Lou Burnard
    2011-03-20

    • milestone: --> 871209
     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-03-23

    cf #3106834 on a similar point

     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-03-23

    Lou wrote, "There's no reason why a floating text should not contain quotes of course,
    but the reverse does not make much sense to me, except for the rather
    special case where one is citing the Guidelines discussion of this point!"

    I think we can all agree that a <floatingText> could contain more than one <quote> within it. That was never in debate. And I'm not sure what exactly the special case is and how it matters for "the reverse", which I take to refer to is putting <floatingText> within <quote>. Let me restate my problem with section 4.3.2.

    It seems to me that if "a character in one narrativce quotes from some other text or narrative" IN FULL, then you should have a single <floatingText> within <quote>. However, section 4.3.2 currently says to use only <quote>, which constrains the types of elements you would use here.

     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-04-17

    Discussion at the Council meeting in Chicago and on tei-council since then has yielded a proposal to replace the final paragraph in section 4.3.2 (#DSFLT) with the following:

    The semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from somewhere external to the current text. The <floatingText> element, on the other hand, is used whenever the richer content model it provides is required to support mark up of a document or part of a document which is presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an inclusion might resemble an enclosure or an attachment, or an embedded story within a framing narrative, or simply appear as an explicit quotation. Hence the two elements may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear within a <quote>, and may also of course include a <quote> as part of its own structure.

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2011-04-17

    Actually, I prefer Lou's original here. I think we were trying to make the point (among others) that if a floatingText is a quotation, it should appear within a quote tag, and the original "appear within an explicit quotation" makes this a little clearer. I may be misunderstanding the import of your emendation, though.

     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-04-17

    Martin refers to the penultimate proposal for that paragraph, which had "or appear within an explicit quotation" instead of "or simply appear as an explicit quotation" as in my most recent comment. I think Lou was speaking about the <floatingText> element, whereas I was speaking about a floating text.

    But Martin is right that Lou's version more explicitly avoids the confusion that led to this ticket in the first place. Since it's not clear whether "the inclusion" refers to <floatingText> or a floating text, let's go with Lou's version but keep "simply" since this is the most basic and common type of floating text and since it makes the sentence easier to read. That is, here's our text to replace the final paragraph in section 4.3.2
    (#DSFLT):

    The semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from somewhere
    external to the current text. The <floatingText> element, on the other
    hand, is used whenever the richer content model it provides is required to
    support mark up of a document or part of a document which is presented as
    a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an inclusion might resemble an
    enclosure or an attachment, or an embedded story within a framing
    narrative, or simply appear within an explicit quotation. Hence the two
    elements may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear within a
    <quote>, and may also of course include a <quote> as part of its own
    structure.

     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-04-18

    Further discussion on tei-council yields the following two paragraphs to replace the final paragraph of in section 4.3.2 (#DSFLT):

    It is important to distinguish the use of <floatingText> and <quote>. Whereas the semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from somewhere external to the current text, <floatingText> does not imply this. The <floatingText> element is simply used whenever the richer content model it provides is required to support mark up of a text or part of a text which presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an "inclusion" might consist of a text that is perceived as external to the document, such as a letter, enclosure, or attachment, but it might equally well be a text that is not external to the document, such as the text of a "musical number" that is clearly set off from its surrounding text in the libretto of an opera.

    The two elements may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear within a <quote> (when a text wich rich internal structure is quoted at length), and <floatingText> may also include one or more <quote> elements as part of its own structure, just like any text.

     
  • Lou Burnard
    Lou Burnard
    2011-04-24

    Sorry, I have a problem with this latest version. It explicitly introduces the case of an embedded musical number, for which we have another proposal on the table (but not yet discussed). I fear we have to defer this until we have looked at 3147225

     
  • Laurent Romary
    Laurent Romary
    2011-04-26

    Since the reference to musical numbers is purely illustrative, this should not differ the resolution of this ticket, could be replace by "structured legal statement" for instance.

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2011-11-08

    • assigned_to: nobody --> kshawkin
    • milestone: 871209 --> 686585
    • status: open --> open-accepted
     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2011-11-08

    • milestone: 686585 --> GREEN
     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2011-11-08

    Since 3147225 has been resolved to handle musical numbers, our new version (with some additional copyediting done here and more to be done by Brett) is:

    It is important to distinguish the use of <floatingText> and <quote>.
    Whereas the semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from
    somewhere external to the current text, <floatingText> does not imply this.
    The <floatingText> element is simply used whenever the richer content model
    it provides is required to support mark up of a text or part of a text
    which is presented as a discrete "inclusion" within the text. Such an
    inclusion might consist of a text that is perceived as external to the
    text, such as a letter, enclosure, or attachment.

    The two elements may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear
    within a <quote> (when a text wich rich internal structure is quoted at
    length), and <floatingText> may also include one or more <quote> elements
    as part of its own structure, just like any text.

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2011-11-20

    • assigned_to: kshawkin --> brettbarney
     
  • Brett Barney
    Brett Barney
    2011-12-01

    My proposal:

    It is important to distinguish between the uses of <floatingText> and <quote>. Whereas the semantics of <quote> suggest that its content derives from a source external to the current text, <floatingText> carries no such implication and is simply used whenever the richer content model that it provides is required to support the markup of a part of a text that is presented as a discrete "inclusion." In some cases, such inclusions could be considered external (e.g., enclosures, attachments, etc.); often however, as in the examples above, the included text bears no signs of emanating from outside.

    <floatingText> and <quote> may be used in combination. For a text with rich internal structure that is quoted at length, <floatingText> might be used within <quote>. Also, like a unitary text, <floatingText> may include one or more quoted sections, each marked with a <quote> element.

     
  • Brett Barney
    Brett Barney
    2011-12-02

    • status: open-accepted --> closed-accepted